Origins of the Northern Irish conflict: Gerrymandering and mistrust…

Came across this copy of Robert Kee’s documentary on Ireland in the early eighties. This penultimate edition dealt with the early troubles.

What’s noticeable is:

– despite being over thirty years old it hasn’t really aged;

– the rich primary material retains a vitality that’s missing in recent summative works…

If you are short of time, jump into the video here, where the bit on gerrymandering out west begins

Stick with it for about ten minutes and it also reveals the startlingly divergent attitudes of Brookborough and O’Neill.

And just how cordial the relationship of the latter was with Sean Lemass.

  • David Crookes

    Yes: it hasn’t aged at all.

  • “despite being over thirty years old it hasn’t really aged”

    It’s still mainly a nationalist perspective on our history set in a nationalist-unionist ‘island of Ireland’ context. Kee seems to have been largely unaware of the socialist input from the likes of Desmond Greaves ie the use of rights issues to sweep away the ‘conservative’ institutions in the two jurisdictions on the island.

    “Origins of the Northern Irish conflict: Gerrymandering and mistrust”

    They were clearly evident in the 1880s, long before partition; I don’t view it as a matter of ‘trust’, more as a tussle between opposing constitutional aspirations. Correct me if I’m wrong but I understood gerrymandering was introduced to counter first the affiliation of nationalist controlled councils to the Dáil and later the growing influence of socialist politics.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Heh, I’d forgotten all about Gerry’s funky woolly jumpers.

  • grandimarkey

    Nevin:
    Correct me if I’m wrong but I understood gerrymandering was introduced to counter first the affiliation of nationalist controlled councils to the Dáil and later the growing influence of socialist politics.

    Sure, that makes it alright then…

  • Dec

    ‘Correct me if I’m wrong but I understood gerrymandering was introduced to counter first the affiliation of nationalist controlled councils to the Dáil and later the growing influence of socialist politics.’

    All taigs being socialists of course. This sort of claptrap borders on trolling.

  • FuturePhysicist

    In many elections, the Labour Party up north suffered more from gerrymandering than the Nationalist party did.

  • Dec

    Unionist Gerrymandering was occuring in places like Tyrone and Armagh as far back as 1911 some 13 years before the formation of the NI Labour Party.

  • Old Mortality

    Gerrymandering. Where would we have been without it?
    All those councils that would have been under nationalist control would have built thousands of houses in which they would have installed nationalist voters who would all have been employed by the councils. Yes, it would have been wonderful.

  • Paulk

    OM, so what you are saying is… what exactly?

    That gerrymandering didn’t really do that much harm?

    That it wasn’t a way of keeping all of the power concentrated in an elite group so that the other side couldn’t have even a little tiny bit of power?

    That if there isn’t enough people to get someone elected or to change something then they really don’t need a vote because it can’t happen anyway?

    Is this what passes for unionist democracy these days? (and those days too?) I suppose it does looking at recent examples it all begins to make sense!!

  • Mick Fealty

    Paul,

    sarcasm often does not come across that well online…

  • Nevin[1.24] In an article i read [linked here by Alex Kane], O’neill was quoted asking his colleagues at cabinet in 1968/69 ‘can any of us say truthfully that there aren’t real grieviences on the minority community that need addressed? Hard to imagine a DUP/uup/TUV figure now who would ask such a question. Out of sheer bloodyminded and mean-spirited belligerence, they wouldn’tg be able to bring themselves to such an honest appraisal. They are going to find at the centenary of NI they will be asked about the first fifty years endlessly.’

  • Morpheus

    “”In Armagh there are 68,000 Protestants, 56,000 Catholics. The County Council has twenty-two Protestants and eight Catholics.
    In Tyrone, Catholics are a majority of the population, 82,000 against 68,000; but the electoral districts have been so arranged that Unionists return sixteen as against thirteen Nationalists (one a Protestant). This Council gives to the Unionists two to one majority on its Committees, and out of fifty-two officials employs only five Catholics.
    In Antrim, which has the largest Protestant majority (196,000 to 40,000), twenty-six Unionists and three Catholics are returned. Sixty officers out of sixty-five are good Unionists and Protestants.”
    Stephen Gwynn (Irish journalist, biographer, author, poet and Protestant nationalist politician and House of Commons MP in his book called ‘The Case for Home Rule’

    The stuff that went on back in the day eh?

  • Mick Fealty

    I’m hoping more people will comment as they have a better opportunity to watch the actual video. The stats in 1969 come up pretty quickly if you follow the embedded link.

    Regulars, take note, you can get your own avatar by registering under the same email address as your Slugger account. Then you will automagically ‘individuate’!

    My own thoughts are that it is a useful reminder of just how inveterately unfair the system was to a stupendously high proportion of the citizenry of Northern Ireland.

    I think is important to understanding the genuine dilemmas facing the Catholic population as protest segued extremely quickly into a full blown confrontation with the state.

  • socaire

    I think that it is important for this generation of ‘nationalists’ to understand how it ‘blew up’ too. How quickly we forget.

  • Mick Fealty

    Not JUST nationalists. Unionists need to understand the degree to which even the most law abiding nationalists felt comprised by their uneven relationship with a state was at best blind to their predicament.

  • JR

    I watched the video in it’s entirety, It’s hard to know what to say really. My mum was involved in civil rights so I grew up hearing about much of what was in that program and more. My mum was battened, gassed, harassed and beaten for asking for “one man one vote, better jobs and houses”.

    My uncle was interned for objecting to a neighboring UDR mans planning application despite having no connections to Sinn Fein or the IRA before or since. The state was rotten and the British Government allowed it to happen.

  • Mick Fealty

    That ignorance of what and who the state was facing comes over too in Ciaran McAirt’s video (http://goo.gl/WCJHB) on the people killed in the bombing of McGurk’s bar in New Lodge.

    The lack of empathy and understanding is the other startling and illuminating aspect of these events. But it is also useful to hear the son of an RUC senior officer recount how his father heard detailed instruction shouted by a senior member of the civil rights movement shout instructions to rioters to aim for the legs of cops who were trying to protect their heads with sheilds that were too short to provide all body protection.

    In a sense we all lumbered into a war that no one was prepared for: the state; the protesters; or physical force republicans.

  • DC

    These are just the hellish, brutish bumps and fatal thumps that tend to come with states bedding down, look at the hell Germany went through and then dished out in terms of its nation state building and the mayhem for it and europe when shifting from monarchy to democracy, in the end.

    Thankfully we are lucky to have come out of that phase and even better for me not having been a part of it.

    sure the GFA has sanitised Northern Ireland for nationalists perhaps sanitised by nationalists as a consequence of the above; however this too is bringing its own set of unique challenges, bumps and thumps as NI’s relatively young if not infant democracy moves on to a new phase.

  • socaire

    Don’t forget! There’s no such place as Northern Ireland. A temporary PUL fantasy.

  • DC

    Pity your pretty sunny flag wouldn’t rub off on.

  • DC

    Pity your pretty sunny flag wouldn’t rub off on *you.

  • DC

    oh it’s an ira flag is it – why isn’t it a dark cloud?

  • Obelisk

    Gerrymandering and mistrust the origins of this conflict? This conflict stretches back centuries, it just mutates from generation to generation with the reasons changing as our communal narratives progress. Gael vs Planters, Catholic vs Protestant, Jacobite vs Williamite, Everyone outside the Ascendancy vs the Ascendancy, Nationalists vs Unionists. Maybe in eighty years it will be those in favour of joining the United States of Europe against those who want to retain the Union with England, the split will just happen to almost exactly mirror sectarian lines.

    “These are just the hellish, brutish bumps and fatal thumps that tend to come with states bedding down, look at the hell Germany went through and then dished out in terms of its nation state building and the mayhem for it and europe when shifting from monarchy to democracy, in the end.”

    Northern Ireland isn’t Brazil, but it sure as hell isn’t Germany either.

    The hellish, brutish bumps you describe are the outworkings of Northern Ireland’s design flaws.

    If it were a car, it would have been recalled and scrapped and the manufacturer rightfully excoriated in public for having released such a malformed product.

    But it’s a statelet so it has to be kept going no matter what and after nearly one hundred years the only way it’s kept minimally functioning is with a sectarian headcount democracy where nobody is trusted to form the opposition and money is simply bunged here from Brussels and London to keep us all quiet, so much as possible.

    And in the meanwhile, we all hope that one day, the next generation will overcome our failures and reach that promised land of togetherness. Kicking the can down the road generation after generation.

    What if what we have now is the best we’re going to get? Two ethnic groups with an entrenched interest in perpetuating division at every level of society from primary school to Stormont, staggering from crisis to crisis punctuated by bouts of anemic non-action in tackling the problems we face?

  • Framer

    Just in case anyone misinterprets or misunderstands what the ‘one man one vote’ slogan of the civil rights movement was about, I’ll explain.
    This is necessary because I have met Protestants who believed Catholics, per se, were denied the vote pre-1969.
    The local government franchise at that time was for ratepayers only, as had been the case in England until 1949. The group denied that franchise was mostly the children of ratepayers living with their parents, be they Protestant or Catholic.
    The restriction was not discriminatory. The refusal to reform it was probably as much conservative as anything else.

  • DC

    Northern Ireland isn’t Brazil, but it sure as hell isn’t Germany either.

    Of course it isn’t but *Northern Ireland* and indeed Ireland as like Germany developed its nation state relatively late in comparison to other western nations, all 3 states are no longer crude ethnic states any more it would be fair to say i reckon.

    I do believe it will take generations and generations to heal this place and the passing of time will be more helpful than immediate radical policy such as wholesale change to schools, although there should be more integrated schools clearly in urban divided areas, than say in rural deep green or orange zones.

    Things take time to mature and settle, like a fine wine, and i do enjoy a fine wine, it would be great to have had england’s head start, it hasn’t really been fooled around with since 1066.

    Also in Germany, there is a debate ongoing about whether dual citizenship leads to better integration, has dual citizenship in Northern Ireland led to better integration? Maybe time will tell.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/dual-citizenship-question-becomes-german-campaign-issue-a-884525.html

    Fellow FDP politician Rainer Brüderle agrees, saying in the business daily Handelsblatt on Tuesday that it was time for “ideological disarmament on the question of double citizenship.”

    That suggestion, however, seems not to have gone over well with Merkel’s allies. While her spokesman, Steffen Seibert, said merely that the government sees no current need to address the issue, the Christian Social Union (CSU), the Bavarian sister party to Merkel’s CDU, hauled out the verbal artillary.

    “Those who live in a country and want to stay there must clearly commit to that country and take on its citizenship,” said a spokesman for the Interior Ministry, led by CSU member Hans-Peter Friedrich.

    His party colleague, CSU General Secretary Alexander Dobrindt, went even further. “We say a clear no to double citizenship. German citizenship is not a junk item to be hawked cheaply,” he said.

  • BluesJazz

    Gerry Mandarin
    Used to have several chinese restaurants in South Down.
    Great chow mein.
    Decent bloke, seems to have gone downhill. All those allegations of seagulls were never proved.

  • DC

    just to back up my point about radical policy versus passing of time as to which one is a better healer, take the Alliance Party being used to take down the union flag to designated days in Belfast.

    I believe such a policy would not cause hassles say in 15 years time whenever, if we are to believe gerry lynch, there will in reality be an authentic nationalist majority. at this point alliance would not be needed and people in town, in belfast, would be braced and conditioned for this to happen given the authentic demographics and political realities.

    instead all alliance has done is buck the political market and bring about a situation ahead of its time in doing so creating shock and annoyance.

    Re the clip – i liked this particular section:

  • I think I viewed this episode back in the summer of 1998 at the Linen Hall Library. I was familiar with the discrimination from the writings of Tim Pat Coogan and J. Bowyer Bell and others, but Robert Kee does a very good job of presenting it in graphic form. The footage of the Burntollet Bridge ambush is also quite memorable.

    I remember being told by unionists that NICRA was just an IRA front. It might have been–but it was a front for what became the OIRA not the Provos, and so represented a positive step away from armed struggle and toward peaceful evolution.

  • Morpheus

    “instead all alliance has done is buck the political market and bring about a situation ahead of its time in doing so creating shock and annoyance.”

    Again with the Alliance bashing? You need to take a step back from that whole designated days situation and have an honest objective look at the whole thing. I know this has been debated to death so I will give you a link so you can see the facts for yourself:
    http://allianceparty.org/article/2013/006960/frequently-asked-questions-about-the-recent-vote-on-the-union-flag-at-belfast-city-council

    Running the Alliance party out of Belfast was disgusting and highly undemocratic. Why did the playground bullies go after the smallest kid in the playground? Because they were an easy target.

    The DUP/UUP didn’t even have the nads to put their logos on the now notorious leaflets and only admitted to them when they were caught red-handed. Then what happened? Death threats, attempted murder, firebombs, riots, businesses closing, protests, kids with criminal records….the list goes on. All the while the DUP/UUP used their tried and tested tactic of sitting back, watching the riots from their armchairs and saying ‘nowt to do with us guvnor.’ Spineless cowards.

    The Alliance showed strength and integrity – they have my vote and hopefully the more intelligent voters will do the same

  • Old Mortality

    PaulK

    ‘That gerrymandering didn’t really do that much harm?’

    Not quite. It’s more that the absence of gerrrymandering wouldn’t have done that much good. There just wouldn’t have been the money to build the houses and invent the jobs. Ratepayers, even nationalist ones, wouldn’t have stood for it. Voting cards are no more edible than flags.

  • Morpheus

    “There just wouldn’t have been the money to build the houses and invent the jobs. “

    Did you not watch the clip?

  • Canny See It Sur

    “But it is also useful to hear the son of an RUC senior officer recount how his father heard detailed instruction shouted by a senior member of the civil rights movement shout instructions to rioters to aim for the legs of cops who were trying to protect their heads with sheilds that were too short to provide all body protection.”

    This was Bernadette Devlin MP if I’m not mistaken.

  • Framer

    About half the students at Burntollet became two-nationists or unionists and, if not, vociferously anti-Provo. Most regretted their actions that week not realising the dormant historical and ethnic forces they were awakening.

  • Harry Flashman

    Surprising that Kee repeats the mistake that Londonderry Corporation did not have a Nationalist majority due to gerrymandering.

    This may come as a huge surprise to many but that simply isn’t the case. The City of Derry certainly had a Nationalist majority but Londonderry Corporation comprised a large rural, majority-protestant hinterland.

    If, as has been claimed since time immemorial, Londonderry Corporation was gerrymandered then when the electoral boundaries were reformed and the business vote abolished the Nationalists should have won their thumping great majority, right?

    Er wrong, in the first post-reform local election in 1973, on the basis of first preferences (after all one-man-one-vote was the catchcry was it not?), the Combined Loyalists won 36.8% of the vote, with Alliance (to all intents and purposes O’Neillite unionists) winning 14.5%, this was let us remember four years into a conflict that saw many protestants leaving Derry.

    Nationalists and Republicans the soi-disant, gerrymandered majority actually won only 47% of the vote in Derry.

    Yes, Nationalist voters were in fact a minority in Londonderry Corporation throughout the history of the Northern Ireland state.

    Oh, and Catholics got a bigger proportion of public housing than protestants too.

    Some myths die hard.

  • märsta

    Hmmm, interesting Harry – links please…

  • DC

    Running the Alliance party out of Belfast was disgusting and highly undemocratic. Why did the playground bullies go after the smallest kid in the playground?

    I don’t think Alliance is without its bullies either, you know.

    Of course the leaflet made it impossible to pull the decision off without all hell breaking loose but still the decision was made any way.

    I know it’s a democracy and the flag flies like that in UK and stuff, but look at the dynamics of the decision making process not just the outcome. You blame the DUP and UUP but the attempted complete removal of the flag came at the hands of irish nationalists, then there was the exclusive compromise by Alliance with irish nationalists for designated days which gave them 95% of what they wanted anyway.

    It’s clear Alliance hadn’t paved the way or conditioned parts of its own east belfast electorate for change like this which is why i am reasoning maybe it’s better in terms of maintaining peace to just wait for that ‘natural conditioning’ an authentic nationalist majority to come along because by that time and point people would really have got used to the greening of the city as it would be there visible on street, in the bars, social events etc. day in, day out.

    And on another point about natural conditioning via demographics, the main reason why i think nationalists signed up to power-sharing in the late 90s and into 2007 is that they know it will be 50:50 soon in terms of the crude communal power bases, to me that weighed more in their favour to call off the war and deal. than say irish dimensions – NSMC stuff, although the policy to release of prisoners helped to speed things up and blind eye turning to decommissioning issues.

    So perhaps the GFA and St Andrews is another victory for the passing of time than radical policy?

  • DC

    Go back over what worked to keep the peace process together, think back.

    1) Fudge
    2) Delay

    So i think next time something which you know is going to be so divisive with the potential of street trouble, what to do: fudge or delay.

    Oh i see the union flag is on the table for discussion again…

    oh yes, that’s a perennial one that one, but one for next term!

  • “The lack of empathy and understanding is the other startling and illuminating aspect of these events.”

    When we open the lens a little, it’s fairly clear that Dublin wasn’t blinded by the socialist republican initiated rights smokescreen:

    Dr. O’Connell: Does the Minister agree that this baton-swinging democracy serves as a showpiece as suggested by the Taoiseach, when we have disturbances like this provoked by the police?

    Mr. B. Lenihan: The Deputy and certain other members of his Party appear to want to bring parliamentary democracy in Ireland into a state of anarchy in which anything might happen. .. [Inquiry into Dublin Street Incidents.
    Wednesday, 11 May 1966]

    Sean Garland’s explanation sheds some light on why the Dublin government of the day did a runner.

  • Morpheus

    Thanks for your calm response DC – on BelTel for example this is usually met with a barrage of ill-thoughtout rhetoric.

    The whole debacle about the flags was started back in 2002 and the position of the Alliance Party has been clear since the Equality Commission gave their advice. Surely it was the responsibility of the political leaders to see what was coming and prepare those who voted from them?

    The leaflet was 100% not the way to go and I am surprised that it has been allowed to slide the way it has.

    Can you not see the nationalist argument at all DC? The Good Friday Agreement clearly states that it was founded on the principles of full respect for, and equality of, civil, political, social and cultural rights, of freedom from discrimination for all citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos and aspirations of both communities

    Equality of civil and political rights was never an option really so they went from neutrality – and rightly so. When two kids are fighting over a toy you take it away to stop the arguments until they can learn to share together. I would even go one further and say that the nationalists have been quite patient in their quest for equality, 15 years after the signing of the GFA.

    We live on a tiny plot of land and we need to be able to share it so in my opinion all public areas should be neutral, including the playpark in Newry, until such times that we can learn to play together.

  • DC

    I do see nationalists argument, but i don’t see how the nationalist tradition has been furthered in anyway as a result of the union flag coming down.

    I imagine from the unionist point of view equality, as played out via the union flag, seems to be about unionists having ‘less’ (of the flag) so that nationalists can have ‘more’ in some way. Maybe some sort of new agreed council flag going up 365 days might’ve plugged that gap or nationalists committing to designated days in other council areas, a win win?

    What was it Tony Blair said about politics being about ‘style’, if nationalists had come out of the blocks with designated days i do think things might have been better, still bad but less bitter as it might not have smoked out extreme loyalists who saw potential losing of the union flag as a red line crossed.

  • Morpheus

    DC:

    The nationalist tradition as you put it is playing catch-up. They are going from 0% to 50% whereas unionism is going from 100% to 50%. It will look like unionism is giving up more but that is only because nationalists didn’t have anything to give up and everything will balance out in the end.

    When you talk about style the Unionist politicians could have marketed it as:
    “In the next few years we will be going from a position where we had 100% of the cake to a position whereby we are going to share it 50-50 with our fellow man in an equitable and fair way. Yes it will be tough as it will appear that they are gaining everything and we are gaining nothing but keep in mind that’s only because they are going from 0-50 whereas we are going from 100-50. The end result will be a 50-50 and a peaceful future for our children and our children’s children.”

    And the nationalist could have said:
    “In the next few years we are going to make strides forward in certain areas but it is our responsibility to ensure that we do so with dignity and respect. The end result will be 50-50 and a peaceful future for our children and our children’s children”

    But no – we have leaflets, death threats, firebombs, riots, protests, more riots etc. All over what should have been a simple housekeeping exercise.

  • socaire[11.49] Unionists must reflect ruelfully[on the quiet] that the only reason they were able to get away with their corrupt running of NI was because the british wanted the world to think it was nothing to do with them anymore since partition so left them to their devices. In the end it backfired in 1968 on both unionists and London. Post GFA N Ireland is unique among the five political entities in that the other four exist in their own right while NI is only here until further notice. Hanging on until demographics finally put it out of it’s misery, however long that takes.

  • Kevsterino

    I agree it hasn’t aged much and I would attribute that to the truthfulness of the presentation. Truth ages well.

    It is hard to imagine such institutional practices in the United Kingdom in the latter 20th century, let alone people yearning for a return to “The Good Old Days”.

  • GEF

    ” The local government franchise at that time was for ratepayers only, as had been the case in England until 1949…………………..The restriction was not discriminatory. The refusal to reform it was probably as much conservative as anything else”

    I agree Framer, but prior to 1949 it was more class discrimination than religious or anti Catholic before WW2 in England as well. The Labour government give all Irish citizens living in England dual citizenship and therefore the right to One man One vote in local elections after passing the Republic of Ireland Act 1948. The NI government at Stormont should have followed suit but as you say both Conservatives and fur coat Unionists who were very much in charge of the UUP then, seen it as a stunt to attract more working class Irish immigrants to join the Labour Party. Which the did in droves.

    Interesting read here: “Suffrage, political franchise, or simply franchise, distinct from other rights to vote, is the right to vote gained through the democratic process”

    http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffrage&sa=U&ei=_uheUZrWN8HFPd2FgJgG&ved=0CBsQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNG1pyT6kgOVdcr94XGvVWfoslCLMQ

  • DC

    @morpheus

    i am all for sharing but it does look like all sinn fein and alliance are doing is ironically redefining unionist identity or what an acceptable unionist identity should be, frustratingly unionists have been excluded in this and have had the flag decision taken over their heads so to speak. Re redefining unionist identity, ironically for SF as it is supposed to be about irishness and ironically for alliance as it is not supposed to be unionist and apparently is not into flags and identity, all it has done, as i have said before elsewhere on slugger, is deliver a suboptimal national identity output on behalf of a community that it purports not to specifically represent.

    if you believe that analysis at least give people leeway whenever they get really pissed off once this dawns on them.

    So on the one hand you have Sinn Fein shit stirring and on the other a moral busy-body, supposedly above unionism and nationalism yet concerning itself in ethno politics.

    I just can’t see how nationalist-led reduction of the constitutional flag is going to lead to reconciliation any time soon.

    You would have thought by now that there would’ve been more of a debate around getting the irish tradition recognised, than simply reducing union flags.

  • Kevsterino

    DC, you write that you’re “all for sharing” but I gather from your numerous postings regarding the flag at City Hall that you would prefer to wait for a nationalist majority to take hold. At that point, you can understand the reasoning for change.

    You say that movement on the flag would only be acceptable were there a nationalist majority on the council. Then it would be reasonable.

    Is this really your position? Can you see the flaw?

  • DC

    no i dont think it’s as black and white as that, but it can be if you want it to be, kev.

  • PaddyReilly

    Flashman is repeating a mis-perception that we have been through before.

    The 1973 Local Elections led to the return of 14 Nationalist councillors, 9 Loyalists and 4 Alliance.

    http://www.ark.ac.uk/elections/73-81lgderry.htm

    That is a majority in anyone’s books, but I am sure Flashie will now proceed to argue the reverse.

  • Zig70

    The fleg issue is just a symptom of the problem that Unionists wanted a new nation and was hoping those who didn’t would just feck off south and leave them to it. There doesn’t seem to be any intellectual Unionist able to say ‘we screwed it up, sorry’. At least admit past mistakes and try to represent all. Now we have Dodds wringing his croc tears over kids in Ardoyne, like he really gives a.. He is probably arrogant enough to think that anyone in NI believes he has their interests at heart.

  • Harry Flashman

    That is a majority in anyone’s books, but I am sure Flashie will now proceed to argue the reverse.

    Thank you Paddy for providing the link.

    The one-seat nationalist majority (in a local corporation that propaganda, and Robert Kee, led us to believe actually had a two-thirds nationalist majority) came about after the second- and third-preferences count in a proportional representation election.

    Now remind me again, what exactly was the slogan of the Civil Righters in Derry? Ah, yes “ONE man, ONE vote!”, that was it wasn’t it? We were assured that the prods only got to run Derry because all the rich Orangemen had loads of votes and the poor downtrodden papes had none.

    Therefore it is perfectly legitimate to examine the result of a one-man-one-vote election, ie counting first preferences only, and lo and behold the huns get over 50% while the taigs can scratch together only 47%.

    So those damn proddies were actually a majority of voters in Londonderry Corporation all along, whodathunkit, eh?

    And the only way to achieve a Nationalist majority in the corporation was to u-turn on the Civil Righters core demand and have an election in which each voter got more than one vote.

    You couldn’t make it up.

  • GEF

    “Origins of the Northern Irish conflict: Gerrymandering and mistrust”

    Interesting how in the early 19 century to prevent citizens from voting who was not Anglician (Church of Ireland in Ireland) . This is one of the reasons Presbyterians fought on the side of Irish Catholics in the 1798 rebellion. It is also evidence that Catholics were not the only ones who were discriminated against because of their religious belief in GB and Ireland. See here:

    Forms of exclusion from suffrage

    “Nonconformists (Methodists and Presbyterians) were only allowed to run for elections to the British House of Commons in 1828, Catholics in 1829 (following the Catholic Relief Act 1829), and Jews in 1858 (with the Emancipation of the Jews in England). Benjamin Disraeli could only begin his political career in 1837 because he had been converted to Anglicanism at the age of 12.”
    http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffrage&sa=U&ei=_uheUZrWN8HFPd2FgJgG&ved=0CBsQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNG1pyT6kgOVdcr94XGvVWfoslCLMQ

  • PaddyReilly

    One man One vote was a campaign against multiple votes for property owners. What you are complaining about here is transferable voting, which is a completely different thing. If you have an issue with proportional voting, then you must take it up with the British Government, who first introduced it into Ireland in the early part of the 20th Century in an attempt to diminish the successes of Sinn Féin.

    It was well known that Catholics greatly outnumbered Protestants in the Londonderry Region. However, after the founding of the Alliance Party in 1970, a large number of Catholics favoured this party with their first preference, either hoping to usher in a new non-sectarian era, or not daring to rock the boat too much. Nevertheless, they reverted to type with their second preference. And indeed with the passage of time, Alliance died out in Derry, with its former voters moving to the SDLP.

    But if the election was held under transferable voting rules, then you cannot assert that this was the only way Nationalists could achieve a majority: you do not take into consideration that people vote in a different way when the system is different.

  • GEF

    “One man One vote was a campaign against multiple votes for property owners.”

    PaddyReilly, Who says I was complaining? It was multiple votes for property and business owners who paid plural and business rates in all 26 local councils throughout NI not just in Londonderry, although it was an extreme case overall. Numerous single property owners also had only one vote. It was a campaign for every citizen (Protestants and Catholics) over the age of 18 to be allowed to vote. Previously only the single rate payer in a house could vote in Council elections. Throughout the whole of Northern Ireland there were more (Protestants than Catholics according to population) who were likewise prevented from voting (in Local Council Elections).

    “But if the election was held under transferable voting rules, then you cannot assert that this was the only way Nationalists could achieve a majority:”

    Who asserted anything of the sort? Transferable voting rules already apply at present in MLA, MEP & Local councils elections. The only National majority happened in the last MEP election (2 Nationalist and 1 Unionist.) The recent proposal for the next general election to become PR has been shelved for the present in the House of Commons. This MP’s election is still first past the post.

  • PaddyReilly

    Sorry GEF I was replying to Flashman (see Older Comments) but your contribution snuck in while I was typing

  • Comrade Stalin

    The only National majority happened in the last MEP election (2 Nationalist and 1 Unionist.)

    Did I miss something ? We’ve got two unionist MEPs and one nationalist, to my knowledge that’s always been the case.

  • GEF

    “Sorry GEF I was replying to Flashman (see Older Comments) but your contribution snuck in while I was typing”

    Thanks Paddy.

    “Did I miss something ? We’ve got two unionist MEPs and one nationalist, to my knowledge that’s always been the case”.

    Thanks CS for correcting my mistake.

  • Harry Flashman

    What you are complaining about here is transferable voting, which is a completely different thing.

    Oh for heaven’s sake Paddy try to keep up!

    I am not “complaining” about PR, I am trying to debunk the myth that the business vote is what put the Unionists in power in Derry. It wasn’t, there was actually a slim majority of Unionists in the Londonderry Corporation area (as opposed to Derry City which is what has always been trotted out as a red herring, witness Robert Kee above).

    It is utter balderdash to say that Alliance voters were mostly secret nationalists. My family worked with the Alliance Party in Derry in the ’70s and whilst there certainly were a handful of prominent middle class Catholics among the membership, fundamentally the Alliance voters were the remaining rump of O’Neill’s protestant-liberal Unionist camp, people who would not vote for a “Combined Loyalist” coalition involving Paisley’s DUP. It is nonsense to describe these people as closet Catholic Nationalists.

    You will at least agree that the “two-thirds majority” Nationalist Londonderry Corporation is complete bunkum surely? An eventual one-seat majority for Nationalists in 1973 hardly makes Derry the Selma, Alabama of bigotry and gerrymandering that it has been painted prior to 1969.

    The myths surrounding Derry are so deeply ingrained that debunking them can lead to people questioning the speaker’s sanity and getting violently disputatious, as I have often found to my cost when back in Derry where the mythology of oppression is imbibed with the mother’s milk.

    Witness the infamous South Ward where the tens of thousands of Nationalist voters were cruelly bottled up with disproportionately small local representation. The implication is that this had always been the case and the boundaries were drawn up deliberately to disenfranchise Nationalists.

    In fact the boundaries were drawn up in the 1920’s or 30’s (I can’t offhand recall when) at at time when they accurately reflected the population of a ward that had broad sweeping farmland for most of its southern and western quarters, ie the Creggan estate hadn’t been built yet. Indeed so non-controversial were the boundaries that they were passed unanimously without complaint by Nationalist councillors.

    Apparently Unionists were so very devious in the Thirties and so far-seeing that they knew that a Labour government would win a landslide election in 1945 and twenty-five years after drawing up the boundaries a massive public housing project, one of the biggest in western Europe would be built on those sweeping hillsides. Unionists, they’re worse than Ming the Merciless I tell you!

    Oh and wait, did I just say one of the biggest public housing projects in western Europe was built by a Unionist controlled council? And they gave the houses to, er, Catholics? Ah, hang on a minute here, that’s not what Robert Kee was telling us the big bad mean and nasty Unionists were supposed to be doing is it?

    I thought they kept all the public housing to themselves and left the Catholics to live in their slums (like the protestant working class people of Derry’s Fountain Estate who lived in slums akin to the Bogside but who were the last people in Derry to get new public housing built for them).

    People need to re-examine pre-1969 Northern Ireland with a more dispassionate eye and a lot less emotion. It actually wasn’t the living hell it is portrayed and I would have preferred being poor and Catholic and an opponent of the government in Derry than I would have in Dublin or Limerick at the same time.

  • Starviking

    That’s an excellent post Harry. I reckon there’s a PhD or two to be gained contrasting myth and reality in pre-Troubles Norn
    Iron.

  • GEF

    Good post Harry, I was based in Derry ( Ulster Squadron Fishery protection, Cod war days with Iceland) pre trouble days. If I remember correctly, although there was high un-employment for men, many girls came over from Co Donegal and other rural areas to work in the shirt factories. Many of these women later settled and lived in the new houses in the Creggan. Some of their husbands travelled to Glasgow and other Scottish and English Cities to work seasonally returning to Donegal in the Autumn time to work during the harvest . I always enjoyed the friendly-ness of the City and a couple of my shipmates married two girls from the Creggan. But the goings on within the Unionist dominated City council like other council areas in Northern Ireland was a total mystery to me and others like me with no interest in politics.

    Info on Pre Troubles Cregggan here:

    “The Creggan was originally built specifically to provide housing for the Catholic majority. Since the partition of Ireland Ulster Northern Ireland was made to make the Protestant majority control everything and make the Catholic minority have no say in the politics of Ulster. However in Derry city it was the opposite. Considering there was a Catholic majority in the city, the Protestants needed to make sure they kept control of the city at all costs. When the Bogside became so over crowded in the 1940s-1960s, the Protestant minority had to put the Catholics somewhere in the same ward in the Bogside so they kept full control. The result was a ghetto, Creggan.”

    http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creggan,_Derry&sa=U&ei=-idhUfzdJ8SWO6LdgIgG&ved=0CBsQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNHSCbl9bqwYwTwOUpPYs9_TNblJ8A

  • Harry Flashman

    “When the Bogside became so over crowded in the 1940s-1960s, the Protestant minority had to put the Catholics somewhere in the same ward in the Bogside so they kept full control. The result was a ghetto, Creggan.”

    Unfortunately GEF you’re continuing the gerrymandered South Ward myth, the Creggan was built in the South Ward because a) that’s the place nearest to Derry that had available land for development and b) that’s were the people of the Bogside wanted to live as it was so near and handy to the cityand to friends and family.

    Later as the city spread Carnhill and Shantallow were built in the northern edges of the city, but if Unionists had relocated the residents of the Bogside five miles out to the countryside at the other end of Derry (like Ballymun in Dublin) the squeals of outrage would have been even louder.

    Creggan was not built as a ghetto, the houses were built of good quality (they still are and now fetch good prices on the private market), it was near the city center and comprised shops, schools and churches with good bus links into the town (the same buses and shops that residents would then regularly burn throughout the 70s and 80s). It was built on clean rolling farmland, amid sweeping hills with a breathtaking view over the Foyle.

    Unionists did not spend millions of pounds to build a ghetto for Catholics, they spent it to get the Catholics out of the fetid ghetto of the Bogside. It is most unjust to paint it otherwise. Certainly the working-class prods of Derry in the Fountain and Northland Road or in the wee back-to-backs of the Waterside never got such good or extensive public housing built for them.

  • Morpheus

    If only someone had told the NI Civil Rights Association eh? What were they moaning about?

  • GEF

    Another good post Harry but with respect, I didn’t write the wikipedia history on Creggan so If you wish to correct the statement I enclosed (or add a correction or another view) you can do so accordingly here:

    http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creggan,_Derry&sa=U&ei=-idhUfzdJ8SWO6LdgIgG&ved=0CBsQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNHSCbl9bqwYwTwOUpPYs9_TNblJ8A

  • grandimarkey

    @GEF

    Hahahahahahaha! Read the notable places and people from that wikipedia article on the Creggan Estate, someone is having a serious laugh!

  • Kevsterino

    @Harry, I think you’ve confused the term ghetto with slum. What makes a ghetto a ghetto is a mono-ethnic population.

    98% Catholic qualifies, I think, as a ghetto.

  • GEF

    “Hahahahahahaha! Read the notable places and people from that wikipedia article on the Creggan Estate, someone is having a serious laugh!”

    grandimarkey, “There is a story, very possibly apocryphal, about a young boy playing ball in the fledgling Creggan estate when it was only a couple of dozen houses standing on a green mountain top. The lad is bouncing the ball against a gable wall to the rhythm: “The Protestants have all the houses, the Protestants have all the houses.” With that, a priest comes up and, an early exponent of political correctness, tells the youngster: ‘That’s not true, son, sure wasn’t our Lord himself born in a stable?’ Duly chastened, the wee lad recommences his bouncing to the time of: “Our Lord was born in a stable, because the Protestants have all the houses.”
    http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/places/creggan/mcguinness00.htm&sa=U&ei=woZhUZGzFITVPMDRgbgI&ved=0CCUQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNG7O6vZc6BmxQSSm11NXKVfp5XtJw

  • PaddyM

    Harry Flashman:

    Surprising that Kee repeats the mistake that Londonderry Corporation did not have a Nationalist majority due to gerrymandering.

    This may come as a huge surprise to many but that simply isn’t the case. The City of Derry certainly had a Nationalist majority but Londonderry Corporation comprised a large rural, majority-protestant hinterland.

    Em, no.

    That “large rural, majority-protestant hinterland” made up Londonderry Rural District – a separate local authority from Londonderry Corporation until 1973.

    If, as has been claimed since time immemorial, Londonderry Corporation was gerrymandered then when the electoral boundaries were reformed and the business vote abolished the Nationalists should have won their thumping great majority, right?

    Er wrong, in the first post-reform local election in 1973, on the basis of first preferences (after all one-man-one-vote was the catchcry was it not?), the Combined Loyalists won 36.8% of the vote, with Alliance (to all intents and purposes O’Neillite unionists) winning 14.5%, this was let us remember four years into a conflict that saw many protestants leaving Derry.

    The “first post-reform local election in 1973” was for the new Londonderry District Council, which contained both the old Londonderry Corporation and the prementioned “large rural, majority-protestant hinterland” of Londonderry Rural District.

    Nationalists and Republicans the soi-disant, gerrymandered majority actually won only 47% of the vote in Derry.

    Not in the same “Derry”.

    Yes, Nationalist voters were in fact a minority in Londonderry Corporation throughout the history of the Northern Ireland state.

    Nope.

    Oh, and Catholics got a bigger proportion of public housing than protestants too.

    That public housing being only built in places where it wouldn’t affect the political balance of the ward.

    Some myths die hard.

    Some lies die harder.

  • PaddyM

    Harry Flashman:

    In fact the boundaries were drawn up in the 1920′s or 30′s (I can’t offhand recall when)

    Actually, they were redrawn twice – firstly in the early 1920s and a second time in the mid 30s when it looked as if the existing gerrymander might backfire.

    Later as the city spread Carnhill and Shantallow were built in the northern edges of the city

    And outside the boundaries of the Corporation area…

  • galloglaigh

    That’s the best I’ve heard yet Harry. The good people in the Londonderry Corporation built houses in Creggan so the poor taigs could be near the city centre. It had nothing to do with corralling them into a single ward, where no matter how many lived there, it would return the same outcome for the gerrymandered Council. I do wonder sometimes.

    The last Mayor of Londonderry City Council, and the first Mayor of Derry City Council could not get a home for his young family before Creggan was built because he married a Fenian and had Fenian babies. He shared a two up two down with two other families. That inspired him into politics, and turned his view on British values on its back.

    Ireland’s troubles have always revolved around the disenfranchisement of Catholics by the Anglo-Irish elite. Our generation’s troubles started when Fenians had enough of the Orange State, and its Protestant Parliament for Protestant people. Enough was enough. Unionism still can’t share power on certain councils, and won’t do until they are forced to. Unionism only ever changes its age old attitude when the are forced to change. That is the reality of unionism in Ireland, be it this century, the last century, or the century before that.

  • GEF
  • GEF

    galloglaigh, its was not only the fur coat brigade of Orange Prods from the UUP after WW2 who played the gerrymandering game in Londonderry corporation. Gerrymandering began in the dear old USA were millions of Irish Americans believe they live in the land of the free were no racism, or religious discrimination exists at least against poor Irish Catholics. Furthermore even those poor fenians who were so wrongly done by you keep harping on about were treated wrongly by the Anglo Irish elite, just love playing the gerrymandering game themselves. Catholic against Catholic without one of those Anglo Irish elite or bigoted Orange prod in sight. See here:

    GERRYMANDERING IN IRELAND

    “In 1947 the rapid rise of new party Clann na Poblachta threatened the position of the governing party Fianna Fáil. The government of Éamon de Valera introduced the Electoral Amendment Act, 1947, which increased the size of the Dáil from 138 to 147 and increased the number of three-seat constituencies from fifteen to twenty-two. The result was described by the journalist and historian Tim Pat Coogan as “a blatant attempt at gerrymander which no Six County Unionist could have bettered.”[38] The following February the 1948 general election was held and Clann na Poblachta secured ten seats instead of the nineteen they would have received proportional to their vote.[38]”

    http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering&sa=U&ei=RGViUZrQIsTfOZzggIgJ&ved=0CBsQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNFz7xAm8fUu7hxRVOWDSSesPiWYZQ

  • GEF

    2nd attempt on last post.

    galloglaigh, have you any ideas were the Creggan should have been built to please the poor Catholics of stroke city, and what do you think would have happened had the said housing estate been built over on the waterside?

    Regards Gerrymandering its was not only fur coat Orange Prods who played at that game in politics. Gerrymandering started in USA were millions of Irish Americans seem to think they live in the land democracy, republican style. Even those poor fenians who you keep harping on about were treated so wrongly by the Anglo Irish elite, seem to have enjoyed playing the gerrymandering game themselves. Catholic against Catholic without an member of the Anglo Irish elite or a bigoted Orange prod in sight. See here:

    GERRYMANDERING IN IRELAND

    “In 1947 the rapid rise of new party Clann na Poblachta threatened the position of the governing party Fianna Fáil. The government of Éamon de Valera introduced the Electoral Amendment Act, 1947, which increased the size of the Dáil from 138 to 147 and increased the number of three-seat constituencies from fifteen to twenty-two. The result was described by the journalist and historian Tim Pat Coogan as “a blatant attempt at gerrymander which no Six County Unionist could have bettered.”[38] The following February the 1948 general election was held and Clann na Poblachta secured ten seats instead of the nineteen they would have received proportional to their vote.[38]”

    http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering&sa=U&ei=RGViUZrQIsTfOZzggIgJ&ved=0CBsQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNFz7xAm8fUu7hxRVOWDSSesPiWYZQ

  • galloglaigh

    Well done GEF your Blue Peter Badge and your Blankety Blank cheque book and pen are in the post!

  • Zig70[1.01] Regarding Dodds and his customary double standards, it’s like the goalkeeper’s fear of the penalty, his dreaded fear of N Belfast voters. The DUP might as well go the whole hog and publish their private polls, as their cries for help dressed up in attacks on Alliance are showing us what the flag debacle deriving from Peter’s own hand is revealing what they contain.

  • GEF

    Much appreciated galloglaigh, I will wear it with pride.
    Now that all the old bad days are over and the dreaded Unionist majority is only a bad dream, at present Derry City council have a 24 seat Nationalist majority with only 6 Unionist seats. But how much has changed since 1968 in 2013 Derry has still the highest unemployment rate in NI.

    http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://www.ilex-urc.com/Citi-Stats/Employment—Economy/Unemployment.aspx&sa=U&ei=SqdiUbygGofJPJ6VgYgH&ved=0CC8QFjAD&usg=AFQjCNFkkAdiPU-K8CNjz83XTL-EEFf5ug

    So when all the Irish music, dancing jigs etc, drinking plenty of the black stuff and enjoying the numerous nationalist jovial events organized for the 2013 City of Culture year are over, what do the Nationalist Catholic majority have in store to help the poor Catholic unemployed of Derry City in 2014 and onwards?

  • galloglaigh

    GEF

    Gutter sniping!

  • galloglaigh

    On a brighter note Thatcher’s dead!

  • sonofstrongbow

    As it has already been observed no one will ever wean Irish nationalists off their self perception as the Most Oppressed People Ever.

    It is imbibed with their mothers’ milk and regularly replenished by a worldview that sees them right up there with JC; although of course suffering much worse tortures naturally.

    Armenians? Jews? Native Americans? Don’t give them that, the poor croppie wrote the book on torments that would have Torquemada wincing.

    Living in a shoebox in the middle of the road? Sheer luxury compared to a nationalist’s lot.

  • Morpheus

    @sonofstrongbow

    What a bizarre comment! You have issues m’old china.

    I’d love to see what your reaction would be if SF were gerrymandering the boundaries to ensure that unionism was left in the cold at the next elections.

    FFS, the flag-flying policy at BCC was changed to match the rest of the UK and we had attempted murder, firebombs, riots, protesters and Wee Willie Frazer and his illegal wee tazer unleashed on the population!

  • GEF

    GEF Gutter sniping!

    Come come now galloglaigh, can you not accept reality about the unemployment level in Derry City even at present or are you one of those who believe when Derry is one day in the dream Shangri-La of a 32 county UI all will be fulfilled.

  • galloglaigh

    GEF

    Your trolling deserves no answer. Keep sniping from the gutter it suits your character!

  • Barnshee

    GG

    Come GG — address the issue– retreat to invective only supports the opposition. We do have serious employment issues in Derry ( and W Belfast). Causes/ solutions need to be addressed

  • GEF

    Exactly Barnsee, and with numerous out of work young republicans living in these two predominant Catholic areas worse times are ahead according to the recent news regards housing and other welfare benefit cuts coming out of Westminster by the present Tory party. The SF leader who lived in W Belfast (whose mug shot is in the photo at the beginning of this topic) has already resigned both Westminster and MLA Stormont seats and relocated south of the border to live in Co Meath. So much help he is going to be.

  • galloglaigh

    Derry’s main problem is a lack of infrastructure which has its origins in the Orange State. The City Of Culture has highlighted this problem and it’s not half way there yet. We have a good economic outlook, but Westminster’s failure to deal with the city’s legacy issues continue to provide ample young men for the generational problem of unemployable and uninterested youths. While the men on the dole played a mother’s role and all that. Derry’s problems are most certainly not exclusively internal, but we do have that to a small degree. We have no University, bar a few buildings which are part of the University of Ulster. We have terrible road and rail infrastructure leading to the city. Ironically the only good roads we have we’re either part funded by Dublin, or as in the case of Derry to Leterkenny, wholly funded by Dublin.

    All the nonsense above from the regular apologists of oppression is nothing new to us Derry folk. We will prevail and we shall overcome!

  • GEF

    GG, your so called hated Unionist Londonderry City Corporation at least brought employment to some 7000 women, mostly who were Catholic from the Bogside and Creggan areas of the City. Interesting history here:

    Thriving industry is no more: Glory days of shirt factories recalled “More than 30 firms in Derry were making shirts and collars – employing in the region of 7,000 women and girls and thousands more out-workers in the surrounding districts. Derry was rightly proud of its world-famous shirt-making tradition. A century later, however, a once thriving industry is no more – the glory days gone.”

    http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://www.derryjournal.com/news/local/thriving-industry-is-no-more-glory-days-of-shirt-factories-recalled-1-2126412&sa=U&ei=8PtiUaCCNoa-PdmtgHg&ved=0CCIQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNF8zD1xK_R2L198hXJ1qcjodf0C9A

  • Reader

    galloglaigh: Ironically the only good roads we have we’re either part funded by Dublin, or as in the case of Derry to Leterkenny, wholly funded by Dublin.
    I don’t think one would need to be rabidly Orange to think that there were better uses for public money than building a road, largely in the Republic, between Derry and the teeming metropolis of Letterkenny (Pop. 19,558)

  • galloglaigh

    GEF

    You’ve two badges on the way!

    Reader

    Aren’t we lucky that you’re just an internet troll, and not someone who actually makes decisions that affect the good people of Derry and Donegal!

    Have a look at Letterkenny’s growing and admired technology and pharmaceutical sectors! Letterkenny is a success story in Ireland’s economic gloom times!

    You do need to take those bigot glasses off as they are clouding your vision!

  • GEF

    “GEF You’ve two badges on the way!”

    Oh, you are so awful GG, but I like you. Have to work hard now for my third one. Hope the weather stays fine so all you good Stroke City republicans enjoy your day out mourning a former PM’s passing.

    http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/headlines/in-pictures-crowds-celebrate-thatcher-s-death-1-4976619

    Even Lord Bannside is having a great time in another “I love me and Jesus” 87 birthday party. Looks like Dr Paisley is going to outlive all his old adversaries, No doubt Lord Bannside along with the wee Baroness missus Eileen will be attending the late Tory party PM’s funeral.

    http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/lord-bannside-celebrates-87th-birthday-1-4973831

  • Reader

    galloglaigh: Have a look at Letterkenny’s growing and admired technology and pharmaceutical sectors! Letterkenny is a success story in Ireland’s economic gloom times!
    So the N3 brought Derry into Letterkenny’s commuter belt. How many jobs is that worth? And the wikipedia page suggests the town depends on cross border trade – so it looks like a good use of Dublin money, but not a good use of Belfast money.

  • Starviking

    Kevsterino,

    @Harry, I think you’ve confused the term ghetto with slum. What makes a ghetto a ghetto is a mono-ethnic population.

    98% Catholic qualifies, I think, as a ghetto.

    Given the way we separate ourselves from our neighbours of differeing religions in Northwern Ireland, “ghetto” is not really a suitable word – if it were, there are some nice middle-class ghettos on the way in to Lurgan on the road from Portadown.

  • Starviking

    galloglaigh,

    Derry’s main problem is a lack of infrastructure which has its origins in the Orange State.

    You’ve got your airport, seaport, railway, and road infrastructure such as the Foyle Bridge. If the troubles had not intervened you might have gotten a motorway too.

  • galloglaigh

    Reader

    Someone with a username ‘Reader’ using wikipedia is somewhat ironic!

    Starviking

    Give the Fenians a bridge and that’ll shut them up. Have you ever taken the train from Derry to Belfast? Parts of the line it goes 20mph. You’re another troll; the reason why I’ve stopped commenting on Slugger. Too many big men hiding behind keyboards!

  • Starviking

    Give the Fenians a bridge and that’ll shut them up. Have you ever taken the train from Derry to Belfast? Parts of the line it goes 20mph. You’re another troll; the reason why I’ve stopped commenting on Slugger. Too many big men hiding behind keyboards!

    Have you ever taken the train from Belfast to Armagh recently?

    As for trolling, your reponse could qualify as such – no substative replies. If you cared to quantify how Derry’s infrastructure has been so hard-done by the Orange State, state which planned to build the M23 to the Maiden City until direct rule ministers cancelled it, compared to the rest of Northern Ireland – I’d love to hear it.

  • ayeYerMa

    I got as far as the bit only a few minutes in where the narrator stated how awful it was for British propaganda to, SHOCK HORROR!, stand up for its own citizens but mock the traitorous south, and then the bit where he implied how the Queen should somehow be.. “offended” by the fact that she was greeted by a Lambeg drum (FFS!, eyes are rolling here). That’s as much as I need to hear to know that this is simply a documentary where the goal of the producer/narrator is simply to look at the PIRA and try to show how wonderful and “balanced” he is by trying to justify their position, with the end result being an IRA propaganda video. Maybe I am wrong, and I will come back and try and watch the whole thing when I have more energy, but as it stood it was so cringe-worthily bad and biased that I couldn’t stomach any more.

    Having said that, the acknowledgement that the pre-Provo IRAs were constantly “chipping away” against the NI state right from the very beginning of NI until many decades later is one that many revisionists need frequent reminding here of.