UTV Insight: Collusion and some of its innocent victims…

Last night’s piece is well worth watching through to the end… Here’s the money quote from Barney Rowan in the third section… “You put Special Branch in the dock, and they will put the State in the dock…”

…and possibly more than the state.

,

  • News_Meister

    @Mick, FDM set-out sufficient grounds @ 10 May 2013 at 2:56 pm and an example of your pro-Unionist bias was given by Morpheus @ 10 May 2013 at 4:02 pm.

    I merely add to the aforementioned, intelligent people know what weight to give to a paricular group noun and especially wherein the poster has provided a detailed opinion. I appreciate that a singular accusatory statement can justly be challeneged but that’s not what you were censoring.

    Maybe, you should introduce a percentage bracket rule (1-100%) in respect of the weight posters seek to apply when using a noun that describes a particular group in Northern Ireland…

    THE END

  • News_Meister

    @Reader, I fully appreciate the difficulties of reaching agreed definitions.

    My overarching view is, we as a supposedly civilised society must earnestly strive to find-out what actually happened in our name.

    I can not ever accept that a state entity such as Mi5 get to dictate what our elected Government can or can not investigate.

  • Mick Fealty

    NM,

    I’m not answering it.

  • socaire

    I disagree Mick. You don’t have a pro-unionist bias but you do seem to have – at times – to hve a pro-union bias. Comes from living among citizens of the world, I suppose. Some things are bigger than both of us. Sorry to manplay a teeny weeny bit. 🙂

  • Mick Fealty

    Well, none of us are perfect… 😉

  • mac tire

    @ Mick,
    “In this case, the British state authorities (democratic or not) appear to have used their agents and informers as a cancerous gene inside both sets of organisations, causing sustainable damage over duration of the long war and destroying its capacity to think and act independently from within. ”

    Nope, nothing to do with agents, in the main. The British were reading the Nazi codes all along. This is well documented.
    Africa allowed them their first real victory and was all to do with reading German messages (a miracle in it’s own right, no doubt).

    Just keeping you up on the facts since you rightly ensure others do.

  • latcheeco

    FDM/Tac,
    So either the term unionism has now fenceringed, personified, and indeminified unless clarified by obsequious taigs with reference to a few bad apples, or somebody just threw a hissy fit because he got his clock cleaned and was flailing about for an excuse to justify his tantrum.

  • Morpheus

    “I expect that most unionist politicians believe, as I do, that nothing that deserves the label “state murder” actually happened. They certainly aren’t going to pass it through on the nod.”

    So what happened to Finucane? Bloody Sunday etc? Were these not murders committed by agents of the state? In my book if a soldier drops to one knee to kill an innocent person then that is just as bad as an IRA member dropping to one knee to kill an innocent person. Both deserve the full weight of the law and both families deserve justice.

  • Reader

    Morpheus: So what happened to Finucane? Bloody Sunday etc? Were these not murders committed by agents of the state?
    Weren’t there IRA men in the Civil service? Murders by them would also be state murders, if that is your definition. My definition of State Murder would be a murder committed under orders of the state. You’re nowhere near convincing me of that.
    Definitions, Morpheus, agreed definitions.

  • tacapall

    “Weren’t there IRA men in the Civil service”

    Rather than give your opinion Reader can you actually produce evidence what you say is true.

    “My definition of State Murder would be a murder committed under orders of the state. You’re nowhere near convincing me of that”

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/ruc-gave-bookies-massacre-gun-back-to-loyalists-28556785.html

    “RUC gave bookies massacre gun back to loyalists”

    How much more evidence do you need ?

  • changeisneeded

    Mick onceagain you show your unionist/state bias in carding what was a reasonable poster making a very relevant point. You change your rules when the going gets sticky for youseuns . The rules might be politically neutral if you applied it equally.. as my username say “………”
    Card please
    Keep her lit FDM

  • changeisneeded

    And slugger sucks on a mobile so excuse the bad spelling .

  • Morpheus

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/british-agents-facilitated-the-murder-of-belfast-solicitor-pat-finucane-29004792.html
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/15/bloody-sunday-report-saville-inquiry
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-16179921
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-19672483
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/oct/27/northern-ireland-ulster-troubles
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/2944007.stm

    Conclusions in de Silva review include:
    :: The Army and Special Branch had advance notice of a series of planned assassinations by loyalists but nothing was done.
    :: Brian Nelson and William Stobie were agents in the pay of the state involved in the Finucane murder and a third man became an agent after the shooting.
    :: There was a “relentless” effort to cover up after the killing as senior Army officers “deliberately lied” to investigators and tried to mislead the Ministry of Defence.

    What more does it take?

    “Weren’t there IRA men in the Civil service”
    Even if they were in the Civil Service were they paid to murder?

    What I don’t get is this – we are talking about the government for all of us in NI, why are you not as disgusted by what they did?

  • changeisneeded

    “we are talking about the government for all of us in NI, why are you not as disgusted by what they did?”

    Its his side. We are just taigs. Same attitude out of senior unionist politicians. Deny deny deny….

  • changeisneeded

    Unionism

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Eamon Collins was a PIRA member who worked in the Newry customs office as a clerical worker and passed on information to the IRA resulting in murder.

    Is this state murder???

    From his book,

    “My information on Major Toombs and the other reservists helped start my career with the IRA. With it, I was like a bride bringing a dowry. My relative, whom I shall call Danny, surprised me by revealing that he knew Toombs; that he had, in fact, tried to kill him a few years previously. He and a Belfast man had lain in wait for the then UDR Captain Toombs in the garden of a house on a private estate in Newry called The Glen”.

    http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/c/collins-rage.html

  • changeisneeded

    Aground Unionist
    No
    Do we really have to spell out the difference..?

  • sonofstrongbow

    No need to spell out the “difference” we get it. We’ve listened to the Mopemachine too many years not to:

    The IRA et al were brave honourable patriots reluctantly taking up arms to free poor Ireland from beneath the cursed Saxon heel; regretting every life they had no alternative but to take.

    The Invaders and their peids-noirs henchmen were sectarian psychopaths who relished the sectarian murderfest they embarked on, having nothing much else to do that day (and it being so deeply ingrained in their nature of course).

  • FDM

    The last 24hrs have indeed been an eye opener.

    I will not acquiesce in and thus condone censorship by participating further.

  • sonofstrongbow

    ‘The fools, the fools they have left us our Patriot Posts……Ireland online shall never be at peace!’

  • SK

    Ever go to a nightclub with a ratio problem and see a “ladies drink for free” poster stuck on the wall? It’s usually put there by some canny landlord who knows it’s good for business to ensure a decent mix of punters on his premises.

    I’d assume that Mick is running his establishment in a similar way. His going concern is top-heavy with nationalists. Apparently he hopes to redress the balance is by granting by-ball after by-ball in the hope that it coaxes more unionists in.

    The net result is that folks like FDM are carded for the slightest infraction, while the more emotionally disturbed amongst us (hi SoS) are given free reign.

    .

  • DC

    ‘FDM…carded for the slightest infraction’ – just right!

    But SK what makes you think this place is ‘top heavy with nationalists’ even if i might agree with you, i am just wondering what makes you think that?

  • Alias

    Can we blame Tim Berners-Lee for the invention of e-moopery (Most Oppressed Online Posters Ever)?

  • latcheeco

    Alias,
    So no doubt the next time you refer generally to plastic paddies, aran jumpers, and green beer the honest broker will be similarly outraged

  • Morpheus

    Anyway, now that all that is over with can we get back go the thread?

    Remember that eye-opening Panorama investigation back in 2002? It’s still well worth a watch:

    Part 1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psx9rlv6PrM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA8HoA60BFo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az31KEvWop0

    Part 2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVaKMYkguKw
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAVbeUjLPQo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18v4FVrTQ3k
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxyFQMY6cl4

    Some late night Saturday viewing for anyone who hasn’t seen it

  • GavBelfast

    Isn’t it so often the way that – the more extreme and entrenched, the more precious.

    Online, as in life.

  • Mick Fealty

    Guys,

    CIN, is a troll of long standing who keeps inventing email addies in order to crawl in under the fence… Lower than a snake’s belly, as you might say FDM…

    His black card was earned months ago, several time over… All I want to do is to keep a space in which people talk to each other… If you can’t manage that then of course you should go elsewhere…

    Your decision…

  • latcheeco

    “Isn’t it so often the way that – the more extreme and entrenched, the more precious. Online, as in life.”

    Says unionist philosophe with no apparent sense of irony/fleggery

  • GavBelfast

    I’m not the one hurling incendiary insults and hysterical generalisations left, right and centre – and then coming-overall all precious, coy and sensitive when called-on it or someone returns the serve!

    Bloomin’ pathetic is what they are, nuff said.

  • latcheeco

    Gav,
    I think to be fair there was only one person hysterical, but there were probably loads in hysterics at his antics

  • Alias

    “So no doubt the next time you refer generally to plastic paddies, aran jumpers, and green beer the honest broker will be similarly outraged”

    Yeah, because it’s part of the new convention on virtual human e-rights… Article 40932a or something like that: “An online poster with a DNS in Yankland, when found gushing in his approbation of PIRA, shall not be referred to as a Plastic Paddy by another poster.”

    In regard to Changeisneeded: this is a guy who claimed he was a bouncer who beat up a “scumbag” by the name of Robert McCartney (later beaten to death by the Shinners) for carrying an iron bar. In common with other Shinner supporters, he sees it as his brainwashed duty to undermine the reputations of the victims of the Shinners in order to protect its reputation.

    Birds of a feather…

  • latcheeco

    Alias,
    The point is that because you disagree with someone doesn’t mean-or at least shouldn’t if Mick was in any way neutral or even consistent with his rules-that you get to indulge in silly name calling like a peeved five year old in a school yard while far more oratorically gifted and interesting contributors get carded for the crime of not making distinctions between good unionists and bad unionists in referring to unionism

  • Alias

    Well, actually, I didn’t call you a “Plastic Paddy”. You called yourself that, so don’t blame me for the outward projection of inner insecurities.

    There is a long established and rather ignoble tradition of Yanks – who simply don’t understand the nature of the Shinners’ sectarian murder campaign – expressing support for that campaign. In my opinion, you fit into that tradition.

    Now I know you’d like to see me ‘carded’ for my lack of oratorical gifts and interesting things to say, presumably, and not because you harbour malice toward those who don’t share your cheerleading tendencies but I’m not going to bite the bait there. You’d have to put some meat on the hook for that to happen and not just another one of your bitter tears which dissolve easily into the pond. 😉

  • Alias

    “if Mick was in any way neutral or even consistent with his rules”

    Incidentally, this accusation of bias on your part – no doubt the result of a need to bond from afar with other mope types closer to home – is easily shown as paranoia by pointing out that I’ve received plenty of Yellow cards, and even two Red cards.

    When making accusations of that sort you really should try to back them up with examples that aren’t entirely imaginary and don’t end up proving the opposite of your claim, no?

  • latcheeco

    Alias,
    . Here is a quality post of yours from the last Gerry thread -the one where you were left mumbling to yourself at the end with four posts in row :
    “Two Americans in a row cheerleading for the Shinners? Shillelaghs, green beer, and Aran sweaters”

    Apologies for slightly misquoting you originally-it was blackthorn not plastic 🙂

  • Mick Fealty

    For the record, latch, I don’t think, is American by birth. But why does it matter alias? I don’t believe in giving out cards willy nilly. The only reason FDM got one was for refusing to listen to the ref.

    I’m not sure I’ve made myself clear on the blood libel point I was trying to make. It may need a separate post. The simplest way to describe it is as a cognitive bias on FDM’s part called the outgroup homogeneity bias (http://goo.gl/X8cR4)

    In shorthand: “we are diverse, they are the same”. In FDM’s case it is Unionists that are all the same. For others it’s Republicans, and yet again others, socialists, Jews, gypsies.

    All these groups do have some important characteristics in common or they would not be in the same group. The bias only kicks in when you start to treat the whole group as though it were the sum of any given single part.

  • RepublicanStones

    Weren’t there IRA men in the Civil service? Murders by them would also be state murders, if that is your definition.

    Yeah, i mean if you’re saying the DVLA was involved in a conflict with the IRA and members of the DVLA conspired in murder whilst the upper echelons protected them, and refused full and open investigations, then you may have a point.

    My definition of State Murder would be a murder committed under orders of the state.

    What is your definition of ‘the state’? is it its leader? is it its legislature? is it its various security services?
    No doubt unionists will insist that unless there are minutes released from 10 Downing street in which the Prime Minister of the day him or herself explicitly states their support for collusion then it never happened. Plausible deniability zooms right over their heads, which is amazing considering how high up they are in those ivory towers.
    Nudge nudge, wink winkery was the order of the day, as is evidenced by the recent Mau Mau revelations and the attempted disposal of the damning evidence.
    There is little hope of moving forward and healing as a society if this head in the sand routine is going to continue to be the default setting for unionists when the dreaded word ‘collusion’ rears its well documented head.

  • BluesJazz

    The security services have to deal with fundamentalist loony terrorists in a pragmatic manner. Bin Laden, Finucane, Lenny Murphy,Mairhead Farrell, Bobby Sands, David Koresh, whatever.
    If the law has to be ‘stretched’, Dirty Harry style, so be it.

    They’re no different than Stuart Hazell
    .
    Justice is served on several plates by the state.

    Only the latter escaped (so far).

  • Morpheus

    @BlueJazz

    “If the law has to be ‘stretched’, Dirty Harry style, so be it.”

    What if some shady, nameless character decided that your name should be on a list somewhere and decided that Dirty Harry should give you a call? Or your brother? Or your Father?

    The evidence for state collusion – even from the mouths of the loyalists who said they got so much intelligence they didn’t know what to do with it all – is all over the place and that’s just the stuff that they got caught for (for now)

    It’ll all come out in the wash soon enough