Slugger online debate: What’s Eating Ardoyne?

There’s lots of comment on last night’s rioting in Ardoyne (which is becoming less of a news event more part of the cultural calendar, in north Belfast at least).

There seems to be a remarkable degree of unanimity amongst mainstream politicians that further and renewed levels of engagement must begin now, and not wait for three months out from next year’s parade.

To that end, Slugger is hosting a panel debate on Google Plus next Tuesday lunchtime (starting at one, so you can hear most of Talkback) called, What’s eating Ardoyne?

It’s far enough ahead to have let local passions subside but not so far that the memory has softened too much. We’ll have a limited number of spaces for people to take an active part and for the rest of you we will be ‘broadcasting’ live via YouTube.

If you want to take part you will need:

– A Google Plus account. If you already have Gmail and/or YouTube this will be relatively easy affair.

– A microphone and webcam that works with your own computer.

– Some real knowledge of the problem, and a temperament that enables you to discourse civilly with people with whom you do not agree.

If you want some help or have a query, or want to share videos, pictures, or links to other online material that can feed into the event itself, post here, or on the Google Plus Event page here.

If you are a new entrant to G+ (as its known ‘on the inside’) you can find me at gplus.to/mickfealty. Put me in one of your circles and I’ll circle you back. Ping me any direct or specific queries about how G+ works in there.

I’ll be dipping into this thread trying to set an agenda for Tuesday’s discussion from the issues people raise here, as well as bringing a few ideas of my own to the table… Don’t stint.. (but DO remember that the usual rules apply).

There’s more on the Slugger Consults blog on Hangouts and realising their potential (which is huge)!

  • lamhdearg2

    I am sticking to what is hapening in Ardoyne. as per the thread.

  • lamhdearg2

    back on topic
    What’s Eating Ardoyne?,
    Like lurgan and derry it has a high % of dizzys, in comparison to Pira, so pira can not put the genie back in the bottle

  • lamhdearg2

    Goodnight Folks.

  • Hopping The Border

    A few things I noticed from Minister McCausland’s Blog entry:

    (1) “In other words he is a prominent Irish republican and a leading member of Sinn Fein”

    Before discussing anything concerning the band’s conduct Minister McCausland provides us with an overview of Mr. Magee’s political activities to date, finishing with the line quoted.

    Why did Minister McCausland feel the need to qualify the footage by saying the recorder is a member of the DUP’s partners in government?

    Why did Minister McCausland feel the feed to state his political affiliations?

    Does that change in some way what he recorded?

    Does it affect the validity and accuracy of the footage?

    Is there something wrong with being a “prominent Irish Republican” ?

    (2) “Secondly and separately the Young Conway Volunteers Flute Band from the Shankill Road area were in Donegall Street, near St Patrick’s Roman Catholic Church.”

    Deliberate vagueness at work. The band were right outside the front door, about as near as you can get without going inside.

    Why would Minister McCausland not admit this – it is patently obvious from the footage, no need for the obfuscation, unless of course as a matter of damage limitation.

    Even so, if they were only near the church and not on its doorstep, why qualify their presence with ” At the time, as the youtube footage shows, the doors of the chapel were closed and the gates in front of the building were closed.” ?

    Surely Minister McCausland, undoubtedly a far more religious man than I can appreciate that playing sectarian music outside a place of worship for those whom the sectarian songs are aimed at is at best distasteful and at worst incitement to hatred, irrespective of whether the church is open.

    Churches are generally located near their parishioners/followers and therefore in all likelihood some were bound to be about/within earshot or sight of the event.

    Does Minister McCausland believe that none of the parishioners were going to be present or that they should not have been?

    (3) Of the five “errors” in the Belfast Telegraph report he quotes (but does not link) two concern descriptions of and information on the band, both of which are entirely irrelevant to the central issue of the story.

    The first and fourth alleged inaccuracies may or may not be true, I was not present nor am I au fait with parade procedure.

    However, surely Minister McCausland is aware that great weight is placed on symbolism in NI and therefore, having a loyalist band stopped on the steps of a Catholic Church in the middle of a contentious parade playing at least one contentious song is unadvisable at the very least, particularly from a PR perspective, not to mention the likely damage to local community relations.

    (4) The fifth “error” which Minister McCausland alludes to is that the BelTel report gave the implication that “they only played ‘loyalist tunes’.”

    With respect to the Minister, he clearly (and might I suggest deliberately) misses the point. The band may have played some non-loyalist tunes, a point entirely irrelevant. The salient point is that standing in that particular spot the band chose to play a well known sectarian (some might even say racist) song in full knowledge of both their location and its impact. (and by some I mean the governing body for football in Europe)

    (5) Minster McCausland then turns to the song at issue itself stating “The band played for fifteen minutes and of all the tunes that were played during that time only one has been criticised, named the old Beach Boys tune, Sloop John B, which is altered by some Scottish loyalists to refer to Irish immigration into Scotland after the 19th century Famine.”

    Altered by some scottish loyalists it may be, but that version is also clearly audible in the subject video. Irrespective of its roots, that is the version that the band and its supporters serenaded the church with and that is what must be evaluated, not its original version.

    (6) “It can be argued that the band was naive or thoughless (sic)”

    Frankly, there isn’t really an argument there, that is what they were at that very least, the effect of this statement is that Minister McCausland believes the band’s conduct may or may not have been so.

    If it wasn’t at least “naive or thoughless (sic)” what was it?

    Acceptable?

    (7) The “our road” business

    The road belongs to no one and everyone (that is all tax payers). All parties are entitled to use it. With rights come responsibilities however, and a band placing themselves in a situation where they are going to cause offence to other users is not responsible and smacks of a lack of common decency.

    Finally, Minister McCausland signs off with a thought that this incident has been blown out of proportion through propaganda by his governmental partners as a calculated distraction.

    Where is the propaganda? The video is there for all to see.

    Not once does Minister McCausland condemn the actions of the band.

    Not once does he condemn the actions of the individual band members who attacked the recorder.

    Minister McCausland and more potently his boss, First Minster Robinson recently spoke of trying to attract Catholic (not Roman Catholic?) votes.

    That they may be, but they make it damn hard to vote for them.

  • carl marks

    andnowwhat
    My favourite part of that one was the protest organiser stating that it was cold tea in the balloons thrown at the primary school girls at holy cross and Mrs Tanney would NEED a chemistry Set to tell the difference urine and cold tea.
    The moral of the story is don’t go for tea in his house and for fecks sake don’t eat any sausages.

  • fordprefect

    Lamhdeargh, oh the humanity! You’ve obviously forgotten about the wee girls trying to go to school in Holy Cross, who had pornographic mags shoved in their faces along with balloons full of piss thrown at them and of course a pipe bomb, which injured one of “your” policemen and his dog.

  • carl marks

    Again just waiting for READER to back up his claim that i was being dishonest and making up quotes, No proof yet so before I go to bed I will say this.
    I will put £20 into the charity of his choice if he can prove his assertion (for transparency i will send the money to Mick) if he can’t prove it (which he CAN’T) I would expect a apology. Mick if it’s ok with you I would ask you to moderate this
    So come on reader let’s see if you have got the balls to back up your post, cause I’m fed up with people putting BS out there and running away when asked to back up what they say .

  • galloglaigh

    lamhdearg2

    If I thought I’d get away with it, I’d call you bad names. The first three posts of this current page, show a childish twit whose lost the argument. You’ve f#@ked off home with your ball. I’m sorry if this is seen as man playing, but it’s the truth. I’m trying to find the sense in all of these denials and whataboutery: Vis~a~vis the GAA etc.

    For God sake, what will it take for the Loyal Sluggerites to catch themselves on. Your precious besieged community and ‘culture’ stinks to high Heaven. Stop marching where you’re not wanted, and we’ll all have peaceful Summers. Stop disrespecting our human rights; our civil liberties; our heritage; our culture; our traditions; our perceived religion; and our intelligence, and we’ll all have peaceful Summers!

    And again, at similar times of the year, the Loyal Sluggerites are silent. Does that silence represent a deep down shameful feeling about their ‘culture’?

  • Mister_Joe

    galloglaigh,

    Calm down man. I have been arguing points with lamhderg over the past few days and earlier. I see no problem with his first 3 points on this page. Resist all temptation to play the man. Argue your points robustly, as Mick would say, but name calling does not advance an argument.

  • lamhdearg2

    gallo,
    there are other pages, where you hiding for page two, or did you have something else to do, I went to bed.
    ps I will be away with my ball today today aswell, so you can rant away.

  • Comrade Stalin

    lamhdearg,

    I think you should change your name to “Whataboutery”.

    I’m perfectly happy to discuss dissidents attacks and what a bunch of wankers they are (although to be honest I’m not convinced that they attack parades that often given how the police line most of the routes where there is a risk of trouble). But why does this subject only have to come up when we are discussing the bad behaviour of loyalists ?

  • “when we are discussing the bad behaviour of loyalists”

    Context, CS, the whataboutery charge is often used by those who act as apologists for t’other side; hypocrisy needs to be exposed. Many of these nefarious activities don’t take place in isolation as history has demonstrated down through the generations.

  • Comrade Stalin

    hypocrisy needs to be exposed.

    Rubbish Nevin, you’re trying to make excuses for bad behaviour. You are contextualizing violence and disorder.

  • andnowwhat

    think I can only recall one poster (a former blogger on this very site) who held any agenda for dissident republicans. I don’t think anyone could describe the rejection of dissidents by mainstream republicans as remotely ambiguous.

  • andnowwhat, SF did an about turn on its Athboy strategy so it’s hypocritical of the organisation to condemn other Republicans for continuing that strategy.

    CS, you seem unable to spot the nuances. I make no excuses for bad behaviour but, sadly, I’m not in a position to publish a detailed record – to do so would be completely irresponsible.

  • lamhdearg2

    Has anyone any idea why A.R.s site has not been updated since the 6th of july.

  • lamhdearg2

    why do the press/posters on slugger not put the Ardoyne dizzys violent attacks on those engaging in a legal parades , above the playing of tunes that irish nats dont like.
    not very nice behaviour , it seems is much worse than, attempts to murder.

  • Republic of Connaught

    Lamhdearg,

    I thought some of the scumbags causing trouble in Ardoyne were arrested and will be duly processed by the law?

    It seems to simply condemn the scumbags playing their ditty outside the Catholic church is too much for some.

  • The Lodger

    “why do the press/posters on slugger not put the Ardoyne dizzys violent attacks on those engaging in a legal parades , above the playing of tunes that irish nats dont like.
    not very nice behaviour , it seems is much worse than, attempts to murder.”

    lamhdearg2,

    There always has to be some sort of quid quo pro you see. Some sort of balance. The fact that republicans and the press could only find one very minor incident to focus on is testament to what a successful ans peaceful day the 12th this year was.

    The dissidents thought they had been handed a gift by the parades commission at Ardoyne this year, but the OO totally outwitted them. If those idiots had not stopped outside that empty chapel to play loyalist songs then republican mope merchants would have been totally stumped.

  • lamhdearg2

    “There always has to be some sort of quid quo pro you see”
    indeed there seems of be, like the fact that of the 4 arrests ROC mentions above , 2 where loyalists, even though Irish nats carried out 99% of the trouble.

    But the press (and irish nats on slugger) are putting the idiots actions above attempt to murder, it is pure green tinted glasses in action.

  • The Lodger

    “But the press (and irish nats on slugger) are putting the idiots actions above attempt to murder, it is pure green tinted glasses in action.”

    lamhdearg2,

    There is no excuse for the press, but obviously it suits republicans very well to have something to divert attention from the sectarian violence of their dissident colleagues.

  • Republic of Connaught

    Lamhdearg,

    I don’t care who the troublemakers were – Loyalist or Republican – arrest all the scumbags. These type of people are only waiting for a chance for social mayhem. Imagine the joy in the bad areas of Limerick or Dublin if the had some ’cause’ to leech onto to justify their neanderthal behaviour.

    Belfast gives its neanderthals an excuse to do what they love to do – all supposedly in the name of ‘Loyalism’ or ‘Republicanism’.

  • lamhdearg2

    ROC
    the arrest of All those breaking the law, is not something a person could disagree with, however selective arrests, cause concern.

  • Submariner

    lamhdearg2 (profile) 15 July 2012 at 10:26 pm
    ROC
    the arrest of All those breaking the law, is not something a person could disagree with, however selective arrests, cause concern.

    What do you mean by selective arrests?

  • lamhdearg2

    sub, “Of or characterized by selection; discriminating”.

  • anne warren

    The Lodger 9.55 wrote “the OO totally outwitted them (the Parades Commission)”.

    Did they ? Did they really?

    The Orange marchers left the Field early, were bussed to the Crumlin Road and walked the contentious part of the road before the 4pm deadline.
    Then they got back on the bus and went back to the Field.
    “ In fact the banners were then taken back to the demonstration field to enable the three lodges to take part in the homeward parade from the field. http://theministerspen.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/garc-and-ardoyne-riots-4.html?m=1

    Their homeward parade did not pass the Ardoyne flashpoint.

    The OO showed what its main interest was, at the cost missing part of its own celebrations.
    They seemed delighted they had achieved a “token march”
    The ‘traditional route’ was not completed.
    Can the OO still argue that completing it is all important?
    What’s next year’s argument?

  • aquifer

    Arresting people consistently or uniformly is easier said than done.

    All we can say is that lawbreakers are liable to be arrested, police resources permitting.

    In the past the RUC riot squad did not arrest very many people at all, perhaps due to an aversion to paperwork.

    Lately though rioters have been jailed.

    Progress of a sort.

  • carl marks

    I can’t find a nationalist poster supporting or defending the Ardoyne rioters, on the other hand (with one or two honourable exceptions) the unionist posters seem unable to even contemplate condemning the bigots who had the little hate fest outside St Pats,
    According to Nelson they were just a bit silly and meant no harm the real problem is the evil press spinning this to blacken the decent folk involved.
    Peter says that Catholic votes are needed to maintain the union, asking turkeys to vote for Christmas is the phrase that comes to mind.
    Not a lot has Changed, I remember a Journalist (can’t recall who perhaps someone out there can come up with a name) telling the story that while covering a riot in the Shankill a very angry women came up to him/her and declared “ your filming something that isn’t happening” sound familiar.

  • carl marks

    lamhdearg2
    the arrest of All those breaking the law, is not something a person could disagree with, however selective arrests, cause concern.

    Indeed I await news that the idiots who were videoed carrying out the assault outside St Pats being arrested, after all at least one of them will be easy to find, we know what band he is in and we have seen his picture.
    Got a feeling that holding my breath would be a bad idea, by the way before anybody accuses me of ignoring the Ardoyne rioters I WANT THEM ARRESTED AS WELL.

  • babyface finlayson

    Carl marks
    I agree with you that they all need arresting, the rioters and those who attacked the guy with the camera. Not sure if anything could be made to stick regarding the bandsmen, possibly incitement to hatred or something like that .
    Can I point out though that you appear to require different standards from different posters on this.
    On the one hand you highlight that Nationalist posters do not defend the rioting, but on the other you highlight that Unionist posters fail to condemn the band. There is a subtle difference there.

  • carl marks

    babyface finlayson

    Perhaps this will help and maybe stop the fools, who hair split,
    I and as far as i can see every other nationalist blogger has roundly condemned the Ardoyne rioters and rightly so. Most unionist bloggers have defended the assholes at St Pats also I and other nationalists have condemned both events. Unionists by large have defended the band, if there are double standards in this case it’s not coming from nationalists on this site. I apologise for any seeming differences in standards and let me assure if you read my posts during my time on slugger you will see that subtlety is not my strong point.

  • babyface finlayson

    Carl marks
    I resent (slightly) the implication that I am a fool. I merely pointed out your apparent double standards, which you have now clarified.
    It is not my impression that most Unionist bloggers, or posters, have ‘defended the assholes’ . Unless you call whataboutery defending.

  • Reader

    carl marks: Again just waiting for READER to back up his claim that i was being dishonest and making up quotes, No proof yet so before I go to bed I will say this.

    carl marks: I don’t think we will be getting answers to any of these questions unless they of the usual hair splitting type, you know what the sort of thing I mean, “just because he was wearing a collarette during a orange parade doesn’t mean he was a Orangeman, or it was the bandsmen’s 15 minute break and what they do in their spare time is their own business and nothing to do with the lodge that hired them.
    There’s the quotes. Personally, I still think you may have just been too lazy to search the thread for the actual hair-splitting that you were complaining about (the first option I suggested, btw). But you also have the options to find the originals; or to admit that you preferred your own snippets of loyalist rhetoric to anything you might actually find here.

  • Reader

    babyface finlayson: Unless you call whataboutery defending.
    Sheesh, I hope not, or there are far more people defending the IRA than I ever imagined. I just took it as a bit of context for the troubles…
    Whoops – and I just whatabouted, too.

  • Reader

    andnowwhat: How do we categorise the anti Polish crap we’ve had in recent 11th nights. Is that just racism, sectarianism (mostly keffliks) or are they being cosmopolitian and doing a mixture of both?
    They found an immigrant who aligned with a Nationalist party, so mostly racism (if that). If a recent settler identifies with Unionism, we will see how classy the Chucks can be.

  • babyface finlayson

    Reader
    Actually having had a look on the other thread by Chris D I do see some attempts at defending this nastiness by this particular band.
    It does look like one or two people posting furiously and frequently rather than ‘most Unionists’ as carl marks sees it.
    Disappointing though, that anyone, even one or two could seek to defend it.
    I

  • andnowwhat

    Reader “They found an immigrant who aligned with a Nationalist party, so mostly racism (if that). If a recent settler identifies with Unionism, we will see how classy the Chucks can be.”

    So, it was ok since the Polish girl was standing for Sinn Fein?

    I think SF’s (including the military bit) have more than shown themselves to not be prejudiced on such things. Whist Adams was assisting the anti apartheid movement to attack a South African oil refinery, unionists were supporting the regime and doing weapons deals with them.

  • lamhdearg2

    and while unionists where working along with just about everyone else, the ira where working with the nazi party, and then their pals in farc,eta, ect ect ect, all the good guys.

  • lamhdearg2

    polish girl, sdlp.

  • The Lodger

    “The OO showed what its main interest was, at the cost missing part of its own celebrations.
    They seemed delighted they had achieved a “token march”
    The ‘traditional route’ was not completed.
    Can the OO still argue that completing it is all important?
    What’s next year’s argument?”

    Anne,

    The intention of the Parades Commission and the republican protestors was to back the OO into a situation where it would be impossible for them to complete their march through that part of the Crumlin Road. The OO outwitted them both and achieved the march both legally and on time. Therefore they achieved their aim and both the PC and the GARC mob failed.

    Next years argument will be simply that the PC need to come up with a more reasonable time scale because changing the time did not prevent either the march or the obligatory republican violence.

  • carl marks

    Reader
    .
    Look at the post again they were not quotes. But examples of the sort of hair splitting crap that we hear all the time from unionists and loyalists to justify this sort of thing, but i was wrong none of these were claimed as the reason for the incident, instead they fell back on that old favourite “the media made it up”
    Until the various groups here (and I’m not confining this statement to the PUL community) start to face down the bullyboys in their own community and stop trying to cover up for them with pathetic excuses then sorting this whole thing out will take a awful long time.
    The stupidity at St Pats was bad enough and you can be sure it was played worldwide, now when our young earther British Israelite minister (such a easy target) then tries to claim it was all the fault of the press and tries to excuse it, well for republicans fighting the propaganda war it becomes the gift that just keeps giving. Anybody wanting to know why nationalists don’t want the OO anywhere near them will get their answer when they see the footage and are shown the Ministers statement,

  • carl marks

    lamhdearg2 (profile)
    16 July 2012 at 5:26 pm

    and while unionists where working along with just about everyone else,

    care to enlighten us as to “just about everyone else” would be then.

  • Reader

    andnowwhat: So, it was ok since the Polish girl was standing for Sinn Fein?
    SDLP, and not OK, of course. Just not sectarian, since all of the SDLP candidates were Catholic, so far as I know. And possibly – or possibly not – racist, depending on what today’s definition of ‘race’ is. You asked for an outline of the motive. I supplied my best guess, which was at least more coherent than spraying buzzwords around.

  • Reader

    carl marks: Look at the post again they were not quotes. But examples of the sort of hair splitting crap that we hear all the time from unionists and loyalists to justify this sort of thing, but i was wrong none of these were claimed as the reason for the incident, instead they fell back on that old favourite “the media made it up”
    I was the one who told *you* these were not real quotes. And, 100 posts into the topic, with several other threads on the boil, wouldn’t it have been more meaningful for you to give a *real* example of “hair splitting crap”, rather than just making stuff up?
    Still, you know what republicans always say: […put some made up stuff here…]

  • Reader

    carl marks: The stupidity at St Pats was bad enough and you can be sure it was played worldwide, now when our young earther British Israelite minister (such a easy target) then tries to claim it was all the fault of the press and tries to excuse it, well for republicans fighting the propaganda war it becomes the gift that just keeps giving.
    The stupidity at St Pat’s was indeed bad, and the band should be banned from participation in future parades for a while, while people involved in the assault should be prosecuted where evidence of an offence exists.
    However, it’s a fantasy to think the world will pay a blind bit of notice. Here’s what I found on CNN:
    http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewThis&etMailToID=584954507
    Much more photogenic, don’t you think? Impressive the way the protestors are displaying the flags the wrong way round.

  • carl marks

    Reader
    I was the one who told *you* these were not real quotes.
    what give it away to you the lack of Quotation marks would have been a clue. But of course instead of facing up to the real issue you play away at semantics.
    Deny to me that unionists will blame anybody and anything for whatever they do rather than admitting they were wrong. You could do this very simply just point out to me when any unionist politician condemned Harryville, Holy Cross, or any of the instances of violence that came out of Dumcree. So deal with the issue instead of trying to divert things. As in an earlier post I referred to Nelson’s sad statement in which he seemed surprised that there was any reason for offence to be taken (after all it was a empty church so that’s ok then) they had no choice but to stop there even through the road was clear in front of them, only one sectarian song sung (how many does it take to offend), and of course the media they spun it the wrong way.
    Hey you know your right I should not have bothered giving general examples of how its done the actual excuses are much better than anything i could have thought of.

  • carl marks

    Reader
    “Much more photogenic, don’t you think? Impressive the way the protestors are displaying the flags the wrong way round.”

    well nice to see we agree on something. but is parity of asshole what we are after.
    by the way check out the little ” symbol at the begining and end of your statement above they indicate a quote. no dont thank me glad to help.

  • The Lodger

    “they had no choice but to stop there even through the road was clear in front of them”

    Carl Marks,

    They were held up there because the wreath laying ceremony was taking place at the City hall.

  • carl marks

    The Lodger
    “They were held up there because the wreath laying ceremony was taking place at the City hall.”

    so dispite the road being clear in front of them they had to stop in front of a catholic church walk in circles and play secterian tunes,
    give us a break.

  • The Lodger

    “so dispite the road being clear in front of them they had to stop in front of a catholic church walk in circles and play secterian tunes,
    give us a break.”

    Carl Marks,

    I can’t see how being held up on the road because of the wreath laying ceremony at City hall can somehow be interpreted as the road being clear in front of them.

  • Reader

    carl marks: what give it away to you the lack of Quotation marks would have been a clue.
    You opened the quotation marks, but didn’t close them. Are you claiming that’s an idiosyncratic bit of personal notation that means you’re just spoofing; or will you admit that you just forgot to close the quote?

  • PeterBrown

    Carl

    As per the other thread there is no evidence that the raod was clear as it appears to be obscured in both videos but the van / minibus of the preceding losge can be some in soem wider shots implying that in fact it was not clear.

    You have been given a lily by this band – do not gild it…

  • tacapall

    Peter regardless if the road was clear or not, that did not stop commonsense prevailing either by the band, the marshalls or the two Unionist politicians who were present to intervene and tell the band to stand still and not act like circus monkeys playing racist music cheered on by neanderthals outside of all places a Catholic church. Lets get some honesty and say it like it was, they didn’t do that because they didn’t think it was wrong, its normal behaviour to them.

  • PeterBrown

    I’m not disputing that and never have I’m just saying let’s be honest about the situation not hyperbolic. I have read this mornings Newsletter article but as we say in my business I have heard nothing that could be described as a defence justifying or excusing what happened but there is much that can be said by way of mitigation or putting it in context.

  • tacapall

    Peter I was born and reared off those sides streets of Carlisle Circus, I have watched loads of Orange Order parades as a child and I know St Patricks Church is never closed during the day,,only when Orange order parades pass by do they shut the doors keeping everyone inside until they pass as there has been loads of incidents over the years of parishioners coming out being intimidated or insulted or even assaulted by passing Orangemen and their supporters.

    This latest incident is another in an ever growing list of reasons why local residents should be consulted before permission is given for large groups of people to disrupt and obstruct the civil and religious liberties and normal everyday business lives of the local residents of the areas they parade through. .

  • dwatch

    Question which should be asked to Nelson McCausland MLA & Nigel Dodds MP, as both Orangemen & DUP politicians who take part in this parade.

    What is the Belfast districts LOL’s Code of Conduct during the OO parade on 12 July Belfast?

    Because the recent incident outside St Pats Catholic Chapel does not hold up to the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland’s Code of conduct for the Drumcree parade:
    See here:

    Code of Conduct

    Drumcree Church Parade

    Bands are only allowed to play Hymn tunes. Many of these tunes are common to both communities.

    Bands refrain from playing whilst passing St. John’s Chapel on the outward journey to Drumcree Parish Church.

    http://www.grandorangelodge.co.uk/parades/annual_drumcree_parade.html

  • PeterBrown

    DWatch

    Drumcree is a Sunday church parade and will have a different code of conduct than a Twelfth Parade which is never held on a Sunday

  • dwatch

    PeterBrown, how come the OO keep informing us the 12th July is a parade to Barnets Park were they also hold a religious service. I remember in the 1970’s “Billy Boy” bands were warned by Grand LOL to clean up their acts or they would not be employed at future parades. All bands were requested to cease to play any music when passing Catholic places of worship.

  • dwatch

    If I also remember correctly after some of these “Billy Boy” bands cleaned up their acts during the 70’s & 80’s that the Arts Council (supported by the direct rule government at the time) provided monetary grants to purchase uniforms and musical instruments.

  • Submariner

    PeterBrown (profile) 17 July 2012 at 5:08 pm
    DWatch

    Drumcree is a Sunday church parade and will have a different code of conduct than a Twelfth Parade which is never held on a Sunday

    The Parades commission quite clearly states that only hymns are to be played outside places of worship. That was quite clearly broken by the terrorist supporting band outside St Patricks Church on the twelfth

  • PeterBrown

    All true and my position on that is well known – my own lodge’s lambegs did not play during our own feeder parade past the chapel in Portglenone last week but it is a voluntary code and not legally enforceable as has been demonstrated in numerous non contentious parades by both sides

  • lamhdearg2

    how did the day go, ( save me reading 100+ comments)

  • Submariner

    @ Peter Brown

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    Can the Parades Commission ban parades?
    How can one know what parades are contentious?
    Is the Parades Commission a government body?
    Is the parades legislation not just a protestors’ charter- whoever threatens the most violence or disruption wins?
    What are the rules governing sectarian songs and paramilitary displays?
    The Parades Commission’s Code of Conduct defines the obligations on parade organisers covering every aspect of the conduct of parades, including music, flags and regalia. It is the responsibility of the organiser to ensure that all those taking part in the parade comply with the Code of Conduct. Failure to do so can lead to prosecution and can also be taken into account by the Commission in subsequent decisions.

    What happens if those taking part in a parade do not comply with route restrictions/conduct conditions?
    A Parades Commission determination is a legally binding document and defines the legality of a parade. Any action which breaks the law is a matter for the PSNI. However the Parades Commission may take account of breaches of its determinations when considering later parades involving those responsible for such breaches.

    What happens when someone disagrees with a Parades Commission ruling?
    What is the structure of the Parades Commission?
    Why does the Parades Commission allow parades in areas where they are not wanted?
    © Copyright Parades Commission 2012

  • PeterBrown

    Submariner

    I haven’t checked specifcally (and would reiterate my view that it was wrong even if it not criminal) but my professional recollection / belief is that the Guidelines only carry the force of law when they are included in a determination on a contentious parade and if the parade is non contentious are a voluntary code but again I am subject to correction on this….

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    If these three put another story on their house they would still have difficulty seeing any Loyal Order parade never mind hear any single drum beat as it passed the shared area of the Crumlin road shops.

    But lets use the “Big Lie” theory. Tell a “big lie” and keep telling it that the Loyal Order parades pass through the republican part of Ardoyne. If you google the addresses you will see how far these republicans went to get offended.

    Not only that, if I was a parent in the republican part of Ardoyne I would be concerned what was being taught and going on in republican Ardoyne youth clubs. As one of the accused is a youth club worker, Colleen Lagan. She also faced charges of “threatening behaviour arising out of incidents at the Ardoyne shopfronts on 12 July”

    In light of all this its time the parades commission stopped punishing the peaceful Loyal Orders passing the shared Crumlin road shops, and put more restrictions those that protest and have created the violence and arrests.

    “Ardoyne residents’ campaigner Martin Meehan has appeared in court on charges connected with trouble after a loyalist feeder parade in the area at the weekend.

    The 44-year-old, from Holmdene Gardens, was charged with disorderly behaviour and resisting police after an Apprentice Boys march had passed through the area on Saturday morning.

    A PSNI officer told Belfast Magistrates’ Court on Monday that Meehan had sworn loudly at police, but his lawyer said that the accused had later apologised for his behaviour.

    Meehan was granted bail as were two other people charged in relation to what the PSNI said was “limited disorder” on Saturday after residents had staged protests.

    Sean McAllister, 32 and from Prospect Park, and 24-year-old youth club worker Colleen Lagan, from Butler Walk, were charged with disorderly behaviour, assaulting police and obstructing officers.

    Lagan also faced a charge of threatening behaviour arising out of incidents at the Ardoyne shopfronts on 12 July when there was serious rioting in the area after an Orange Order march.

    Supporters applauded as Meehan and McAllister were led from court”.
    http://www.u.tv/News/Bail-for-Ardoyne-residents-campaigner/dab4aac4-d2f5-4644-9ad0-cbca391f271d

  • carl marks

    ArdoyneUnionist
    got all that from the news,
    What is your point.