Belfast No 3 District signals #Ardoyne as new Drumcree

There was a strong hint today that unionism is heading towards a Drumcree-style approach at Ardoyne.

After the announcement from the Parades Commission that Belfast No 2 District will also be restricted from parading the section of the Crumlin Road from Woodvale to Hesketh Road this Saturday, Belfast No 3 District have applied to march the same route on 3rd August.

If you want a quick view of the Drumcree approach, see Ryan’s take on it here:

Of course, both Belfast No 2 District and No 3 District appear to either have forgotten or be ignoring the call from the Deputy Grand Master of the County Orange Lodge of Belfast, Spencer Beattie at the Twelfth launch last Thursday:

We will no longer tolerate the vindictiveness of the Parades Commission and request that it is no longer recognised, acknowledged or engaged with by any member of the Unionist community.

He usefully ended his speech by saying:

United we stand – Divided we fall.

[Update] Belfast No 4 District have now applied to parade the same route on the 10th August in the afternoon. The Ligoniel Apprentice Boys have applied to walk that same route in the morning (which they normally do around this date). If you want to check if the Belfast Districts have added further applications, see here.

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  • Sweetcheeks

    How sad.

    OO RIP.

  • iluvni

    Maybe Ardoyne could do the rest of us a favour, take the high moral ground, request the parade go ahead, get the friggin thing over with and give all our heads peace.

  • Kevsterino

    Forgive me if I’m wrong, as my geography of the areas involved is weak, but Drumcree church is on a little country road and Ardoyne shops is on a main thoroughfare in the capital. I don’t see how the government can tolerate such a deleterious action on commerce for a sustained period of time. Saturdays are busy shopping days.

  • cynic2

    “I don’t see how the government can tolerate such a deleterious action”

    …but what do you suggest do?

  • Kevsterino

    I imagine that Mr. Haas is here to explore that question, cynic. But something has got to give, imho.

  • michael-mcivor

    Time for all morning and evening orange marches that go near the Ardoyne shops to be banned-the districts are doing there own things now-let the rest of us march to peace-

  • babyface finlayson

    Since the same circumstances will exist for each new application as did for the last one it is hard to see a different outcome unless the OO make genuine efforts to talk with the residents.
    Drumcree did not end well for the Orange and they seem set to make the same mistake in Ardoyne.
    I can’t see the tactical thinking.

  • GEF
  • cynic2

    “Something has to give”

    I agree completely but we have two opposing sectarian groups here who don’t want one of themuns about them and want to pretend that the other side doesn’t exist.And the politicians are tapped by this – Dodds et al by their extremists and Gerry Kelly by the need to fight off the dissers who are squeezing SF in |Ardoyne

    The problem is that both sides

    1 hate each other

    2 WANT TO hate each other

  • I think the Orange Order have made a very serious mistake.

    I’m of the opinion if they had let the fuss die down for a few weeks, they could have successfully applied to walk past Ardoyne Shopfronts in late August with only restrictions on music and numbers of supporters. Defuse the situation, and get back to “normal.”

    Weekly or even fortnightly applications with no engagement will do nothing to reduce tensions, and won’t change their chances of walking back past the Ardoyne shops.

    The only thing is that unlike Drumcree, I don’t know of a reasonable alternative route back to Ligoniel.

  • Sectarian marches through the Greater Ardoyne community are not welcome, nor will they until the Orders and Bandsmen recognise and acknowledge that residents must be consulted!

    Local people are sick, sore and tired of bigots triumphalistly parading wherever they choose and spreading their hatred and anti-catholic, nationalist and republican banners, flags, music and unacceptable mistreatment of our community!

    There is a row of shops alright, but surrounding those shops is a large community who have the right to live free from sectarian harassment and intimidation from thuggery.

  • cynic2

    Spot on Alex

    OK last years trouble was the nationalist fault but for 30 years the OO have misbehaved on this march and others at ardoyne with monotonous regularity and the blue bag ‘supporters’ are even worse. And the Nats have now split into two groups. The more moderate nats and the ultra green wont have a prod near me faction

  • cynic2

    Ardoyne Republican

    Sectarian protests at Ardoyne are not welcome, nor will they until the republican community and acknowledge that Orangemen exist and have a right to march too

    Local people are sick, sore and tired of bigots triumphantly rioting wherever they choose and spreading their hatred and anti-protestant unionist a nd British messages and using , flags, music and unacceptable mistreatment of the Unionist community!

    There is a row of shops alright, but surrounding those shops is a large community who have the right to live free from sectarian harassment and intimidation from thuggery.Its also an area that is an interface between two communities BOTH of whom have rights and interests

  • Comrade Stalin

    AR:

    Sectarian marches through the Greater Ardoyne community are not welcome, nor will they until the Orders and Bandsmen recognise and acknowledge that residents must be consulted!

    Are you saying that you and GARC can conceive of a possible agreement whereby the march goes ahead ?

  • DC

    Hard to disagree with you cynic.

    trouble is a lot of middle class protestant types dont want anything that is going to get in the way of their shallow consumerism, holidaying and especially not taking a principled stand on rights linked to religious stuff, this is a big vote loser. That is negative!

    But that aside, from my point of view – fire away – shared space i say, tighten you lot for blocking the road! there are indeed bigots on all sides – may as well grind it out together, see what happens. hopefully it will lead to something more positive via attrition, who knows?

    Best thing for those political parties that once supported the orange order would be to detach themselves from it but wish them all the best in their endeavours in getting up the road!

    political parties associating with this need to know it will prob be a vote loser, specially the fckn middle class snobs once they see that belfast lodges have fallen into the hands of the unwashed it’s over for those parties linked to that stuff.

    have to say i am more sympathetic to the orange order today as whenever it had middle class and upper middle class types floating around you felt the fckrs should have known better, but i guess now you can’t say that!

    Fire away, best of luck in getting up the road.

    Tighten the middle class elite in the ivories for running around talking about shared space and then getting found out over it when it concerns the working class, blocking the road on them via the white middle class elite-led parades commission.

    EGG ON YOUR FACES!

  • odd_number

    “trouble is a lot of middle class protestant types dont want anything that is going to get in the way of their shallow consumerism, holidaying and especially not taking a principled stand on rights linked to religious stuff”

    What we middle class call having a life, enjoying what we worked hard for.

    “Fire away, best of luck in getting up the road.”

    Indeed. Walk up the police lines repeatedly, get drunk, wreck stuff other people paid for. The rest of us will be at the beach, garden centre or pub evolving.

  • DC

    Bigots on all sides, you shouldn’t be blocking roads not now that the parade can be regulated so that orange order members walk up handcuffed to the police, with their mouths sellotaped shut and both bands and crowd excluded.

    What more do you want! I’m beginning to think the only way the orange members can get up is if by covering themselves in shit.

    Anyway for years and years and years, it’s been shared future, shared future, shared future and equality and then boom – road closed.

    Any wonder those that are into the orange order and bands think the ivories and the parades commission are right bunch of hypocrites?

    Won’t concern me as i am not into the oo and am not religious but hey ho – i’m just putting it out there!

  • The O.O. leaders in Belfast need to indulge themselves in a bit of further education.

    Interest based negotiation:
    “Definition”
    A negotiating strategy in which both sides start with declarations of their interests instead of putting forward proposals, and work to develop agreements that satisfy common interests and balance opposing interests. Interest-based bargaining is also called integrative or win-win bargaining.

    I bet that if the leaders were to negotiate an agreement that the Lodge(s) would respectfully march with no accompanying “kick the Pope” bands and no disrespectful hangers on, they would be free to march.

  • Fortlands

    I didn’t know Ardoyne shops were located in Dublin – is this recent?

  • Mc Slaggart

    “DC (profile) 19 July 2013 at 9:47 pm

    Anyway for years and years and years, it’s been shared future, shared future, shared future and equality and then boom – road closed.”

    The problem is that OO people do not act in a reasonable manner. They object to Republicans marching in Castlederg yet complain in Belfast about the right to march?

  • DC

    Objecting is one thing banning another – trouble is north belfast isn’t derry and the derry model of all roads shut except the city centre isn’t going to work in a truly shared city (one that actually flies the union flag unlike derry) and very tight shared space such as north belfast – it is hyper local some of the experiences round there. as others have pointed out closing off a road in a mish-mashed area really is marking it out the ardoyne shops as a new no-go spot, despite everyone having previously shared space there.

    the only way out is for the orange order to march up the road with a number of members – in a sanitised and civil way – no kick the pope bands etc – and for the residents to protest in parallel. once a year type thing or i guess twice if you include going up and down.

    but as we know this happened last year and shots were fired and now the police are scared to police that situation in case they get shot and now the road is blocked. and the immoral actions of those protesting against this are being picked over rather than the fact that bully boy murder men have shut the road as the police are scared and the middle-class elite-led parades commission are scared too.

  • Mc Slaggart

    “DC (profile) 20 July 2013 at 12:04 pm

    Objecting is one thing banning another”

    DUP MLA Tom Buchanan (orange man) plans to meet with the Parades Commission.

    No one has stopped the OO from marching? Only their return Twelfth parade was not allowed past the Ardoyne shops. They do have an alternative route!

  • UserAinm

    DC,

    Your performing some interesting verbal acrobatics here in order to blame everyone except the OO lodges and bands involved.

    Even if today passes off peacefully nothing will have changed in real terms. In fact people like the elderly Protestant gentleman who led the parade last week will still be there. He will probably have that nice blackthorn stick he was using to attack police with him too (easy to spot, grey hair, short sleeved white shirt showing tattoos, loads of badges on his collarrette, tendency toward serious violence). Or those nice band chaps who wore their uniforms to help identify them, will they be there too? Do you really think they should get up the road?

    There are dangerous sectarian criminals in these lodges and bands hiding behind an increasingly thin facade of Christianity. If they do not deal with their internal discipline problems and then engage meaningfully with the residents of Ardoyne then not only should they not get up the road, but the police should take advantage of the fact that they’re all in the one spot and should scoop those who so brazenly rioted last week.

    Huge amounts of sympathy were lost for these lodges and bands last week, even from people normally minded to let them walk if they engage properly, and blaming everyone else but them doesn’t hold water.

  • UserAinm

    *You’re (on my phone still since the site still won’t let me connect from my ip!).

  • DC

    Well I am working along the lines of an organisation no longer being ‘supremacist’* in nature if it succumbs to regulation and allows all that crap to be combed out where you end up getting minimal orangeism if you like. 12 OO members only, no band, no music, no crowd. The OO allowing itself to be regulated in that way would lead me to believe that it is no longer ‘supremacist’ as if it truly were then it wouldn’t play ball like this with other powers if it believed itself to be better than all that.

    *Using nationalist language.

  • UserAinm

    I feel that if they combed all that crap out we would be left with maximum Orangeism, in the true sense of the organisation rather than Orangeism mixed with violent sectarianism. Pure Orange if you like.

  • cynic2

    “the way of their shallow consumerism, holidaying and especially not taking a principled stand on rights linked to religious stuff”

    My consumerism is deep and multilayered. Its also my right to not want to get involved in what I regard as your contrived and stupid quarrel and and I don’t want anything linked to ‘religious stuff’ as I don’t believe in any God.

    Capiche?

  • cynic2

    The OO is issuing a leaflet to all its members on the Woodvale Road today and all its supporters. It asks for a peaceful protest

    I admire the action as well as and the optimism that enough of the supporters can read – some of the words involved have more than 6 letters

  • Comrade Stalin

    I saw the leaflet. To me it reads like a last big hurrah before throwing in the towel.