Time for the Orange (from the Grand Lodge through Grand Masters down) to live up to its own values?

The money shot for the Orange from Nick Garbutt, comes down to this:

It also needs to disassociate itself much more clearly from all activities which are not consistent with the admirable values that it upholds: excessive drunkenness and taunting and provocative behaviour have no place either within or on the fringes of parades.

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  • “this thread is about the OO living up its core values”

    Carl, if you look further up, you’ll see that I responded to Nick Garbutt’s opening remark, “Let’s take the politics completely out of this ..”. Er, it’s about the constitutional question, stupid.

    RTE’s Justin O’Brien published a transcript of the comments made by Gerry Adams at Athboy in 1997 and I posted a transcript of the 1996 Dick Spring briefing, a briefing which exposed Sir Patrick Mayhew’s claims about who made the decisions. I’ve already posted a link to Martin McGuinness’s intervention in Dunloy in 2005 and I’ve previously mentioned the intervention made re.Ballycastle in 2006. The ‘war of attrition’ exercise is rather more subtle than tacapal’s ‘lancing the boil’ but is complicated for the PRM by the actions of other republicans who view the PRM folks as traitors.

    My core values are illustrated in “The Northern Ireland Question – Simple as ABC?” and it’s most unlikely that unionists and nationalists would jointly subscribe to them.

  • DC

    Hi Tacapall and Carl

    Glad you are getting on and agreeing with each other.

    Here’s a wee clip for you both, careful now when watching it as people have different views than you, please don’t be offended:

  • Kevsterino

    Yeah, DC, that sure explains the trouble of an Orange parade at Ardoyne Shops. Seriously?

  • Sweetcheeks

    Ruth Patterson – an intellectual heavyweight, feared and admired in equal measure by north Belfast nationalists.

    As an Irish nationalist, I’m off to burn a tricolour, as is the fashion, I understand from Ms Patterson, in Catholic areas.

  • I was waiting for Ali G to pop up to complete the interview.

  • Comrade Stalin

    So Ruth, remind us once again why your party supports power sharing with Sinn Féin.

  • DC

    @not now john

    long comment – keep up the good work.

  • Sweetcheeks

    “Sinn Féin/IRA” – I thought that had gone out of DUP parlance a long time ago, or was Ruth just playing to the loyalist gallery?

  • DC


    if you look at this pic maybe there’s some truth in the video about residents have to come out from behind the shops to be offended at footfall on a public road:


    Shared space shut down.

    Wet Flannel has dampened and darkened the mood of residents. Dark Cloud GARC.


    Almost everyone has at least one talent, which is great, and if they work hard at it and practice they can become quite accomplished whether at work or at play. At the same time, some people have disadvantages. I think there are some people of influence in Belfast who are mathematically challenged. They just cannot put two and two together.

  • carl marks

    Just a few minor points DC, first a wee fact (you know real thing not made up) houses occupied by nationalists (I know this I lived in one for 15 years) run up the road as far as Wheatfield the only break is Everton complex and the shops, so the good Rev seems to have been told porkies by someone.
    Aw Ruth now there is a truly neutral and intellectually gifted (take note DC this is real sarcasm not that cheap imitation your pushing) person, we seem the civilised way she acted when appointed deputy mayor.
    Honestly if a confused Englishman from a little fundamentalist church who has links with the free pees and a rep for setting up right wing parties and is generally regarded a wacko in England and Scotland (you got to love Google) is the best you can do,
    Well that is sad.
    By the way I still haven’t broke any laws today, when do you think I’m getting my thread ;-0

  • carl marks

    still no answer to my question,
    Have you any comment to make at all about the OO’s behaviour over the last week?


    DC – I seem to recall you bemoaning the lack of voices speaking here in support of the OO’s stance and that of it supporters, and also your calls for a thread recognising the peaceful protest yesterday. However when presented with an open goal of an opportunity to express views in support of the OO and those protest in support of the OO, you have nothing whatsoever to say. It’s not as if the questions are difficult (such as one side of a right angled triangle is 20cm and another side is 20 inches, what length is the third side) or have a right or wrong answer (such as what is the capital of Morocco), they are simple topical questions seeking views on issues directly relating to what you have been talking about for the past few days.

    Of course one might easily conclude that reason there are no articulate voices speaking here or elsewhere is because there is not much in the way of debate or thinking or understanding going on out there as the only language which the OO and its protesting supporters understand is protest and violence and intimidation. It was much the same during the flag protests where the best that could be dragged up to speak was Willie Frazer, something of a joke figure to most, perhaps even himself. There’s another question; for you; why does the Orange/Unionist/Loyalist coalition find such difficulty in putting forward a half sensible person to articulate its position? The airwaves were awash with the grandest folly last week.

  • carl marks

    Spot on, indeed the most that Dc has been able to say in support of the OO is that they didn’t riot yesterday; it shows the depth that they have sunk too that the best thing one of their supporters can say about them is;
    For a whole 24 hours they didn’t try to kill anyone.
    When I’m house training a pup I might regard it not dumping on the sitting room floor for 24 hours a good thing, but I wouldn’t get excited about it.

  • DC

    It’s a mixed area, shared space, a shared place, the parades commission shouldn’t be blocking roads simply because the police don’t want to police the return march home as there is a risk their officers might be shot.

    there should be the right to walk and to protest especially in shared areas.

    it sends out the wrong message to unionists in north belfast, the message being that there are parts of north belfast that the state, the parades commission, deems as too catholic or better put too catholic and too violent for the orange tradition. no doubt this combined will add to the protestant decline in that part of the city as if the state has given up what chance the individual.

  • carl marks

    Or you could try to get on with your nationalist neighbours or maybe if that’s not possible stop going out of your way to offend them,
    For example cut out the sectarian jigs when you pass their places of worship,
    Stop burning the flag the regards as theirs at every opportunity and stop burning religious symbols on your bonfires.
    Finally we seem how much loyalist regard the right to travel the “Queens Highway” and the right to shared space when loyalists were stopping people from going to work, shopping, visiting the sick along said highways during the Flag protests, so please less of the mopery and get real.
    This is the way it is, things have changed now why doesn’t the north Belfast OO get with the program like the Derry ones did, start behaving a bit of respect shown to your neighbours could well pay dividends.

  • carl marks

    by the way any word when UPC is getting out?

  • DC

    there’s not much respect going around at the moment as nationalists / republicans haven’t apologised for their own terribly poor behavour in the past.

    Let’s face it was a past that republicans had given two fingers to legality and to traditional morality, this was all subordinated and the higher principle above both legality and morality was the removal of the rotten ‘state-let’, the higher principle to that being the struggle for irish unification.

    any means were justified in that struggle- usually the most immoral and illegal – and all of that crap only really ended not that long ago around 2005 when the IRA went away after it robbed a bank.

    so you’ll excuse me if i don’t give a shit about morality lectures from republicans and nationalists concerning other people lacking respect towards them and their causes. sure how long ago was it that SF republicans only came round to backing the police? not that long, a few years?

    republicans were the ones that ditched legality and morality as they believed legality to be some sort of cloak for tyranny ‘british misrule’ and ‘imperialism’ and would have had us joining up with ireland, a republic that is today bankrupt and perhaps corrupt.

    so – away on to hell with you and your nonsense at this hour.

    And if the orange order is supremacist it’s a funny sort of supremacy, i think it is a supremacy only in theory in the minds of certain garc-y republicans, but not in practice on the ground – as if it were a real supremacy in practice there would probably be a lot more votes in favour of a united ireland today in n ireland!

  • babyface finlayson

    carl marks
    “indeed the most that Dc has been able to say in support of the OO is that they didn’t riot yesterday;”
    Not sure if the point has already been made,but you have to wonder if the OO have not made a rod for their own backs, by organising such a well marshalled parade on Saturday.
    The question will be asked, why did they fail to do the same on the 12th?
    They will now be expected to keep the same degree of control on future parades.

  • SK

    DC, when did the Loyalist battle cry change from “no surrender” to “poor us”? The constant, high pitched, whining sound that endlessly emanates from your direction has been less than edifying.

    Nationalist numbers in North Belfast have risen to the point that they don’t have to put up with bandsmen or their hangers on devolving into screaming animals as they pass the taigs anymore.

    The marching is over, why don’t you go home?

  • carl marks


    Quite a rant there, so no intention of showing respect for your neighbours but demanding it is shown to you! Very interesting of course you do realise that the days are over when loyalist’s (you know those who also had murder gangs and no respect for the law, same as republicans) can bully and bombast their way down a road.
    But i think that i struck a nerve by pointing out that unionists don’t actually believe in the right of people to walk “the queen’s highway” but mouth of about it when it suits them and blocks it when it suits.
    No there’s not a lot of respect being shown to the assholes who on one hand act like sectarian corner boys, happily provoking their neighbours by burning the symbols those neighbours hold dear, then acting like spoilt children when those neighbours object.
    Now start acting like civilised people and you will be treated like civilised people until then don’t be surprised if people (and the law) treat you like the reprobates you are.

  • DC

    If the parade is regulated and sanitised i don’t think there is much of a problem.

    of course people should not engage in vulgar sectarian behaviour and if it has happened to you then i am sorry to hear that and no doubt it colours your outlook.

    why is dialogue so important to republicans and nationalists is it the stuff you have mentioned above that nationalists would like to talk to the orange order about then?

  • carl marks

    Yes it is,
    And those with Authority over the bonfires, the Bands and the OO must be there.
    Do that and you might find that walking up or down the Crumlin rd is possible!
    But don’t expect to burn tricolours and statues on the11th night or have bands that disgraced themselves on previous occasions can turn up on a parade and the OO claim its nothing to do with them.
    In other words proper talks not little tricks,
    Oh and by the way blocking the Crumlin rd any time for a flag protest (or any other nonsense) will most certainly not help,
    You stop people from Ardoyne (like what happened last year) from getting to work or shopping etc and you can forget about getting a parade up the road.

  • DC

    You’re sounding very bitter about things.

    i’m not sure if those belfast lodges should pick up all the blame for the bad behaviour of others at bonfires and the flag protests and stuff.

    well maybe you will get your wish and dialogue will open up with the block wardens.

  • SK[8.46] Well summarised, I suspect Nigel Dodds will feel the pain more when he hit by the ballot box in N Belfast elections coming up. Shinners voters are two thirds of them under 65 while Duplicity Party voters are two thirds of them OVER 65. Do the maths Nigel and prepare for the dole.

  • DC

    You guys really do have shared future processing problems.

    The reality is shared space is shared space regardless of voting bloc and as others have pointed out the OO makes up around 1-2% of the actual population, as the video points out it is a way of life that is being restricted and to that minority it “means everything to them”.

  • We need to get away from the idea of shared places since it implies that some areas are thus “Catholic” or “Protestant” places. Shared future yes, shared spaces no.

  • carl marks

    DC (profile)
    22 July 2013 at 4:14 pm

    You’re sounding very bitter about things.

    i’m not sure if those belfast lodges should pick up all the blame for the bad behaviour of others at bonfires and the flag protests and stuff.

    well maybe you will get your wish and dialogue will open up with the block wardens.

    Don’t you just love it, try to get a bonfire stopped or a march rerouted maybe a flag flown on designated days and the response is this is a attack on the whole unionist community and they are chipping away at our britishness.
    Try and get the bonfire organisers to stop burning nationalist/catholic symbols or suggest that closing roads during flag protests is not helping the OO case and the response is, “Nothing to do with me Guv that a different bunch altogether”
    And of course my flag is burnt on a bonfire, a effigy of a priest who committed suicide is burnt, or roads are blocked over long periods of time so i can’t get to work or do my Christmas shopping and I’m told I’m sounding very Bitter.
    How small minded of me after all who could possibly take offence at those things.
    And of course if i want to talk about I get some offensive nonsense about block wardens and of course a lecture on shared space,
    Seriously you could not make it up.


    “it is a way of life that is being restricted and to that minority it “means everything to them”.

    DC, I know you struggle with questions but may I enquire as to how being allowed to march out in the morning and being allowed to march back in the evening subject only to a rerouting of 300 yards over a march of 10 miles (that’s 98.3% of the route unaffected) equates to ‘a way of life being restricted’?

    Are you seriously claiming this is a restriction on a way of life? Have you been to Gaza or Syria or Somalia or the Democratic Republic of Congo lately? Do you understand why many people think you are completely and utterly out of touch with reality?

  • DC

    It seemed to be OK last year in that the parade was allowed back albeit with restrictions fair enough.

    what has changed over a year – is the year just gone some sort of an era that i have missed out on?

  • DC

    Besides what positive about blocking a road so that particular groups cant use it, seriously?

    Listen, all joking aside for a minute, the only proper compromise is allowing the parade and allowing the residents to protest should they so wish – you know it, i know it.

    banning the parade home is OTT especially if there isn’t any music or kick the pope bands and just 12 orange order members walking up.

    it isn’t your road, it’s not my road and in fact it isn’t the residents’ road either – hence the joke about the block wardens and shutting the road down on ideological grounds, it would seem.

    outside of the core political class here, i admit the issue isn’t popular and isn’t mainstream and isn’t what a lot of people in NI give a toss about and is probably only really relevant to the three oo lodges and bands and supporters and residents, but when you boil it down the proper compromise is to walk (with restrictions acting on concerns of residents) and to protest.

  • Doesn’t it say something that the OO is praising the fact that people have come from outside of the city to join the demonstration yet they condemn (rightly) people coming from outside to support the ant-march protestors? That’s addressed to you DC.

  • DC

    well if people come out in support that’s up to them but i was basing it on my own assumption that relatively speaking it’s still a smallish protest contained within orangeism most of it local, the campaign certainly hasn’t caught the imagination of more moderate unionists lets just say and i dont think it has wide appeal within unionism. moderate unionism is consumerism more into popular culture than political culture esp not into a political culture that could be confrontational – they rightly just all want to get on in life with as many people as possible.

    but then you could argue it isn’t their culture and like alliance horse trading the flag, it’s very very easy to compromise on something that a) doesn’t affect you and b) you really don’t give a toss about.

    i actually know people from within ardoyne and privately i dont think they give a toss about the parade and actually they do mix with their neighbours and that and i don’t believe attitudes are as hard as they are being made out to be. it’s funny that attitudes are hardening up despite people getting on with each other more than what they used to.

    i think the external dynamic – outside of the oo and residents – has been the threat of dissident violence.

  • carl marks

    Besides what positive about blocking a road so that particular groups cant use it, seriously?
    Remember folks this is the person who supported the flag protesters, and do you think that we need to go to specsavers , we see the same people who blocked the rd during that hate fest insisting that no one has the right to block a rd when unionists/loyalists want to walk up it, now in case there is any doubt here I am referring to you DC among others and pointing out your grass hypocrisy.
    and every OO parade blocks roads so others can’t use it.
    As long as the OO is associated with the rampant anti Catholic/Irish hate fest that goes on around their parades than people will not want it any were near them, the same people who prance around the bonfires when the flags, effigies and statues are burning are the same people who demand the right to respect when they parade.
    The best way for that parade to get up the Crumlin rd is for all the sectarian crap to stop,
    That includes the shit that goes down at bonfires and the kick the pope bands,

  • Am Ghobsmacht


    Seems like some OO fans (?) are getting sick of it too:


    To think that he’s from my neck of the woods too, he’s lucky he’s in Melbourne, they’d hunt him otherwise…

  • carl marks

    i think the external dynamic – outside of the oo and residents – has been the threat of dissident violence.

    Another Classic, the flag protests, the sectarian attitude round the 12th, what goes on bonfires none of these things are relevant, it is of course republicans fault.
    Now i am most certainly not a supporter of the dissidents in any shape or form and i do not doubt that they are making their own contribution to this whole mess, but to ignore the contribution that unionism is making and try to blame it all on the dissidents is just clumsy propaganda.
    DC do you think we are only pretending o be offended when our flag is burnt, or a bigot dance is performed outside a Chapel, when the flag protesters closed down the roads and stopped us going aot our business did you think we thought it was a great joke.
    You talk about respect for your community but when we tell you that some things that you do are offensive to us and we have a problem with that, you ignore what we say and claim that the fault lies inside our community.
    FFS are you even reading the posts on this site!

  • DC[12.34] ‘all means were justified [by Provos]. Remind me again of the line in the covenant ‘by all means necessary’ to justify fighting the King’s government to remain ‘British, but on their own terms and claiming loyalty to King and country.
    Funny how inconvenient facts are swept aside in rage to write.t

  • DC

    1921 daniel. in ireland that was the high water mark of violence or where violence could get you politically in terms of attaining certain constitutional goals. after that it was all futile as you can see – today’s n ireland is still here so it must have had enough legitimacy in it then to sustain it to this day. opinion polls still show people as content with the status quo.

  • Morpheus

    Opinion polls mean exactly diddly-squat until such times as the people taking part in them know what they are being asked about. You are confusing fear of the unknown and ignorance of the facts as approval of the status quo.

  • sweetcheeks[8.00] I believe that deal between Shinners and DUP to bring an end to the SF/IRA taunts by DUP figures was done at the Policing and Justice talks [or in run up to stormont election in 2011, so if jeffrey [a constant ‘offender’ in thae usage] goes back to it between now and 2016, we’ll know the DUP are clearing the way to find an excuse to pull out as word from the street is they’re suffering big loss of support over maze etc. watch this space, [and watch these spacers, lol]