The murder of David Black and our wafer thin ‘politics of condemnation’…

It shouldn’t be let pass the murder of Prison Officer David Black without some comment here on Slugger. Early indications are that official responses are largely of the type Sinn Fein used to dismiss as ‘the politics of condemnation’.

Some republicans are even starting to toy with the idea that the security forces (with their supposedly blanket infiltration may even have had some ulterior motive for letting this happen.

The truth is that for 200 years there have been generations of Irishmen who believed that killing other Irishmen would lead to the end of British occupation of the island of Ireland.

That that strategy, particularly in the 90 years since partition, has drawn a blank has hardly been a deterrent to would be revolutionaries.

The unremitting focus on the past almost to the exclusion of any consideration of the future is exacerbated by an ongoing financial crisis in which local politicians are more like passengers.

Listening to RTE this morning, and in particular some of the deliberations from Kilkenny and the Kilkenomics festival the contrast with the south could not be more stark.

The Republic may not have much of a future, but the open competition of its political system at least has the virtue of forcing its politicians to confront it.

The tragic death of David Black is being treated more like an embarrassing detail that no one wants or looks for an explanation . Doubly so, since this is a tactic straight out of the Provisional IRA playbook of twenty years ago.

So we are left with the once despised ‘politics of condemnation’.

No matter that it began life as a construct to prevent SF having to condemn the latest atrocity of the IRA, it seems for politicians of the Peace Process era, that’s all there is…

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    “The tragic death of David Black”

    Mick it the correct description would be the cold blooded assassination of Mr Black. To use the term “tragic death” indicates some sort of accident. This was an assassination by Irish republicans plain and simple.

  • Carrickmoreman

    “The tragic death of David Black is being treated more like an embarrassing detail that no one wants or looks for an explanation.”

    This is true, considering how long it took for Slugger to discuss this murder.

  • Dec

    ‘Doubly so, since this is a tactic straight out of the Provisional IRA playbook of twenty years ago.’

    It’s also a tactic straight out of the UVF handbook from 19 years ago: prison protest = dead prison officer. Though the PUP, with their demands that the ‘catholic community’ provide information to the PSNI, appear to be avoiding getting pulled up on their brass-necked hypocrisy.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Here is the start of the republican campaign to demean Mr Black’s memory so they can start to justify his assassination.

    However on radio this morning several ex-prisoners phoned into the Nolan show and said that Mr Black was a fine prison officer and a very decent man.

    Morgan McShane ‏@morganmcs32
    Former POW says man killed was member of the punishment squad who took great pleasure in torturing republicans #karma #lurgan #shooting

    https://twitter.com/morganmcs32

  • “The tragic death of David Black is being treated more like an embarrassing detail that no one wants or looks for an explanation . Doubly so, since this is a tactic straight out of the Provisional IRA playbook of twenty years ago.”

    Indeed, and in your Blog you don’t once mention the prison protest and the failure to implement the 2010 agreement on strip searching. Also the only other prison officer killed in the last 20 years was James Peacock by the UVF in Ballysillan, republicans had largely stopped targeting them after the prison protests settled down in the late 80’s.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    I see the SDLP blogger who wrote a long winded whine about how shocked he was at how hard life is for prisoners, has removed his post.

    http://emmetdoyle.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/when-i-thought-i-couldnt-be-shocked.html

    But fortunately Ardoyne Republican blogger Martin Meehan has it in all its sickening shocked detail.

    http://ardoynerepublican.blogspot.co.uk/

    Remind me has Albin McGuinness or anyone from the SDLP been on the media telling us how offended they are at this assassination???

  • Charlie Sheens PR guru

    I think Dolores Kelly, who’s constituency the murder took place in, was among the first, if not the first.

    I listening to the reverend talking about him as a good member of his congregation. And I thought he spoke very well.. until near the end.

    I was disturbed when he said, and I’m paraphrasing, “The first thing the family wanted me to make clear that want no retaliation”

    Retaliation from whom? Dissident republicans, whether its individuals, RAAD , RIRA, 32CSM.. whoever, have attacked, and killed people already whether its GAA playing policemen or locals suspected of doing a bit of drug dealing, they have targeted them. Over the course of those horrendous killings, while we heard many source condemn them and pledge their support to the police, I didn’t hear once the word “retaliation” uttered.

    Why now?

    It has since emerged that this gentleman was a 30 year member of the orange order as well as a prison officer. Am I to believe that this killing is not the same as other killings or attempted killings? Has it adopted a sectarian edge, however inadvertently by virtue of this man’s background?

    If so, it compounds a tragedy for me. Unless I’m very being very naive here, and he was targeted deliberately because of his background.

    Anyone?

  • Fried Young Cannibal

    There’s no point even saying anything to those still supporting this or carrying it out. Either they are stupid and deluded enough to actually believe that they are on the road to a united Ireland from it, or they are just into it because they love violence. Either way there is no talking to them.

  • iluvni

    Any condemnation from sdlp will ring hollow.

  • between the bridges

    Only the murderers can tell us whether Mr blacks membership of the OO was a factor in his murder or not, at the very least i suspect that it didn’t deter them.
    He is the 337 OO member to be murdered since 1970, approx 1 in 6 of all PIRA victims where OO members and yes many were in the security forces. Add in the thousands of attacks on OO halls and remind me of all the coincident’s…

  • Charlie Sheens PR guru

    BtB,

    “at the very least i suspect it didn’t deter them.”

    That’s a bit of a straw man argument isn’t it? The fact that Ronan Kerr was a GAA playing SF supporting member of the security forces didn’t deter them either.

    “1 in 6 of all PIRA victims where OO members”

    what about the other 5/6? We have the likes of ‘Don’t Drink Bleach’ come on here posting a 100-line IRA death list complete with sectarian score card of who’s who and what’s what. Reminding us all that IRA killed more catholics than the loyalists before anyone gets too uppity about loyalists being sectarian.

    You can’t both be right can you?

    It’s what bothers me about this, a man has lost his life in these circumstances and the man speaking on his behalf, perhaps inadvertently, or naively, made the story distinct from the spate of other attacks.

  • Submariner

    @ Ardoyne Unionist this man was not assassinated he was murdered plain and simple.

    @ Between the Bridges i doubt his membership of the OO had anything to do with his murder. These scum-bags murdered him for the job he did. Also since you brought it up how many of that 337 were Loyalist terrorists or do they not count.

  • That’s a bit of a straw man argument isn’t it? The fact that Ronan Kerr was a GAA playing SF supporting member of the security forces didn’t deter them either

    Do we actually know he supported Sinn Fein? All I remember was the dFM claiming the dead man’s vote.

  • Charlie Sheens PR guru

    Conquistador,

    Yeah I agree. I think it was the crassness of Martin McGuiness claiming a dead man’s vote that made me think he must be absolutely sure i.e. had a conversation with the mother or what not.

    But I’d happily subtract the SF voting bit if you like. It makes little difference to the point.

  • galloglaigh

    Dissident scumbags, whose membership is growing, have seen weakness in the political process. This year’s coming together of all shades of loyalism, culminated with the coming together of dissident groups, will continue to unravel the Peace Process. With current weak governments on these islands, we could easily slip back into conflict. That is not what is needed right now, nor is it wanted by the people of this island of whatever creed or colour.

    While people may object to the status quo, indeed some within political and cultural unionism, just as in political and cultural nationalism, they are in a minority. The people of Ireland want their economy to recover. The people of Ireland want their people to live in peace. The people of Ireland don’t want any of this. This being sectarianism by loyalist bands, law breaking by unionist cultural organisations, or the shooting of civil servants by scumbag dissidents.

    The battle for Irish freedom should be fought using constitutional means, and any other battle, as history has shown, has not and will not ever work.

  • tacapall

    Whats this about Mick.

    “Some republicans are even starting to toy with the idea that the security forces (with their supposedly blanket infiltration may even have had some ulterior motive for letting this happen”

  • John Ó Néill

    Mick, in reality, none of this is anything other than the standard playbook from 20+ years ago. I don’t have War on Words to hand, but there is a great synposis of reporting policy for fatalities that dislocates them from any political context. The standard political expediency technique you use above is another from the same handbook as it repeatedly references SF and the IRA when the last murder of a prison officer was by the UVF and this was one carried out by republicans who are opposed to SF and the IRA (as nailed by Ulick @3.46pm above). The lack of context given to this will merely reinforce the mindset of those who killed David Black – internally they will just dismiss the lack of context given to this by the media as demonstrating how everyone ‘is against them’, and paradoxically, still fails to draw them into any form of debate or forum where they would have to actually explain how these tactics might actually deliver their strategic goal (generally described as a socialist Irish republic). So lose, lose here.

    It seems everyone’s old habits die hard.

  • Mc Slaggart

    Mick
    “Some republicans are even starting to toy with the idea that the security forces (with their supposedly blanket infiltration may even have had some ulterior motive for letting this happen.”

    Can you provide any evidence of this?

  • Mc Slaggart

    Mick
    “The Republic may not have much of a future,”

    Please provide some evidence to this claim? It is not a view I have come across in the rest of Europe.

  • Mick Fealty

    I’m as much a creature of habit as much as the next person. But I was self consciously referencing an older discourse to suggest that what’s missing in our post conflict politics is a strong sense of forward direction.

    What’s been the topic du jour for the last year? Dealing (or rather not dealing) with the Past. There are a series of campaigns calling for judicial inquiries into the past (both real and alleged) misdemeanours of the state.

    The inclusive institutions of Stormont are creating a situation where the need to go back to the capital base for each of the two parties in OFMdFM is consistently throwing the focus back on past inequities, rather than enlarging the shadow of the future.

    That’s more problematic now that it might have been ten years ago, since the options for opening out seem to be closing in. But to be clear, what I’m arguing here is that the ‘politics of condemnation’ is what you are left with when you have no actual politics to offer.

    The rest is all sound and fury, a tale told… well, you know what comes next…

  • Toastedpuffin

    “while we heard many source condemn them and pledge their support to the police, I didn’t hear once the word “retaliation” uttered.”

    IIRC there was talk of retaliation following Ronan Kerr’s murder, although I suspect much of that was Republican wishful thinking.

    Whatever the case, finding fault with someone for appealing for no retaliation strikes me as bizarre in the extreme.

  • Mick Fealty

    McS,

    1, Yes. 2, Listen to Pat Kenny Today, from erm, today.

    Now how long do you want to remain a contributing member of this community?

  • Reader

    Charlie Sheen’s PR Guru: Retaliation from whom? Dissident republicans, whether its individuals, RAAD , RIRA, 32CSM.. whoever, have attacked, and killed people already whether its GAA playing policemen or locals suspected of doing a bit of drug dealing, they have targeted them. Over the course of those horrendous killings, while we heard many source condemn them and pledge their support to the police, I didn’t hear once the word “retaliation” uttered. Why now?
    You have quoted some stuff from DDB, so I expect you know from his previous posts exactly where he is coming from – there is, quite clearly, a section of loyalism that still believes in tit-for-tat killings, whether as a political tactic or just as an excuse. And although the distinction may seem artificial, there will be even more chaotic headcases out there who will be wondering what to do once they have got tanked-up this weekend.
    Those are the guys to be influenced, right now.

  • fordprefect

    Galloglaigh
    Were you once a “republican”?. It wasn’t so long ago that the IRA that McGuinness said he was in up until 1974, were being called the same and worse. Personally I don’t want anyone to be killed (for whatever reason), but, this killing harks back to the H Block protests of the late 70’s, early 80’s. It was inevitable that something like this was going to happen, given the way that protesting Republican prisoners are being treated in Maghaberry today. I would also call into question Martin McGuinness’s satement, that “action rather than words” are needed now, does he mean railroading people into jail (even if they are innocent?), does he mean the use of undercover cop/brit units? He needs to be pulled up on this, because if innocent people are killed by them (which happened in the past, not to mention innocent people serving decades in jail for things that they didn’t do). By the way, Peter Robinson keeps referring to them as “deviants” if he wants to see a deviant he should look no further than his wife!

  • tacapall

    I remember David Black from way back, I had the pleasure of his company for a while, some prison officers are a nasty piece of work but he seemed a decent sort then. No matter, his killing is unjustifiable and counterproductive to the cause those who killed him are trying to forward.

  • galloglaigh

    fordprefect

    Were you once a “republican”?

    I’ve always been a “republican”: I will always be a “republican”.

    The rest of your post can be addressed by those it’s aimed at. Their emails are available online.

    Try google!

  • Covenanter

    “Also since you brought it up how many of that 337 were Loyalist terrorists or do they not count.”

    The Submariner was doing quite well up until this point. Amongst all the condemnation on this thread we have the usual “whatabout the loyalists”, and sly hints about the victim being in the Orange Order. Then along comes the Submariner who briefly surfaces to suggest that some murders are more acceptable than others.

  • socaire

    This man may indeed have been a decent man to his family and friends. He was unfortunate to have been chosen to die by faceless men with no mandate. But what takes the biscuit is for representatives from Sinn Fein Nua to stand up and condemn their ‘legitimate’ successors for actions that they were only too happy to engage in a few short years ago. If it was ok then , it is ok now and if it is wrong now, it was wrong then. These new constitutional nationalists would make your skin crawl. It gives the expression ‘brass neck’ a new airing.

  • Mc Slaggart

    Mick Fealty

    Why are you asking me?

    “Now how long do you want to remain a contributing member of this community?”

    What have I asked of you that is unreasonable?

    Your response of

    “1, Yes.”

    Makes me think you do not as if you did you would give the details.

    BTW:
    If you want only people on slugger who agree with you that is your business.

  • DC

    fatalities that dislocates them from any political context. The standard political expediency technique you use above is another from the same handbook

    I am actually beginning to think John O Neill is a bot, perhaps some sort of republican bot, programmed to execute on Slugger in response to certain script.

    It seems everyone’s old habits die hard.

    Not quite, just those certain people that thrive off criminal energy.

    Chatter has it that this might tempt certain loyalists out into action, imo it would be misplaced for any retaliation but seriously why would anyone in loyalism want to retaliate in response to an incredibly narrow dispute concerning a handful of dissident Republicans, it is simply dissident prison politics.

    Is there any proof that these prisoners are being abused and beaten up, that’s what I have heard? Or is it simply a case of being extremely oversensitive to necessary prison officer security frisking here and there? Is this grievance politics of the prison variety gone totally mad?

  • Neil

    Is this grievance politics of the prison variety gone totally mad?

    Nah, it’s part of the wider effort to generate support I’d say. A prison dispute going out of hand can certainly light the touchpaper in this part of the world. It would be a sign that the dissidents are copying, a far as possible, exactly what the IRA did. They just need the state to respond in a ridiculous, disproportionate manner, which I suspect the state will not as they’re wise to the dangers now.

  • DC

    It just seems to come across as very personal to the organisation than political.

    A bit like ‘we’re getting frisked and all bothered by it so we’re going to whack one of youse.’

  • fordprefect

    Galloglaigh
    So you are and always were a “republican”? If you are a member or supporter of SF, then you are a constitutional nationalist at best, or in my estimation you are a constitutional unionist. If you had have read my reply instead of trying to be a smart alec (i.e. google it), I said I don’t want to see anyone killed no matter what the reason. It’s typical SF knee-jerk reaction as in when anything they say or do is questioned, the person questioning it is either a “dissident” or they’re against the “peace process”. I don’t normally agree with Socaire, (I think) but he or she is right about the brass neck SF reps have when it comes to things like this!

  • Mick Fealty

    McS,

    As a veteran of two red cards, you are taking yet another stroll a particularly short pier this time.

    Agreement/disagreement is not an issue (as usual, you’ve done neither). But trolling is.

  • Mc Slaggart

    Mick

    Your claim that “Listen to Pat Kenny Today” is somehow proof of “The Republic may not have much of a future,” I will let other judge but I think it a terrible weak accusation to make on starting a thread Which was supposed to be about the murder of Prison officer.

    Not providing any thing at all to support your claim of

    ““Some republicans are even starting to toy with the idea that the security forces (with their supposedly blanket infiltration may even have had some ulterior motive for letting this happen.”

    From my perspective both were offensive trolling of the worst kind were you wrote then with the “primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional respons”

    You accuse me of trolling for asking you to back up your claims? I will let others decide who has been doing the trolling.

  • galloglaigh

    If you are a member or supporter of SF

    You are making assumptions of me, based on what you imagine me to be. Your own tin of Brasso, I assume, is still in use?

    If we all worked on the assumption
    that what is accepted as true is really true,
    there would be little hope of advance

  • socaire

    If the Almighty says you were trolling. McS, then you were trolling. End of story.

  • vanhelsing

    best line I’ve seen of slugger for a while “If you want only people on slugger who agree with you that is your business”

    This was a senseless murder of a decent man. I would imagine there are decent screws and not so decent ones – from all I’ve heard this poor fellow was the former.

    Many of us lived through the worst of the troubles. An RUC Officer murdered by an UCBT or a innocent Catholic gunned down by the UVF. Clearly most of us never want to go back there.

    I heard John Mooney on The View last night “they don’t believe they will destabilize the peace process – what they are trying to do is to sustain and create a new type of IRA organisation”.

    I hope that MI5 are crawling all over them.

    Finally my deepest sympathy and respects to John Blacks family.

  • Toastedpuffin

    Leaving aside the fact that Sinn Fein’s stance regarding violence doesn’t stand up to even the gentlest of strutiny, the novelty value of their condemnation of Republican acts of terror would gain a tiny bit more credibility if they laid off their vile “re-enactments” involving both IRA and INLA death squad nostalgia.

  • fordprefect

    Galloglaigh
    “If we all worked on the assumption” etc, etc., straight out of SF’s handbook!

  • galloglaigh

    fordperfect

    Again, you’re making assumptions based on who you’d like me to be. You’re wrong. What more can I say or do?

    I’ve spoken my mind. It’s how I see it. If you see what I see as somewhat different, that’s your problem, not mine sir.

  • socaire

    What about: the vile re-enactments of the suppression of the native Irish? And try to stop thinking of them in terms of ‘Sinn Féin’ and ‘Republicans’. These people are pro-Treaty, pro-Stormont and pro-Constitution. They have taken the anti-Republican side in this littlest of civil wars.

  • keano10

    Van Helsing has mentioned John Mooney’s excellent analysis on last night’s The View which certainly shredded some new light on the thinking of the newly combined dissident organisations. Their lack of any political statements following their attacks seems to be quite calculated as they are aware that their small military capacity is incapable of acheiving any political progress in the forseeable future. Instead they seem intent on building a singular and unified military unit to inherit the role which was filled by others in decades past.

    They seem to have finally agreed on a direction albeit one which is futile to the vast majority of their fellow Nationalists and Unionists. I cannot forsee any major growth within their ranks and therefore the attacks will presumably continue to be sporadic and isolated.

    Dont expect any political justification for this or other attacks as they have clearly recognised that political engagement is not part of their raison d’etre.

  • As well as the arrests by the PSNI, the Gardai have arrested a man in connection with this vile murder. Good to see the cooperation between the two forces.

  • fordprefect

    Socaire
    100%! LOL.

  • fordprefect

    Mister Joe
    Yeah, innocent until proven otherwise.

  • galloglaigh

    fordperfect

    Yeah, until proven otherwise. The irony 🙂

  • fordprefect,

    Totally agree. The police are required to investigate and, if they find credible evidence, forward it to the Public Prosecutor’s office for criminal charges to be laid. Then it’s up to the Courts to find innocence or guilt.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I agree with ArdoyneUnionist, it was assassination/murder, it was carried out by bitter and evil men who thrive on conflict and the buzz they get from taking life.

    As for the attempts to try to slander the name of the victim, republicans have form in this area. Whenever Robert McCartney was murdered some years ago graffiti started appearing in certain republican neighbourhoods attempting to cast him as some sort of sex offender who had it coming to him.

    I also detect a pattern that the killings and other action seem to die down when certain persons are in jail, and flare back up again when those persons are on the outside. I recall this effect too, some years ago whenever Johnny Adair was running his sectarian gangs around Belfast, riling up youngsters and daring them to go out and carry out assassinations. The killings and interface incidents stepped up each time he was allowed out on compassionate leave or for Christmas. When they locked him up again it stopped.

    It seems clear to me that we need to deal with these organizations using special powers. We need to start prosecuting people for membership of proscribed organizations.

  • Comrade Stalin

    keano10,

    I agree with you as well. These killings look less political and more like bloodsport to me.

  • Toastedpuffin

    “What about: the vile re-enactments of the suppression of the native Irish?”

    Well at least you’d the honesty to use “what about” in your whataboutery.

    Tell you what (about): When loyalist death squads in bonnet and lace armed to the teeth with matchlocks drive down the M1 and riddle someone’s car with shot, then you’ll have a point.

    Until then, let’s concentrate on why our elected members of the NI Assembly think it’s appropriate for people to gear up in combats with assault rifle replicas/de-acts and “re-enact” (their phrase) activities of IRA and INLA death squads that are well within living memory.

    As for the Republican naval-gazing, meh. Tales of the Cult’s internal narrative are like a tranquiliser dart in the neck.

  • Toastedpuffin

    Mark:

    I commended him/her on his/her honesty. It’s still whataboutery to avoid the point I made (as indeed you’ve done also) no matter what the choice of words.

  • Mark

    Toastedpuffin ,

    Fair enough on the whataboutery …the standard defence mechanism that we should all drop .

    I don’t have an answer to your second point .

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Submariner 2 November 2012 at 4:54 pm

    “@ Ardoyne Unionist this man was not assassinated he was murdered plain and simple”.

    I will refer to the assassination of David Black as I see fit, and I see fit to refer to it as an assassination is that plain and simple.

  • Mark

    Sunday Times journo John Mooney has been mentioned on this thread . He appeared on both Spotlight and the View this week .On both programmes he claims that the current ” IRA ” has no values and are ” in it ” for the money , that they want to ensure they’re the top dogs in any future underworld . Yet their members are on a dirty protest in jail , hardly the actions of criminals . When Mooney wrote Black Ops about the Real IRA , he used Plato’s quote ” only the dead have seen the end of War ” ……..make your mind up John !

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Comrade Stalin your 2 November 2012 at 8:52 pm

    100% Agree.

  • Red Lion

    Except its not ‘just like the 80’s’ mark

  • Mark

    It is in the jails Red Lion …and while some will think ” so what ” ..the last thing we need are young people dying in there . And it could easily go that way ..

  • Mark

    Five comments awaiting moderation ??

  • There was some controversy a while back about people who might be at risk of being murdered being refused personal protection licences for firearms. Was that ever resolved? It wouldn’t likely have saved Mr. Black should he have had such a licence and firearm, but this latest murder shows that the SOS’ recent pronouncement that the thread is severe is 100% correct.

  • keano10

    Mark,

    You are totally incorrect in stating that John Mooney stated on The View that the ” current IRA have no values and are in it for the money”. You have completely fabricated that comment as he said no such thing whatsoever. I suggest you watch that programme again as he said nothing remotely like that…

  • Red Lion

    the last thing we need is our police and prison officers being murdered, and the general population especially in working class areas being tormented , brutalized and terrorised by fascist dissident republican or any other type of paramilitary.

  • Mark

    Keano10 ,

    If you’ve read his articles in the Times recently concerning Republicans in Dublin or his book ” Black Ops ” you may ( ? ) come to the same conclusion as me …or maybe not .

  • Mick Fealty

    Mark,

    Sometimes you just wade in like a bear with a sore head. That exchange between you and Joe was personal, uncalled for, and out of bounds. Its gone and not coming back.

    Take a deep breath (and a paracetamol) and start again.

  • Mark

    The sore head is from reading all the insults about you over on P.IE …lol ,

    I suppose ” wading in ” beats being called ” sloppy” .

    I normally need more than a parcacetomol after reading Joe’s posts .

    Only joking Joe …..

  • theelk11

    Watching the late late show
    Luke bloom on singing a song penned by himself in praise of the visit the queen it was the most smug self congratulating piece of doggerel I have listened to. Was I supposed to be placated by this

    A political murder happened on this island yesterday and a nice song was the Montrose response. If you are a true republican this is an open goal if you are a unionist it’s face palm time again..

  • forthman

    Mick,
    You really cannot control yourself. You callously used the killing of a prison officer by dissident republicans, to launch a diatribe against Sinn Fein! Why did you not direct your ‘rage’ at the dissidents? Then i suppose i’m being a bit harsh, considering your own experience of the conflict is purely academic. What was it? Driving by the scene of an ambush attempt? We, the ‘other lot’, have grown up with it, and lived through it!
    Then again, in fairness, you are only delivering the message your pay-master insists on!

  • forthman

    Mick,
    Would you please explain what you meant when you stated that …” ..The republic may not have much of a future…”..
    What complete utter unionist drivel. Catch yourself on and start telling the truth about the so-called ‘Irish bailout’. You are feeding pure ignorance!

  • Charlie Sheens PR guru

    Toastedpuffin,

    “Whatever the case, finding fault with someone for appealing for no retaliation strikes me as bizarre in the extreme.”

    I’ll repeat again, retaliation against who? How can you retaliate when the murder was less than 48 hours ago and no one charged? Or would retaliation when uttered in this way mean “what we all think it means”?

    Reader,

    you kind of said what I was trying to tease out of people here. It seemed like an unfortunate tit-fot-tat reference to me. Even if the dissidents have a list of every car registration and every route to and from work and targeted them equally it could still be interrupted as a sectarian killing.

  • forthman

    Why mention it?

  • forthman

    Who’s going to retaliate?

  • UserAinm

    Charlie,

    I’m not sure what you’re upset about here, no retaliation is clear in and of itself.
    Let’s not pretend this was anything other than a hit on one section of our community, and that retaliation if it came would come on another section. Often on someone innocent of any type of involvement other than wrong place wrong time. I live in North Belfast and could do without having to worry about reprisals. It’s admirable that Mr Black’s family have put that statement out.
    Not in our name.

  • Mick Fealty

    Forthman,

    Do you ever pay attention to southern politics/economics?

    I said it may not have much of a future (listen to two US economists and the reception they got on PKToday yesterday morning, and other economists on the unsustainability of the debt burden). I did NOT say it did not have a future.

    In fact if you weren’t so lazy in your assumptions you’d see that what I’m actually arguing is the south does have a future in part because the electorate has the means to force its government to confront it.

    I’d accuse you of being a partitionist, but that would be:

    – playing the man;

    – besides the point of arguing in the first place.

    My argument is not generically unionist or nationalist. It’s about politics. Remember that? It was big in the 60s?

  • changeisneeded

    “My argument is not generically unionist or nationalist. It’s about politics. Remember that? It was big in the 60s?”

    The good old days when the taigs knew their place huh?

  • Mick Fealty

    Funny, but that’s not at all what I meant. I was thinking, civil rights, community activism, birth of west Belfast’s Gaeltacht, or put otherly, if the state’s agin us we’ll do it ourselves.

    Now, if you would like to put up some counter ideas, I’m all ears?

  • Toastedpuffin

    “How can you retaliate when the murder was less than 48 hours ago and no one charged? ”

    CSPRG, I can only assume you’re being deliberately obtuse, given that ALL the talk, here and across the media has been centred on Republican factions. I haven’t seen anyone suggesting this is incorrect.

    Are you perhaps suggesting the minister should have waited til an organisation claims responsibility before calling for no retaliation? Because I’m struggling to see any validity whatsoever in your taking him to task for what is a genuine and decent attempt at preventing any escallation. Again, I repeat, bizarre.

  • Comrade Stalin

    In the bad old days it would have been sadly commonplace to see retaliation within 24 hours.

    There is nothing that David Black’s killers would relish more than to see retaliations and a wholesale resumption of the conflict. It is exactly what they want.

    Joe, on the point about personal protection firearms – I would have thought that a prison officer would have reasonable grounds to be issued with a permit. But as you say in any case it would not have helped in this instance. Sadly, this incident has confirmed that prison officers are a target for these lunatics, and the state is going to have to help them cover the cost of increasing their personal security.

  • “that’s not at all what I meant. I was thinking, civil rights, community activism, birth of west Belfast’s Gaeltacht, or put otherly, if the state’s agin us we’ll do it ourselves.”

    Conveyance of meaning is a very difficult task, not least in a contested political landscape and in the age of Twitter, the age of the truncated message.

    I’m not familiar with the birth of the Gaeltacht but bundling together the three themes conveys to me an image of folks who were ‘agin the state’ ie in the NI context, they were (mainly) Irish nationalists of various hues. Unionists at the end of the 19th century wished to remain within the UK state so the moves by the Liberal administrations were presented as the ‘state’s agin us’.

    Those charged with governance of the state at any point in time seem to be more concerned about protecting institutions than in protecting individuals or minority groups. It was hardly surprising then that Dublin did a runner in the late 60s when faced with the prospect of a ‘socialist revolution’.

    Those who do it themselves – eg the founders of Corrymeela – are quite likely to be doing so for apolitical reasons, perhaps because they think it’s a good idea. What an irony then that the new Ray Davey Centre at Corrymeela was opened, I’m told, by Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness, in the presence of the local MP, Ian Paisley jnr. These three are in the ‘shared out future’ camp unlike the late Ray Davey and his idea of the ‘open village’.

    When Desmond Greaves, in the early 60s, promoted the use of rights issues as a means of advancing Irish unity he was coming from a base where rights issues had been raised in the late 50s in relation to the rights of Irish republican prisoners. In light of the killing of the prison officer, perhaps some things are just recycled.

  • “this incident has confirmed that prison officers are a target for these lunatics”

    CS, I’m very disappointed, not to say annoyed, that ‘lunatic’, a term associated with mental illness, continues to be misused and abused. Those who were sent to kill the prison officer and those who sent them used calculated extreme violence for political reasons.

  • Toastedpuffin

    “I’d accuse you of being a partitionist”

    It’s funny how words are invested with religious levels of significance for some. I’d heard this word used as a term of abuse by a GAA manager, from Armagh I think, following a scuffle at a match with a southern side.

    For a Unionist, this word carries little or no significance, yet it seem the neutrality of its meaning is lost within nationalism.

  • SK

    So by announcing that the ROI “may not have a future”, Mick was actually arguing that it does have one. Of course. It’s all so clear now.

    I suppose you can’t be accused of backing the wrong horse if you put money down on all of them.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Nevin,

    I think the people who did this are not normal and would probably qualify under at least one of the mental illnesses in the DSM-IV, don’t you ?

  • New Yorker

    If they are mentally ill and manifestly cause harm to others, why are they not removed from society?

  • Toastedpuffin

    CS:

    Given that a large proportion of the community do or will suffer from a mental disorder and break no laws whatsoever, in fact lead decent, productive lives, I don’t think describing murderers in those terms is all that helpful.

    I get the point that it’s difficult to describe the enormity of the brutality, but it’s the ideology that’s diseased, not the minds.

  • Fried Young Cannibal

    Their minds are diseased too. Look on any forum where supporters of dissident violence congregate and you will find that most if not all of them are addicted to violence. News of violent acts from conflicts in other countries will raise cheers with them, even if it is from the likes of the Taliban. Yep, some of them think themselves so radical left that they adore the Taliban and the bin Ladenists (the mind boggles). News of those two cops shot in Manchester had a few of them salivating all over themselves too. When news is posted of a kneecapping some of them even then can’t contain their delight, even before they hear who it was who was shot and what it was for. It’s just a pathological addiction to violence. They even have convinced themselves – and this is really how far gone into the blackest pit of stupidity and violence that they have went – that this current drugs war in Dublin is the beginning of the new republic. One of them even wrote a poem to celebrate the funeral display of that hood Alan Ryan, they all think the Johnny Adair of Dublin was a pious and uncorrupted republican, the modern day Sean South whose death at the hands of rival gangsters has him up there with James Connelly and will inspire the Irish people north and south to rise up. Clean fucking mad. And that’s why I say they are beyond talking to.

  • Tomas Gorman

    Toasted Puffin,

    Its more than a bit glib to accuse the ideology of Republicanism as diseased.

  • Fried Young Cannibal

    But does the ideology poison their minds or are their minds already poisoned and they just use the ideology as an excuse?

  • Tomas Gorman

    Well this is all very scientific and thorough. I’d love to stay and be involved but I can see where this is going already.
    Enjoy your Circus.

  • Toastedpuffin

    Tomas:

    I don’t think it is glib, I think it’s accurate. That’s not to say all republicans are impacted by it in the same way, but the fact remains there is something profoundly wrong with Irish Republicanism.

    FYC:

    I take your point, but to equate the behaviour you describe with those suffering from clinical depression or schizophrenia isn’t accurate or fair.

  • New Yorker

    When a group of people kill in pursuit of a goal that will never happen in their lifetime, such as Brits Out, are they not mentally ill?

  • Fried Young Cannibal

    TP,

    I don’t think they are all suffering from schizophrenia but they are mad in the way that Heath Ledger’s Joker from the Dark Knight was mad – they just want to see the world burn. I don’t know if that would qualify as medically recognised madness, but it’s hardly fully-fledged sanity.

  • Fried Young Cannibal

    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
    Albert Einstein

  • FYC,

    That definition was actually first said by Benjamin Franklin and two people misattributed were Mark Twain and Albert Einstein.
    Nevertheless, it’s an apt description of what all of the various incarnations of the IRA since the Treaty have been doing.
    Unfortunately for the rest of us, some of the murderous thugs of all hues are sociopaths and some are obviously psychopaths.

  • galloglaigh

    an apt description of what all of the various incarnations of the IRA since the Treaty have been doing

    All but one Joe!

  • “I think the people who did this are not normal”

    That’s as maybe, CS, but does that give you the right to link folks with mental illness to those who have made a choice to use extreme violence to advance a political agenda?

  • DC

    Comrade is probably spot on about mental illnesses, but not just the perpetrator of this attack, the dissident prisoners too.

    I reckon for what it’s worth that they largely suffer from severe depression and are quite easily irritated or irritable, so a frisk here or there is like the biggest deal on earth, a big crime to them.

    Even by looking at Colin Duffy for instance, you can tell that there is one unhappy man. Trouble is with resentment, it’s a bit like drinking poison and waiting for the other man to die – it eats you up in the end.

  • “it seems for politicians of the Peace Process era, that’s all there is…”

    Church leaders have also had their say; it included this:

    This evil murder is an attack on us all, so together we totally reject it and all that it represents.

    No it wasn’t; it was a murderous attack on David Black. Potential (and past) victims and their families are unlikely to sleep easier in their beds following the outpouring of such pious platitudes.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Nevin,

    Whatever.

  • Comrade,

    Re our previous exchange, Prison Officers are issued personal protection firearms and body armour. They have to hand both items in on the day they retire which seems very unfair to me. They will still remain targets for the murderous ones still free in our midst.

  • Jimmy Sands

    Comrade is probably spot on about mental illnesses,

    I don’t see any great mystery to this. It seems pretty clear to me that those that do this find it an exciting and glamorous alternative to an otherwise drab and pedestrian existence. I’ve always thought the various incoherent political rationalisations smacked of afterthoughts rather than motivation. If you want an excuse then they’ll cobble one together for you but essentially they do it because they enjoy it.