Spreading the word in the Irish language requires a new beginning

I thought I’d tiptoe into the minefield of the “Irish Language Act”, an area where the massed ranks of persuadables risk getting wasted by the zealots, but here goes. Concubhar is right, there should be a mature discussion. I’m one of those who shrugged off Gregory Campbell’s leaden humour and hoped that most language supporters felt secure enough to do likewise. I can be as mildly irritated by Sinn Fein’s little chants of  Irish phrases as I am  at one with President MaAleese’s “wow” at the Queen’s intro in Irish. So cards on the table. The further spread of Irish would be culturally and socially enriching but it needs a radical rethink. The political cases for the Celtic languages in all four  jurisdictions of these islands reached a dead end long ago.

The aim of the Council of Europe’s Charter of Minority Languages are stated is “to protect and promote regional and minority languages as a threatened aspect of Europe’s cultural heritage and on the other hand to enable speakers of a regional or minority language to use it in private and public life. Its overriding purpose is cultural.”

The Charter  offers a choice of “68 concrete undertakings in 7 areas of public life”,  which seems pretty wide to me, far wider that the current non-debate allows.  Is it not obvious that furthering the use of Irish in the courts and official documents can conflict with the Charter’s  “overriding purpose ” which is cultural?

I take no pleasure in the tales of decline and poor return on investment. I assume the following  information is more or less accurate but I’m resigned  to challenge on the balanced interpretation.

I note that in the Republic, while Irish was dropped as a qualification for wider public service decades ago, it remains a university qualification for admission. Despite this according to the 2011 census 94,000 people reported using Irish as a daily language outside of the education system, and 1.3 million reported using it at least occasionally in or out of school – slightly up on the census of 2006.

In 2010 the National Assembly of Wales created a new system of placing duties on bodies to provide services through the medium of Welsh and created a Welsh Language Commissioner with strong enforcement powers to protect the rights of Welsh speakers to access services through the medium of the language.

In Wales the 2011 UK Census counted 3.1 million residents of Wales. Of these, 73% (2.2 million) reported having no Welsh language skills. Of the residents of Wales, 25% of the population are not from the country. Of the residents of Wales aged three and over, 19% (562,000) reported being able to speak Welsh, and 77% of these were able to speak, read, and write the language (making 431,000 – 15% of the total population).[15] This can be compared with the 2001 Census, in which 20.8% of the population (582,000) reported being able to speak Welsh.

In Scotland where Gaelic has competition as an indigenous language, only 58,000 people identify themselves as Gaelic speakers.  The Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act of 2005 established the Gaelic development body, Bòrd na Gàidhlig, (BnG),  to secure “the status of the Gaelic language as an official language of Scotland commanding equal respect to the English language and to promote the use and understanding of Gaelic.”.

Who really believes these pieties will produce the desired results?

Language policy is rooted in long outmoded nineteenth century nationalist dogma when so called minority languages were banned or restricted by nineteenth century empires and twentieth century majoritarianism in unstable successor states. As has been obvious for nearly a century, Irish freedom was won without achieving language supremacy or even equality, the exception in Europe.  What then are the drivers of language equality other than nostalgia and unrealisable cultural  distinctiveness ? Just about the worst way to encourage the use of Irish is to try to make it a compulsory choice in official documents. People can hardly be bothered to read them in English.

In Northern Ireland,  everyone knows that a Sinn Fein sponsored Bill stands no chance if it tries to import the use of Irish into official documentation and the courts without the consent of all parties. There is no “rights” case that will railroad it through the courts. The nationalist parties must be by now inured to the fact that that Westminster will never pass such an Act round the back of the Assembly.

We need to start again. As I’m sure Irish medium schools prove every day,  modern learning methods do not need official documents as learning texts.  The use of Irish in not negligible. There is a firm foundation to work on and Protestant and unionist goodwill that should not be embarrassed or squandered. It’s  cool among the Anne Enright bourgeoisie and their northern equivalents. Dual language signage is agreeable ( dual mind you. I had to tell a Dublin driver in Glenties last year that for Dungloe in the Donegal Gaeltacht, follow the monoglot signs for an Clochan Liath).

Every immigrant knows that the best way to pick up a language is to use it practically. Immigrants embarrass  the natives with their  proficiency. I’d favour every primary school offering Irish conversation with partner schools across the divide. I can think of fewer better learning experiences than to pick up the meaning, spelling and pronunciation of place and people’s names. They would  greatly add to the general appreciation of  the environment. From there enthusiasts could progress to writing and reading – and more conversation in both languages.

An Irish language Act requires depoliticisation and cross community support. Anything else is just another ploy in the politics of grievance and deal-making that we badly need to leave behind.

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  • Morpheus

    Strange question, I pay for the class. What has that got to do with the price of butter?

  • SeaanUiNeill

    I grew up just outside the town, so the lure of bright lights (and the rest) in the 1960s was just too tempting to resist. But other than the libraries I need to frequent for my writing, I could take or leave much of the rest myself, nowadays. Good coffee and Irish conversation at Cultúrlann McAdam Ó Fiaich as well, and free parking so far in the streets behind it.

  • Alan N/Ards

    ” Why is political unionism opposing one of the oldest cultural bonds between Britain and Ireland, Celticism?”
    Apart from to annoy SF, they appear to be morons?
    AG has got it right. Anything SF supports in a vocal way, they will oppose. I really long for the day that an intelligent unionist politician will show a bit of grace and indeed backbone, and use the language to reach out the hand of friendship to Irish speakers in Northern Ireland.

  • Alan N/Ards

    I got the app the other day. It’s not bad.

  • barnshee

    REPEATS

    As a former resident— Derry was always Derry to all residents
    until the republican murder gangs and their successors made an issue of

  • barnshee

    Simply pointing out that a wholly acceptable name- used with pride by everyone prod and mick- became a source of dispute – and who to blame?

  • Kevin Breslin

    Mike Nesbitt once dared to ask the question how unionism will cope with Sinn Féin when the ex-terrorists are gone? Could they manage if Sinn Féin went the way of the SDLP and SNP and political debate on the constitution became about bread and butter issues not relativisticily protecting yourself a culture defined by militant republicanism to the point when your own political culture is defined solely as the antithesis to their’s.

  • Kevin Breslin

    Sinn Féin is not going to ditch the Irish language it’s in their name. Heck the Conservatives also have an Irish name too, Toraigh or Tory, the Irish for thieves, they seem to be the one unionist party that treats the language with a sense of humour.

  • barnshee

    Some people will do anthing for a government grant

  • barnshee

    “Mike Nesbitt once dared to ask the question how unionism will cope with Sinn Féin when the ex-terrorists are gone? Could they manage if Sinn Féin went the way of the SDLP and SNP and political debate on the constitution became about bread and butter issues”

    Would be the end for the SF and the DUP and for that reason won`t happen

  • Kevin Breslin

    Not exactly true, a Sinn Féin party existed long before the DUP and the DUP were campaigning while Sinn Féin were banned from elections and had to stand as Republican Clubs. We are half a generation away from the day Sinn Féin has to lose McGuinness, Anderson, Kelly, Adams and the rest of the ex-prisioners, half a generation where the toxicity of the IRA ruling the party might actually be gone.

    DUP are in the post-Paisleyite era and they’ve had to redefine and redirect, they know they can’t rely on demagoguing against Sinn Féin for votes, the Ulster Unionists by the same merit cannot simply attack both these parties and offer nothing to promote its identity.

    With pact politics there is no means of seperating the UUP and DUP, other than which is the bigger anti-Sinn Féin party. They risk making the mistakes Better Together did by becoming Project Fear.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    But, chris, did the Poles speak Irish? Ask them and if they answer “Jestem Polski, ale ja mówi językiem Irlandzkim” you are on safe ground.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Go and see Linda, barnshee, that’s not the motive. And choosing to see it in that manner is to ignore the fact taht Linda’s interest grew from her personal knowledge of the great swell of Protestant Irish speakers in the pre-first world war period throughout the Belfast area. Check the 1911 census if you are in any doubt, its all there in black and white.

  • Concubhar O Liathain

    You’re very brave barnshee to snipe at someone from behind a nom de plume….. Linda’s bravery is of an entirely different order, though, and is about confounding the bigots and the naysayers.

  • Concubhar O Liathain

    If that’s your criterion, there are communities throughout Northern Ireland in which Irish is an everyday language. You could facilitate courts with an Irish option where there’s a Gaelscoil for instance.

  • Concubhar O Liathain

    Perhaps you’d provide us with a link to that debate….

  • Dan

    It was a genuine question.
    The consultation won’t be much use if any question is met with that type of reply.

  • Concubhar O Liathain

    I don’t think it’s a genuine question… you may as well ask if the army could survive without public funding…

  • Scots Anorak
  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Morph

    Can you imagine how much the popularity of the language would increase if the language was no longer seen as ‘Provo-speak’?

    I want to see it revived and I have offered a valid point as to one of its greatest ball & chains.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    That’s cynical to the point of stupidity Barnshee, go and meet Linda and her team and see if you can still retain that belief (assuming it is your own personal belief)

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Well Concubhar, I know I am right.

    If a marketing kingpin was assigned to this task he would survey the lay of the land, maybe in the form of a survey.

    If he obtained data that defined something as statistically significant then he would utilise the data at hand to work on certain areas for the product or campaign.

    I ( a moderate unionist) have given you an insight into how (some) people from the unionist community regard the language and SF’s use of it.

    I have been backed up on this by Alan N/ards (another moderate unionist).

    There only is a handful of us on this site, so, is it not worth considering that we may have a point?

    I see Linda’s work as fantastic and was very impressed and heartened when I went to their facilities to meet them.

    BUT now people are now mistakenly interpreting this as “well, those Protestants are doing it so there’s no issue” instead of more sensible approach of “Those protestants are now doing it, why don’t we help them along and give them the space that they need”.

    “SF is only a half baked excuse and it only really applies to the political classes

    Not half baked, a very real one.

    ” You either want to move forward and create a vibrant distinctive culture for NI, which is inclusive, or you’re going to be stuck in the primordial mud with the backwards looking unionist politicians.


    I want to move forward and have offered a suggestion for a way to facilitate this and have been told that I’m incorrect.
    Who’s really trying to move forward?

  • barnshee

    “Not exactly true”

    Au Contraire exactly true
    The collapse (Note COLLAPSE) into left right (into left- right style politics would leave some strange bedfellows–blowing SF DUP UUP etc out oft the water.

    Which is why it wont happen.

  • barnshee

    Take away the government funding and see how long it lasts.
    If its got the support claimed it will continue to flourish

  • barnshee

    A nom de plume is as a result of republican attacks physical verbal and written
    Repeats
    Take away the government funding and see how long it lasts.If its got the support claimed it will continue to flourish

  • barnshee

    ” Check the 1911 census if you are in any doubt, its all there in black and white.”

    Now check the subsequent censuses where have they all gone -and why

  • Kevin Breslin

    Where is this collapse and did UKIP, La Front National, the Five Star Movement and Alternative for Germany (AfD) get the memo?

    Simple left-right politics doesn’t really exist, not in Europe, Africa or Asia anyway.

  • barnshee

    “you may as well ask if the army could survive without public funding.”

    At lest we have an idea of how much the Army costs

    http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/apr/17/military-spending-countries-list

  • barnshee

    And exactly who wants corporation tax ?

  • Zeno

    Concubhar O Liathain

    I’d be interested in what you have learnt from two threads and somewhere around 400 posts on the subject?

  • barnshee

    UK etc are a function of immigration which is not yet an issue in NI. Politics is normally defined in a left right continuum -try centre centre left etc
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics

    A “collapse” to “normal” political division would leave The DUP and SF without their main supports (this is why SF has frantically re-badged as socialist)

  • barnshee

    TG4
    Brilliant programs starring those fluent Irish speakers
    Lorne Greene, Audie Murphy, Randolph Scott Joel McCrea etc etc
    don`t miss them

  • barnshee

    er no the County Seat was originally Coleraine -hence County Coleraine-until the seat was removed to Derry

  • Concubhar O Liathain

    Your suggestion is akin to asking the unionists to give up all the paraphenalia that they like about Britishness. It’s unrealistic. They’ve already given up on re-unification (except through consent). The notion that Sinn Féin would dissociate the party and the Irish language from one another is fanciful. If we’re to make progress, it’s on the basis of inclusion, which is to include everybody, of all stripes and colours. If SF were to give up on the Irish language in the morning, for the reasons you outlined, we’d have a unionist politician on asking whether it was permanent. I think I read something akin to that on your blog. Unionists are in government with Sinn Féin now, they have to live with that and stop making unrealistic and unenforceable demands. Despite how this reads, I am sympathetic to your point of view but it’s not going to wash.

  • John Collins

    In Scotland after 1745 when the British had to put down yet another bloody rising they came to the inclusion that the opposing forces should be encouraged to join the British Army. How did they go about this bold initiative? They allowed the use of Gallic in the ranks and named regiments in the language, encouraged the use of Kilts and the playing of Scottish martial music by the forces. This endeavour at inclusiveness helped to consolidate allegiance to the United Kingdom in what would otherwise be ardent Scots Nats. This is all documented in Linda Colleys ‘Britons-Formation of Britain’. Is there any message in this for current day NI politicians?

  • John Collins

    Thanks Gregory. I agree Robin. Like you Robin I had kind of gone Lukewarm about the Irish Language. But when I heard Greg at his old nonsense I decided to go back to my local Irish classes agus ta me ag eitilt anois, mar a dearfa.

  • John Collins

    Since when were Scotland and Wales in GB and both of thwm have Language Acts. As Mrs Thatcher once said ‘Crossmaglen is as British as Finchley’. Ths British standards should be applied

  • Keith50

    It’s a start, it will acquaint you with vocab, grammar structure and it’s fun and makes it easy to learn. I don’t have to much issues understanding the different dialects in Irish. It’s the best free resource online in my opinion.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Yes, I accept that it’s unrealistic but I find it noteworthy and will highlight it on occasion.

    Similarly, unionists would probably help the unionist cause if they backed off on their uber-Britishness, I’m sure of it in fact.

    Both groups could see the advancement of their goals by backing off a bit.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    “As so we need Ulster Irish”
    Yes, maybe even re-brand it Ulster Gaelic.
    Could maybe even try to punt Antrim Gaelic to those who claim a affection for their Scottish heritage given the similarities of the two.

  • Kevin Breslin

    The thing is there was 200 years of the union for Ulster and Ireland to try and have normal politics from a macro UK point of view and it failed miserably. You can’t address starvation in Tyrone being a backbench Whig or Labour party member when the party is more concerned with Northern England, you don’t make it easier to build businesses in Lisburn being a backbench Tory, who are looking more at the middle class middle England marginals .

    200 years of Tory and Whigs and Labour gave Ulster one elected UK peacetime cabinet minister for 4 years, (who happened to be the inventor of the Union) and over 196 years of parochialism. In barely 80 years of Irish independence Donegal part of “Southern Irish” Ulster had a deputy prime minister in the South, (who got elected out the following election of course.) and a Northern Irish born President.

    Unionist politics is the concession that parochialism is necessary in UK politics, Nationalist politics is the parochialism that allows us to get out of UK politics. Here as in Scotland, as in Wales, as in Cornwall … Heck even England’s joining in.

    The people of Northern Ireland have a better chance to vote to join Iceland, nevermind the rest of Ireland, than have anything left or right really resonate at the Treasury. And with UKIP rising in Britian and Sinn Féin growing in the Republic we’re getting joined in our parochial journey with our Strand 2 and 3 freinds.

    If 800 years ago we in Ireland could have the self determination on our land that allowed unionism, nationalism, the DUP and Sinn Féin, they would have vetoed the sectarian wars introduced by Europe and Britian and we would have a lot less sectarian fears today. The sectarian civil wars had no mandate in Ireland from planter or Gael. No denizen of Ireland voted for either the Penal Laws or the Council of Trent.

    800 years ago sectarianism was rife in every corner of Europe, the only reason that England, Spain, France, Germany could recover from it was self determination. Ireland remains the only place in Europe where an intra-Christianity dispute exists, it’s not due to Catholicism because Spain doesn’t have any, it’s not due to Protestantism because Germany doesn’t have any, and France, England and the Netherlands are fairly mixed and they don’t have any.

    Spain, France, Germany and the Netherlands still have constitutional disputes though. Spain and France had Basque militants but not sectarianism. The Basque parties have a broad political spectrum left to right.

    We don’t have sectarian politics due to Sinn Féin and the DUP, we have sectarian politics because Europe and Britian imported guns, imported sectarianism, imported their faith based power structures, their wars and economic agendas and we didn’t have any parochial voice in Ireland standing up against it.

  • Reader

    John Collins: Is there any message in this for current day NI politicians?
    Hmm, maybe a couple of Irish regiments with wolfhounds, pipes, shamrocks and Gaelic mottoes? Well, it’s worth a try.

  • Reader

    Am Ghobsmacht :
    I ( a moderate unionist) have given you an insight into how (some) people from the unionist community regard the language and SF’s use of it.

    You’re wasting your time. Bringing unionists into the Irish language movement is a pious hope. Keeping Sinn Féin onside is a core strategy.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    The point I’m making, barnshee, is that a great many people in 1911 put “Irish and English” and some protestant faith on their 1911 returns. Serious work is going on into researching this now, and it will be a strong arguement for a more open cultural attitude amongst the “Irish Unionist” generation who fought on the Somme.

    But that’s a good question about subsequent census information and what it would have told us, had the most significant yeras not been destroyed during the last war. There was no census in1919, as you may imagine. The 1926 and 1931 census returns were burnt and pulped during WWII by an administration with no concern for history, and the first census we actually have is for 1951. Accordingly the decline in Protestant interest in Irish cannot now be accurately charted.

    But what I think (correct me if I’m wrong) you are really asking is just why this decline should have occured, and what caused it. Political polarisation and the association of Irish with anti-Unionist politics, of course. But this is simply a subjective a perceeption, not a fact. Irish is a language, not a political agenda. It continued to be used and valued by those protestants who had learnt it before the Great war, those who could clearly distinguish the difference between politics and culture.

  • Concubhar O Liathain

    Fair enough. Interesting insight – thanks.

  • barnshee

    “We don’t have sectarian politics due to Sinn Féin and the DUP, we have sectarian politics because Europe and Britian imported guns, ”

    Myopic–we have sectarianism for more that one reason
    One main reason is the way the communities behave to each other.

    The 800 years claptrap fails the most simple examination

    Lets Ignore the history of “Irish” slave raiding in England for the moment-poor old St Patrick

    Some of the squabbling Irish invited in the Normans Thugs to get one over their rivals and then compound the issue by inviting more Norman thugs to remove the first.

    The “Irish” then spend hundreds of years supporting enemies of (particularly)the British Succession (Philip Of Spain, France -Louis -Napoleon) and being roundly booted up the arse for so doing. And then whining that its all those nasty Brits fault. Bleeding from self inflicted wounds shouldd elicit little sympathy

  • Concubhar O Liathain

    Irish has survived without government funding -even being banned – now it’s our turn to be supported except more effectively by the State.

  • Kevin Breslin

    The most myopic thing to do is to leave the responsibility and blame for social and religious division in the hands of two political parties.

    I’m not ignoring the Irish, I’m asking why Ireland remains the last sectarian perserve within Europe. Scotland equally had opponents of the British Succession and it can have a civilized constitutional question in 2014.

    The main reason for that problem was the ancient church and political institutionalization of sectarianism beyond the control of the people of this island that lasted far too long.

    I’m not simply blowing a nationalist trumpet here.

    Lord Castlereagh a unionist wanted Catholic Emancipation from the start, the most powerful Irish politician in British politics outside of Lord Wellington … there was no movement from the British government or the churches on this but at least the cancerous laissiez-faire approach in Ireland had some chance of being tackled then and there.

    The very Act of Union was built on the hopes of Catholic Emancipation because while it was no skin off an English politician’s neck for a civil war to erupt in Ireland, it is at the very least in the self-interest of the British Unionist.

    Likewise on Irish republicanism, for years the “Irish” did support the British succession, but then came Wolfe Tone and had cursed all succession having jurisdiction in Ireland whether Catholic or Protestant, because he saw any Defender of the Faith as being the cause of the sectarianism.

    In a strange way, a strange irony both republicanism and unionism were founded as ecumenical movement, at the foundation was the disdain for civil war, despite the fact they caused a few.

    And I have never said there wouldn’t be disputes between Britain and Ireland or that Ireland nor Catholicism has no sins. The Catholic Church really does have a lot to answer for in all parts of Ireland and in Britain as well. The Catholic Queen Mary Queen of Scots was as big a sectarian murderer to her own subjects as Cromwell was to Ireland.

    All I have stated was that if like other international disputes across Europe, people in Ireland could stand on an equal platform to those in Britain sectarianism could stayed out of Irish politics.

    The people of Ireland whether they were Normans, Angles, Gaelic, Planter, Saxon, Scot or Viking, Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, Atheist, Pagan or Jew, or born English, Scottish, Welsh, French, Spaniard, Chinese or Pole … if had they the responsibility for looking after a nation state like in other lands across the global stage institutional sectarianism is in the decline because in part due to narrow parochial self-interest rather than the historic institutional ignorance of an imperium or a universal church.

    We have to ask why there were no sectarian disputes in Alsasce and Lorainne under either German or French leadership equivalent to that of Ireland despite a similar Catholic-Protestant makeup to that of Ireland, and that being ruled by a majority Catholic nation then by a majority Protestant one made little to FA difference to society there.

  • barnshee

    “We have to ask why there were no sectarian disputes in Alsasce and Lorainne under either German or French leadership ”

    Shakes his head in disbelief
    The Alsace Lorraine dispute was “uncontaminated”– unlike NI religious grouping-could not be equated with nationality.
    NI is still Prod = Brit Mick= irish

  • Kevin Breslin

    All of Europe would have been contaminated by sectarian religious wars including that region, these nearly hold true to this day e.g. Germany is equated with the Protestant identity and Austrian can be equated with the Catholic identity.

    The early Germanic kingdoms and the French Republic with its prominent Catholic population either decontaminated the situation in terms of the sectarian connection and/or Ireland was contaminated further.

  • Kevin Breslin

    All of Europe was contaminated by sectarianism through the religious wars, not just Ireland. Religious nationalism would have existed too e.g Austria.

    What I am asking is do we know how the rest of Europe decontaminated it?

  • barnshee

    You are (wilfully?) missing the point

    Religion in Europe did not define nationalism The Dispute Alsace /Lorraine was economic as much as anything. The French did not say I am a catholic thus I am French.

    The hostility between the parties in NI suffers the “double whammy” The Northern Prod (generally) regards himself at British and thus the opportunity for the double conflict of both religious division and political division is a given.
    The reasons the religious aspect of division have lasted longer in Ireland are functions of Irish society—north and south

  • MerryWeather

    I do a lot of reading but don’t contribute much. I’m am American student and while I’ve learned a lot, I don’t understand enough to chime in. Since I’m a neutral party, I just want to clarify my understanding here. I feel that what Am Gohbsmacht is saying is only that SF stop with putting the ILA on the front lines. If there are indeed a lot of people behind the front lines learning and using the language and the interest is truly there, then the language has a better chance of enhancing culture and equality than if SF continues the battle with unionists. Much research has been done on human behavior and statistically, the stronger one asserts their position, the stronger the opposition grows. In this argument here, that is also the case. Neither side will win here…I am studying conflict resolution and the only solution is finding some common ground and starting from there. It’s a tricky and lengthy process, and not entirely impossible. It’s a collaboration and amalgamation of ideas and consideration of outside influences. I’ve watched “The End Game” videos and the number of stakeholders in creating the Good Friday Agreement was widespread and took place over a very long time. As an outsider I can pull out the valid points of each side and acknowledge the value in them. I can see how hard that is to do when the issues are of deep emotional importance. What do you think?

  • John Collins

    I think Unionists could take a look at a speech made by, of all people, Gordan Brown, prior to the Independence Referendum in Scotland. As the NATs were wrapping themselves in all things Scotch, Gordan went on the offensive. He pointed out that The Solitare, Flower of Scotland and other symbols were belonging to all Scots and not just the sole property of Scotch Nationalists. On the Nationalist side many of us who use the Irish Language would not touch Sinn Fein with a barge pole.
    In fact some of the people who played a huge part in the Celtic Revival of the late Nineteenth Century were Protestants and often Unionists to boot.

  • Kevin Breslin

    I think another thing is, that it is difficult to determine what exactly was a unionist and a nationalist in terms of pre-independence, and pre-act of union. Many in the Home Rule movement didn’t push for the full repeal so would be technical unionist, politically nationalist. Likewise pre-act of Union protestant landed gentry did oppose the Act of Union on the basis they were giving up power to Westminster were technically nationalist and anti-unionist, politically dominionist imperialists. Yet in some historical continuities you have a bit of unionism in the nationalist movement and vice versa.

    These were completly different definitions of nation and unity which brought differing ideas of nationalism and unionism.