Israel/Palestine and the Irish perspective

The people of Ireland are hugely sympathetic to the people of Palestine! There you go my bid of understatement of the year is well and truly lodged.

Like most people, I have watched incredible and horrific scenes of Palestinian people losing their homes, jobs and relatives as they face a pounding from one of the most advanced military forces in the world. Likewise, I have watched images of Israeli’s running for shelter as rockets fly in from Hamas. While there is no question that the people of the Gaza strip have suffered the most, I wonder is our own contribution of viewing the situation in such black and white terms providing any useful insight to this debate.

I grew up in relative ignorance about the Israel/Palestine conflict, it was a situation that I never had register any opinion about, until one day in Stormont an MLA asked me to write a speech on Israel’s blockade against Gaza in mid-2010. As I tried to get the blank look off my face (why the hell was he asking me), the words ‘no problem’ came flying out of my mouth. While at the time I thought approaching a situation like this with a blank sheet of paper was a hindrance, looking back it was actually a real strength.

After being given the task, I ran off looking for materials to read and devoured reports issued by Amnesty International and the United Nations. Most people in any conflict situation (ours included) like to identify a good guy and a bad guy. Yet, the more I read, the more nuanced I realised the entire Middle East conflict is. On the Palestinian side the desire for a prosperous and viable homeland is a legitimate request that should be honoured by Israel and supported by the international community. Then Israel has legitimate security concerns, it is surrounded by countries who have tried to attack it and is one of the few states in the world where the leader of another sovereign state has vowed to wipe it off the map and denied that the holocaust even happened. I know there are questions about how long can you carry around the baggage of events that happened 60 years ago, but Christ, in 2014, we are still obsessed with events that happened nearly a century ago.

These shades of difference made me realise that like our own conflict there are no absolute rights or wrongs. Both states deserve to live in peace and security and while there are a lot of issues that are murky, I know championing the superiority of one side over another won’t achieve any stable peace. Both sides have legitimate grievances that need to be addressed and it will require leaders from both sides to raise their heads above the parapet and take some risks. Listening to hardliners like Hamas and far right parties in Israel will not achieve anything. In our own situation we had leaders who had used violence in the past who were prepared to tell their followers that the war was over and likewise, we had two governments prepared to make concessions that made that process easier.

What is going on in Gaza is indicative of the tragic failure of leadership that exists within Israel at the moment. Security and peace can only be achieved through a viable Palestinian state that gives its people a more attractive future than becoming a suicide bomber. In addition to this, imagine if the resources that Israel currently commits to defence could be reduced and used to improve the lives of its own people and their Palestinian neighbours.

This is all a bit of a muddle, but the situation in the Middle East is not a Cowboy and Indian film with a good guy v bad guys and an eventual winner at the end. The only proper solution is two sides living beside one another without the threat of violence. We have largely achieved that in Northern Ireland by recognising differences and making some compromises. The solution to the current trouble in Gaza lies in political leaders in that part of the world doing the same thing.




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  • submariner

    David six paragraphs and you spectacularly avoided mentioning the reason for the conflict,Israel’s continued illegal occupation of east Jerusalem and the west bank.

  • David McCann

    That is part of the compromises that needs to happen-Israel will face a tough choice over Jerusalem and how they share that city/allow Palestine to have it and there is no getting round that.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    2000 years ago ‘Israel’ was a mish mash of different cultures and religions all resentfully living alongside each other under the watchful eye of a powerful empire to the west.

    800 years ago Ireland had a mix of different cultures and religions all resentfully living alongside each other under the curious eye of an empire/kingdom to the east.

    The more things change…

  • npbinni

    As long as Palestinians do not recognise Israel’s right to exist (like Egypt and Jordon have), there will be no peace. SF finally acknowledged that in relation to NI, hence the progress, although rather halting, in political processes in the province.
    Israel lives with the existential threat of annihilation by neighbouring Arabs, especially from a rabid Palestinian population, who would undoubtedly complete the genocide Hilter started, were they ever to gain the upper hand.
    Israelis have every right to defend themselves when attacked, and also have the right to prevent further attacks on their country from Hamas fanatics by eliminating or reducing the threat.

  • Tugger

    Are you justifying Hamas rocket attacks on Israeli civilians?

  • barnshee

    Israelis have every right to defend themselves when attacked, and also have the right to prevent further attacks on their country from Hamas fanatics by eliminating or reducing the threat.”

    And the Palestinians –have they the right to defend themselves?
    Israel the land of property thieves and child murderers

  • Niall Chapman

    “Israel lives with the existential threat of annihilation by neighbouring
    Arabs, especially from a rabid Palestinian population, who would
    undoubtedly complete the genocide Hilter started, were they ever to gain
    the upper hand.”

    Absolutely ridiculous statement, most Palestinians just want to get on with their lives but are subjected to life in an apartheid state, which is why most of the world sees the actions of the IDF as absolutely abbhorent. As for Israel “defending” themselves they are occupying an entire country, and even the measly pieces of land that they have “generously” given to the Palestinians they create settlements on to further gain control of the land, all which are effectively 1st world oasis’ which Palestinians are refused to enter unless they are building them for tuppence.

  • Turgon

    David McCann tries to be proportionate and balanced and largely succeeds. However, some of this is a little naive. The reality is that this area of the world has been fought over since the dawn of civilisation. The only times there have been relative peace seem to have been under repressive regiemes. It also seems that a significant proportion of Isrealis will not accept giving up large areas of the West Bank for peace and possibly a larger proportion of Palestianians will not accept the mainatince of any Jewsih state in the Middle East – a postion held to by many in a number of other middle eastern countries.
    David McCann also seems a little optomistic in realtion to Northern Ireland. I am dubious that we have achieved that much here and even more dubious that what we have is permanent. This is the nature of zero sum games which characterise such ethnic / territorial disputes.
    The article also offers an insight into David McCann’s thinking which is different. He claims that “People of Ireland are hughely sympathetic to the people of Palestine.”
    This is interesting in that it appropriates one view for the “People of Ireland” This implies that “Ireland” has one “people”. In reality many people in Ireland are not always especially sympathetic to the people of Palestine. There is a small Jewish community in Ireland. These people if they are Irish are just as Irish as any other Irish people yet are more likely to be pro-Isreali. The logic of McCann’s position is that Irish people with a Jewish religious belief or heritage are not really Irish.
    Then there are the British people in Ireland. Although many of them may reject the label “Irish” most accpet the fact that the landmass is called Ireland. McCann seems to reject not only these people being Irish (which is fine since many of those British people also reject the label of Irish) but also that they are people of Ireland.
    This lazy conflation of one viewpoint (largely the nationalist / republican one) with that of the “People of Ireland” is actually rather racist by Mr. Mccann..

  • npbinni

    I think its pretty clear, when Hamas stops firing, Israel will stop. (although they may have pushed Israel a little too far this time)

    If Israel stops firing, Hamas will continue firing.

    Israel probably cannot completely destroy Hamas, but they can do a lot to hinder Hamas from trying to kill or kidnap civilians. Maybe it will mean a temporary occupation of Gaza.

    I wish the Israelis safety and every success in this noble endeavour of protecting their citizens from these blood-thirsty monsters!

  • sean treacy

    David ,when you were asked to write a speech in Stormont in 2010,were you employed by a political party or were you just asked out of the blue?

  • Niall Chapman

    I think its clearer, if a state continues to treat one side different to another then there will always be resistance, if there are two states(which is no solution) there will always be fear on both sides. A one state solution needs to be implemented, with equal rights for everyone. But “Israel” will never allow this to happen, due to idiotic reverence given to an ancient book written by people who had no idea of science or the fact that it is impossible to be “Gods chosen people”

  • npbinni

    Surely the daily massacres and mutilations of Muslims by Muslims in Syria and Iraq would give you some inkling of how an unarmed Israeli would be treated by armed Palestinians.

    Palestinian children have been brought up through an education system that creates an absolute hatred of Jews. The total annihilation of Israel is the ultimate goal of Hamas. But maybe you didn’t know that!

    Israeli has every right to defend itself from such hatred.

  • Niall Chapman

    While there are parallels to be drawn between Israel/Palestine, Occupied Six Counties/Northern Ireland (clear parallel already), its not really Kosher (excuse the pun) to compare the two. Israel over the past decades has murdered more people without remorse or care for international opinion than ever occurred in the north of Ireland. The orange state did contain institutional discrimination (nowhere near in the same league as the ghettos of Gaza and the slightly better off west bank) but discrimination never amounted to genocide or the limiting of free movement within the “state”.

  • Niall Chapman

    So when did you do this research in the Palestinian school system?

  • Jag

    I hope that when Israel comes to mow the lawn again in 2020 (?) that the deeply corrupt Palestinian authority has better educated English-fluent spokespersons, because at the moment, they come across as a bunch of strident (but not reaching the admirable level of passion) ragheaded savages who can’t express a viable position. Contrast that, with the nice Israelis whose modestly humble tones help Israel win international opinion (or at least tamp down international protest sufficiently).

    Meanwhile, there are an extra 50 settlers in the west bank today compared with yesterday. In the immortal words of Rolf Harris “can you see what it is yet”

  • RepStones

    I really hope npbinni replies to you, I’m guessing he’ll try something from illegal settler Itamar Marcus’ odious Palwatch group or some such. Let’s wait and see.

  • submariner

    UTC are you intent in confirming to the rest of sluggers readers your lack of reading and comprehension skills

  • npbinni

    Niall, if places like East Timor and South Sudan have a right to exist, wouldn’t you agree that a people who have had a presence in an area for millennia should also have a right to exist?

    The Jews ‘occupied’ the Promised Land long before Islam was ever even heard of. Although, the Philistines of Gaza have always been a bit of a pain. In those days they were child-sacrificing pagans.

    Come to think of it, things haven’t changed a whole lot. Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir put it like this: “We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. But we cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. There will be no peace until they love their children more than they hate us.”

  • npbinni

    I let you do you own research, but is a good start.

    This UN report might also help to enlighten you a little:

    In any case, it looks like Israeli forces are making steady progress in Gaza: 22 murder tunnels discovered, 40 terrorists eliminated, so far.

  • Tugger

    Yes or no?

  • RepStones

    Yeah, npbinni, human sacrifice was a bit of a thing back in the day

    As for more recent history, let’s not ignore the fact that many Jews in the Levant converted to other religions, namely Christianity and Islam. This attempt to portray Jews as being the first people in the holy land is pure fiction. They were never the first or at any period, the only.

  • Mister_Joe

    It’s not quite so simple as some believe. The roots go back at least to the founding of Islam. Many believe that Islam is a religion of war, holy war even, but that is simply not true. Islam forbids their adherents from engaging in aggressive war, only war in self defence. The main problems go back principally to the European Crusades almost 1000 years ago. Until then Muslims, Jews and Christians in the middle east lived in relative harmony and had good relationships. That ended with the crusades. A good book to explore this is “Holy War”, author Karen Armstrong, publisher Anchor Books.

  • RepStones

    Memri is never a good start. Particularly if what you’re interested in is objective analysis.


    Now if Palestinian textbooks teaching the ‘right of return’ is incitement, well then that just goes to show the colonial mentality of the accuser. Furthermore the accusation that Israel does not appear in maps in said textbooks is mirrored by the fact that the occupied Palestinian territories are shown as part of Israel in Israeli textbooks.

    As to an overall picture…


    Please do continue npbinni, but do try and take care from now and state fact, not fiction.

  • Hopping The Border

    Would any of those who see no problem with Israel’s current actions care to explain the legality/moral reasoning of obliterating the houses of “suspected” hamas militants?

  • Zig70

    As the Israeli journalist Ithamar Handelman Smith quickly noted on his visit to Northern Ireland. A widespread sentiment from the loyalist side to support Israel is born more of a racism towards Muslims than a real empathy or understanding of the situation. There is a prevalent evangelical religious denigration of Muslims even though there are a lot of similarities in the two religions. I fail to understand how you would have more of a problem with people who believe in the same god rather than atheist or completely polar.

  • Mister_Joe

    Islam and Christianity and Judaism have common roots, of course. All three see Abram, later Abraham, as a common founder. I don’t think that it is impossible for Islam and Christianity to become united some time in the (far) future, if Christians can be persuaded away from the relatively late belief that Jesus was actually “God”. Islam reveres Jesus as a prophet but cannot accept the duality of both man and god.

  • gendjinn

    The only times there have been relative peace seem to have been under repressive regiemes.

    Your casual racism is contemptible, your ignorance of the region’s history legion.

    Iran before the US coup. Lebanon before Israel.

  • gendjinn

    “suspected” hamas militants means civilian. It’s like “collateral damage”.

  • Sean Healy

    Not so late.

    Paul’s Christology of Divine Identity by Richard Bauckham.

    Also the question is not duality but the nature of God and whether He can enter His own creation as one of His creatures ‘in the flesh’.

  • Zig70 .I wouldn’t expect the religions to join but I’d expect some mutual respect. Nat’s think the loyalists fly the Israeli flag as a basic knee jerk reaction to their support of the Palestinian cause but it’s a bible taught belief that has become a folk based bigotry. Actually you’ll find the same sentiment in older Catholics as well. You would think that the history of the Israelis would give them more empathy with the plight of the Palestinians but instead it seems to have resulted in radicalization. Another lovely mess created by western crusade mentality.

  • npbinni

    The people of NI were subjected to barbaric IRA terrorism for years in the same manner that Israelis suffered from Palestinian terrorism; that’s the connection.

    Gotta love you pacifist avatar, zig!

  • npbinni


  • npbinni

    I thought I was talking to folks who knew a little more than this. Ah well, nice chatting.

  • RepStones

    An interesting piece David. I do however take issue with the portrayal of Israel being surrounded by states that have tried to attack it. Even the received wisdom of Israel defending itself in 1948 doesn’t hold up to close scrutiny. One could argued in ’73 yes Israel was attacked, but as a result of Syria and Egypt seeking to reclaim land taken by Israel in ’67. As I said a few years ago on here, my interest in this conflict was piqued at an early age and It wasn’t just the basic similarities of the irish-palestinian issue that intrigued me (both being colonial issues etc) it was the little tangible links i encountered as well. Such as the Black and Tans serving in both regions, as they had been shipped over by Churchill to be lead by General Tudor, or that Sir Charles Wickham of the RUC was called over to Palestine as an advisor during the mandate.
    It’s unfortunate that this issue appears to have been divided alongside tribal lines here in N.Ireland.

  • RepStones

    That’s your response? I’d love to hear which part of my comment is wrong npbinni. Please go on…

  • streetlegal

    Under cover of events in Ukraine, the Israeli extremist leader Netanyahu launched his land offensive into Gaza. The aim is to terrorise the poulation of Gaza, simply by killing as many Muslim and Christian Palestinian men and women and children, old men and old women, disabled men and disabled women and disabled children as they can while the eyes of the West are turned elsewhere. In this Netanyahu is following the same path of extreme Zionism as that demonstrated earlier leaders of Likud, such as the war criminal Ariel Sharon. Sharon is remembered as the butcher of Beirut. Netanyahu will be remember as the butcher of Gaza.

  • Zig70

    The people of Ireland were subjected to barbaric English terrorism for years. Lazy easy rhetoric, you can parallel any conflict. The real connection is an imposed settlement by foreign interests but the Israeli situation is far more complex than our wee squabble.

  • Mister_Joe

    Thanks for the link, Zig. Finally had the time to read it. Very interesting stuff.

  • npbinni

    ‘the Israeli situation is far more complex than our wee squabble’

    I’ll give you that!

  • npbinni

    That’s really funny. You say that translation of the words of Palestinian and Arab hatemongers is not a good start or objective, but that the Guardian is?

    Tell me, since when has the Guardian been objective about Israel?

    You’re hilarious!

  • ranger1640

    Zig here Ithamar Handelman Smith, recounts a meeting with a former provo who was described as “extremist” who worked with Hamas. he expressed the desire to burn Israel and remove all the Zionists. Not that we shouldn’t take what Boyle says seriously, not long after their encounter Boyle was caught with half-a-ton of explosives.

    So we can all be clear on this, republicans are not racist and don’t support terror. They just hate Israelis and support Hamas terror, this is not the same as hating Prods and supporting IRA and INLA and other Irish republican terror groups. Got it now, I’m totally clear where republicans stand on these issues.

    “Another nerve-racking encounter was with Danny Boyle, a pro-Palestinian terrorist and former member of the Irish Republican Army, who spent 20 years in prison. “I knew he was an extremist, but I didn’t know just how extreme. He was terribly violent in his speech. He said Israel had to be burned down and all the Zionists thrown out of there. I’m not a typical Israel who’s not scared of anything, but Itai Lev [Handelman Smith’s collaborator in the direction of the film] said to him, ‘Don’t talk that way. Either you talk like a human being or you leave us alone.’ So Boyle asked, ‘What do you want, to come to my home and drink tea?’ And Itai said yes. I got nervous and I asked him in Hebrew, ‘Are you crazy? They’ll abduct us – this guy works with Hamas.’

    “But Itai insisted and we did go to his home, in the scariest neighborhood in Londonderry, which is spookier than Belfast. In the end, only a very small bit of that conversation with him made it into the film. And a month and a half after we met with him, the guy went to prison because he was caught in a car carrying half-a-ton of explosives.”

  • npbinni

    Isn’t it a strange world we live in?

    While Boko Haram Muslim marauders slaughter 100’s of villagers in a village in Nigeria today; and IS Caliphate Muslims execute 270 people at a gas field in Syria; and their compatriots give Iraqi Christians in Mosul until midday, today, to either convert to Islam, pay a hefty, impossible tax, or die, that the only thing that people in cities in the ‘civilised’ world are interested in is condemning Israel for protecting itself from murderous assaults by Palestinian Muslim terrorists.

    How warped have we become?

  • Sean Healy

    Apparently it’s all the fault of the ‘Western crusader mentality’. 🙂

  • Mister_Joe

    So warped that a commenter on a blog can unashamedly tell a whopping lie about the general population of cities.

  • RepStones

    Actually it’s nothing to do with Guardian, it’s simply carrying a conversation between two people where one highlights the rather crude and selective nature of MEMRI’s work. The other link merely highlights the dubious nature of MEMRI’s backers and finances.
    Furthermore one could take many a racist hateful statement from Israeli politicians and rabbis and do what MEMRI seeks to do.
    You might find me hilarious but I’m nowhere near as funny as somebody who links to MEMRI.

  • RepStones

    Anyone with an interest in the middle east is aware of the mendacity of MEMRI, whose goal is not objective translations but something much more sinister…

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    I find the transference
    of NI’s situation to Israel/Palestine’s jaw dropping.

    I feel that
    some nationalists try to compare their lot in life to that of the Palestinians.
    If one simply ticks a few comparative boxes then perhaps, but if one looks at
    the situation properly then it’s apples and pears.

    I’m sure
    there’s some MOPE types (and no, I don’t use the term lightly in this instance)
    that compare the Jewish resettlement to James VI/I’s ‘OPERATION: KILL TWO
    that’s daft:

    Palestine was
    settled with a traumatised group of people’s from the different Europes who belatedly
    realized that you can’t sit out some of the (alarmingly) frequent persecutions.

    They vowed
    never to be victims ever again.

    Reavers/borderers/Gaels/others that settled ulster at least had something in
    common with lawless Ulster (hence the number of Catholic conversions to
    Presbyterianism at first).

    They were
    hardly strangers or aliens (well, not all of them)

    In fact, some
    of the Scots in Ulster (McDonnells) were more rabidly ‘pro rebellion’ than some
    of the locals, McDonnells couldn’t resist a chance to have a go at Clan
    Campbell (who had helped ‘plant’ Ulster, with Gaels as well, ironically)

    Not only
    that, when the locals had their own ‘Intifada’ in 1641 it exempted some of
    these settlers.

    I believe
    (weirdly enough) that banking/financial practices were also involved in provoking
    the 1641 rebellion.

    Both ‘narratives’
    are all mispackaged bollocks but both sides are happy with it.


    In contrast,
    for the Palestinians, the first waves of Jewish settlers must have been very,
    very alien.

    so (Jewish arabs notwithstanding, pedants).

    And as for
    loyalists supporting Israel?!

    I mean, Israel
    was one of the first places to throw off British overlordship by sending
    soldiers home in body bags, I mean the sheer hypocrisy of it.

    How can they give Israel the thumbs up and still
    condemn the IRA so much? I’d be surprised if the Israeli terrorists/freedom
    fighters/young men & women caught in the time & circumstances didn’t
    inspire The Beard et al.

    In the old
    school vernacular of my area “wise up the hawf a yens!” (“please attribute some
    time for introspective analysis neighbours”).

    I feel sorry
    for the Palestinians, they have a boot on their collective neck.

    I have
    sympathy for the Israelis too.

    No matter
    what they do, from now until the end of time someone, somewhere will want them
    eradicated, but they’ve had experience of eradication and are determined that
    it won’t happen them again.

    It is a
    clusterf*ck that will be very difficult to solve, if it can be solved.

    Ulster on the
    other hand probably could be solved but everyone wants to solve it on their own
    terms, which, by definition means that it won’t be solved.

    Go figure.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    “Palestine was
    settled with traumatised group of people’s “, I can’t edit this Disqus malarkey…

  • npbinni
  • Mirrorballman

    Resistance to military/blockade/siege/occupation is fully justified – Just ask the French 🙂

  • Mirrorballman

    member of Britain first??

  • Mirrorballman

    The rabid Islamophobia on display from some posters here would shame members of Britain first.

  • Abucs

    Joe, 67% of the Christian civilisation had been conquered before the call of the first crusade. At the time of the first crusade, Spain had been colonised for centuries, southern Italy was occupied and Egypt was still a majority Christian country that was slowly being extinguished. Tens of thousands of Christian slaves were held throughout the Muslim world after being taken from the coastlines of European lands. Also Christian pilgrims to Jerusalem were murdered and 30 years before the first crusade the Muslim Turks over-run much of the jewel of Christianity of Byzantinium which had been Christian for a thousand years since the apostolic times.

    Think of ISIS on steroids, that was what caused the Christian crusades.

    Muhammad himself took part in 58 battles and the warring continued well after his death and they have lasted down to the present day, especially on the borders of non-Muslim populations. To suggest it is all self-defence and the fault of the Christian crusades is not credible. Much of the antiquated anti-Christian mentality (probably including your author) doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

  • npbinni

    Hi guys, here’s some content from Hamas’s Facebook page. makes for interesting reading, if you know Arabic. If you don’t, here’s a translation:

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    I always had some small pride in the fact that NI wasn’t a cold house for Jews:

    Aw well, there goes that pride…

  • Mike the First


    I’ve read three of Karen Armstrong’s books (her History of God, History of Jerusalem, and life of Muhammad), and very interesting they are indeed, but in doing so I came to realise she’s hugely one-sided when it comes to the West and Islam and not terribly credible many of her assertions ( see
    By the way if you think aggressive wars between ‘Islam’ and ‘the West’ or ‘Christendom’ started with the Crusades, you need to look back a few centures further and explain for example Al-Andalus the Battle of Tours – never mind the conquests Abacus talks about.
    Taking down stereotypes about jihad, etc doesn’t need to mean simply flipping a black-and-white worldview around the other way as Armstrong has tended to do.

  • Mister_Joe

    Thanks, Mike for your critique. I have only read the one book and I was considering getting the others from the library. Maybe not.

  • I’m Trending on Twitter


  • Jag

    Israel confiscates another 1,000 acres in the West Bank.

    In the past month, there will, on average have been an extra 1,500 new settlers in the West Bank.

    Can you really not tell what it is yet?

  • Tacapall

    “Sir Ronald Storrs, the first Governor of Jerusalem, certainly had no
    illusions about what a “Jewish homeland” in Palestine meant for the
    British Empire: “It will form for England,” he said, “a little loyal
    Jewish Ulster in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism.”

    “The parallels between Israel and Ireland are almost eerie, unless one
    remembers that the latter was the laboratory for British colonialism. As
    in Ulster, Israeli settlers in the Occupied Territories have special
    privileges that divide them from Palestinians (and other Israelis as
    well). As in Ireland, Israeli settlers rely on the military to protect
    them from the “natives.” And as in Northern Ireland, there are political
    organizations, like the National Religious Party and the Moledet Party,
    which whip up sectarian hatred, and keep the population divided. The
    latter two parties both advocate the forcible transfer of all Arabs
    Palestinians and Israelis alike to Jordan and Egypt

    The Israelis would do well to remember the Irish poet Patrick Pearse’s
    eulogy over the grave of the old Fenian revolutionary, Jeremian “Rossa”
    O’Donovan: “I say to my people’s masters, beware. Beware of the thing
    that is coming. Beware of the risen people who shall take what yea would
    not give.”

    Someone else with amazing foresight has already mulled over this subject David.