“that’s the trojan horse of the entire republican strategy…”

From his reported comments, it would appear that Sinn Féin’s John O’Dowd, the Northern Ireland Education Minister, has, at best, a flawed “understanding” of his party president’s comments last night – and, hence, a flawed “understanding” of his party’s entire strategy.  From the UTV report

Mr O’Dowd added that his understanding of Mr Adam’s ‘Trojan horse’ comment was that it was about overcoming bigotry, sectarianism and homophobia.

He added: “There are very well fortified positions which people are protecting against equality. What we’re saying is we need to get around those walls, we need to deliver equality.”

Comprehension has, sadly, been neglected in our education system…

Gerry Adams told Will Crawley on Talkback today that he understood what the term “a Trojan horse” meant.  And, in her statement earlier, the DUP’s Arlene Foster assisted those who might not.

A Trojan Horse is a weapon dressed up as a gift.

The SDLP’s Colum Eastwood also focused on the Trojan horse remark

“Gerry Adams said very clearly that Sinn Féin is using the principle of equality as a tactic. When he said that equality was a ‘Trojan horse of the entire republican strategy’ Adams revealed that Sinn Féin is not interested in promoting an equality agenda because it is the right thing to do but rather because it can ‘break’ their opponents.

The Alliance Party leader, David Ford, added

“I have absolutely no idea why Gerry Adams could possible think that this language was justified. He has actually damaged equality legislation with his remarks.

And the UUP leader Mike Nesbitt

“But the most shocking revelation is that he considers equality as a ‘Trojan Horse’.

“The audio recording makes clear Gerry Adams thinks equality is nothing more than a tool to be used to manipulate people like me. That is shocking, to the point of nausea.

Fortunately, after his “the point is to actually break these bastards” comment, the Sinn Féin president, Gerry Adams, TD, went on to provide a couple of examples to illustrate his point about using “equality” as “the Trojan horse of the entire republican strategy”.  From the Impartial Reporter’s fuller transcript

[Gerry Adams] “But what’s the point? The point is to actually break these bastards – that’s the point. And what’s going to break them is equality. That’s what’s going to break them – equality. Who could be afraid of equality? Who could be afraid of treating somebody the way you want to be treated. That’s what we need to keep the focus on – that’s the trojan horse of the entire republican strategy – is to reach out to people on the basis of equality.

The question about where is the tipping point… You see, the interesting thing about Gorbachev… Gorbachev didn’t set out to get rid of the USSR – that wasn’t his intention. He wanted to modernise it. It needed to be reformed but once he started to pull the thread it wasn’t possible. The afrikaners didn’t want to bring about an ANC government in South Africa. They wanted to get rid of the international campaign that was hurting them in terms of their different money making ventures. They actually, and I had the privilege of going there after Mandela was released and I talked to the guy – I forget his name but it is well enough written about -went into the prison to talk to Mandella and he told me, because he was one of the people who went and argued for them to start defusing some of the worst aspects of apartheid rule. They thought Mandela was going to home, they thought that blacks couldn’t govern themselves – he told me that.” [added emphasis]

At last, then, the answer Gerry Adams refused to give to the question posed on his one-night-only appearance in New York in June 2009, “United Ireland – How do we get there?”  On a Trojan horse!

[Look into my eyes, the eyes, the eyes, not around the eyes..? – Ed]  You might very well think that…

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  • Tacapall

    The Trojan Horse analogy to republicans means simply, to undermine from within, Sinn Fein plays the role of Trojan horse up at Stormont everyday and its not like unionists haven’t used the same tactic themselves either, remember the Sunningdale agreement.

  • Bryan Magee

    How does that square with using *equality* as a Trojan horse? The Equality is not real. It is a way of fooling the enemy, ultimately to defeat them (break the b@$t@rd$), as the Greeks did the Trojans.

  • Zeno3

    It’s just a little game being played out for us. It’s called Good Cop, Bad Cop. Gerry keeps the hard-liners on-board with his outrageous comments. The love all that “put manners on them ” and Break the bastards” nonsense. It keep them happy. Marty is Mister Nice Guy. O Dowd is like cannon fodder. They throw him out there when they need some deflection. He does what he is told and doesn’t care.

  • sean treacy

    Eastwoods idea of equality means voting to discriminate against ex prisoners.Ex prisoners of course are fine by Colm when they are dead.Then he can carry their coffin (flag draped and flanked by a colour party and given the final salute by a disso firing party) in pursuit of votes.

  • Practically_Family

    Pretty much this. It’s a nod & a wink to the “faithful”, an indication that there’s a reply to curried yoghurt and.. Well, no. That’s it really.

    If you get upset about about it you’re probably going the right way about making him say it again.

    Or some other what’s good for the goose is good for the gander crap.

  • Practically_Family

    It alludes to using the notion of equality to promote the republican agenda.

    It should be replied to on a similar basis.

    protip: parades and abortion rights will not equate in most eyes.

  • notimetoshine

    Good god will it ever end. This farcical carry on is ridiculous. Whether its Adams or robinson sf or DUP I despair. And what is worse is the political commentators and the media lap this stuff up. God forbid the myriad of problems and issues facing out public services, economy and society might get a look in. Even on slugger I have noticed a marked tendancy to get bogged down in sectarian head counts, petty identity politics and the balme game. But then the people of NI did vote for them….

  • Tacapall

    Thats just your way of looking at it Bryan but the reality is equality is the level playing field required before normality can be politically engineered and it is those within unionism like Gregory Campbell who reject that principle.

  • Practically_Family

    Your last point says it all. The people voted for what they thought important.

  • notimetoshine

    Of course that means no more complaining about shoddy public services, budget problems, jobs….

  • Bryan Magee

    I think that equality of opportunity is very important, and I also believe in to a lesser extent moderating outcomes to greater equality. This is why i favour wealth taxes on large properties for example.

    However to call it a “Trojan horse” is actually to suggest that its a trick. I guess it was a mistake of Adams to use the term, he seemed to admit it on Talkback, but then went on to use the term Trojan Horse again. It is actually – for those who know their Classics – a rater offputting metaphor.

    Not a “trust building” metaphor – to say the least!

    The metaphor should be dropped and discontinued.

  • Bryan Magee

    I think the problem of using the Trojan Horse metaphor is that of trickery. The entire story of the tale of Troy is that of Trojans being fooled and tricked by the Horse, only then to be defeated as the Greeks come out of the horse. The well known expression “beware of Greeks bearing gifts” is the lesson from that story. Translated that is “don’t trust Sinn Féin’s talk of outreach-it is really there to destroy you”

  • Dixie Elliott

    The Trojan Horse…

  • Tacapall

    I wouldn’t say its equality of opportunity Gerry Adams is talking about, its equality of nationality, of tradition, of culture, victims etc some might find his words insulting and they understandably are but nevertheless, beneath the metaphor, his understanding of how to confront this unequality in a dignified and pacifistic way is food for thought for other parties who seriously want a peaceful future for all the people of this island.

  • Tacapall

    So Bryan should us Irish be wary of the term Perfidious Albion ?

  • Bryan Magee

    there must be equality of opportunity for people of different cultures and religions but for me the big issue is also equality of outcome and I think that requires some kinds of tax on property so that those who do not have property do not pay and those who have large properties – and hence the broadest shoulders – do.

  • Bryan Magee

    We Irish should certainly be wary of perfidy,from whichever source! A Trojan Horse is an example of perfidy par excellence!

  • Dan

    Adams gets too much credit amongst the political commentariat. He’s treated as if he is some deep thinking sage, whereas the reality is that he is a bullshitter, a complete and total waffler.
    McGuinness, not withstanding his vile past, at least speaks plainly, little of the gobbledygook of his leader.

  • eireanne
  • Dec

    I’m struggling to see why the ‘They don’t say what you wanted them to say in the teeth of an election? Ah, diddums.’ line of argument isn’t as applicable here as it was on another thread.

    On a side note, does Nesbitt’s line about being ‘sick to the point of nausea’ mean he was actually sick or was was he just hunched over the bog, dry-heaving?

  • Practically_Family

    Neither are genii.

    They just don’t have to pander to the “special” element within their voter base as the Unionists appear to have to.

  • Practically_Family

    For themmuns or ussuns?

  • Practically_Family

    Most Unionists don’t trust Sinn Fein & never will.

    SF are unconcerned.

  • notimetoshine

    Ha! Of course the most important question…

  • barnshee

    NI had the most draconian Equality legislation in Europe if not the world— for decades
    Which aspects of society are “unequal” and why?

  • ted hagan

    The curry and yogurt and toilet paper were bad enough but now along comes this Trojan horse conundrum and I’m completely baffled. What’s it all about? Has Northern Ireland gone completely bonkers or have both of the main parties done a secret deal that allows them to scupper the agreement?

  • ted hagan

    Sunningdale was no Trojan horse. It’s overthrow was a disaster for the North or Northern Ireland or whatever you wanna call it

  • Robin Keogh

    I am quite enjoying all this to be honest, it seems these days that GA can say anything and everyone goes stir crazy, he seems to be the itch that you just can’t scratch. All the palava just adds another percentage point onto SF in the polls so happy days.

    Seriously though, Gerry called bigots Bastards and apologized afterwards, grand. The problem now seems to be the Trojan Horse analogy and whether or not it indicates a level of pretence in the SF claim to be committed to an equality agenda. Anybody who is a member of SF or a supporter can testify to the fact that social economic and political equality is the bedrock of SF policy, more importantly shinners are well known for their sterling work on the ground in local communities, hence the slow but steady growth in their popularity. I know people dont like to hear that but hey, its the way it is.

    Finally the Trojan Horse itself – Look, the people of troy when they saw the horse knew exactly what it was; a great big wooden Horse. Likewise political Unionism knows exactly what equality is, a great big wooden horse The problem for the Trojans was that they just didn’t realise what was gonna climb out of that Horse and fuk them up the ass, you can work the rest out for yourselves ……

  • Cue Bono

    Gerry is indeed a very lucky man indeed. Most normal politicians associated with allegations linked to terrorism, murder, rape, incest and paedophilia would be hounded out of office in disgrace. Lucky old Gerry though just gets more and more popular amongst the faithful. A politician who called people of a different political persuasion to him bastards would normally be regarded as an uncouth, bigoted, idiot, but not the bould Gerry. The bastards are all bigots you see so Gerry can’t be. Oh and homophobes and racists to boot, so the bould Gerry is actually doing a great service by calling them all bastards.

    Talking about equality as a Trojan horse to break the ‘bastards’ with is also a laudable thing, because whilst Gerry has revealed himself to be utterly unworthy of any trust whatsoever (who knew?), it is all about building an Ireland of equals. Well sort of. A sort of Animal Farm type equality.

    Gerry can do anything he likes and he will still command a cult like loyalty from his drone like followers. Scores of whom dedicate their lives to monitoring and trolling the social media so that he is defended come what may. He can even get unionist barmen to vote for his party. A very lucky man indeed. It will take the Republic of Ireland to break him.

  • Cue Bono

    Many people would be of the opinion that Gerry is a Trojan horse planted right in the middle of republicanism.

  • Robin Keogh

    In a civilised society it needs to be proved that u are linked to terrorism, murder, rape, incest or paedophilia to justify the destruction of your life so if you have any evidence i suggest u go to the authorities.

    I agree, any politician that calls people of a different political persuasion Bastards is indeed a bigot etc. but GA didnt say that or anything like that. He called bigots Bastards, and I agree as many other do also.

    U believe he is untrustworthy…as is your right so good for you.

    We dont simply monitor and troll for no reason….dont you know? we have been ordered to do so…please keep up !! Jesus Wept !

    The 26 counties have broken GA already,his back is broken counting all the votes he has…long may it continue

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Look.

    Nearly every autumn or winter SF do or say something that appeals to the hardliners and that gives unionists an apoplexy.

    Unionists will now spend the next few months trying to draw blood which will only galvanise the support for SF.

    And just when/if it looks like the Unionists or opponents of SF might be getting somewhere marching season arrives.

    By which point everyone retreats to their battle lines and spends their energy attacking the OO (or specific aspects of the OO and marching culture) or blindly defending the very same.

    By which stage stuff like this will be forgotten or any potential political gain lost e.g. SpAd Bill.

    Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

  • kalista63

    If he had said, hold a mirror up to the bigots, homophobes and racists, it would have been a Susie Q.

  • kalista63

    I’d say it’s about modernity in a diverse but increasingly cohesive society. DUP say they reflect their community but church attendance stats, attitudes to LGBT community etc does not support their assertion.

  • kalista63

    Not reading the English papers? Here’s a clue: David Cameron scoffing victims of abuse by politicians, including in his own party possibly including deaths.

  • kalista63

    If only. I’d love the incitement laws brought in here. Might calm our summers down.

  • Zeno3

    “Gerry can do anything he likes and he will still command a cult like loyalty from his drone like followers.”

    The gullible are easily led.

  • chrisjones2

    EXprisoners are by dewfintion criminals

  • hurdy gurdy man

    An (intended?) consequence of this remark will be to render the whole notion of equality suspect in the eyes of unionists.

    Unionists Against Equality anyone?

    That’ll make us look good…

  • chrisjones2

    So what do you think of all these corrupt claims then Robin? Fake charities, fake companies, fake claims for mileage from MLAs who didnt drive,

    Is there anything that SF wont lie about?

  • Bryan Magee

    1. The comments about Bastards were not about “bigots” when he made them. That was something Adams claimed afterwards – look at the transcript.
    2. The Trojan Horse thing undermines Adams talk about equality: it gives people doubt their intentions.

  • chrisjones2

    So post Spotlight just how much of SFs operation in De Suth is actually funded by the Brits channelling money into the Party via well known fake organisations and sweetheart tax deals all set up and approved by UK Ministers

    Isn’t it delicious that on almost the 100th anniversary of the Republic its politics are being secretly bought by the Brits. You couldn’t make this up. Perfidious Albion!!!

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Tacapall, I still sincerely (as opposed to making a party political point) believe that GAs support of Liam and his behaviour to Áine and Maíria makes it impossible for anyone who has come close to real abuse to trust him on any of this. I know this is an old record, but it was only by adding “Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam” (“and in finally concluding, Carthage, too, must be destroyed”) at the end of every senate speech he gave that the incorruptable Cato the elder reminded Rome that those who wanted to destroy her still had the power to.

    How can anyone have the affrontery to represent a policy of equality and justice with such behaviour within his own family marking how he truly feels on these things? How can anyone expect those who have experienced these things, and are not simply armchair theorists of equality and justice, to trust the party that stands behind him to honestly mean what they claim about these things? Just as the only way for any decent person in the other tradition to react to Gregory Campbell is to affirm the Irish language, so anyone within SF who has truly inherited our peoples centuries long passion for true freedom and justice must not continue to countenence such a contradiction as GA speaking for something which he has not acted himself on when tested, and respesenting each and every one of his parrty to the world in this.

    As I’ve said to Robin Keogh, I do not think of myself as an enemy of SF, but of someone who cares about what it should be.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    “Draconian” until you try and use them for any personal racial abuse made pretty much in private as opposed to something that can be “proved” such as discrimination in work, or publicly expressed abuse.

  • Neil

    Produce a transcript with preamble and we’ll believe you. The only contextual reference is that of Rodney, which specifies bigots in his recording, and he tweeted that prior to Adams’ clarification.

  • Bryan Magee

    Rodney’s transcript is the only one, it does not have the term “b******s” applying to bigots only.

  • Neil

    Rodney tweeted that Adams said that the way to deal with the bigots was to break them with equality. He tweeted that prior to Adams later clarification. So either Rodney had a time machine, travelled to the future, saw Adams retrospective explanation and travelled back in time again to tweet that Adams was talking about bigots or he was actually there and heard what he said, including the bit prior to Adams’ swearing which no one has produced a transcript of.

    So what’s your explanation? Why did Rodney tweet that Adams was referring to bigots prior to Adams clarification? You reckon he’s a shinner stooge Charlie boy? Or were you actually there, and therefore know what was said? Either way, put up or shut up.
    The comments about B* were not about bigots when he made them
    Do you have some proof of that in the form of a transcript? Or are you talking through your hole?

  • Morpheus
  • delphindelphin

    In Summary – bugger the bastards!

  • barnshee

    Lying republican has (not very well) hidden agenda -cue shock horror

  • Neil

    Many thanks Morph.

  • barnshee

    “Draconian” until you try and use them for any personal racial abuse made pretty much in private as opposed to something that can be “proved” such as discrimination in work, or publicly expressed abuse.”

    I am baffled- if something is”private” I struggle to see where Equality legislation can influence it..

    There is no denying that there is discrimination in NI which might be regarded as “private” —“I don`t shop there”– “I don`t go there” largely for religious/political reasons because “they” or “there” are perceived to be part of- or support “themuns”. Not being specifically spelled out in those terms of course. Not sure anything can be done for that.

    (I am ambivalent at best about the EQ -Organisations have learned –some the hard way that a proper audit trail for appointments and complaints plus a rough balance on staff “make up” will keep the EQ away The EQ has in any event enough of its own problems on “make up” to be going on with)

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Effectively, people can be seriously intimidated both by word and by threat of serious violence on racial issues by a neighbour careful not to mouth off in front of anyone who does not support his views. It can become common knowlege in a community and yet nothing can be done about it using EQ. Since I fought a planning issue using familiarity with legal language, neighbours have been coming to me to get advice on issues such as these to get what theys hould say straight before the approach CAB or a solicitor.

    The one thing taht’s become clear to me is that an abuser virtually has to put it o YouTube to become vulnerable. As you say, “a proper audit trail for appointments and complaints plus a rough balance on staff “make up” will keep the EQ away”, so within the bounds of carefulness similar things can be contrived within even public systems. I’m ambiva;ent about teh whole EQ culture myself, not because I do not entirely support the concept, but because it is so ineffective in any real life situation! “Draconian” indeed!!!!!

  • barnshee

    Can`t be –its an incoherent ramble ranging from Nelson Mandela via Gorbachev ,The Trojan wars and somebody called Kevin.
    There appears to be a tribe of Yous present tho G had left them uncapitalised

    Why are yous so annoyed about David Trimble?

    Are these a previously unidentified sect/grouping

    Marks awarded GCSE (U)

  • barnshee

    I don`t think the FE legislation is intended to apply “in private”

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Not a new problem, chrisjones2. The Wikipedia article on the cultural activist William Rooney says that, “He spent some time travelling the country promoting the Irish language and condemned the Irish parliamentary party for its failure to promote the language.” That was peripheral, what he really condemned them for was the “Animal Farm – Pig/Human” effect that must follow on any engagement in the British political model, which, Rooney believed must absorb anyone who participated completely in the end. As an alternative he actually recommened a form of active non-engagement that put cultural issues properly at the centre, rather than any formal political action. This approach would reach, and influence, Ghandi by way of the Belfast “Protestant” Theosophist James Cousins.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Rooney

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Which is why its utterly useless in most real life situations. There’s “private” and “private” however. I’d used “pretty much in private” quite purposfully, to underline that, as I say below, short of the perpetrator putting their bile up on YouTube it is almost impossible to get any redress for day to day abuse. The legislation is, as you say above, simply intended to make public bodies conform to certain standards, something that it will even fail in so long as people can think of smart ways around the legislation. As in so much else Stormont does, the legislation seems to have become simply window dressing (the actual effect if not the first intention) and the term “Draconian” simply applies to words on paper.

    You cannot expect people respect the concept of equality if they daily see others who can abuse their neighbours with impunity in most real life situations. Draco’s code in seventh century Athens was noted for its severity. Legislation that leaves most instances of an offence utterly unchallenged can hardly be called “Draconian ” in any meaningful sense!!!!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draco_(lawgiver)

  • PeterBrown

    Neil not that you have seen the transcript which clearly does not limit it to bigots of whatever ilk unlike the retrospective tweet what say you now?

  • PeterBrown

    How there be legislation for private actions disputed by the alleged perpetrator in the absence of proof – surely that would require a lowering of the burden of proof of whatever standard which would then in turn allow anyone to make false allegations about anyone else and expect them to be punished?

  • PeterBrown

    What incitement laws are we “missing”? PS Any chance of you replying on the previous thread now that there is a transcript published completely contradicting your position?

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Oh I know all that. the point I’m attempting to make is that any legislation to create a climate of equality must be a bit of a joke in the real world.

    I have scant respect for a legal system that is really built around supporting financial interests and flounders when it attempts to do anything outside this!

    The abuse issues currently in the public eye highlight this. Even with the declared will of the system to allow survivors to find redress for their sufferings, there is little or no movement to do this. Issues of proof again, and teh law may be used even by the offspring of dead abusers to silence survivors with defamation actions if these offspring are prominant enough to find their careers effected.

  • Neil

    We’re trying to convert people and in there somewhere the sort of fundamentalist bigotry, because that’s what it is – it’s nothing got to do with politics. It’s got to do with blind bigoted hatred of people and not just Catholics, of Presbyterians, of Church of Ireland, of meth… of everybody, bar the people who share their own very narrow vision of the world.

    Now, that’s not unique in Ireland. It manifests itself in other societies but in other societies it’s illegal and in other societies life goes on and people can be racist, people can be homophobic, people can be anti-Semitic but they are not allowed to do it in a very public way. So, we don’t have that expression yet. Sectarianism remains one of the big issues that we have to deal with as a people.

    There are lots of thoughts in terms of the indications that were thrown up. One of the things that was very prevalent was the point that Kevin made. For a period there, I spend most of my working week in Dublin but when I was back in Belfast or at meetings like this it was universal people saying ‘what’s the point?’, ‘what’s the point?’. They weren’t blaming Sinn Fein — in fact they were making the point that Sinn Fein were doing their best.

    But what’s the point? The point is to actually break these b******* – that’s the point. And what’s going to break them is equality. That’s what’s going to break them – equality. Who could be afraid of equality? Who could be afraid of treating somebody the way you want to be treated. That’s what we need to keep the focus on – that’s the trojan horse of the entire republican strategy – is to reach out to people on the basis of equality

    The discussion is clearly around bigots of various hues. I don’t know what transcript you read but that one vindicates my assumption.

  • mac tire

    Neil, the remarks which lead up to your part of the transcript actually strengthen your argument.

    “I didn’t think it was possible but the DUP seem to be going backways and more bigotry, you know. Is there a line in the sand that we say, look it, there’s no point even trying with these ones because they are dragging the whole thing down.

    …it is a matter of being patient but not being too patient, you know, trying to push, push ahead. And you can rest assured that somewhere in that notion of why increasingly Unionists aren’t voting is that they are scundered by the likes of Gregory Campbell, they are scundered by the things that are
    going on. They are not going vote for us and so on at this stage, in our development or their development but, I mean, yous all live here – how many Unionists do you talk to?”

    Peter Brown – Adams is clearly talking about bigots. If you can’t see that then you don’t want to.

  • Bryan Magee

    He uses Lord Trimble as an example, (Nobel Prize winner who actually negotiated and defended the Agreement!!), he seems to be talking about unionists quite broadly. He asks people “have you talked to unionists” as though the unionist position is a problem that needs converting.

  • PeterBrown

    He is reasonably clearly equating the DUP in its entirety (and by implication their supporters and electorate) with bigots if you don’t selectively quote, and the swear word is not explicitly or arguably even implicitly linked to the preceding reference to bigots 2 paragraphs beforehand…

  • Neil

    We’re obviously going to have to disagree. He’s talking about bigots before the swearword, and he’s talking about bigots afterwards. In what way would equality legislation affect non bigots?
    The only people equality legislation can be used ‘against’ and broken are bigots of various hues and he specifies religion, race and sexuality.

  • Neil

    I also find it interesting that the vast majority of reporting seems to begin directly after the paragraphs I emboldened above. It’s almost as if for some reason the many references to bigots, racists etc. have been cut off and the two paragraphs that don’t specify who he’s talking about are quoted in isolation.
    And again it’s worth noting that Rodney’s tweet suggests he took Adams’ swearward to be in reference to bigots. He was there. Maybe he was right in the first place?

  • Bryan Magee

    He seems to think that there is a problem of people hating Methodists.

  • Bryan Magee

    Actually he includes Lord Trimble as well.

  • Morpheus

    Read the whole thing from start to finish with an open mind Bryan. His language was clumsy in the exchange with the member of the audience but it’s pretty clear he was not talking about unionists in general – hence the clarification within 24 hours

    And even though Lord Trimble played a vital role in the GFA and is to be congratulated for it, he had his moments back in those days:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/825000/images/_827903_trim150.jpg

  • Barneyt

    Maybe I missed it, but I didn’t see much evidence that this story was running much south of the border. They run stored if they appear to damage SF, so perhaps the shouts of, get the bastards with equality, was seen as something that might go down too well?

  • Bryan Magee

    To be fair Neil, I accept you may be right. It’s not completely clear to me but yours is certainly a possible interpretation, and seems more in keeping with what Gerry Adams would probably want to be saying.

  • MainlandUlsterman

    when you’re in a hole, Neil …

  • MainlandUlsterman

    Is he working for us? It does seem like it at times 😉 What a specimen.

  • Barneyt

    The trojan horse analogy was perhaps misused but most have got far too excited by it and have just run with the idea that once in the door, SF will kill all unionists in their beds. I see it mostly as a statement that can be translated as thus.

    Unionists exist to dominate and wont easily let go of that role they have played for many decades. They have a strangle-hold on many aspects of society and law that would not even be tolerated in the motherland. Its part of their fabric and the horses get scared when nationalism gains a foothold. Achieving equality amidst this will in effect dismantle the type of unionism that is based on inequality and dominance over another.

    For me, that is a fair enough Trojan Horse. It should not be taken as a call to destroy everything unionist, but should be seen as targeting these inequalities. If anybody tries to set up and control an unfair society which manipulates and prohibits unreasonably, they deserve to be destroyed from within (metaphor), however they gain entry. It is the republican raison d’etre to gain equality, and isn’t is best done through bastard this and bastard that, than shoot this and bomb that?

  • Bryan Magee

    You might be right Morph (and Neill) upon re-reading. Now, I don’t want to read it again for the sake of my sanity.

    My favourite section of his ramblings is where he appears to suggest there are people out there who specifically hate Methodists 🙂

  • Morpheus

    Fair play Bryan, respect where it is due.

    When it comes to his ramble about the Methodists then I think they were just part of a non-exhaustive list – the Polish get it in NI, the Roma get it, students get it, poor people get it, rich people get it, gay people get it…pretty much anyone who can kinda be viewed as not being ‘one of us’ gets it. Same for the Methodists I suppose

  • Cue Bono

    The idea that Sinn Fein is interested in equality is laughable. Their aim is dominance and we know this because where they are dominant the wishes and aspirations of unionists are trampled into the dirt. Anyone with any interest in equality would not for instance name a children’s play park after a sectarian mass murderer just a few miles from where he had carried out that mass murder.

    When their ministers get the chance to discriminate against a Protestant in order to hire a Catholic they do so. That fies in the face of any pretence at equality.

    Currently they have a strangle hold on law to the extent that pro SF terrorists have received get out of jail free cards which prevent them from being prosecuted even when their fingerprints are pastered all over the murder scene. No such exemption exists for republicans who have not toed the Provo line, so people like McGeough and Kearney go down for historic crimes, as indeed do loyalists, whilst Provos go free. That has nothing to do with any form of equality in law.

    When Adams talks about a Trojan Horse (in itself amusing given that he may well be one himself) he is talking about pretending to be interested in equality whilst in reality gaining dominance. His equality involves taking from unionists and giving nothing in return. That is not equality.

    What then is his motivation? It is simply to keep the drones preoccupied with the notion that they are winning. Every attack on unionists, every calculated insult towards unionists (bastards that they are) is delivered with the intention of demonstrating (to the drones) that he is in an unstoppable process of breaking them and in consequence the union.

    All of this of course suits the British government very well indeed, because when the drones are under the impression that the Dear Leader is leading them to inevitable victory (any day now), they do not feel the need to murder people.

    Unfortunately though increasing numbers of them are beginning to wake up to the fact that there is absolutely no prospect of a united Ireland and increasing numbers of them are taking a long hard look at Mr Adams. They have no problem with the mass murder, the bombings, the abductions and disappearences etc (fortunes of ‘war’ etc). They might even give the associations with rape, incest, cover ups, movement of paedophiles etc a by ball.

    It is when they look at the timeline of the movement of the republican movement from terrorism to politics that their eyes begin to open. Did all of those hunger strikers really need to die, or did the deaths have to continue to kick start SF’s political rise? Wasn’t it convenient that so many Provo hardliners went to the big Ard Fheis in the sky in the late eighties. Isn’t it strange that tons of Libyan weaponry did not result in the much anticipated Tet offensive?

    As I said before though he is a very lucky man. Lucky to command the support of so many unthinking drones and lucky to have the further support of a mysterious hidden hand.

  • MainlandUlsterman

    “SF will kill all unionists in their beds”

    Hmm, yes: killing unionists in their beds isn’t the kind of thing you’d associate with SF at all. That would be ridiculous. I mean, imagine a party that had a policy of killing voters it didn’t like …

  • Zeno3

    “a mysterious hidden hand.” ???

    There is nothing mysterious or hidden about it. Gerry is extremely valuable to the Brits. They protect him. They even wrote speeches for him to feed to the drones. God knows what else.

  • Bryan Magee

    Indeed. SF leaders did kill many people in their civilian lives, one heck of a lot. Those leaders still leading.

  • Cue Bono

    Yes indeed. Jonathan Powell wrote their speeches for them back in the Bliar glory days. Things have gone a bit off script since then.

  • Robin Keogh

    Give me the details please, as I have heard nothing of this.

  • mac tire

    Don’t expect Chris to answer Robin. He makes wild claims without evidence and when questioned just ignores (though expect him to answer this to prove me wrong). Just don’t expect the answer, merely hyperbole. That’s what I have learned.

  • mac tire

    Paisley indeed turned out the voice of reality, Gutter. Remember the fun times with Marty? Oh the craic! And the phone call to summon Marty at the end? Indeed, Ian faced reality.
    Marty will reveal all some day about that meeting and what was said. Paisley, the friend of Marty.

  • mac tire

    “imagine a party that had a policy of killing voters it didn’t like …” [MainlandUlsterman]
    “SF leaders did kill many people in their civilian lives, one heck of a lot. Those leaders still leading.” [Bryan Magee]

    I think you both are mixed up with the IRA. They are the ones who killed. Sinn Féin has never ever killed anyone. Do you have info on this? I suggest you go to your local PSNI/Garda station.
    Can you actually provide some sort of evidence, in any way? Thanks.

  • Granni Trixie

    Yet another another own goal by Adams, one likely to have a long lasting impact on trust building. I was quite shocked actually at use of the Trojan metaphor with reference to equality – a value and practice invoked by the civil rights movement – now revealed as a weapon in the SF armory.

    GA sentiments also reminds me of something I read when Googling the story of a Republican (may have been Bobby Storey,timely, what?) where he is reported as saying something along the lines that Republicans had to be alert to identify opportunities for new sites of conflict – hence marching disputes (think Garvahy Rd,Ormeau Rd etc) dont just happen but are a methodically applied strategy to impliment their project.

  • aber1991

    “Equality of outcome”
    That really would be a Trojan Horse. The student who does no study would get the same grades as one who studied hard for the exams.