Twaddell: A Camp Called Malice

Following on from the 12th July loyalist rioting in Belfast, the Orange Order and loyalists conceived of the idea of establishing a “civil rights” camp to keep the pot boiling at the most sensitive of Belfast’s interfaces: the Ardoyne-Twaddell Avenue roundabout.

This decision was clearly taken with the support of unionist politicians, who have regularly attended rallies and parades at the ‘camp site.’

The sight of an array of loyalist flags and banners awkwardly positioned at the interface neatly illustrates the belligerent nature of the stunt, which has, interestingly, been effectively hijacked by the UVF’s political wing as part of its attempt to relaunch itself and establish an electoral base to carry it through to the next election cycle.

The Progressive Unionist Party’s leader, Billy Hutchinson, and local senior loyalist figure and party member, Winston Irvine, feature prominently at the parades and protests, though which one (if either) conceived of the notion that it would be a good idea to blast out Labi Siffre’s ‘Something Inside So Strong protest song will have felt stung by the singer’s public expression of disapproval at the act.

It is worth reminding ourselves of the stated reason for the camp: to keep a vigil until the Brethren are permitted to complete their parade from the 12th July.

It is an entirely spurious grievance, made all the more so since loyalists have already paraded down the Crumlin Road since the 12th July: the UVF-aligned Shankill Protestant Boys Flute Band accompanied the Apprentice Boys of Derry along the road earlier this month.

The Irish News reported earlier in the week that the PSNI were investigating comments attributed to a member of one of the bands being supported by the DUP and other unionist politicians in their campaign to parade along the contentious stretch of road. Keith Tully stated that he was ’praying’ that a bomb would explode and kill every man, woman and child in Ardoyne in a Facebook post.

The Pride of Ardoyne band, for whom Mr Tully belongs, marches beneath a banner depicting the names of two dead UVF men, and in the past month numerous loyalist paramilitary aligned bands have made their way to the interface to partake in the ritual of marching to police lines at the roundabout before blasting out loyalist themes to arouse the assembled masses.

Two nights ago, loyalists attempted to ratchet up tensions further at the interface when a number of protesters and supporters broke through police lines and attempted to march up the Crumlin Road. At least one loyalist can clearly be seen to be throwing objects in the direction of the Ardoyne shop fronts (where some locals had gathered) and it was a number of minutes before the PSNI had managed to corral the loyalists back on their side of the interface. One angry loyalist can be heard berating the PSNI officers, shouting “Bring the B Specials back.”

At least one DUP councillor participated in a white line protest ahead of the provocative and illegal parade, and another one sought to excuse the dangerously reckless conduct of the assembled Orangemen and loyalists by describing it as a “sincere attempt to return” up the road.

The Loyalists Against Democracy group have done an effective job at satirizing the loyalist campaign, but there must be genuine fears that the dangerous games being played by loyalists in the north’s most sensitive interface could spark an even worse confrontation in the time ahead.

 

 

  • tacapall

    Reader your problem is you cant face up to your own tribes history of treason against their own country and monarchy that they supposedly swear loyalty to and their sectarian history, full of innuendo and fallacies in order to keep afloat an illusion that they were involved in a battle for religious liberty for all. Me stating the fact that your tribe committed treason against your country and the king of that same country doesn’t change one iota my belief in republicanism. You bringing in bullocks like R => K = logic therefore questioning my republicanism, rather than disproving my points does nothing but prove once again you still haven’t a clue about either what your talking about or the historical facts that are in front of your nose regarding the history of that period and the tribe called ulster loyalism.

    Just so as Im clear here Reader I no more believe in privileged birth and divine right any more than I believe in the immaculate conception, both are illusions to pull the wool over the eyes of the masses in order to control, just like the Orange order and its fairy tales about how their forefathers fought at the battle of the Boyne.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Maybe he’s just pointing out that it’s silly to advocate monarchy in principle while ignoring cases where the line of succession got changed by force.

    This kind of thing continues in the modern era. For example, you have ardent monarchists who believe the Crown and the whole thing is essential, but are insisting that Charles will have no support as a monarch and that somehow the crown should leap a generation. These people want to pick and choose.

  • gendjinn

    Comrade Stalin,

    There was a good reason for the Pope to support William.

    I expect better than that from you CS.

    In the heel of the hunt one PoS supported one PoS against another PoS. That is all.

  • Reader

    Comrade Stalin: These people want to pick and choose.
    They must be Prods then. That’s practically part of the definition.
    tacapall: You bringing in bullocks like R => K = logic therefore questioning my republicanism, rather than disproving my points does nothing but prove once again…
    Tacapall, I don’t think you have a point. Are you telling me that people owed allegiance to James II – except for republicans, who are the only people with any free will in the matter? Clearly, many thousands of people, then and now, think they have a say in picking a king. It looks like you disapprove, but I don’t know why you think (a) that all Kings are appointed by Divine Right or (b) Why it’s any of your business, as a republican, to tell other people how to manage a monarchy. You don’t make the rules.

  • Comrade Stalin

    gendjinn,

    You’re right, I fell for the damn thing myself after criticizing other people for it. Stupid.

  • Barnshee

    “just like the Orange order and its fairy tales about how their forefathers fought at the battle of the Boyne”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Boyne

    “Many Williamite troops at the Boyne, including their very effective irregular cavalry, were Protestants from Ulster, who called themselves “Inniskillingers” and were referred to by contemporaries as “Scots-Irish”.

    Their is this flag in Enniskillen

    “The Flag of St. George.
    Flying from the Watergate is the flag of St. George, which was the national English banner until 1606. The long established tradition of flying this flag was to honour Enniskillen’s two famous regiments, the Royal Inniskilling Dragoons and the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers. Originating as mounted and foot soldiers who volunteered to defend Enniskillen from Jacobite forces in 1689, the two regiments fought under this flag and distinguished themselves during the Williamite Wars. The right to use this symbol is said to have been conferred by King William on account of the valour of the Enniskillen troops at the Battle of the Boyne.”

    PS a chap called Walker Co- Governer of /Derry was there (for a period anyway)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Walker_(soldier)

    Some of his descendant live in NI

    Seems there were some after all

  • tacapall

    “Clearly, many thousands of people, then and now, think they have a say in picking a king”

    Reader im sure you can direct everyone to a link where there is proof of your imaginary referendum whereby thousands of people, the masses, choose their king during that period or even recently.

    Whats it got to do with me being a republican, well I do have to pay taxes towards the parasites existence and apart from that fact im Irish and my family have been in Ireland a thousand years before the likes of Cromwell and his kind decided to invade the country and impose their way of life and religion on the non protestant population. My ancestors nor indeed anyone today sort of had any say in the matter so your point about me not making the rules and being none of my business is as irrelevant as your R => K = logic point.

    Barnshee, Irish Scots now thats a new one, dont you mean planters and Wikipedia for your sources too, who wrote the narrative for the Wikipedia article the Orange order whenever you have cast iron sources rather than innuendo for your claims give a link.

    “PS a chap called Walker Co- Governer of /Derry was there (for a period anyway)”

    One person out of how many loyal sons of ulster ? The pauper turned Princes army was composed of mercenaries and ex convicts from all over Europe bought and paid for by the then Pope, investors and quislings from London and financed by the present day ancestors of the Bank of England, Federal Reserve, IMF and the majority of central banks and global corporations around the world today so in reality we can all thank you and your kind for all the troubles and wars we have around the middle east today.

  • Son of Strongbow

    Yet this (alleged) raggle-taggle- gypsyo army actually won.

    The opposition must have been really sh*tty. 😉

  • Barnshee

    “my family have been in Ireland a thousand years before the likes of Cromwell and his kind decided to invade the country and impose their way of life and religion on the non protestant population. My ancestors nor indeed anyone today sort of had any say in the matter so your point about me not making the rules and being none of my business is as irrelevant as your R => K = logic point.”

    Congratulation on the comprehensive nature of your family tree I am amazed that the written record predates the printing press –a truely amazing feat

    I think you will find that (what passed for) the Irish leaders INVITED in the succession of Norman thugs who arrived in Ireland.

    It may also be churlsh to point out -to a republican- that er Cromwell was the arch republican and his presence in Ireland arose as a result of Irish support for “royalism”.

    Just one of a long list of Irish efforts to unseat British monarchs by supporting -amongst others Louis of France- Phillip of Spain The Jacobites Napoleon — and then being roundly booted up the arse for so doing

    “Irish wounds ” are then entirely self inflicted. Had the stupid Irish minded their own business and had some of their tribes not imported Norman thugs to help enslave their neighbours how many of the “wounds ” would have been avoided?

    ps What comes around, goes around.

    “Irish slave-traders were a menace in
    4th- and 5th-century Britain, raiding across the Irish sea. St Patrick was first taken to Ireland as a slave (his family were well-born Britons). “British
    slave-girl” was a unit of currency in early-medieval Ireland– the “cumal”, equivalent to three cows (according to THE AGE OF ARTHUR by John Morris, ch. 8.)

  • FDM

    Barnshee 2 September 2013 at 1:50 pm

    “Had the stupid Irish minded”

    “and then being roundly booted up the arse for so doing … What comes around, goes around.”

    Lot of anger there and dare I say hatred.

    Is it true to say that you hate the people you have hurt the most?

    It does concur with many of the points that Chris and others on this thread have noted. It is the projection onto themmuns of all the blame for the [real or imagined] woes of the PUL community.

    It is not right, nor is it fair. It is however entirely consistent with the decades of unionist rhetoric spouting that Irish Catholics are the root, trunk and branch of all that is evil in the world.

    If that logic is in fact correct then you have my deepest sympathy in having to share an island which is overwhelmingly populated with them. Must be a nightmare.

  • SK

    “ps What comes around, goes around. ”

    ____

    Can we quote you on that the next time you whinge about Prod alienation?

  • Barnshee

    “Lot of anger there and dare I say hatred.

    Is it true to say that you hate the people you have hurt the most?”

    Rhetoric is a poor substitute for deconstruction of the facts and the argument. Recognition of the actual events -however unfortunate must be uncomfortable. I do appreciate that.

    1 The “Irish” did invite in the Normans

    2 The refernces to Philip of Spain etc are correct

    3 The “Irish” were notorious slave raiders

    4 The “Irish” came out on the “wrong side” on a regulart not to say predictable fashion– and suffered severely for each “infraction”

    “that logic is in fact correct then you have my deepest sympathy in having to share an island which is overwhelmingly populated with them. Must be a nightmare.”

    My “sympathy” is reserved for the people of Ireland who were so miserably and ineffectively led that they bore the brunt and burden of such incompetencies.

  • Kevsterino

    C’mon Barnshee, you can do better than that!

    “1 The “Irish” did invite in the Normans” You know better, It was one Irishman who invited the Normans, not the Irish (is that why your using quotes on the word “Irish”?

  • tacapall

    Barnshee once again lots of statements but no actual evidence produced to back up what you claim. As regards some Irish family roots especially my own and records of their existence, well its hardly my fault you and your kind believe the world was made in 7 days a few thousand years ago, maybe you could explain where the dead sea scrolls came from.

    “he “Irish” were notorious slave raiders”

    Produce the facts to your claims, yes people were kidnapped for ransom but using the fairy tale about St Patrick as like for like when it comes to Britain’s role in slavery is laughable as he seemed to like his captors so much he came back, maybe he thought, fk this, Wales is crap, Ireland and its people are kinder and more likeable than this dump, im heading back.

    “The “Irish” came out on the “wrong side” on a regulart not to say predictable fashion– and suffered severely for each “infraction”

    The Irish people like many other nations around the globe dumped the so called greatest army in the world then out of most of Ireland and those Irish on the wrong side in that fight well the way things are going today your still on the wrong side.

  • Barnshee

    “1 The “Irish” did invite in the Normans” You know better, It was one Irishman who invited the Normans, not the Irish (is that why your using quotes on the word “Irish”?”

    I see— Queen Elizabeth (I) saw off Hugh O`Neill on her own Cromwell turned up with a man and a dog and George III personally quelled 1797– Poor old Dermot was on his own– up against it —how did he get to be “King”

    Please dispute where you can

    “Irish slave-traders were a menace in 4th- and 5th-century Britain, raiding across the Irish sea. St Patrick was first taken to Ireland as a slave (his family were well-born Britons). “British slave-girl” was a unit of currency in early-medieval Ireland– the “cumal”, equivalent to three cows (according to THE AGE OF ARTHUR by John Morris, ch. 8.)

    TC

    “As regards some Irish family roots especially my own and records of their existence, well its hardly my fault you and your kind believe the world was made in 7 days a few thousand years ago, maybe you could explain where the dead sea scrolls came from”

    Er I am firm evolutionist ( invective is a poor defense when you cannot substantiate claims you are one claiming thousands of years).)

    Hint try producing evidence –

    “slave-girl” was a unit of currency in early-medieval Ireland– the “cumal”, equivalent to three cows (according to THE AGE OF ARTHUR by John Morris, ch. 8.)”

    yes/no?

    the Irish supported Philip of Spain etc against England

    yes/no?

    Ireland supported the Jacobite cause against Cromwell

    yes/no ?

    etc

  • gendjinn

    Barnshee is regaling us with the Ladybird book of Irish History.

    Which seems replete with false equivalencies. The Irish stole my pencil so I had to take their land, their language, their culture and stage a couple of famines and genocides to balance the books.

  • gendjinn

    CS,

    sure we’re all human and can’t avoid slipping from time to time.

    The thing about this absolute commitment to inviolable and invariant adherence to tradition. The celebrations cannot be altered, nor the routes, tradition must be upheld no matter the cost.

    If that’s true why did the orders change from celebrating the Battle of Aughrim to the Battle of the Boyne?

  • Barnshee

    “Barnshee is regaling us with the Ladybird book of Irish History.

    Which seems replete with false equivalencies. The Irish stole my pencil so I had to take their land, their language, their culture and stage a couple of famines and genocides to balance the books.”

    I note that you ignore the facts and that the Irish wounds were largely self inflicted.

    Trying to unseat a monarch might be regarded as a tad more serious than “stealing a pencil”

    The Irish were treated no worse than many other groupings
    Why would the English treat the Irish any different to the er English
    http://www.fraser-courtman.co.uk/list_of_famines_&_pestilences_england.html

    If you want to see a people REALLY shafted by English try

    http://www.highlandclearances.co.uk/clearances/index.htm

  • gendjinn

    Barnshee,

    I note that you ignore the facts and that the Irish wounds were largely self inflicted.

    Facts? Thanks for the laugh 🙂

    The Irish were treated no worse than many other groupings

    Wow. “We British committed genocide against many cultures so what are you complaining about?”

    I know all about the Highland clearances, but you obviously have little to no knowledge of the atrocities committed in Ireland.

    Prove me wrong by listing all of the mass murders/slaughters/deaths/genocides/famines that you know about committed by the English/British in Ireland during their 800 years of occupation?

  • Barnshee

    “Prove me wrong by listing all of the mass murders/slaughters/deaths/genocides/famines that you know about committed by the English/British in Ireland during their 800 years of occupation?”

    First of all get your facts straight

    1 The Normans arrived in Ireland by invitation so no English/British yet They treated all of the British Isles in the same way-brutally- no favors for the Irish -especially since they had been invited in So I suggest you amend the 800 years bit to 500 or so

    2 The English (1485 is sort of accepted as the Start of the “English” ) treated the Irish no worse than they treated ENGLISH citizens in similar circumstances- (see above)
    .

    3 The brutal activities See the Desmond Rebellions (1569-73 and 1579-83 and the Nine Years War 1594-1603, for details — were the direct result of Irish support for Philip of Spain agains the English crown

    4 Oliver Cromwell in Ireland 1649–1653 -as a result of the Irish support for the Jacobite cause was the most brutal of English warlords.– It does seem inappropriate for “republicans” to whinge anout the actions of a “republican” in riding the land of “royalists”

    5 The rebellions in 97/98 were notable for two aspects
    The prods were either slaughtered (Scullabogue) or hung out to dry (Antrim the Roman Catholics failed to turn up)
    Again joint action wirh a Foreign state in war against England (France this time) produced retribution. Hardly surprising.

    6 The famine –not the first in these Islands The effect exacerbated by the social structure of society associated political and laissez-faire economic factors and attitudes of the time and not just in England

    Writers such as Jean-Jacques Rousseau argued that “it is quite a good thing that a certain number of people should get killed now and then” in the interests of population control. Similarly, many economists agreed that emergency relief was both ineffective and misguided.
    According to Malthus for example, relief of the poor “relieves them for a short time, but leaves them afterwards in a condition worse than before”; whereas Ricardo argued that funds raised for employing destitute people were wastefully diverted from “other productive employment.”

    Millions died in Europe in the Famines which occurred after “Waterloo” 1805-1820. The Irish situation was compounded by the rise in popu;lation and the dependency on the potato. .The fate of the Irish was a reflection of he same events elswhere and the global political attitudes of the time — No special favours for anyone.

    I recommend
    (a) -Cecil Woodham-Smith, The Great Hunger, Harmondsworth: Penguin Press .

    and

    (b) Harty, W. (1820) Famine, mortality, and epidemic disease in the process of modernization. An Historic Sketch of the Causes, Progress, Extent and Mortality of the Contagious Fever Epidemic in Ireland during the Years 1817, 1818 and 1819. Dublin Royal Geographical Society, Manuscripts Collection London, UK.

    Pay careful attention to the detail on

    1 Who owned the food exported from Ireland
    2 Who were themerchants trading it
    3 Who exported / carried it

    I think you will find that identities of those 1-3 above are largely “Irish”

    I
    “Wow. “We British committed genocide against many cultures so what are you complaining about?” ”

    I would be a little more circumspect there- The most effective of the shock troops were er the “Irish” and the Scots

    Try the histories of -The Royal Munster Fusiliers , The Royal Dublin Fusiliers and particularly The Connaught Rangers (my particular favourites) There was also the Irish Arthur Wellesley amongst others a biggish wheel in the British army ?

    I think that I have demonstated more than passing knowledge of the cronology ” Irish History” The conduct of the “Irish”and paricularly that of their leaders was a major contributory factor to the events which overtook Ireland.

    My intention is to dispel the notion that the “Irish” were sitting by thr hearth spinning and weaving whilst those nasty Brits burned down their barns and starved their children.

  • Morpheus

    I could be wrong here but did you just try to justify The Famine by quoting ““it is quite a good thing that a certain number of people should get killed now and then”?

  • Kevsterino

    Malthus was such a man of the people. Good grief.

  • FDM

    arnshee 4 September 2013 at 12:26 pm

    We do of course that realise is subject to interpretation but…

    It looks like Barnshee’s version was read by him with a naval spyglass through fleg spectacles from a book being held in the air by AJP Taylor whilst Barnshee circled around upside down strapped to the upper wing of a Sopwith Camel biplane.

  • Barnshee

    “I could be wrong here but did you just try to justify The Famine by quoting ““it is quite a good thing that a certain number of people should get killed now and then”?”

    “Malthus was such a man of the people. Good grief.”

    Chaps –do read my post(s) in totality – I am merely quoting the philosophers of the day and the attitudes they reflected.

    (Malthus was in fact something of a humanitarian –for his day pointing out the human propensity for population to expand beyond the resources available to it. He was after all, an economists ” the dismal science” How wrong was he well – as Mao said about the French Revolution “its too soon to say” mind you global events including China would suggest that he was not far wrong)

  • FDM

    *We do of course realise that history is subject to interpretation but…

  • Barnshee

    I”t looks like Barnshee’s version was read by him with a naval spyglass through fleg spectacles from a book being held in the air by AJP Taylor whilst Barnshee circled around upside down strapped to the upper wing of a Sopwith Camel biplane.”

    Amusing as the image is it -its normally more effective to refute statements –

    Hint
    Normans not invited in
    No support in Ireland for Spain/France /jacobites
    Prods not massacred at Scullabogue More Irish actually turn up at Antrim other than RoddyMcCorley

  • Kevsterino

    Ok, Barnshee, I’ll lay off Malthus for now. Just so you understand me, my objection to him is deep seated. He was a fella who stressed the need for managing scarcity. He advocated abstinence for the poor. I’ve always been an ‘increase the supply’ kind of guy. He had no idea how far agriculture would advance beyond his years.

  • FDM

    Barnshee 4 September 2013 at 2:10 pm

    As stated before on slugger I share Hawkeye’s view of the white man.

    Hawkeye: He said “Do not try to understand them”.

    Cora Munro: What?

    Hawkeye: Yes, and, “do not try to make them understand you. That is because they are a breed apart and make no sense”.

    I could present you with undeniable facts, logic, figures, a full quantative and qualitative review of our collective history and it would fall on stony ground as you have no intention of letting go of the liferaft of skewed realities that keeps your ego afloat.

    “do not try to make them understand you”…

  • Barnshee

    “Ok, Barnshee, I’ll lay off Malthus for now. Just so you understand me, my objection to him is deep seated. He was a fella who stressed the need for managing scarcity. He advocated abstinence for the poor. I’ve always been an ‘increase the supply’ kind of guy. He had no idea how far agriculture would advance beyond his years.”

    I think you will find that he never advocated anything -he merely proposed the well worn saw of cause and effect. Further exacerbated as it was by human behaviour -(greed -concentrations of wealth by individuals /groups etc)

    But enough of the economics.

  • Barnshee

    I could present you with undeniable facts, logic, figures, a full quantative and qualitative review of our collective history and it would fall on stony ground as you have no intention of letting go of the liferaft of skewed realities that keeps your ego afloat.

    Please do— always willing to learn.

  • tacapall

    “I could present you with undeniable facts, logic, figures, a full quantative and qualitative review of our collective history and it would fall on stony ground as you have no intention of letting go of the liferaft of skewed realities that keeps your ego afloat”

    I could say the same to you Barnshee but the truth is, history is always written by the victor, its someone elses interpretation of events, third hand information, innuendo or just fabrication, some people just love to either over exaggerate their parts or underplay their foul deeds in historical events hundreds or even thousands of years ago. The only true history and narrative the world can take as historical truth is what technology has brought us today, real time footage, up to the minute reporting, none of that waiting a week on the pigeon or horse rider or just word of mouth stuff. The version of history I take from the books and articles I read would obviously not concur or with the books and articles you read, which side or one is true – I dont know but it doesn’t mean Im right and your wrong or vise versa, it just means there’s three sides to every story, your side, my side and then the truth, which Im afraid was most likely lost in all the years and various forms of revisionism that followed over the years

  • Barnshee

    TC

    So thats a no then

  • FDM

    Barnshee 4 September 2013 at 2:33 pm

    I will do one Barnshee to limit the waste of my time.

    During the famine Queen Victoria personally contributed £2000 to famine relief. Using the Bank of Englands own calculator, here

    http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/education/Pages/inflation/calculator/flash/default.aspx

    that comes to a massive total of £175k which is £60k short of the price of the average house in the UK. The current value of royal estates is estimated at 7.3 billion pounds. Remembering at the time QV was Empress of India, Queen of Ireland and Great Britain and biggest landowner in the UK [then and now]. With all that at her disposal to offer relief under her reign in Ireland she oversaw the starvation and death of anywhere in the region of 1 to 1.5 million of her subjects. Not to mention the emigration of a similar number to escape the hell in Ireland.

    This with an entire empire, most of it completely unaffected by famine at the time, to avoid and ameiliorate the disaster.

    If a similar situation happened today I think I as a private individual think could pull together more in funds to help the suffering of my people than the famine queen did.

    Out of embarrassment at her complete and utter disdain for the Irish people the famine queen had her foreign office officials reduce a donation of £10,000 from the Sultan of Turkey to £1,000 so it didn’t show up larger than her own pathetic aid package.

    The moral of story being you could only do that if you harboured hate in your heart for the subjects to the crown that you were supposed to benignly rule over.

    This is why Ireland has no Queen. Ireland has no need for a Queen and certainly not from that house.

  • tacapall

    Barnshee, Is de bhua an uaisle amháin mo chara. You dont seem to have any but if you like I could post lots of links disproving your “Historical truth”

    “Again joint action wirh a Foreign state in war against England (France this time) produced retribution. Hardly surprising”

    Seems then just like now, Irish Catholic people were not allowed the right to enjoy the same freedom to choose what side to be on as protestants, remind us what side loyalists were on at the Boyne and where did the pauper turned price come from and who’s enemy was that same Dutch army for 40 years before being invited to invade England.

    By the way you like Reader keep getting the “Planter Irish” mixed up with the native Irish and the facts prove a difference was made between the two sets of people.

    What retribution did your “Planter Irish” suffer for their treasonous actions ?

  • gendjinn

    Barnshee,

    First of all get your facts straight

    Pure pedantry, please do not derail the conversation with an overweening obsession with irrelevant precision of details without distinction. The Normans became the British/English ascendency, a difference without distinction.

    It is absolutely irrelevant whether your leaders were bastards to other people, it in no way diminishes the barbarity and inhumanity of their treatment of the Irish.

    Desmond Rebellions – you ignore the Elizabethan genocide in the south west and blame the Irish for it. The same with the rest of your points.

    This is the exact same crap we got during the troubles whenever there was a british atrocity “we were just tit-for-tatting in reaction to the IRA”.

    Your country and leaders committed genocides and atrocities, please stop blaming the victims.

  • Barnshee

    “It is absolutely irrelevant whether your leaders were bastards to other people, it in no way diminishes the barbarity and inhumanity of their treatment of the Irish.”

    I seek in no way to diminish the terrible barbarity I simply point out that the Irish were treated in no way different to any other states or grouping who took up arms against the English (. I further point out that the Irish were a significant part of those dishing out the barbarity in the “British Empire”)

    Irish history – continually involved in assaults on the English succession and state provides the perfect example for Einstein`s quote “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

    Persistently downplaying the Irish contributions to their own downfall is denial. Whilst I agree that its convenient to blame the Brits for everything ( especially with 1916 looming) its important to remember our old friends of cause and effect.

    PS
    “we were just tit-for-tatting in reaction to the IRA”.

    I think Shankhill/Greysteel provides the perfect example of that particular lunacy

  • Barnshee

    “Seems then just like now, Irish Catholic people were not allowed the right to enjoy the same freedom to choose what side to be on as protestants, remind us what side loyalists were on at the Boyne and where did the pauper turned price come from and who’s enemy was that same Dutch army for 40 years before being invited to invade England.”

    Cheerfully wholly approve and support you in your choice of being

    “allowed the right to enjoy the same freedom to choose what side to be on”

    Simply asking you to agree to accept the consequences of your “choice” and to recognise that past “choices” had real consequences .

    (tho I am not to sure that anyone had (or indeed has) much “choice” in the events )