Peter Taylor hooks up with the boy turned retired IRA volunteer..

The Firemen have done a sterling job in clipping telling detail from Peter Taylor’s documentary Who Won The War. You can find them all on our Facebook page. But I wanted to clip this one myself…

With the possible exception of Jim Pryor, almost everyone else Taylor talks to is trying to play some contemporary angle, from the two FMs, to Tony Blair and Jackie McDonald. Sean McKinley doesn’t, and his confession of confidence and fealty to Adams and McGuinness only adds to the pathos of his own experience and judgement thereof…

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  • Tacapall

    Looking at life and politics from Sean’s perspective I dont see any contradiction in what he is saying, its an admission that being mummy’s little soldier when your a child is not the same as the real thing when your older but because we’re stupid once doesn’t mean we have to be stupid all the time. For most in the republican movement membership is like marriage its for life.

  • Michael Henry

    ” his confession of confidence “-

    Hardly a confession- Sean is a Republican that supports the Leadership of Adams and McGuinness-nothing out of the ordinary there- a few reporters have tried with out success of trying to say the dissidents are hardline and they have to sound so surprised that those who have been Republicans for decades would still support Sinn Fein than listen to journalists lies-

  • Brian Walker

    The sight of Sean then and now , not his words, was surely the most eloquent comment in the whole film, which as ever Peter steered with assurance and sensitivity. It wasn’t what Sean said but how this broken ill old man in his fifties looked. Peter focused the film on the republican narrative featuring fateful episodes such as Bloody Sunday and the hunger strike and depicting loyalist violence mainly in reaction to them without referring to atrocities committed against unionists which are part of loyalist ideology. Nor did the film go into the pressures on the IRA leading to ceasefire. All of these themes of course Peter has covered superbly in earlier documentary series. These would have been important elements in considering the question: was violence justified? But his narrower focus was probably sufficient in answering the slightly different question: did violence pay? which is clearly relevant for the republican movement but less so, or not at all, for loyalism. He was of course right to give the range of answers from his witnesses.
    His own brief conclusion that he could conceive of a united Ireland one day, while of course entirely plausible came rather out of the blue and we could have done with some more explanation. Did he mean that implacable republican determination will win through in the end in the ultimate proof that violence pays? Or that a growing normality will assert itself in unity? He might have made that clear if he was going to offer his own opinion.

  • Dixie Elliott

    His words that it was all waste ring true for many of us. When we look at cast offs like Sean and the wealthy Sinn Fein leadership we see who really won the war.

    Far from supporting Adams and the safest Republican in Ireland during the war, McGuinness, those who know Sean told me he’s a wreck and its more than likely his words of support for the twosome come from a fear of the knock on the door from the Adamsite thought police…

    McIvor should look back at the low turn out for Adams at his mural unveiling to see how many Republicans outside of the 150 or so of the British funded crowd who turned up.

    And still talking nonsense I see no wonder they shafted him…. McIvor that is.

  • Dixie Elliott

    No it’s not Tacapall. Republicans don’t toast the British Queen for a start….

  • Tacapall

    I would agree with you on that Dixie but I also know Sean personally and I know he nor his wider family would be the type of people who would be frightened or intimidated not to say what was on their minds.

    That said I would also agree with you about the glaring chasm of unequalness that has opened up within republicanism between those living opulent lifestyles that have private medical treatment donated to them, those who use the financial and political benefits associated with the GFA to look after only themselves their wider families and their own wee cliques some holding four or five jobs who look down on other less fortunate republicans who live in poverty and ill health who are sacrificed to the mercy of the British no sharing of the community wealth generated from the political struggle for them, their membership of the commune is terminated they are of no further use other than to put X on a British ballot paper.

  • Michael Henry

    Republicans don’t name their Comrades during the war on Tapes or in Press interviews – you are bound to be glad that you were not conned into talking for Boston college Dixie-I mean- how could anyone con somebody as smart as yourself-

  • Old Mortality

    What is the ‘community wealth generated from the political struggle’. Just curious

  • Tacapall

    Old Mortality Im sure you know enough about the commune ideology that is the foundation of Sinn Feins industrial wage construct. All the wealth generated by MP’s MLA’s, Councilors, Advisors, expenses, donations etc etc. Then theres the wealth generated outside of the political institutions, clubs, taxi firms, property holdings etc etc it all adds up to an opulent lifestyle for the chosen few.

  • NMS

    I find that the whole Northern Nationalist discussion around “unity” fails to deal with the realities.

    Unity with what or who?

    The vast majority of people living in Ireland do not want anything to do with UKNI and certainly would run a thousand miles from paying for it.

    Northern nationalists have no clear understanding how “unity” would turn out for them. A quick look at German “Unity” from an “Osi” perspective would cool their ardour.

    Your all UKs now, get on with it. The leaders of Sinn Féin know it, but are still unwilling to admit it 3,000 dead for nothing.

  • Dixie Elliott

    Those Republicans didn’t name comrades they exposed people like Adams and McGuinness who were clearly protected by the Brits. And of course Adams was a paedophile protector so who outside of the Queens own Shinners really cares who named them? Not Republicans anyway.

  • Dixie Elliott

    OM knows what you’re referring to Tacapall a blind person could see the corruption which runs through Adamsism….

  • barnshee

    “All the wealth generated by MP’s MLA’s, Councilors, Advisors, expenses, donations etc etc”

    Ah the good old British Taxpayer helps out again

  • Michael Henry

    There you have it-Dixie supports those that give names on tapes-Ivor bell was also named by one of the price sisters on a boston tape and in press interviews-so according to Dixie Ivor is not a Republican-

  • Dixie Elliott

    What planet are you on MH Mc Ivor?

    Ivor Bell was was arrested and charged because of a tape the PSNI believe he made. The tape had no name to connect it to Bell and was given the title ‘Z’ and the only person who named Bell as ‘Z’ if you remember was Adams…

    Therefore is Adams a tout?

  • Dixie Elliott
  • Michael Henry

    Nope Dixie- one of the Boston tape Price sisters named Ivor Bell- how Quickly you forget that you ridiculed those who were named-Ivor’s legal defence named Ivor has Z in his bail hearing- How Quickly you forget Dixie-

  • Dixie Elliott

    “Ivor Bells legal defence named Ivor has Z” lol aye right I doubt his legal team is going to do the work of the prosecution. You should stop while the goings good…

    Adams named Bell as Z after he was released.

    How come Adams was named by different people yet he is released while Bell is charged? It looks as if Gerry is too valuable an asset to the Brits to be charged doesn’t it?

  • Dixie Elliott

    You are typical of the liars that follow Adams…. Dolours Price didn’t name Ivor Bell in her interview with the press she only named Adams and below is the interview and no where is Bell’s name mentioned….

    Not only that MH McIvor how the hell do you know what was on the Boston Tapes as the only ones who know are those who gave their testimony, those who recorded it and the PSNI? Dolours Price’s recording was never made public so now the hell can you claim she named Bell?

    I repeat the only one who named Bell was Adams and therefore in your warped mentality he Adams must also be a Tout!

    The whole interview…

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/northernireland/10803439/Old-Bailey-bomber-Dolours-Price-accused-Gerry-Adams-of-being-behind-the-abductions-of-The-Disappeared.html

  • Tacapall

    British taxpayer money ! Do Irish citizens living in this British controlled part of Ireland not pay taxes ?

  • Michael Henry

    Yes- Ivor’s legal team named him as Z- did you not follow his bail hearings- strange-Bell is out on bail and you might as well say that you are to valuable an asset that you don’t be charged if that’s the route you want to go down-

  • Michael Henry

    That is only one interview in several which she gave to the media- She named Ivor to the media and she told the media most of what was on her boston tape- including a army meeting in Belfast before she went on Active service in England- she said Gerry Adams and Ivor bell attended that meeting- her words- your cover up-

  • barnshee

    They don`t pay enough

  • Dixie Elliott

    I followed it but not in Cloud-cuckoo-land….

  • Dixie Elliott

    The former councilor needs counselling….

    Clearly!!

  • Tacapall

    Really, the crown just loves us so much they throw money at us for nothing without so much as a thank you back from those ungrateful Irish with a British identity always having their begging bowls out its like throwing money into the fire. They should bring a marching and bonfire tax in that’ll bring in plenty of revenue by the way does financing those areas who supposedly dont burn tyres but do come out of the block grant or do unionist politicians pay for that out of their Westminster or Stormont expenses.

  • MainlandUlsterman

    I’ve been busy and just catching up – watched some but not all of the Taylor docco (I’ll watch the whole thing over the weekend). It was a surprisingly weak effort I thought – I usually enjoy and admire his journalism. The scene-setting segment was all over the place.
    But the two big flaws are in the premise behind it:
    (1) it’s assumed all the protagonists were fighting a ‘war’. It is not enlightening to talk of the Troubles predominantly in terms of warfare – when more accurately it consisted of terrorism, counter-terrorism and anti-terrorist security operations. Taylor used the term ‘war’ and clearly everyone knows what he means and interviewees answered him without challenging the term; but that says more about ; and
    (2) he makes the same mistake most journalists and even historians have tended to make, in underplaying the significance and experiences of the non-violent majority on both sides. You can see why they would have a lesser voice perhaps in a documentary like this, asking who came out on top in the conflict. But it’s disappointing that the recent trend towards giving victims an equal or greater voice, rather than massaging the egos of the violent by putting them centre stage, has not been reflected by this usually thoughtful film-maker.

  • MainlandUlsterman

    It was all a waste, wasn’t it. Sean cut a sad figure and that was a moving portion of the film. But we should point out that Sean is alive – a fate not granted to people who got on the wrong side of his beloved organisation back in the day. It’s never nice to see a broken man, but it’s appropriate for those who brought terror to our street to spend the rest of their lives – for which they should be thankful – in some kind of deep regret. It’s an ugly but necessary part of the peace. The fact that some of those who should be sharing Sean’s position are in fact swaggering about like they did nothing wrong itself is probably THE major barrier to NI moving on.

  • MainlandUlsterman

    and a fair analysis that he concentrated on the Republican narrative in order to assess whether their so-called “war” achieved anything. I think maybe he should have explained upfront that he was taking that approach.

    As it was, it looked like he was buying into that narrative at times – for example in portraying Bloody Sunday as when things really started, a provocation Republicans could only react to – as if, well, who wouldn’t? Well no. Republicans had already killed 118 people before 1972 started; Loyalists had killed 26; the security forces 60. Not only was Bloody Sunday not the start of it, but even after those tragic deaths, Republicans were still way ahead of everyone else combined on the tally of killings (and let’s not pretend that tally was not important).

    So at the end of 1971, Republicans had carried out about 55 per cent of Troubles killings (though a much higher percentage of murders of course, as some of the rest occurred from legitimate actions by the security forces). It ended up rising to 59 per cent overall by 1998. The question that really arises then about the aftermath of Bloody Sunday is why Catholic youth saw fit to erupt in self-righteous anger at the killing of 13 Catholics but not at the killing of 118 people by Catholics. In fact, they seemed barely cognisant of the latter.

    The real reason people rushed to join the IRA is I’m afraid not flattering for them. It was not some noble humanitarian impulse, but a myopic focus on their own community’s suffering to the exclusion of everyone else’s (frankly, greater) suffering at that time. A lust too for sectarian violence, inspired by a chauvinistic ideology many had been exposed to from early childhood, which since Pearse, glorified “blood sacrifice” and sought to objectify, dehumanise and scapegoat British people in Northern Ireland. That’s not to say the latter community were perfect – far from it – but would it have saved them if they had been? My forbears were all trussed up from the 20s-50s, ready for the slaughter. IRA violence from 1970 onwards can’t be explained purely as a reaction to contemporary events.

    If you miss out the ideological prism that produced the warped Republican Weltblick, you risk believing them when they tell you they were just reacting to events and doing what was needful. That couldn’t be further from the truth.

  • Tacapall

    Do you live in some other reality or something Mainland your post is totally one sided, not a mention of loyalist violence, how the Paisley led loyalists planted the first bombs, killed the first victims, how loyalists killed the first policeman, not a mention of the Glenanne gang a bunch of RUC officers, UDR soldiers and UVF men who operated during the 70s too murdering over 120 victims, it kind of leaves your posts lacking any credibility. If there was no war why had we the British army on our streets, Internment, political status, non jury diplock courts, special powers, Sorry but what else is there to say.

  • MainlandUlsterman

    Just pointing out the weaknesses, which I see you haven’t actually managed to refute.

  • MainlandUlsterman

    I do live, I suspect, in another reality from you Tacapall, in that I’m not from your community. You may occasionally, if you’re not careful, chance upon the perspectives and comments of others from a different background from yourself on Slugger. When it happens, try not to look so surprised. And who knows, it might enrich rather than ruin your life.

    I’ll let others judge on the credibility, but for the record the figures are from the Sutton Index of Deaths and I did talk about the figures killed by all sides. Such figures do give an unflattering picture for Republicans, but it shouldn’t be a surprise to them. It’s hardly my fault the Troubles were not in reality as evenly balanced as Republicans like to pretend – don’t shoot the messenger, as they say.

  • MainlandUlsterman

    Powell always comes across as a kind of idiot savant, but that’s wonderful. And it may answer Peter Taylor’s question about “who won the war” 🙂

    I know most unionists have allowed their general gloom to make a victory seem like a defeat, but I have to say I’m not one of them. I still have to pinch myself that the IRA gave up just like that.

  • Michael Henry

    Aye- just like that-

    Republicans were barred from the talks- Two one tonne bombs in England in 96 and all doors were open-

  • MainlandUlsterman

    I know, my girlfriend was in one of the buildings they bombed. And the SDLP gloriously blamed the government for intransigence. That Hume, what a genius.

  • $33309652

    Keep telling yourself that.
    Btw , How do you see the Precious Wee 6 Survive with the upcoming things ..We call events.
    The “events” i am refering too are
    A) the Uk Brexit from the EU.
    B) The Uk’s rapidly aging population.
    C) The stress this aging population is going to place on the NHS on the Welfare Budget etc etc.
    D) If I take point B +C together I genuinely see the UK going to the USA for a bailout.
    But D is just my opinion
    Points A,B and C will combine to wreck the UK.

  • $33309652

    The IRA wrote speeches for Peter Brooke when he was SoS.
    So, What does that tell you?

  • MainlandUlsterman

    that the IRA were liaising with the supposed enemy for quite a while to see if they could give up without being publicly humiliated. They almost made it …

  • MainlandUlsterman

    I think bailing out Ireland again will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back 😉

  • $33309652

    Britian got bailed out by the IMF in the 1970’s.
    So, Ireland is just really playing catch up.
    Mind you in the 1945, Marshall Aid Plan Britain got more money than any other Country.
    Yet how does Modern Britain compare to say Germany, for instance.
    Do you think the Germans would swap Volkswagen For John Lewis?
    Or some other Brit Retail outlet?
    The Uk with 15x times the popualtion of Ireland has 4x times the amount of Exports only.
    Let’s face the UK economy is based on retail and consumerism.
    It isn’t really an economy at all.
    Nobody does anything productive.
    Except make weapons which the taxpayer pays for.

  • MainlandUlsterman

    you’re right, we deserved no help at all in 1945 – greedy really to accept help from the US. The powerhouse Irish economy has always made look like a banana republic by comparison

  • MainlandUlsterman

    funny how many Irish come over here to work though …

  • $33309652

    LOL..Nice Dodge..But it doesn’t paper over the cracks.
    You can keep your head buried in the sand.
    But really . What happens in the likely event of England bailing out of the EU.
    Or to the NHS with the rapidly aging population.
    Or to the pensions and other Govt Services when the Worker Pension ratio goes from 3.3 to 1 now.
    to just over 2 to 1 by 2030..A mere 14 years away?
    Do you think the Brits have any workable plans for these Events.
    My point about the Marshal Aid..was for you to question what was done with it. and for you to realize just how much opportunity HMG have pee’d up against the wall.
    Or North Sea oil..Another wasted opportunity.
    How many opportunities does one Country get in a lifetime?
    A Country let’s not forget that is widely accepted by most adults to be in both actual and relative decline since 1914.
    This should be sobering stuff to most people.
    But you can carry on with your No surrender Malakery and ignore it.
    Or have you a sensible contribution to make.
    You need to think about things a bit more.
    Coz the Status Quo isn’t continuing for much longer.
    You have at most 14 years left before Britain starts to run on empty.
    Even sooner in the case of a possible/ likely Brexit in 2017.

  • $33309652

    Really. That is just sloganism now. You are not really debating.
    Two points about your slogan.
    1) If the Irish had freedom to travel/ work/ reside in the USA. Then there would be damn all in the UK(raine)
    Second 2) If Ireland was under British colonial jackboot. People would still be going to London. ( 1,000 people leave the Glorious Wee 6 paradise every week-remember )
    But there would unlikely be the 300, 000 Englanders living in the 26 Counties who call it home; these days.
    Unless you’d count those who would buy holiday homes which the upper class do in Cornwall for instance.
    So, I would say your point is moot.
    Just an empty slogan like “no Surrender”
    To the ESB, Ryanair, Aer Lingus Bord Gais and of course Sinn Fein. .Toddle Doo

  • barnshee

    “1945, Marshall Aid Plan Britain got more money than any other Country. ”

    Ah you mean the LOAN that was repaid

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/britain-pays-off-final-instalment-of-us-loan–after-61-years-430118.html

  • $33309652

    No I don’t mean the loan.
    There was a loan element and also a Grant aid element.
    And You got more AID than any other Country.
    But BTW. Who paid their war debts off first..Was it Germany or Britain.

  • MainlandUlsterman

    Still not seeing why the UK is uniquely a country that is going to fall apart. But I get a strong sense you want it to. Some primal Vernichtungslust perhaps behind the veneer of an economic critique?

  • $33309652

    simple : A)The whole ageing problem.
    B)The Debt problem 90 % Debt/ GDP ratio. deficit of 7 %
    You have a go at Ireland , all you want. But the fact is Ireland has taken drastic steps to reduce it’s deficit and it is heading toward 3% GDP. And the debt/ GDP ratio is 117%
    Now, Do you really think your debt GDP ratio of 90% versus 117% is ALL that different?
    C) Then of course there is the whole de industrialization. I mean what does England actually do? Retail. Sell some imported stufffto other people ..at a markup? Great stuff.
    But it’s not Volkswagen. Or Renault Or Fiat of Italy is it?
    Also you have printed £500 BIllion in Quantitive Easing. There will be comebacks to that.
    Ze Germans aka the ECB have NOT engaged in such a policy.
    In short, Other Countries have similar problems to the UK..But they are more indusrtrialized.; Japan for example. and other Countries don’t have your massive debts.France Germany, Holland for examples.
    BTW. going back to the whole ageing thing. You have an Unfunded Pension scheme of a whopping 360% of UK GDP , AND you have the lowest ( aka worst )pensions in Europe.. So, it’s not like you can just pay everybody less..Is it?
    So, that little list is why the UK is in a Perfect Storm. There is more the bank bailouts. The inflated property bubble in London and elsewhere. The huge amount of low paid workers.
    In short, The only thing I can think of where the so called UK does well is Medical Research..,….And that’s it. Illnesses don’t respect national borders. So I certainly wouldn’t care where medicine comes from If I needed it. So ergo I have no problem saying that.
    But really that is all and of course taxpayer paid for ( Through MoD contracts) of weapons complex.
    Yippie.

  • MainlandUlsterman

    we’re in a fix, that’s for sure; but once again, I think you can see very similar issues in most other countries.

    Evan Davies, now back as anchor of Newsnight, wrote a book recently called ‘Made In Britain’: http://evandavis.co.uk/other-projects-made-in-britain/
    He makes 2 main points: (1) the British economy did pretty well – and was pretty agile – in the 80s, 90s and 00s BUT (2) as you point out, our exports were way too weak and we relied a lot on borrowing.

    “The basic story of the UK is one of an economy that has been surprisingly dynamic in recent decades. Contrary to popular perception, we did not stand still and idly watch while China and other countries stole our industries and our jobs; we in fact adapted to the changing environment. Our economy moved up-market as we attempted to migrate towards industries in which we had a competitive advantage against newly emerging industrial economies who could mass-produce many manufactured goods at prices lower than anything we could afford to match. We shifted away from lower grade manufacturing industries into new ones based more on selling intellectual property, services and specialist manufactured goods.

    As a result, our economy grew successfully in those years. Far from being complacent, we were mostly regarded as a pioneer in carving out a new role for ourselves … our national income grew faster than that of each of Germany, Italy and France in the 1980s, the 1990s and the 2000s. We were clearly doing something right.”

    But we were borrowing unsustainably – and now we’re having to rein that in and rebalance the economy. I’m optimistic personally and Davies seems to be too.

    He goes on to say: “Britain is not a basket case … At the same time, we have no grounds for snootiness.”

    Global investors aren’t dumb or sentimental – and they still see Britain as a place with decent long term prospects compared to other countries. But if you know something they don’t, perhaps it’s time to play the forex markets, you’ll make a fortune 😉

  • MainlandUlsterman

    I should add, in your question of what we do these days. We can claim to be world-leading in the 2 industries I’ve worked in for starters: legal services and market research. My business gets commissioned to run projects across Europe and globally for example – UK agencies are probably the main hub for doing that kind of work.

    On a less personal level, here’s a list of “creative industries” in which we’re at or among the best in the world for: advertising, animation, architecture, computer games, design, digital media, fashion, film-making, music, performing arts, publishing, TV.

    Then there’s pharma, biotech and medicine, oil and gas, the dreaded financial services (which includes being the centre of the world insurance market, foreign exchange, futures trading, one of the main stock markets), IT, defence, aerospace, automotive … we’re still, despite having reduced manufacturing as a portion of the economy, the world’s 11th biggest manufacturer.

    We’re also one of the world’s leading countries for professional services – law and MR as I mentioned but also business and management consultancy, accountancy. We have a highly successful food industry. I could go on … so I’m not packing my bags for Dundalk just yet.