“They’ve had the time, they’ve had the money, they’ve had the opportunity…”

Refreshing to hear someone call it as it is.. and John Cunningham of the Camlin Group certainly laid it on the line last night on The View...

“It’s like watching children argue, arguing at school. What relevance does it have? Why don’t they put it all behind and really look and address the problems that we’re facing.

“We’re not facing these arguments and these historical things are not going to change the way we go forward.

“They’re only going to keep us in the past. They’re not going to keep our young people at home. They’re not going to put prosperity into the Province. We should put them behind, move on.”

And on education…

“It’s an absolute disgrace that our young people are having to leave, that we have a completely inadequate education system, that we simply cannot provide the people that can fuel an industrial programme So that’s a total disgrace that we have a divided education system. There’s just no logic to those things. And if a government is to be a government it must tackle those issues.

And finally, the kicker…

“I think it’s a matter for the whole community to realise that times are different now. If this place is to survive and prosper it needs to look at things in a new way and there’s no time to go back and do things in the way they’ve been done in the past and any institution which is locked in those traditions is irrelevant.” [emphasis added]

The senior parties decided to leave the response entirely up to the SDLP’s Alex Attwood, apparently confident he would say nothing that would threaten them… After nearly eight minutes, lacking any fresh or clear counter narrative of his own (‘people have many more needs and many more hopes than that’), I’m not sure they were entirely wrong…

, , , , ,

  • zoot01

    Yes Alex does go on and on and on…..But whilst Sammy Wilson may have excellent academic economic qualifications, apart from the current “Executive” has he ever actually run a successful commercial enterprise like the Camlin Group, or indeed any commercial venture of any form?

  • Neil

    He’s called it fine, but how do you engender that change? The parties know what side their bread’s buttered on so all that has to be done is a bit of sectarian bun fighting and the populace will fall into place and reward them with votes.

    A border poll would do it. Especially if we take the spanking that Unionists like to predict. It’s a boil that must be lanced to take things forward, without asking the question the potential answer will always obsess the majority of voters.

  • observational

    Hit the nail square on the head there Neil. For as long as the current bunch continue to pander to the hardliners, we are never going to have anyone prepared to show a bit of back bone and actually direct people when their views or actions are not acceptable.

    WRT the border poll – I must say it never occurs to me at all. Who do you think obsesses about it then? The shinners surely know its a dead duck and nothing more than a publicity stunt.

  • sherdy

    Zoot, – Sammy has ‘excellent economic qualifications’. Was he on his ‘year out’ when photographed frolicking naked round a field?
    He hasn’t even the wit to accept criticism from a successful industrialist.
    If the civic forum ever does get up and running, I will propose John Cunningham to lead it.
    As for Awful Alex, can anyone tell me why he always asks himself questions he wants to answer? Is he afraid the interviewer will ask him something he can’t answer?
    Hope I’m not falling into his bad habits.

  • Mick Fealty

    Just to remind people of the approximate location of the ball…

    there’s no time to go back and do things in the way they’ve been done in the past and any institution which is locked in those traditions is irrelevant.

  • observational

    Are they really irrelevant though? At the end of the day, people who continue to cast votes for these people give them credence, making them unfortunately relevant. Whilst they may be completely irrelevant in the real world and unhealthily preoccupied with constitutional matters, a mandate keeps them in the news / on the telly / (not) making policy. And for as long as sheeple see them getting voted in over and over again, the longer it will perpetuate.

  • Alias

    Factory owners will always to tell you that the State isn’t training enough kids to be low-paid factory workers.

  • ayeYerMa

    I heard absolutely nothing “refreshing” about what John Cunningham had to say. Came across to me as someone doing a lot of the usual moaning without addressing what the actual problem is.

    You can’t moan at politicians for failing to implement anything constructive in a dysfunctional and anti-democratic SYSTEM borne out of appeasement of those who wish to continue a war of attrition. If John wants someone to moan at for nothing happening then how about he asks those who voted “Yes” in 1998 (including the overwhelming number of businessmen encouraging everyone to do so) who enacted the creation such absurd structures in the first place through their failure to see through the fluffy language and propaganda of the time.

  • Seamuscamp

    Ah yes, I’d always turn to an industrialist if I wanted to improve an education system.

    Mick, are you actually claiming there is content in the statement “there’s no time to go back and do things in the way they’ve been done in the past”? It sounds just like the vaporous maunderings of any of those dreggy politicians.

    Treating government as a business is a sure way to lose the next election – and politicians must always think of the next election – it’s called democracy. Treating government as a business would mean ceasing to shield the old and the infirm from the harshness of a materialist world; closing facilities like libraries because they don’t make a profit; giving tax cuts to the rich so that they can spend more; relax building controls so that builders can have an easier time; incentivise people to stop being poor; shrugging shoulders at the plight of poor children victimised by your policies.

    We have just seen the malodorous Mr Pickles (he who ruined Bradford schools) having to change his mind about permitted development. In a couple of weeks the IDS version of a business approach to welfare will be unrolled here in England – without the burden of continuing sectarian strife

    Running a business is difficult; running an economy during an international economic crisis is of a different order of difficulty; running an economy while having to give weight to the sectarian prejudices of an electorate is something immensely more difficult. There are no nostrums; until the electorate changes its priorities, NI will continue to get the politics and leadership it has earned.

  • Pigeon Toes

    Much smaller businesses with less, or no Government grant support might have been able to give real insight..

  • Mick Fealty

    So, everything’s fine then? What he said might have been acceptable if someone else might have said it? Man not ball anyone?

    Two men, Lemass and O’Neill come to roughly share an economic vision of what Ireland needs in economic terms.

    In 1966 Lemass brings in massive educational reforms that bring in a nation system of post primary education.

    Today whilst NI has a good primary education system, it’s unutterably weak at the lower end of the secondary system.

    No are you all saying he’s wrong? Or that obsessing what flag flies over city hall matters a damn to the growing ranks of the unemployed…

    These guys HAVE had money, and time, and no opposition… And still the past casts the larger shadow…

    The secret of not driving into a tree is to keep you eye on the open road…

  • Pigeon Toes

    Just that he’s saying nothing new…

  • Red Lion

    A border poll only panders to the divisive society. 2 or 3 or more years of the DUP and SF slugging it out on a pointless point scoring tribalfest only takes us back further, and lets them deflect from and ignore hard bread and butter issues. This is what these two parties do best and its all they are good for, don’t indulge them.

    The main hope as I see it, comes from the middle ground, for it to challenge the carve up, and to wake up and energise those who don’t vote, and who can truelly work in a give-and-take partnership with those who have moderately different outlooks on certain issues. Come on Basil and John, where is that party I’m waiting to join??

  • DC

    Come on Basil and John, where is that party I’m waiting to join??

    There’s always the Alliance party it is doing a great job of eliminating ‘tribal’ markers within unionism in order to reduce the offensiveness and excessiveness felt by those within nationalism.

    Just vote alliance, it will clean up unionism and wipe out its tribalism by eliminating unionist identity.

    Sure nationalism will still have its own tribal stuff and not one liberal party within its camp, but so what it’s what the voters seem to want, apparently…vote to eliminate the flag, vote to eliminate yourself!

    If you do you will become more tolerable to the other side and look that’s what we all want to happen here, it’s the right thing to do and if you don’t believe that well just do it for the sake of it!

    So next election:

    Vote Alliance, vote to eliminate yourself. You know you’ve caused a lot of problems here in NI.

    Vote to eliminate yourself, come on, it’s the right thing to do.

  • Neil

    eliminating unionist identity.

    Must be very easily done, eliminating Unionist identity. If not being allowed to dominate every shared space in NI is all it takes. Look on the bright side, it’s silly season again, there are already thousands of flags around Belfast marking out your territory and over two thousand Orange parades to look forward to. Hopefully that will provide some solace from your lost ability to dominate City Hall in contravention of the wishes of that old lady you guys are loyal to.

    Sure nationalism will still have its own tribal stuff

    Show me the tri colours hanging off public buildings. Oh you mean the tying flags to lampposts thing? Don’t worry about that DC you guys win a hundred times over. There are precisely three tricolours on the Glen Road in Belfast (I kept an eye out after having been down the Ravenhill Road the other day). The Ravenhill looks well by the way, not a lamp post missed. Yeah I can see your identity is all but dead already, that 0.0001% of Unionist flags in Belfast can’t be safely flown all year round.

  • DC

    Listen i understand, nationalism has perceived centuries of dispossession and oppression to unwind from so i can’t see its voters breaking out of its conservative brand of politics any time soon, so i guess it’s just as well we have liberalism within the unionist side of things to interact with you guys and to eliminate unionist identity on your behalf, even if it can’t get your irish tradition up of the ground, just stay conservatively rock solid in terms of your demands and unionist identity elimination will be the compromise situation for you.

    You don’t know how lucky youse are!

    Besides, look here, the republic is still stuck with civil war parties more or less so i guess it’s going to take a few more centuries and generation cycles before NI can settle down to a truly shared future, well by that time i imagine elimination targets will all have been met and with that all offensiveness and excessiveness will have been duly addressed – null and void.

  • FDM

    @DC

    “Just vote alliance, it will clean up unionism and wipe out its tribalism by eliminating unionist identity.”

    DC I thought “unionism” was supposed to be a political movement? Your comments underscore the fact that “unionism” is tribal. It is a religio-ethnic-britsh-nationalist hodge-podge masquerading as a political concept.

    APNI are not the problem.

    The problem is the fleg-waving, rabble-rousing, coat-trailing, knuckle-dragging cretins who constantly drag us back to the edge of the abyss on a schedule. I would liken them to a diseased limb that no intervention can heal.

    You are the problem DC. The sooner you come to terms with that the better our collective peace will be.

  • DC

    You are the problem DC. The sooner you come to terms with that the better our collective peace will be.

    I know, you are right, of course, and that is why come next election i will be voting to eliminate myself to facilitate you.

  • DC

    I’ve an idea FDM, perhaps to speed things up for you, what we need are shorter election cycles say of two years or maybe even a year – and in between you can constantly impart your sage advice over and over and over again and then this will help to speed up the elimination process, more frequent bursts of elimination.

    You see, I am full of good ideas!

    This approach might move us on to bread and butter politics sooner, than later?

  • FDM

    What time are you heading to the parade DC?

    Have you ironed your fleg yet?

  • DC

    FDM

    I am bringing an Alliance flag and a print out of your comments, pointing out to the crowd exactly where the problems lie, i will be strongly urging and encouraging the people of the east to eliminate themselves en mass next election.

    that should tidy things up around there.

    (of course, the east belfast mp could facilitate me here by calling a by-election, doing that i am sure would both shore up the alliance base and speed up the process of unionist identity elimination, sure we are all middle class, materialistic consumers now, down with the flag, up neutrality! We shouldn’t even be here! Eliminate Yourselves! Hurrah!!!)

    Alliance’s new motto is – ‘Eliminate Yourselves’, coined in contrast to ‘Ourselves Alone’.

  • News_Meister

    @Mike
    I can’t agree John Cunningham shared anything particularly enlightening. His well-intended but rather trite “focus on building prosperity” rethoric is something we’re all heard a million times. Mr Cunningham plainly fails to appreciate, we’re doomed to keep relating to the past unless and until our state institutions afford genuine parity of esteem to Irish identity and culture – the so-called “new dispensation” must be seen and felt by all but particularly by those who still retain a devisive, Loyalist supremacist or Republican extremist mind-set.

    @DC: ‘Just vote alliance, it will clean up unionism and wipe out its tribalism by eliminating unionist identity.’

    That comments sound terribly similar to what we often hear spouted by self-serving DUP/UUP/TUV politicians foreer intent on manipulating working-class Loyalists?
    In any event, on what basis do you accept or reject that the PUL ‘heritage’ is, the English brough PUL’s here to aid and abet them to destroy the Irish people? As for the PUL ‘culture’ please advise on what basis you accept or reject my view that it’s mostly – if not exclusively limited to – endless marches along shared streets triumphantly waving Union flags while playing grossly offensive anti-Catholic and anti-Irish tunes?

    @News_Meister

  • DC

    @news_meister

    You are preaching to the converted, I am on course to eliminate myself, try drumlins rock or somebody like that for input.

  • Rory Carr

    ‘…and finally the kicker :“there’s no time to go back and do things in the way they’ve been done in the past and any institution which is locked in those traditions is irrelevant.”‘ John Cuningham

    …or, as FDM more comprehensively explains it,

    The problem is the fleg-waving, rabble-rousing, coat-trailing, knuckle-dragging cretins who constantly drag us back to the edge of the abyss on a schedule. I would liken them to a diseased limb that no intervention can heal.

    Or is it possible that Cunningham is referring to something other than the pervasive effect of reactionary Orangeism ? Seems unlikely, but then he does rather speak in riddles, hardly the image of the blunt-speaking businessman of legend. Maybe he needs to employ FDM as his PR guru.

  • FDM

    @DC

    “i will be strongly urging and encouraging the people of the east to eliminate themselves EN MASS next election.”

    You aren’t having a Catholic epiphany there in the east DC are you? I doubt it…

    I think next election we will sensible east belfast people voting en masse for the APNI. I can’t see any other sensible alternative. Unless of course they start going to mass…

  • DC

    FDM – sage as ever. i bow down to you because of your brilliance.

  • FDM

    @DC

    Which UVF are we commemorating in East Belfast today? Is it the UVF who slaughtered people here or the “I can’t believe its not butter?” UVF who also slaughtered people here. They are very different you know. Jim Wison has told us so. He shouted it I recall. Then again Jims amplifier volume control is the same as that used by Spinal Tap. Its goes up to eleven and stays there.

  • tacapall

    What are you worried about DC your identity will never be eliminated in Ireland, you might not be able to express that identity as freely as you have done for the last 100 years but nevertheless you will still be British, 26 county politicians might be politically in control in the day to day running of Irish affairs but financially they are controlled by the IMF, the same people who own the bank of England, the same people who own the Federal Reserve and the same people who own all the central banks in the world. Regardless of what identity we are and who governs us we are all slaves to the same banking elite, its only a matter of time until we will all be ruled under the one government and one union – The European Union.

  • DC

    FDM – why don’t you put yourself out there, make some observations and ask those type of questions?

  • DC

    What are you worried about DC your identity will never be eliminated in Ireland, you might not be able to express that identity as freely as you have done for the last 100 years but nevertheless you will still be British

    I know, you ever tried wearing a Rangers shirt in Carnlough never mind Cushendall. Complete non runner.

  • News_Meister

    @DC
    UVF Mythology Within Loyalism:-
    The UV/F of 1912-13 were a band of terrorists formed by a 20% minority community on the island of Ireland. The undeniable reason for their formation was, the minority PUL community sought to threaten the British Government with revolt and ethnic cleansing of Ulster if it acceded to the wish of the 80% majority of the people on the island of Ireland to assert their inalienable right to self-determination – who can deny that the large British Asian Muslin community in west Yorkshire would be rightly deemed ‘terrorists’ if they armed themselves and threatened mass slaughter to create their own statelet against the wishes of the majority of Yorkshire and indeed contrary to the expressed will of the majority population of England?

    It’s in the long-term interests of working-class Loyalists to dispel the “UVF myths” perpetuated by self-serving, manipulative gangsters and politicians who seek to glorify UV/F terrorists of 1912-13 and 1965 by muddling their true history with that of the endeavours of the 36th Ulster Division of the British army between 1914-1918. What both working-class Loyalists and Nationalists need to know and feel able to respect is that in 1914 many honourable Catholic and Protestant Irishmen joined Ireland’s the 36th, 10th and 16th Divisions of the British army and fought and died side-by-side to defeat the tyranny of Hitler – it’s unfortunately evident from various internet sources that working-class Loyalists don’t know (or don’t care) that many more Irish Nationalists than Loyalists died fighting Hitler and equally unfortunate that many Nationalists refuse to acknowledge such sacrifices because of truth has been hijacked by UVF terrorists… the ‘real’ truth could serve to unite our people behind honouring those of our fellow countrymen who joined together in a noble but terribly bloody WW1.

    @DC
    Anyway, where can I see this ‘SHARED Future’ and ‘Parity Of Esteem’ we all signed-up to way back in 1998?

  • tacapall

    DC I’ve seen Celtic shirts being worn on the Shankill and I’ve seen Rangers tops been worn on the Falls, like the union jack or the tricolour its just a piece of coloured cloth.

  • DC

    who can deny that the large British Asian Muslin community in west Yorkshire would be rightly deemed ‘terrorists’ if they armed themselves and threatened mass slaughter to create their own statelet against the wishes of the majority of Yorkshire and indeed contrary to the expressed will of the majority population of England?

    I wouldn’t rule out that possibility.

  • “No are you all saying he’s wrong?”

    I don’t hear anything other than a moan. He’s got a mechanism to assist the elected representatives we’ve foisted on the public; it’s called the Northern Ireland Assembly and Business Trust. I’ve just had a look at the NIABT membership and I can find no mention of Cunningham, Camlin or Kelvatech.

  • Mick Fealty

    All sarcasm to one side Nev. Really?

    FDM/DC,

    Quit the bitchy man playing. If you can’t speak on topic, Ill be awarding cards… And cards mean?

  • 241934 john brennan

    With 160 press officers, Stormont employed, paid from the public purse, mostly spinning in favour of the DUP/SF duopoly, the success or failure of the government in economic, social welfare etc. terms is completely irrelevant. Their main objective is keep is to keep promoting the flag-waving, yah-boo politics of the duopoly, thus ensuring the continued re-election of the same duopoly. The whole thing is an expensive farce.

    But if the alternative is 16,000 peace-keeping soldiers on the streets, should we not be thankful for contained institutional sectarianism, which keeps the duopoly’s supporters happy?

    While DUP and SF are a matched pair in double harness together, their partisan supporters remain happy with backward and stalemate politics – as long as the duopoly is seen to be kicking lumps out of each other and pulling in opposite directions.

    So it’s on with the show. To hell with the grim realities of poverty and failed government. Give them bread and circuses! But that was ancient Rome. In Norn Iron it translates into flag-waving and border polls.

  • DC

    Elimination?

  • Mick Fealty

    In your case? Almost certainly!

  • You’ve hit the nail on the head, Mick; John’s contribution is heavily laced with sarcasm and he appears to have no appreciation of the consequences of the 1998 tug-of-war constitutional arrangement.

    This arrangement has produced an assembly whose members have very limited expertise or ability in business or in any other sphere that would be essential for the development of a vibrant and prosperous economy.

    If he has some constructive suggestions to put forward then he can contribute them via NIABT; his ‘they do their thing, we do ours’ approach won’t produce any positive solutions, it’s little more than an echo of schisms in education and other matters that he complains about.

  • News_Meister

    @Mike: DC posts make clear, he curled himself into a little ball and rolled on to the pitch for a play 🙂

    @ALL: The status quo is our own fault; we elected – or were entitled to elect – those now rested in Stormont playing sectarian games at our expense (or should that be while on expenses).

    Alas, aesthetics matter in our wee Norn-iron and until there’s a new and genuinely balanced “scenery” then tribalism and division will remain rife or at least capable of being misused for politicial shenanigans.

  • zoot01

    Unfortunately here, we don’t vote on capability to do the job, just whether the candidate attends church or chapel!

    There will never be a border referendum! Apparently the majority of people in the Province do not want to integrate into the South. However if there was and they did vote NO, Sinn Fein’s reason to exist i.e. a united Ireland, would disappear as the majority would have spoken and we all know how the parties respect the wishes of the people! They would just have to find another battle cry.
    If the vote was YES, then all parties would lose out because there would be no requirement for Stormont and hence no jobs – a bit like turkeys voting for Christmas. It’s a great thing to shout about as all parties know that there will never actually be a referendum – it’s too risky for them!
    Let them please accept this and do what they forever claim they have a mandate to do – make Northern Ireland successful!

  • News_Meister

    @zoot01,
    Firstly, I think there will be a border poll but probably not much before the next Census in 2021.
    Secondly, I’m one of those people wrongly assumed to be in favour of the Union when in the Census I stated what I felt I was i.e. Northern Irish, as opposed to what I want to happen (I will vote for a UI whenever I’m confident RoI economy has recovered).
    Thirdly, if and/or whenever a UI occurs there will likely be a regional/devolved assembly system. That said, the present Unionist parties would probably struggle to stay relevant in a UI set-up but not SF who are already a growing 32 county party.

  • Fortlands

    I found Cunningham sincere and impressive. There certainly hasn’t been any radical economic move from Stormont that’s changed the economic health of this place. But he ignored/dismissed that other matters than business/economic matters might have importance too. People want politicians who’ll do the business in terms of jobs and economic development AND work effectively for their cultural/constitutional concerns. It’s not either/or. That was Cunningham’s weakness: he dismissed anything beyond the business/economic as childish.

  • GavBelfast

    All I have to say about Mr Cunningham’s diatribe is: moan, moan, moan!

    Free all-island (as long as the journey starts here!) public transport for pensioners, and no water charges or meters (well, until the EU demands it, and then it won’t be the 108’s fault).

    What’s not to like and be unendingly appreciative of the 108 for, FFS???

  • iluvni

    Come on, we might get a flags commission…..just think of those cushy chairs in a nice big office, a panel of appointees, expenses and meetings, lots of meetings, and reports. More public sector jobs created. Success all round.
    What not to like?
    Mr Cunningham is clearly being unhelpful to the peace process.

  • DC

    Mr Cunningham, focus on those export markets, preferably outside the EU and UK, let us get down to the serious business of the flag, the flag is bread and butter politics.

    Besides, open secret alert: everyone knows the banks have no money left.

    So if the banks have no money what hope the economy?

    Plus if Westminster can’t sow magic economic growth beans what hope Stormont?

  • Rory Carr

    Mr Cunningham is quite forward in finding fault with the assembly’s failure to, as he sees it, let go of the past – a failure with which one can easily empathise (I have a similar complaint about Mrs Rory) but it might be more helpful if he would like to tell us what exactly it is that he thinks the government should be doing that they are not doing to assist the promotion of successful business.

    If he doesn’t feel like going too public about it then Nevin has already provided him with details of a forum with direct links to government where his experience and counsel will be very much appreciated.

  • Barnshee

    “Treating government as a business would mean ceasing to shield the old and the infirm from the harshness of a materialist world; closing facilities like libraries because they don’t make a profit; giving tax cuts to the rich so that they can spend more; relax building controls so that builders can have an easier time; incentivise people to stop being poor; shrugging shoulders at the plight of poor children victimised by your policies

    It also might put an end to the enormous burden of a public sector maintained at the (English) taxpayers expense to help “buy” the peace process , further it might cause people to reconsider procreation ( excess or otherwise),until income and accommodation had been secured thus reducing the number of “poor children”.

    It also might focus attention on exactly where money is actually spent.. £70,000 + for “employees” whose main qualification was shooting unarmed civilians or frantic brandishing of a flag seems a tad expensive. To compound it,the public sector pays salaries far beyond the equivalent available in the private sector. In short its a mess but a mess that suits the politicos and their associated bandwagons for without it they and a large number of their supporters would be er on the dole.

    ( Bear in mind that the “government” has no money –it obtains its income from a form of legalised theft called taxation.)

    There is enormous vested interest in the status quo. Otherwise wholly unemployable individuals are MLA`s Councillors Mayors, community workers
    ” and dogs have leas that bitem”
    and greater fleas have lesser fleas
    and so on ad finitem”

  • seamusot

    NI and ROI are both stupid statelets – not much different from North and South Korea. The level of dysfunctional hatred inbred into the artificial division of Korea causes much of brutal abuse of ordinary civilians. When you see North Korea starve its population whilst producing fabulous marching demonstrations of fiery goose stepping marchers by a nutcase febrile regime, one is reminded of Drumcree and the rights to march the Betty Windsor Highways. Nutcases. Let us march into victory……………. Believe in better days and better times. Better futures for all the children currently being intoxicated with broken formulae. Recognise that the major Christian religions in Ireland are all becoming irrelevant and the pretence that adherence to whichever of its factions was the real separator is the last vestige of imbeciles. Scotland in September 2014 will prove that colonial inspired sectarianism has no future.

  • aquifer

    So long as the sectarian smokescreen is thick enough to obscure what the assembly has actually achieved, or not, we have a problem.

    Could interest groups club together and track what these overblown local Councillors have managed to legislate for?

    Otherwise you have to suspect that this incompetence extends to advocacy groups grown fat on sentiment and tokenism.

    The Unions are worse than useless. Because their membership is also split along sectarian lines, they cannot form a Labour Party to throw tribal chancers out. Given the choice between giving money to their public sector membership and stimulating the private economy staffed by the working poor, where do they stand?

    The CBI, supported from London, probably think they are thus Unionists and should pedal softly on the island economy, pulling the punches deserved by the DUP.

  • “The CBI, supported from London, probably think they are thus Unionists and should pedal softly on the island economy, pulling the punches deserved by the DUP.”

    aquifer, EU and other money is skewing the CBI NI operation in favour of the nationalist all-Ireland dimension.

  • Comrade Stalin

    John Cunningham’s comments reflect my own opinions.

    We get the government that we vote for. Here, we vote not for administrators and legislators, but for people who have no qualifications or ideas beyond sharing our tribal identity. Unless that stops, we will continue to get bad government.

    Comments from others blaming the system (or impossibly, talking about flags) are wide of the mark. At the end of the day the system would work fine if the politicians operating within it were able to negotiate and compromise which is what happens in every other country governed by a coalition. It is the poor calibre of our politicians which is at fault, and that is a problem which every single one of us has the means to solve.

  • tacapall

    “We get the government that we vote for. Here, we vote not for administrators and legislators, but for people who have no qualifications or ideas beyond sharing our tribal identity. Unless that stops, we will continue to get bad government”

    In other so called democracies like Britain and America politicians are manufactured from an early age, they are manipulated and educated to obey the puppet master, they are there for one thing and one thing alone, to protect the status quo and expand the wealth and influence of others. In this statelet we vote for any Joe blogg from ballygobackwards, regardless of their past and regardless if they lack the moral values needed, we are blinkered and indifferent to the probability that they might not even have the intelligence to be a politician. As long as they support the right football team attend the right church or are partial to the same colours that our political parties propagate. You really could elect a monkey in this country as long as it is running on a Unionist or Nationalist ticket

    The reality is regardless who we vote for, when it comes to finance, the economy, the constitutional status and what colour the company logo is flying over our city halls, we are all governed by a hidden hand, we will have no say in the matter, we can complain or protest but he who controls the money supply of a nation controls the nation.

  • BluesJazz

    The subvention.

    Every graduate (who stays in NI) wants to be a public sector worker. Doctor, Teacher, Legal aid lawyer, civil service.
    Job security, high(er) wages, pension. (same wages as Surrey)
    All paid for by the Treasury.
    Why would you want to work outside the magic bubble?

  • tacapall

    “Why would you want to work outside the magic bubble”

    Because I would rather be a citizen than a subject or a slave Bluesjazz. I believe the only true way to free Ireland from the clutches of the crown in both states 26 and 6, is to bankrupt the country, tell our debtors and financial overlords to fk off. If we have to go back to stone age times and barter for goods so be it, at least we will be free from the parasites that live off our backs and turned us into serfs.

  • Greenflag

    Mr Cunningham is of course correct .The first law in business is- if you can’t sell it -don’t make it . I would imagine Jon Cunningham’s view would be widely shared not just among businessmen in Northern Ireland but across the rest of this island and in the UK . The first law in NI politics is if you start to go soft on the constitutional question then say goodbye to your political career assuming you ever get started (the AP are probably the only small exception to this rule)

    But while politics and business overlap -they are two different worlds in respect of achieving stated objectives . In business it’s pretty straightforward -You survive (assuming no corporate welfare ) on your own merits and the hard work of your employees -the availability of capital financing and the overall state of the local and world economies.

    It must be frustrating (I think thats the best word in the circumstances ) for people like Mr Cunningham to have to listen to the dithering neither here nor there doublespeak and circumlocutory goings on of the local NI politicians .As he rightly states they would not survive in business with that carryon .

    But in their own constrained world they too have to listen to the market and that market is the political will or lack of it of the NI population . If they don’t listen to their markets or start selling what their market doesn’t want it pretty soon becomes ‘new ‘career time for NI politicians and indeed politicians everywhere .

    So the trap is set . The NI economy can’t break out of it’s current constraints because of it’s public sector dependency and the politicians are trapped because thats what the people vote for . Yes there are those who howl against the status quo and they have reason to – But there is truly no alternative well not one anyway that would’nt probably involve more bloodshed that it would be worth !

  • Greenflag

    @ tacapall.

    ”Because I would rather be a citizen than a subject or a slave ‘

    How about ‘indentured mortgage servant ” corporate workaholic -or tournament service retail minimum wage for they make up the vast majoity of citizens/subjects of both Britain and Ireland in todays globalised world economy. ‘

    ‘I believe the only true way to free Ireland from the clutches of the crown in both states 26 and 6, is to bankrupt the country, tell our debtors and financial overlords to fk off.’

    A noble sentiment and one which I would wish could happen . But no country stands alone anymore not even the USA . Whats needed is for the major world economic powers to reform banking in their own countries and also the international system based on Bretton Woods . Ireland acting alone is not going to make any difference .

    ‘If we have to go back to stone age times and barter for goods so be it, at least we will be free from the parasites that live off our backs and turned us into serfs.’

    I would’nt think so . For a start in stone age times you might already have expired given that life expectancy was probably about 19 . Parasites back then were even more deadly than they are today . Serfdom was also prevalent and the life of man was nasty brutish and short . There were periods in particular after the last Ice Age when people began to move north from their refuges in the Pyrenees and Northern Italy when life was easier and food plentiful . But once populations expanded and demands for resources increased then it was survival of the fittest /cleverest/most treacherous /etc etc . And the dental care was’nt all that good either .

    Going back is not an alternative .We have to adapt and move forward .There be no Utopias .

    as to

    ‘freeing Ireland from the clutches of the crown ‘

    Again a noble if not exactly thought out sentiment . The crown itself is now ranking much further down in the wealth holding stakes in Britain . As I read the list of Britain’s wealthies I find that the top ten have names that sound like Chelsea’s soccer team . Three Russians and several Indians make up the top 5 and the poor old Duke of Westminster (the Crown ) is ranked 8th .

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22233389

    The good news is that the British wealthy are becoming wealthier whereas the average Briton becomes poorer and the poorest Britons get it in the neck -But shure thats modern day financial capitalism which is a variant of what was once called democratic (relatively speaking ) capitalism .

    BTW it’s no different for us citizens of the Republic than it is for those British ‘subjects ‘.

    I’d use ‘indentured citizens and ‘Indentured subjects’ with the most meaningful word in both descriptions being the ‘indentured’ part.

  • tacapall

    Greenflag I am a slave to no-one Im not a debt slave nor a serf what I have is enough for me and if anyone thinks I owe them anything they can sing for it, you just cant get blood from a stone.

    I really couldn’t give a toss about any other country, let nature take its course its called evolution.

    “But no country stands alone anymore not even the USA”

    Iceland was able to do it so why cant Ireland and I really dont think any country without pressure from others would stand behind corporate America and its military controlled government. Remind us do Americans print the Dollar ?

    “Going back is not an alternative .We have to adapt and move forward .There be no Utopias”

    Well its 2013 and we still have Kings and Queens, princes and princesses, they have their utopia. The rest of your comments regarding that paragraph is not worth commenting on.

    Regarding the Crown – Who is the crown ? Are you under the illusion it belongs to the royal family or is for the benefit of the British people ? By the way those who control the crown and control inner city London are not even on the wealthiest list, they are a law unto themselves, the wealthiest people on your list wouldn’t even get an invite into that elite rich list.

    Finally Greenflag if you wish to call yourself an indentured citizen or indentured subject feel free but your still just a debt slave.

  • Greenflag

    tacapall ,

    ‘I really couldn’t give a toss about any other country’

    ‘ Whether you or I or any group of little Englanders or Irelanders or Northern Irelanders like it or not we live in an interdependent world . The Irish economy could not survive without it’s export markets -neither could the UK or Germany and maintain their current populations at the standard of living they are accustomed to – even if that standard of living is under pressure given increased competition from developing countries.

    ‘Iceland was able to do it ‘

    Iceland is lining up to join the Eurozone as soon as it can .Iceland was not a member of the Eurozone when it suffered the same kind of problem which Ireland andd other countries faced back in 2007/8 namely that the banks had become overleveraged and in the midst of the property bubble had in fact become gambling institutions . Some still are which is why I state there has been insufficient reform in that sector .

    ‘Remind us do Americans print the Dollar ?

    Of course -Its called quantative easing and it’s whats keeping the current American economy in whats called a slight economic recovery mode -unlike the UK or the larger EU economies which are seen to being held back by ‘austerity ‘.

    The USA is limited in the number of dollars it can print in that overseas investors in US Treasury Bills fear the dollars effective devaluation and a resultant loss in their investments .Meanwhile American citizens and those who have been prudent and saved their money are having their savings gouged from them by interest rates which are lower than the inflation rate by about 1.8% a year .

    It would be a brave Federal Reserve Chairman who would raise current interest rates by even 1% . Such an increase would add $1 trillion dollars to America’s National debt and the cost of servicing this extra debt would drive the USA economy back into recession and ipso facto the rest of the world including Ireland /UK etc.

    To conclude I did’nt state that YOU were a debt slave nor that blood could be got from a stone . I used the word ‘indentured servant’ as an analogy for the current economic prospects of probably a majority of people in these islands and elsewhere in the West including the USA . ‘Indentured ‘ servitude was the status for probably some 80% of the early British and Irish emigrants to the New World prior to the growth of the African slave trade . What it meant was that in return for their passage (transport cost) to the New World they the passengers would work for ‘free ‘ i.e no wages for seven years for their master and would then be released to lead ‘free lives ‘. In some cases this was accompanied by grants of a small plot of land up to 40 acres .

    Hard to imagine in these days but back then that was for many people in these islands a better economic prospect than remaining in Britain or Ireland .

    The relevance of ‘indentured ‘ for todays western economies is that taxpayers everywhere in the USA /UK /Ireland are being ‘robbed ‘ of their savings in order to pay for the policy errors of the governments and politicians of a decade or 20 years ago and the gambling debts of Wall St , City of London and the worlds biggest banks.

    And it’ll be another ‘indentured ‘ 7 years or more before the bastards will be paid off . In the meantime blood will continue to be got from the stones in the form of reduced education and health budgets and welfare budgets etc etc.

    Remember what it says in the plutocratic capitalist bible !

    ‘To them that hath shall be given and to them that hath not even that which they haven’t got yet -will be taken from from them -For such is the way of Wall St and the City -Amen ‘

  • jagmaster

    The whole Ponzi based Capitalist system is going to come crashing down soon enough so there’s not much point bemoaning the education and political system now.

  • Greenflag

    jagmaster ,

    The problem is not that it’s going to crash -we may yet have another recession if the USA can’t get it’s act together . the problem is that what used to be called ‘democratic capitalism ‘ in which labour as well as capital benefitted from increased productivity has now been replaced by financial sector led corporate capitalism in the West which is busy replacing , outsourcing and emisserating labour and authoritarian one party led capitalism in China .

    In the global currency war between them what used to be called ‘democracy ‘ has been hung out to dry 🙁

  • DC

    Well they – the powers that be – whoever they are now – are trying to stop the economy from ‘crashing’ by dabbling in a process of managed deflation done via public spending cuts and debt repayment.

  • Greenflag

    @DC ,

    ‘by dabbling in a process of managed deflation done via public spending cuts and debt repayment.’

    The key and most descriptive word in your comment above is ‘dabbling ‘. For thats all it is . The ‘powers that be’ haven’t a clue or more precisely don’t have any certain policy proposals which would/could transform international banking from a gambling casino for elite tax evaders and money launderers into a world financial system which would be first and foremost a tool for developing ‘real ‘ economies .

    Not just dabbling but dabbling uncertainly in the midst of an underground global currency war which our leaders would rather not mention in the hope that it will somehow go away .