“Shopkeepers were being killed, only sons were being killed, isolated farmers were being killed…”

I haven’t seen this film, which was commissioned and produced by the Orange Order, but I am told it is very quiet and very powerful. This trailer contains just a few stories that are being told of the loss of a community, that might otherwise go untold…

Lest we be too careful to hear some stories and too careless to hear others…

, ,

  • Robin Keogh

    great so what has that got to do with me?

  • Robin Keogh

    If you dont know your history fella there is little i can do about it

  • Robin Keogh

    Just one piece of the puzzle, giggle

  • Robin Keogh

    I think its unfair co call the DUP sinners. They are not all crazy

  • Robin Keogh

    I think both him and charles expressed regret about the past

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Spot on CB.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    The programme has a very distinct Northern Irish look to it, there are certain traits to Northern Irish documentaries that I haven’t seen elsewhere.

    It looks very well made.

  • mickfealty

    Why? In order to negotiate the prejudice of others? At this time and this stage they really shouldn’t have to.

  • peepoday

    The true sectarian nature of the republican movement is often forgotten.This abandoned homestead bears witness to a failed attempt to unite Ireland.

  • mickfealty

    Without wanting to tempt fate, I’m pleased that even such a limited offering has evoked a generally civil response.

    Can I just ask (purely speculatively) if we were able to organise one with the OO, who would be interested in coming to a public showing in Belfast?

  • Spike

    Yes Mick, you are correct they shouldn’t but they do and they still portray the outlook of north Armagh in the 1790’s. 200 years and counting of the OO and we are still dealing with the farce of ardoyne and other such places which highlights their mindset. Thats the rotten thing here-its like the ku klux klan making a documentary on the innocent victims of white people displanted from an area close to a black ghetto-of course its a correct human story but the fact THEY produce it then taints the whole programme…..and that is unfortunate

  • Turgon

    You may have no idea but I (and others) know well who he was. My late father in law was friendly with Douglas Deering. Mr. Deering was Brethren and completely apolitical. His JP title was I am pretty sure an honorary thing from the past. I know people who are JPs and it conferrers little or no actual function.

    Almost all Brethren stay out of politics: as I believe the Deering family did. Mr. Deering’s “crime” was to be the last Protestant shop keeper in Rosslea. Rosslea had always been a majority Catholic village but there were a few Protestants especially in the farms around it. There was a concerted campaign to get the Prods out of Rosslea and the surrounding farmland. A similar thing happened at the exact opposite end of the county in Garrison.

    But by all means report that you know nothing about it and by all means try to imply was a “legitimate target”. However, as is said in the film the facts of what happened need to be remembered.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    True enough, I can’t take issue with what you say but, I do have to ask:

    Do you not see ANY irony in (rightly) highlighting the sectarianism of a group that sought to expel people of a certain religion from a part of Ulster whilst using the moniker ‘peepoday’?

    Apologies if I’ve misinterpreted the meaning of your name, it just appears to me to allude to the ‘peep o day boys’ who had a hand in expelling thousands of people of a certain religion from a part of Ulster.

    If this is just a coincidence then please ignore my question.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Depends when it is, but hypothetically speaking “yes”.

  • Turgon

    AG,

    This is not my usual attack on you but I do not think the use of a name from hundreds of years ago is especially relevant. You might equally complain that a fundamentalist like me is using a name of a mythical eleven king created by a Roman Catholic academic 100 years or so ago.

    We had a unionist commentator in the distant past called criumh which is I believe Irish for worm; another called Cushy Glenn (a highwayman); more recently son of strongbow. We all use odd names (yours is pretty odd). I think if we want to have sensible debate objecting to the names people use here or reading anything into them is merely going to produce more red herrings.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Tmitch57, the Hague conventions have sections as I remember referring to the treatment of Francs-tireurs who bear distinguishing signs as opposed to others not marking themselves out as belligerents. This is why the French Resistance in action display armbands in old photographs. While Natioinal Liberation movements in the third world claimed that they were released from these conventions, the local situation here found us with insurgents all too ready to claim the prisoner of war protections that the conventions required of belligerents, while ignoring the requirements that acceptance of the conventions would have placed on them, such as the armband issue. Its called having your cake and eating it.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    You know Turgon, that’s a very valid point.

    In retrospect it looks like petty hair-splitting.

    Touché.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    On a grass roots level a lot of land “changed hands” without title. A friend tried to buy a house in west Cork and found that the vendor had no title either to the house or the land it stood on. The genuine owner was a small farming family forced into exile in 1922, eighty years before the legal search. All over the south estates are farmed by local farmers who simply began to use the land when the owners were forced out. One elderly couple I know, the husband a retired British general, spoke of their children visiting ancestral lands in the 1990s. They could not go themselves, as both were “known.”

    But its a mixed picture, where intense idealism also contributed, something I’ve suggested over on another posting, in part agreeing with Mr Yeats that this abstract idealism may not have been that much of a good thing:

    http://sluggerotoole.com/2015/05/20/in-prince-charles-visit-there-is-richer-significance-than-a-handshake-with-gerry-adams/#comment-2037624813

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    As per Turgon’s comment please ignore my previous question.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    I’d be most interested.

  • Sprite

    If anyone is in any doubt that Republicans conducted a sectarian campaign against border unionists I would just ask them to look into the Darkley Church Hall massacre and explain how that could be construed as an attack on the British war machine.

  • Jag

    You’re talking about the 1998 referendum which saw the removal of the Irish constitutional claim on NI? That being the case, the killings being discussed here are antecedent and consequently not relevant.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Thank you, CB, for your endorsement. For me the same rules apply in this case as I apply in all other cases, both in history and in politics, a hard objective adherence to truth.

    My own rule in this is that of St Just:

    “Je ne suis d’aucune faction, je les combattrai toutes.”

    This roughly translates as, “I do not subscribe to the beliefs of any faction, I will struggle against them all”

  • Jag

    ” Mr. Deering was Brethren and completely apolitical. ”

    What do you mean by “Brethern” – I keep hearing that little chap in north Belfast routinely complaining about letting his “brethern” go home. Is it an Orange Order thing? And if not, are you uncomfortable with it being used in an OO context?

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Jag, “Brethern” is used by a number of sects such as “Plymouth Brethern” and a number of Methodist groups. It may also be used to describe fellow members in both the Orange Institution and Craft Freemasony. I believe that Turgon was using it to state, not that Mr Deering was a member of a fraternal organisation, but that he was simply an active member of an evangelical body of believers, and someone who did not engage in any form of politics. This is something I know to be a distinctive characteristic of the Exclusive Brethern, who strictly shun any worldly interest that might distract them from the service of God. I have no wish to misrepresent Turgon and hope he will quite properly correct me if I am misleading you.

    Relations between church communities are very uneven along the border. In the Crossmaglen area, where some Anglican cousins of mine farm, the small C of I community and the Catholiic community have excellent relations, but in other parts such as Turgon describes, even the act of abstaining from any political activity on the part of Protestant community members does not ensure friendly relations.

  • Jag

    Like what? “we were reacting to gunfire and nail bomb attacks when we opened fire and killed 14 innocent civilians including the wounded and those assisting the wounded”, that sort of justification? I can feel your outrage CM, I truly can.

  • tmitch57

    No, I’m referring to the December 1973 Sunningdale declaration.

  • Jag

    You can’t unilaterally declare the removal of the constitutional claim on Northern Ireland, that was ultimately done by referendum in 1998.

    And in any event, unionists brought down Sunningdale within a year.

  • Turgon

    Jag, Mr Deering attended a Gospel Hall. Although not all of them use the term Brethren, most outside the Gospel Hall movement would call them Brethren or Plymouth Brethren. They have nothing whatsoever to do with the Orange Order – most Brethren disapprove of the OO and I know of no member of both organisations (Orange Institution and Gospel Hall / Brethren Assembly).

    As I said Mr. Deering was wholly apolitical and was murdered as Chingford Man has stated because he was the last Protestant shopkeeper in Rosslea. Many Brethren (as in Gospel Hall) do not even regard themselves as Protestants. Unfortunately for Mr. Deering that was not the way the IRA saw it.

  • Turgon

    submariner, I do not have any figures. A look on the Sutton Index (though it is a flawed database both factually and logistically) suggests 55 Catholic members of the security forces from NI killed (that discounts any Catholic soldiers from GB) but clearly some may have been killed by organisations other than the IRA and their hangers on.

    Certainly I have known relatives of Catholic RUC officers who stated that their relatives were always under particular threat by the IRA.

    Grim as it would be there is probably useful work to be done looking at that issue: if one wanted to do it I suspect Lost Lives would be a good place to start.

  • cu chulainn

    The Orange Order is entirely supportive of the plantation process that brought those members to Fermanagh in the first place. If they came out and apologised for that then it would be a help towards reconciliation.

  • Jag

    This person isn’t at all familiar to me, and is one of the less prominent victims of the conflict. I had to refer to the Cain website to even get the basic details above.

    Can you recall what the IRA said at the time when it claimed responsibility for the killing?

  • submariner

    Thanks, i have had a look on the CAIN site as you have suggested but it gives little info as to whether those killed were deliberately targeted as such or were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. I had a close friend murdered by the IRA who was a Police officer but he was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time and was not targeted due to his being catholic, i wonder if maybe lost lives would provide any more back ground as you suggest.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    “And whataboutery of the year goes to…”

    Every migration of people begins somewhere, European history is dotted with examples of people being ‘planted’ from somewhere else:

    “Well, if the fecking Ruthenians just stayed put in the first place…”

  • submariner

    AG i think your question is a valid one. The choosing of a moniker i think can give an insight into ones thinking as it is deliberately chosen by the poster.I mean if some one was to post under the moniker of say Provo boy or Klansman it would be reasonable for others to form an opinion based on the choosing of the moniker and the subject matter those persons decide to post or give a view on.

  • Tochais Siorai

    Jag, when you’re in a hole……….stop digging.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    This would be an excellent academic topic.

    Selfishly speaking, I often find myself having to ‘explain’ the NI situation to foreigners who have simply swallowed Jag’s ‘collaborator’ nonsense hook, line and sinker.

    The local ‘complication’ factors and ‘inconveniences’ are often overlooked.

    As much as I take pride in dispelling the ‘IRA – freedom fighters’ bollocks/nonsense I admit to being ignorant of the plight of the border Protestants and indeed the catholic members of the security forces (who were a terrible inconvenience to SF propaganda and therefore had to be dealt with accordingly).

    There are so many social tapestries in NI that the nauseating simplifications of ‘the war’ are simply hokum.

    Axe grinding or pike sharpening are more layers of complication.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Could everybody stop making valid points please, it’s freaking me out….

  • SeaanUiNeill

    AG, Cu Chulainn’s comment perfectly mirrors the implicit demand in the work of Ian Adamson that the Gael should perhaps apologise to his displaced “Cruthin”, and respect their right to return the “favour”. He would have us believe that the Cruthin finally “returned”f rom Scottish exile as those settlers in the Plantation.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Adamson

    The Plantation is real history rather than Pseudo-history, and all history needs to be clearly and honestly remembered, its atrocities recognised, but to expect those who did not play any part in an action to apologise for the violence others, really? Better that all should strive to discover how we can respectfully live with one another until such now artificial divisions, and those very abstract hatreds they encourage, become imperceptable.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    What is really needed on issues such as this, SM, is real fieldwork undertaken by someone that those involved can fully trust to handle their testimony honestly and objectively. Any generalised evaluation of issues such as this always will “lie” in some important way, and the real meaning of such murders is only clear in a full and particular examination of cases. It is only from such a detailed investigation that any real inferences may be drawn, no matter how obvious the issues may seem to some.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Thank you Turgon, for sharing the details of this. Such vivid and particular instances throw a strong land much needed ight on the evasive generalisations, the sheer cant, under which the actual significance some of these killings is all too often obscured.

  • Starviking

    I’d be interested, but living at the other end of Eurasia makes attendance unlikely.

  • Jag

    You’d make a lousy gold prospector Tochais!

    I just wanted to find out further detail about the circumstances of the killing. It’s distasteful of course, but at this distance, we should be able to discuss these events clinically and “last shopkeeper in Rosslea” has the same questionable aura as “mother of ten”.

  • Starviking

    I recall at least two catholic police officers shot dead leaving mass in Armagh City.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Actually Jag, he was quite a prominent victim in the Fermanagh area. He was murdered on 12th May 1977, so you may find something from around that date in the Linen Hall Library’s Northern Ireland Political Collection. I’d seriously value knowing what statement was issued in justification myself. I have family in south Fermanagh and anecdotally, there was little beyond his possible activity as a JP that could have been argued in such a statement. His shop had already been bombed on four occasions at the time of his death I think. He was certainly generally considered as someone clearly without those connections usual in justifications of border killings, if the version I’ve heard is correct.

    You might also check the academic journal “Terrorism and Political Violence”, No 22, issue 3 (June 2010) where Henry Patterson’s research, described in “Sectarianism Revisited” mentions the killing. It is available at the McClay Library.

  • Jag

    Hi Seaan, there were some unusually gruesome and questionable killings in the Border areas by groups who took on new names but were widely believed to have been the IRA (if you study the patterns, they were tit-for-tat killings which mirrored killings of Catholics by groups believed to have been linked to British army and suchlike).

    However, according to Cain, this killing was claimed by the IRA, and it was usual, wasn’t it, that it would issue a statement which would make reference to a justification.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Thanks jag, for that information. When I was researching the 1688/9 civil war, I was walked over the old coach road that ran through the centre of the Newtownbutler battlefield, and just over the ridge Justin McCarthy’s regiments defended was the farmyard where the “pitchfork” murders occurred. My own local “fieldwork” brought up many of the kinds of story you mention.

    I have family near the border there and in south Armagh and the story I heard at the time was that the killing was argued on the JP issue. But Mr Deering was presented to me as someone who was genuinely thought of both around Rosslea and at Clones and Newtownbutler as “unfairly targeted”. Not that I’d recognise issues of fair and unfair targeting myself. I’m a pacifist, involved at one time in the PD, who believes that all of the violence from whatever side was a tragic misdirection of energies, and am trying to argue as such and not in support of any faction, as I’ve tried to suggest in my St. Just quote in reply to CB.

  • PeterBrown

    A number were specifically targeted at mass – wasn’t the recent radio programme about the Ballyhackamore GAA team concluded with the recounting of the death of the prisoner officer member down the country (Clogher?) who was shot leaving his relatives wedding with his family – presumably this sent a strong message to anyone else in the congregation thinking of a similar career?

  • PeterBrown

    A definition which makes every Sinn Fein voter a legitimate target as well (but thankfully its a definition only you want to use)

  • MalikHills

    I fail to grasp your point, the thread title refers to the fact that the victims of the IRA were shop keepers, farmers etc. ie were tragetted for that reason rather than because of the uniform they wore on a part-time basis.

    I believe there may be an element of truth in that claim.

    My point was that equally the victims of the loyalist murder gangs in North Armagh, were neither random Catholics picked off the street (as was the case in Belfast) and nor were they members of political or paramilitary organisations.

    Most often they were middle class or aspirational Catholics running a business or building a new home and who aroused the envy of the psychopaths in the Glennane Gang (comprising part-time and full-time British soldiers and policemen) who targeted them.

    You want an example? Ok, off hand I give you Marian Bowen, whose husband was building a new house. Marian went with her two brothers to do a bit of plumbing in the house, they were blown to smithereens by a 70lb bomb planted in a hot press.

    There was one other victim of this horrible attack, and sensitive readers might want to stop reading at this point. When Marian’s body was examined by a doctor he ordered police to return to the scene and conduct a more thorough search, in order to pick up the body of the eight-month baby which had been ripped from her womb in the blast.

    For the avoidance of any doubt, neither Marian or either of her two brothers, was a member of any terrorist organisation and presumably neither was the unborn child, they all just happened to have the misfortune of being uppity Catholics building a nice new home for themselves.

    I hope this clears things up.

  • eiregain

    Describing those (hypothetical) people as GAA members before republicans is disingenuous and ignorant and also based on nothing. Cue bonor back to sectarian corpse counting , good man urself!

  • eiregain

    Your displaying a complete lack of knowledge and understanding. Keep going it’s fun to hear your skewed and lobsided version of history

  • Cue Bono

    Sorry, but do you apply the same rules to OO members, or is it only the GAA who get off the hook in your world?

  • Cue Bono

    Meaningless drivel from Adams. One day he is regretting the past and the next day he is boasting about it and celebrating it with black hatted goons.

  • Cue Bono

    Recognition that Sinners are crazy. Progress at last.

  • Cue Bono

    I know my history quite well. Unlike you I didn’t learn it from An Phoblacht through the bottom of a beer glass.

  • Cue Bono

    He shares the same values that you espouse when you hit the bottle.

  • Cue Bono

    So it is reasonable to form an opinion on you relating to you hiding underwater for months at a time. With absolutely no idea of what is going on in the world above you. Figures.