If you live in a glass house, don`t throw stones…at UKIP

Much ado about Ken Clarke`s comments on `UKIP clowns, closet racists and fruitcakes` over the weekend.  It is amazing however what turns up when you Google various configurations of the words Labour, Tory, racist, nazi & BNP.

For example, BNP leader Nick Griffin’s father was a Welsh Tory aide to Ian Duncan Smith in 2001, who discussed  ‘voluntary repatriation of immigrants’ .  Add to that a raft of Labour and Tory members defecting to the BNP and vice versa, lots of controversial comments all round.

The Times ran with the story that three UKIP candidates appear on a previously leaked BNP list but failed to mention that the same list contains the names of people who have been Tory, Labour, Lib Dem and Green party members.  Nor did it mention the BNP recently warned `Beware UKIP Zionists`on it`s website which was picked up by The Commentator

Labour too have gone on the attack, which rather interestingly seems to have concluded that UKIP are taking their votes as much as splitting the vote on the right.

It will be very interesting to follow the local elections in England this week as it seems the other three main parties are starting to get a little scared of UKIP`s eclectic mix of working people`s conservativism and libertarianism (small government, low taxes, no tax for those on the minimum wage).

Nigel Farage was on BBC Question Time on Thursday night and as usual seemed to be dictating the narrative of debate.

I attended the TUV conference in Cookstown last year specifically to hear Liverpudlian UKIP MEP Paul Nuttall speak.

He seemed to be holding out for a UKIP / TUV pact for the 2014 Euro elections which might actually appeal….

 

  • Harry Flashman

    “First they ignore you, then they mock you, then they fight you, then you win.”

    UKIP are apparently now at stage three. We’ll see in next week’s local elections and the Euro elections later whether they’re approaching stage four.

    The liblabcon three-headed donkey is getting rattled.

  • David Crookes

    Mr Clarke’s utterly barbarous language may be taken as a sign of how scared the three-headed donkey really is.

  • Jimmy Sands

    It’s still the BNP with a tie on.

  • Harry Flashman

    Jimmy, the insults stage is over, it failed, they’ve moved on to stage three now.

    Whether stage four is imminent we’ll determine from the upcoming elections.

  • Jimmy Sands

    Depression?

  • Harry Flashman

    For whom? We’ll see in the next few weeks.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I’m noting some of the same people here who predicted an easy Romney victory a few months ago are back here predicting that UKIP are going to sweep the board.

    UKIP will almost certainly pick up council seats galore. That doesn’t indicate that they will have staying power as a political force, or that they will win significant seats in a general election. For example a few years ago the BNP (I’m not comparing their policies, just the electoral history) took control of Dagenham council at one point and then, a short time later, lost every single seat, which is exactly what happens across Europe every time a protest party is elected – the voters quickly discover they are incompetent and throw them out.

    Farage is certainly a convincing and skilled performer and he seems to have the Tories in a bit of a panic. UKIP aren’t likely to disappear but due to the FPTP system, their potential at this stage will be limited to splitting the right-wing vote and allowing Labour into government – a fact the Tories will be sure to press home in 2015.

  • Harry Flashman

    I don’t see anyone here predicting UKIP will sweep the board CS, that’s a straw man.

    What they will do – are doing – is acting as a gadfly to break up the liblabcon, slightly-right-of-left-of-right-of-left-of-centre, focus-group driven, media friendly, don’t frighten the horses, mind-numbingly dreadful, “consensus” (consensus for whom? North London media types?) politics that has bedeviled UK politics since Tony Blair took over the Labour Party twenty years ago.

    Enough already! Let the Liberal Party occupy the centre ground and allow the Tory Party to once again be conservatives and the Labour Party to start advocating socialism again.

    The passing of Maggie brought back memories of when politicians believed in convictions and stopped huddling for the centre ground mish mash.

    If the elections do show a surge for UKIP that would be great, if George Galloway’s Respect Party gives Labour a kick up the arse even better, the Greens, Muslim parties, yes the BNP, anything to drag British politics out of its stupefying, two-decade torpor.

    Bring it on.

  • Harry Flashman

    By the way CS, totally off topic but an interesting point on the Romney vote, I make no judgement one way or the other but point out how immigration matters in politics, matters a great deal.

    If the US electorate had the same demographic profile as it had when Reagan won in 1980, well within my politically-aware lifetime and yours too I’m sure, Romney would have won with a landslide. Romney swept the board with all ages and classes of white voters, however as has often been gleefully pointed out here (why people should be so vindictively anti-white voters I’m never entirely sure), the white vote has been massively eroded by new immigrants to the US.

    Is it not perfectly legitimate therefore for followers of a political ideology, which sees its ideological opponents (in the US and UK) importing its voters from overseas to win elections it would otherwise lose, to express some concern about this fact?

    Or is that simply “RACIST!!!!!!!!”?

  • Greenflag

    @harryflash

    ‘Romney swept the board with all ages and classes of white voters, ‘

    Not much use to any future GOP candidate when fewer of those older white voters will be around to vote . Incidentally it was the white working class vote in a number of the key swing states which in the end won the election for Obama .

    A significant section of white ‘working class ‘ vote in the deep south has not yet evolved to the state whereby it can vote for it’s economic interest above it’s preference for skin colour.

    More importantly for future elections Obama won a great majority of votes from the under 45’s as compared to Romney’s majority with the over 45’s . Obama’s victory and lets face it it was adifficult in the circumstances given the problems of the USA economy -was won despite a drop in turnout .

    And that ‘drop’ made the election result closer than it would have been . Subsequent to the election a survey of non voters ( all races , ages and classes ) showed that had they voted they’d have supported Obama by 80% versus 20% for Romney .

    Which fact informs that the result for the GOP was worse than the official results showed .

    And that’s why the GOP is scurrying to be seen as favouring immigration reform .

    ‘Is it not perfectly legitimate therefore for followers of a political ideology, which sees its ideological opponents (in the US and UK) importing its voters from overseas to win elections it would otherwise lose, to express some concern about this fact?

    Or is that simply “RACIST!!!!!!!!”?’

    No Harry it’s not racist just stupid . Capital always wants ‘cheap labour ‘ wherever possible . Thus the American slave trade among others in the 17th/18th and 19th centuries . The death tolls in both world wars ‘depopulated ‘Europe by 100 million -skewed population growth and overall reduced the probable otherwise European market by some 300 million people .This shortfall of labour had to be made up from somewhere and if Europeans are unwilling to produce the numbers needed then they have to come from somewhere else .Thats not racism it’s just crude market economics -supply and demand .

    But you have it arse backwards with the ideology favouring large scale immigration . Admittedly the white ‘working class ‘ in both Europe and the USA does not favour immigration due to downward pressure being exerted on their incomes and this is also due to other factors than just immigration. However it has been to the advantage of the ‘white ‘ corporate class to have large scale immigration as they are by and large at least in the first and maybe second generations ‘timid ‘ enough to accept their lot in the ‘west ‘ as compared to less security back home wherever that is.

    This issue has been growing for about 50 years since the mid 1960’s when the first signs of labour shortage were seen as inhibiting economic growth in the UK, USA , Germany and France . It has now reached the stage whereby these economies and ironically their remaining white working and middle classes are now dependent on these younger immigrants to pay for their (white ) pensions .Just as importantly these new immigrants even in Ireland are helping many of these countries from a precipitous decline while also shoring up a more geriatric profile .

    Only France and Sweden have managed to turn around the population decline by means of ‘welfare ‘ encouragement to people to have ‘children ‘.

    UKIP will fail for two reasons -One is that it is and will be even more so in the future impossible for a country the size of the UK to be ‘independent ‘ in the sense in which that idea is conveyed to British voters . Even if the Eurozone were to collapse that would be no less true and the same would apply to Germany, France , Italy , Spain etc.

    Worlds a changin Harry – ain’t goin back except there is a similarity to the competitive world of 1913 except now there are just different main players .

  • Harry Flashman

    Greenie, Romney won a majority of all white age groups, not just the older ones. I’ll need to dig out the figures but like I say in a 1980-electorate Romney would have won with a Reagan-like landslide.

    Your usual maundering about capitalism is irrelevant. It is the conservative right who are demanding an end to mass immigration in both the US and UK, the liberal-left are keen to maintain high levels of immigration, particularly of low-skill, uneducated immigrants because that furthers their political agenda and widens their support base.

    The Labour Party as good as admitted that’s what they were doing when they chose to “rub the conservatives’ noses” in high immigration.

    If you believe that importing poverty and ignorance from third world countries in order to win captive voters won’t lead to trouble in the future you must be very naive.

  • Harry Flashman

    No, unassimilated mass immigration won’t cause any problems in the future, it’ll all be a ‘culturally-enriched’ liberal utopia I tell ya.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/apr/30/six-plead-guilty-plot-edl

  • Jimmy Sands

    “For example a few years ago the BNP (I’m not comparing their policies, just the electoral history) took control of Dagenham council”

    I think there would have been quite a splash had that happened.

  • Jimmy Sands

    “The Labour Party as good as admitted that’s what they were doing when they chose to “rub the conservatives’ noses” in high immigration.”

    Right wing conspiracy theory #94

  • Harry Flashman

    “Right wing conspiracy theory #94”

    Google “Andrew Neather” and then come back and apologise Jimmy.

  • Jimmy Sands
  • Harry Flashman

    In the Guardian (quelle surprise) Neather backtracked from what he had quite clearly and explicitly said when he realised he had let the cat out of the bag but the fact remains he said what he said.

    Labour were rubbing Tories’ noses in immigration and they knew it.

    We all know it now, not that we knew all along, and no amount of self-serving dissembling will change the fact.

    When the Democrats and Labour can’t convince the electorate they simply import a new client electorate to get their way. Was it Berthold Brecht who made a satire about this in Communist East Germany? Except with the left it’s never satire.

  • Jimmy Sands

    “In the Guardian (quelle surprise)”

    It’s a report of a Standard article which is no longer online in which he attacked those of you determined to go quote mining in a desperate attempt to bolster your paranoid race baiting.

  • Jimmy Sands
  • Greenflag

    @ harry flashman,

    ”I’ll need to dig out the figures but like I say in a 1980-electorate Romney would have won with a Reagan-like landslide..

    Probably not . Romney’s Mormon background back then would have prevented him from getting the nomination particularly among Southern white evangelicals of the time. .
    Secondly his opponent would not have been an Obama and an African American would not have made it to the VP slot never mind winning a Presidential nomination .

    ‘Your usual about capitalism is irrelevant. ‘

    Its actually very relevant .It’s what primarily led to Romney’s defeat . The identification of Romney with the 1% elite and the banksters plus his disdain for that 47% of Americans whom he categorised as losers – all of that plus his offshore Cayman accounts -and his Bain Capital ties -all of the above made him non electable . The experience of what I call modern day financial sector led plutocratic capitalism has divided the USA much like it has divided the UK although in the latter it is a North /South divide whereas in the USA its a East Coast /West Coast plus North Central v the South and South west .

    If Hilary Clinton gets the next Democratic nomination for President the GOP might as well nominate Yogi Bear for they’ll be wiped out .

    ‘If you believe that importing poverty and ignorance from third world countries’

    What a stupid remark Harry -you should be ashamed of yourself . Its a fact that without students from the developing world such as China and India and elsewhere most American and British faculties of science and engineering and mathematics would not exist or would be half the size they are now assuming they could still be viable .

    While I agree that uncontrolled immigration or even legal immigration above perhaps 10-15% of any population can be politically destabilizing particulalry in countries without a history of immigration it never ceases to amaze me that when the subject is raised among people and it doesn’t matter whether they are White American or Irish or British or Nationalist or Unionist or German and you ask these people if they have any children themselves – you will be amazed at how many are not parents and who for one reason or another haven’t decided to have a family .

    And my answer to them is always the same -‘Why the f**K— are you complaining about immigrants -at least the latter are providing a workforce to enable the former to have a state pension at least ‘

    Of course eventually the immigrant flow will dry up from those countries which are now developing and reducing their birthrates to replacement levels and thus following the western model .Even In Africa this is happening although based on present projections the sub Saharan African population is expected to be greater (3.6 billion ) than the current Chinese plus India combined by 2100 .

    If anyone can envisage NIgeria with a population of 760 million or a Yemen or Malawi with 150 million each -I can’t .Long before those numbers are reached their will be a solution .Ditto for a future Palestinian majority in present day Israel .

    The UKIP haven’t got solutions to the crisis of financial sector led capitalism although to be fair neither have the Tories nor Labour nor the LIb Dems or none that I have noticed . They are not only avoiding the inherent contradictions in the current chaos but they have all adopted what can only be described as ostrich like postures and that of course will end in a mess .

  • Harry Flashman plumbed the depths with Romney won a majority of all white age groups, not just the older ones.

    So?

    “White” or “European” Americans make up just 72% of the population. Less than 60% of potential electors turned out in 2012 (when Reagan was elected, turn-out was a smidgeon either side of 53%). That means “a majority” (at least of those voters whom Harry Flashman thinks worth considering amounts to one in five of the adult US population — and declining. Send for the smallpox-infected blankets.

    Now for UKIP. Get this straight: it’s a protest vote — one up from Monster Raving Loonydom. This is mid-term. For years now the Tory rightwing media have blamed all woes on the bogey “Europe”: hence about the only plank UKIP has.

    Let’s consider UKIP’s own definition of itself: a “Libertarian, non-racist party seeking Britain’s withdrawal from the European Union”. Don’t bother with anything but the “non-racist” bit … and you’re muttering that surely anything else would be illegal. “Libertarian” apparently translates into illiberal and authoritarian (anti-immigrant; discrimination in education and welfare; anti-gay; anti-women) and an affection for gun-toting. It’s all simplistic, one dimension (and UKIP policies are remarkably one-dimensional) and jump on any passing bandwagon stuff (HS2?).

    I’d venture that UKIP elected members have a far higher than average scandal-rate: Nikki Sinclaire arrested for fraud; Tom Wise jailed for fraud. Farage himself has taken £2 million + in expenses from the Euro-parliament (his party has trousered £12 million plus exes)— and comes 740th of 753 MEPs on attendance rate. Even his record is better than the UKIP MEP for NW England. As for brotherl-patron Godfrey Bloom …

  • One day I’ll get the better of this iPad screen-typing. In the above read:

    That means “a majority” (at least of those voters whom Harry Flashman thinks worth considering) amounts …

    and

    brothel-patron Godfrey Bloom …

  • Harry Flashman

    Greenie, I’m not saying if Romney had run in 1980 he’d have won a landslide, I said if the electorate in 2012 had been the same as in 1980, Romney would have won a landslide.

    I have absolutely no problem with well-educated immigrants coming to a country, Greenie, I thought the merest glance at what I said would have made that perfectly obvious. But the US and UK aren’t importing masses of PhD.s and MBA’s are they? No it’s mostly unskilled, uneducated immigrants who are flooding in to do jobs that the natives maintained on unaffordable benefits turn their noses up at.

    Remember the idea that immigrants are a boon to the economy misses the blindingly obvious fact that immigrants get sick too, they have children too that need to go to school, and eventually they get old and need the pensions the same as everyone else.

  • Harry Flashman

    Sorry Malc, try again in plain and simple English, your point still doesn’t make very much sense.

  • In plain and simple English, Harry Flashman @ 10:22 am, there’s a plain and simple reason why Romney in 2012 couldn’t be Reagan in 1980.

    It’s given by an essay for American Renaissance by Henry Wolff. The title tells you all you need: Race and the 2012 Election.

    Aha! a direct link to UKIPpery!

    Better get used to it, Harry: they’re black, brown and uppity — many even have XX chromosomes, and want better than cleaning behind Godfrey Bloom’s fridge! — and they’re not going to be put back into the non-voting box.

    Something else, Harry. You’re badly, sadly wrong about UK immigration. The UK is proportionately, at best or worst, lower than eighth in the order of non-EU immigration, behind Sweden, Austria, Germany, France, the Netherlands, Spain, Greece … (at which point I lost count).

    As for the EU-migration, here’s another thing. It’s cyclical. They go “home” in huge numbers.

    And they’re certainly not “unskilled, uneducated”. Why do you think we have the running jokes about plumbers? (In large part, of course, that’s also because UK technical education and training has been chronically mismanaged since long before M. Thatcher & Co. decided we no longer needed proper apprenticeships.) As for the casual rest, what we in London notice is that the passing Australian bar-tender (frequently stroppy with it) has been supplanted by stacks of helpful and considerate (and — to be sexist — stacked) Czech and Hungarian bar-maids.

  • Greenflag

    @ harry flashman .

    Electorates change Harry -perhaps not in Northern Ireland but over a period of 30 years even there they change . The demographic changes taking place in USA & UK began a generation ago or more .

    ‘I have absolutely no problem with well-educated immigrants coming to a country, ‘

    Of course all the more so when the educational system within developed countries such as the UK and/or USA can’t or is either unwilling to ‘produce ‘ their own for reasons of cost and ‘profit ‘ . The other side of that coin is that developing countries lose their ‘talent ‘ and the very people they need to help develop their countries.

    ‘it’s mostly unskilled, uneducated immigrants who are flooding in to do jobs that the natives maintained on unaffordable benefits turn their noses up at.’

    Thats part of the problem but you need to dig a bit deeper than that aspect to understand whats really going on among probably mow more than half the workforce in western developed economies and in particular since about the mid 1970’s . Summarising briefly -deindustrialisation -outsourcing -robotics – capital consolidation among some financial and business corporations on a scale that dwarfs more than half the national economies in the UN .- the reduction of trade union influence and power and it’s almost complete disappearance from the private sector -globalisation- the rise of the ‘internet ‘ information age and the emergence of significant new economies into the world financial and trading system plus the extra 2 billion ‘global ’employees . You can buy a shirt for 22 dollars/euros /pounds in any western retail superstore that is made in Bangla Desh and for which the employee is paid 8 cents .Go figure . At the top of the middle and working class ‘living standard’ epoch in the west -circa 1975-1980 labour costs on average accounted for close to 50% of all costs . Thats not the case in Bangla Desh or Vietnam or South China or Indonesia etc in 2013.

    Like everything else all of the above have had both positive and negative outcomes both in the west and in the east ..

    One of those negatives is that ‘capitalism ‘ in it’s raw and naked state is unable /incapable / unwilling, choose whichever , to create jobs at a wage level that many people in western countries are willing to work for particularly as you say when they can be just as well off or not noticeably much worse off ‘living ‘ on benefits . They are in effect in those instances behaving as ‘capitalists ‘ Simply put they are getting the best possible return on their ‘capital ‘ resource (their labour ) by investing the minimum amount required to get the best possible return in the short term -in a stagnant market .

    . I believe that in the USA some 14 million are ‘disabled ‘ Add that to the 24 million unemployed or underemployed and you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that without large scale immigration legal or otherwise from countries like Mexico and those in Central America the US economy would implode . Ditto for the UK and Germany and France .

    In an economy which is 75% driven by consumer spending then the net effect of an overall real wage reduction or freeze in the private sector over the past 15 years has led to a weakening of consumer demand and this was/is further aggravated by the continuing property bubble burst aftermath and the failures in the banking sector which has put further pressure on tax payers in these countries .’

    ‘the idea that immigrants are a boon to the economy misses the blindingly obvious fact that immigrants get sick too, they have children too that need to go to school, and eventually they get old and need the pensions the same as everyone else.’

    But in the meantime many are prepared to do the kind of work that white and not so white Americans and Europeans are not prepared to do at the wage rate that the ‘market ‘ decides . You cannot get 250 pound Americans to harvest oranges or pick vegetables from Californian fields -Closer to home you can’t get Irish workers to pick strawberries in Co Wexford .For the above jobs only Mexicans /Guatemalans /Latvians and Estonians will apply .

    In Germany home care workers i.e those attending the aged in that geriatric society tend to be overwhelmingly from Poland and other countries in Eastern Europe .

    Without them these German aged would die of neglect for many have no family to care and their friends have already passed on .

    I believe that what the world (in particular the Western world ) is going through at this time is of a consequential order greater than that of the Industrial Revolution or even the Black Death and as yet those consequences as they impact the planet and all countries are still surfacing .Mass immigration is just one of them .

  • Greenflag

    @ malcolm redfellow ,

    ‘as for the casual rest, what we in London notice is that the passing Australian bar-tender (frequently stroppy with it) has been supplanted by stacks of helpful and considerate (and — to be sexist — stacked) Czech and Hungarian bar-maids.’

    Lucky Londoners – A couple of years back when visiting Dublin’s city centre I dropped into an old former watering hole . The place was relatively empty and I noticed when I went in a huge TV screen which was at that moment showing Manchester Utd playing some other team and on the attack towards goal which I found riveted my attention . A voice called out behind me ‘Are ye havin a pint ‘

    ‘Yes please I replied with a wave of my arm backwards while watching Rooney once again miss a proverbial sitter . . I turned to the bar only to be served alas not by a stacked Hungarian or Czech but by a young Oriental gentleman from China who could have won an Oscar for his Dublin accent .

    Meanwhile the Polish lady who serves up an occasional pint at an hostelry nearer home still sounds like she just got off the bus from Cracow

    BTW thanks for that link to Renaissance – I’m sure Harry will appreciate not having to dig up his numbers .

  • Rory Carr

    By the way, Harry, are you not an immigrant yourself ?

    Only askin’ like.

  • Not much of a UKIP vote in Oxford City (from our tallies last night), but they are likely to win seats in the test of Oxfordshire.

  • Harry Flashman

    God help us are Greenie and Malcolm completely dense?

    Yes I know the electorate has changed between 1980 and 2012! That’s my entire bloody point from the bloody beginning!

    Thus my original point that immigration, which has such a major effect on politics is a very legitimate and utterly fundamental issue in politics.

    Got that now? Jesus, it takes a while for the message to get through around here.

    Yes Malcolm, I am an immigrant thus I am in a much stronger position to discuss the issue and have a clearer perspective on the issue than handwringing, do-gooders who haven’t a clue about what immigration and being an immigrant really means.

    Just for reference sake, here’s my position as a legal immigrant. I may not own land in my new home, I may not open a business, I may not even own my home, nor indeed may my wife as she has chosen to marry a foreigner.

    I must report every year to the immigration office to go through the rigorous procedure of re-applying for another twelve months. Once I am there I am photographed and have my fingerprints taken. I am issued with my immigration card which I must carry about with me at all time, if a policeman stops me and I do not have it on me then I will be arrested and held in prison until it can be produced. If I wish to leave the country I must get permission from the government.

    I do not have the vote, I may not take part in political campaigns, if I commit a crime I can expect to be deported after serving my sentence (unless the crime involves drug smuggling in which case I will face the firing squad).

    After five years I may apply for citizenship but only after proving proficiency in the language (I need hardly add that all government documents are in the national language and if I need to have them translated I do so at my own expense), pass a tough examination on the history and culture of my adopted land and then I must also renounce my former citizenship as dual nationality is prohibited.

    Got that? Now how does that compare to immigrants in the west? Am I not therefore in a very strong position to be critical of how easy and relaxed the position of immigrants is in my own homeland?

    In fact when you see how I am treated as an immigrant (and I have no complaints, it is their country and I am a guest in their land) you might not be surprised that I feel if anything UKIP is bloody soft on immigration.

  • Harry Flashman

    Oh and by the way, looks like UKIP are moving into stage four rather rapidly.

  • De Nile is de river in Africa. Denial is a natural state for Harry Flashman. De fence is de ting at the bottom of de garden. Defence of the untenable, for Harry Flashman is a spew of abuse.

    The reason why the US electorate has changed is not primarily because of immigration. Remember: that is Harry Flashman‘s entire bloody point from the bloody beginning! … that immigration, which has such a major effect on politics is a very legitimate and utterly fundamental issue in politics.

    Similarly, immigration, per se is not a major issue of UK electoral demographics. Class may still be. Urban versus rural is obvious. When it come down to manipulating the voters, pernicious misrepresentation by the press barons most definitely is.

    Again, I’d have to warn Harry Flashman that I’m using numbers (we know they confuse him). His assertion that Romney junior would have won in 1980 has to be disputed — not on policies, issues or personalities (on all of which Romney junior wouldn’t have had a sniff of the GOP nomination anyway) — but on numbers.

    Reagan in 1980 was elected by 43.64 million of an electorate of 84.84 million. By 2012 the US eligible electorate was 221.93 million, of whom 58.7% voted. That growth is the demographics of the whole thing. It’s not the Flashman version, either:Romney swept the board with all ages and classes of white voters, however as has often been gleefully pointed out here (why people should be so vindictively anti-white voters I’m never entirely sure), the white vote has been massively eroded by new immigrants to the US.Harry’s version is that, over three decades, the US voting demographics have been changed by immigration. Not so: the 2000 census found only 31 million residents of the US “foreign-born”. As for the “illegals”, they can’t register, and can’t vote. By the way, Harry, since we bleed our hearts over being immigrants, my daughter lives, works in the US, has a family, and can’t vote because she persists in keeping her UK citizenship. Boo hop …

    No, Harry: face the facts. Your comparison of 1980 and 2012 was odious and odorous. It stank. It implied the only good Republic was a white Republic, where the other breeds without the law were denied democratic rights.

    Back to the thread: consider Nigel Farage’s definition of UKIP’s “remarkable success”:
    “… are they voting UKIP just to stick two fingers up and to scream very loudly or are they voting UKIP because we’re offering positive policy alternatives?”
    Find any “positive policy alternatives” (and good luck to you) and you can answer that one.

  • Sorry about the missing /b. And also the ruined block quotes.

    It’s the amazing disappearing preview box.

  • Harry Flashman

    “Your comparison of 1980 and 2012 was odious and odorous. It stank. It implied the only good Republic was a white Republic, where the other breeds without the law were denied democratic rights.”

    No it didn’t you twat, you’re dying to call me a racist but haven’t the balls to do so because I said at the start that that would be the knee-jerk reaction of anyone who doesn’t wish to discuss immigration in any other terms other than ”Nya nya, not listening you’re a racist!”

    Grow up Malc and try debating issues on the actual points raised not on what you want to pretend someone’s saying.

    Oh and take back your deeply offensive “other breeds” remark, you fuckwit, my wife and kids fall into that category and I don’t like your repulsive implication.

  • Harry Flashman @ 12:21 pm:

    I rest my case.

    Except, unlike Flashman, I know my Kipling.

  • Harry Flashman

    Fuck off you offensive cunt, implying, but without the balls to use the quote properly, that my wife and kids are “lesser” breeds.

    Prick.

  • Rory Carr

    Where is Reginald D. Hunter when we need him ?

  • Well, well: so much for “man and ball”. I’ve never seen such on Slugger before. And no sign of a warning card, either. Such unwonted license.

    For information, Flashman (and anyone else seduced by his nonsense), I used the reference to Kipling’s Recessional in its proper context.

    It was Kipling’s comment on Victoria’s Jubilee — which is why it is prominently headed “1897”. The fourth stanza is:

    If, drunk with sight of power, we loose
    Wild tongues that have not Thee in awe,
    Such boastings as the Gentiles use,
    Or lesser breeds without the Law—
    Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
    Lest we forget—lest we forget!

    That follows the third stanza about our navies melt away … our pomp of yesterday.

    Got it yet, Flashman? With your pseudonym you should.

    It’s a warning that the great Victorian British Empire is over the hill, on the slide.

    The poem, please note, is in the precise form of a good Ancient & Modern hymn. It is a warning that the WASPs are being overtaken by lesser breeds without the [Anglican] Law — Prussians and Russians in particular (who might qualify as Gentiles) — and even the despicable French.

    Yes, Flashman, WASPs — the types so offended that Obama is in the White House and Rubio and Cruz are in the ascendant. In which connection, let’s not forget the “little brown” [pace George HW Bush] George P. Bush.

    Perhaps Recessional should be read alongside the other verse that Kipling cooked for the Jubilee: The White Man’s Burden. Kipling possessed considerable sensitivity; and recognised that one didn’t fit the occasion. So he presented it to Teddy Roosevelt, then the coming star of the GOP.

  • Rory Carr

    UKIP victories (but no Victory) will prove to be a good thing. These tie-wearing neo-fascists (copyright – Jimmy Sands) will now have the opportunity, like their BNP counterparts before them, to disgrace themselves all over the place in public forum after public forum.

    This is as inevitable as a Millwall riot. I shall try to keep a little diary as they topple one-by-one and two-by-two in tales of financial finagling, sexual shenanigans and town-hall turpitude over the coming months so that we all may delight in their downfall.

    Farage promised to bring a little colour into British politics, well at least he has brought us a gang of colourful characters. And we all know what they are good for.

    Don’t we ?

  • Greenflag

    @ harry flashman,

    ‘Thus my original point that immigration, which has such a major effect on politics is a very legitimate and utterly fundamental issue in politics.’

    I don’t think anybody is saying it is’nt an issue or to be more accurate won’t be an issue in the 2015 election but so too will EU membership ,the economy and whether the mew Governor of the Bank of England is ‘permitted’ by the banksters to implement necessary reforms to prevent another financial meltdown.

    It’s your quote below which is ‘off the wall ‘

    Is it not perfectly legitimate therefore for followers of a political ideology, which sees its ideological opponents (in the US and UK) importing its voters from overseas to win elections it would otherwise lose,

    Other than Enoch Powell I can’t recall any former major Tory achieving notoriety on the issue . The Tories like Labour just did what the ‘economy ‘ a.k.a the financial interests said they must do – In the absence of British people reproducing themselves and of course minus those Britons who left for overseas -Australia , Canada ,USA etc (several million since the 1960’s) then the only recourse was to ‘import ‘ labour .Even the Irish usually dependable supply of excess population from the neighbouring island began to dry up and in the late 1990’s and 2000’s turned into reverse .

    Ideologically the Conservatives at least the establishment did not care to discuss the subject other than row along mostly with Labour and vice versa when either were in government . The UKIP is how can I put this -reaping the current disenchantment with both main parties in a protest vote which is popular with those sections of the British white -working and middle classes who are most affected by immigration . The ‘ideological ‘ right in England like ancient Gaul is divided into three parts . The Cameroonians and the financiers of the City- the middle and lower middle classes of the South and the little englanders of the white working class who see their country changing before their eyes to an extent which up to now was not noted by the political establishments of either main party .

    What these supporters forget in their anti immigrant and anti EU positions is that it’s the ‘economy ‘ that decides who gets to live in and who gets to immigrate into the UK (and elsewhere)

    I agree it’ll make for a more interesting 2015 General Election and might even prompt the Scots to ‘opt out ‘ rather than stay in assuming it becomes fractious enough .Alternatively the right may implode under Cameron’s dithering to a point whereby Labour will prove the only safe alternative . Could be a tough call for the Scots in 2014 .

  • @Flashman,

    I’ve long felt that there has been a conspiracy between important elements in both parties to allow large-scale illegal immigration. The Democrats favor it because they have a tradition since the Irish and German immigrations of the 1840s of supporting immigrants and manipulating them by making deals with a few leaders. This is made much easier when the immigrants don’t speak the language and are illegal. The Republicans have supported it because Big Business wants the cheap labor to keep wages depressed. The Republican position is now starting to change because of the Tea Party movement, which is not controlled by the party establishment. I would like to see immigration reform, which would include as part of it not granting automatic citizenship to those born of parents who are not in the country legally. When the thirteenth amendment was passed it was never intended to apply to those whose parents had come illegally from another country but rather to the black population, most of whom had been born in slavery.

    But I don’t understand why a mixed majority of whites, blacks and hispanic voters should be any less legitimate than a nearly pure white majority. This is the type of argument that Afrikaner nationalists used to make against mixed Afrikaner-English-speaking “majorities” or that those on the Israeli Right made about governments that were supported by Arab votes as well as Jewish votes. A party that doesn’t adapt its message to deal with a changing electorate is doomed to fail. This is why ultimately those like Marco Rubio will probably triumph in the GOP on the immigration issue.

  • Greenflag

    @ Rory Carr

    ‘I shall try to keep a little diary as they topple one-by-one and two-by-two in tales of financial finagling, sexual shenanigans and town-hall turpitude over the coming months so that we all may delight in their downfall.’

    Judging by today’s Sunday headlines you might want to keep a diary on the Tories also and set up a book on which downfall comes first .

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22417941

  • Greenflag

    @ tmitch57,

    ‘When the thirteenth amendment was passed it was never intended to apply to those whose parents had come illegally from another country but rather to the black population, most of whom had been born in slavery.’

    The law of unintended consequences .

    Ditto for the right to bear arms . In the late 1700’s bearing arms meant a flintlock musket that might hit a target at 10 yards 25% of the time . It was not meant for assault weapons that could wipe out a class of schoolchildren in minutes 🙁

    The American Constitution needs upgrading for the 21 st century if Congress and the Senate are ever to regain the trust of a majority of the American people .Not to worry though the plutocrats and lobbyists in Washington DC will ensure stasis to further the financial interests of their clientele:(

  • Comrade Stalin

    GF,

    I’m absolutely not a defender of the 2nd amendment gun types, but you have to be careful with that line of argument. Otherwise what’s to stop someone pointing out that the first amendment was drafted in a time before the internet, telephony, facebook etc etc ?

    I think Americans have to stop trying to divine the intention of the founding fathers as if they were agents of God and start thinking about what sort of constitution they want for their country.

  • DC

    ‘Fuck off you offensive cunt, implying, but without the balls to use the quote properly, that my wife and kids are “lesser” breeds.’

    Spicy.

  • DC @ 12:36 pm:

    Be honest: you enjoyed that,didn’t you?

    Oddly enough, so did I: both times.

    Now, can anyone explain how we went from UKIP to the US constitution?

  • @CS,

    “I think Americans have to stop trying to divine the intention of the founding fathers as if they were agents of God and start thinking about what sort of constitution they want for their country.”

    If you want legitimacy in your laws you have to tie them to what was actually legislated or passed by the constitutional assembly. The original intention can be discerned by reading the transcripts of the debates at the time the legislation was passed. There is a means of amending the Constitution so as to modernize it. Liberals just don’t like it, because it takes time and public support. So much easier to dream up penumbras that can only be discerned by Supreme Court justices.

  • DC

    Loved it, Malcolm!