Who’s marching, where and when? And when is a parade a feeder parade?

Balmoral Review posterIn the Belfast Telegraph, Brian Rowan picks up on Jackie McDonald’s comments about the Balmoral Review on May 19. Answering a question from a delegate in the Future of Loyalism panel at the Political Studies Association conference in Belfast, the senior UDA leader had referred to loyalist groups taking part in the parade and questioned whether Short Strand residents would feel threatened as the parade passed by.

Jackie McDonald has confirmed that he will be marching after all, “as a loyalist, along with many friends of mine”. He explained:

I support the parade … This is not in any way meant to be offensive or triumphalist.

Brian Rowan went on:

Asked how the UDA would be “suited and booted”, McDonald responded: “The days of paramilitary uniforms are gone. Whichever side of the community is having its celebration, it should take into consideration the feelings and the concerns of the other community.’’

“The organisers have made strenuous efforts to ensure that this is a peaceful day,” he said.

Jim McVeigh, Sinn Fein’s leader on Belfast City Council, said that feeder parades were his “primary concern”.

We are not opposed to the rally in Ormeau Park. But we have great concerns about contentious feeder parades and the impact on host communities. So far the organisers have refused to meet us, but we want to meet with them to resolve issues.

Though as Quincey Dougan explained in a post yesterday, a meeting with Short Strand residents has been arranged and the Unionist Centenary Committee are clear that there are no feeder parades – eliminating Jim McVeigh’s “primary concern” unless he is confusing the three main parades marching to Ormeau Park with feeder parades, which I understand would traditionally be individual (or groups) of lodges marching a short distance from their Orange Hall to join a main parade.

The Balmoral Review programme (and website) refer to parades leaving Alexandra Park Avenue, Sandy Row, Shankill Road and Clifton Street and arrive in Ormeau Park around noon.

The Parades Commission website currently lists four parades for Belfast on 19 May 2012, and it’s clear that not all parades have yet been listed on the site – for example Shankill Road and Clifton Street.

  • LOL No 633 Old Boyne Island Heroes (with 1 band and 170 participants) marching from Malvern Street at 09:30, via Hopewell Avenue, to Carlisle Circus by 09:45 and returning at 16:00.
  • Ballynafeigh Apprentice Boys Flute Band (with 1 band and 35 participants) are setting off from Blackwood Street at 08:30 to make the 15 minute march via Deramore Avenue-Ormeau Road-Somerset Street-Parkmore Street to reach the Ormeau Road.
  • LOL No 10 Ballynafeigh (with 10 bands) are starting from the Ormeau Road at 08:30 and marching via Stranmillis Embankment-Collingwood Avenue-Agincourt Avenue-Rugby Road-College Park-Botanic Avenue-Shaftesbury Square-Donegal Road to arrive at Sandy Row just before 10am to meet up with … (They’re taking a much shorter route home in the evening!)
  • Sandy Row District LOL No 5 (with 4 bands and 500 participants) are marching from Sandy Row at 10:00 via Hope Street-Great Victoria Street-College Square East-Wellington Place-Donegall Square North-Donegaall Place-Royal Avenue to Donegaall Street. And there their outward parade ends, a mile or two short from Ormeau Park! (They list their return journey from Ormeau Park via Stranmillis Enbankment and University Road back to Sandy Row.)

Aren’t some of those feeder parades? Maybe Jim McVeigh has a point?

(All spellings of road names copied from Parades Commission website!)

, ,

  • Who coined the term ‘feeder parade’? Are ‘demonstration’ and ‘parade’ interchangeable? It’s hardly the first time that folks are confused by a common language!

  • lamhdearg2

    This will not do at all no parade past the ardoyne shops, i won’t get to don my jack boots, required for stamping all over the oppressed irish, practice my golf ball dodging, and get a dose of spittle in the face. ah well, tiocfaidh ar la.

  • Submariner

    LOL No 633 Old Boyne Island Heroes. Nice to see the terrorist UVF well represented.

  • ranger1640

    Maybe to save all this confusion they should have started and finished at Legoneil Orange Hall.

    Sub, is that the same for the provos every time the Twinbrook Larks children’s gaa team have a throw in???

    A new west Belfast GAA club has defended its decision to adopt symbols linked with republican hunger striker, Bobby Sands, on its club badge.

    Cumann na Fuiseoige, which is based in the Twinbrook area, said it chose the symbols as it was “no hard task to look to Bobby Sands, who came from this area, as a role model for our children”.

    The club’s badge, left, incorporates a lark – a symbol associated with the IRA hunger striker, who died in 1981 – a H, to represent the H-Blocks, and barbed wire.

    The new club was officially launched at the weekend.

    The GAA rule book states in rule eight and nine that the association shall be non-party political and non-sectarian.

    The Ulster Council of the GAA last night (Tuesday) declined to comment.

    http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2004/oct27_GAA_Sands.php

    http://www.bebo.com/c/photos/view?MemberId=14978284&PhotoAlbumId=3402177046#photoId=3402261316

  • Submariner

    Whatabout. Didnt take you long did it.

  • ranger1640

    No, but there you go.

  • lamhdearg2

    A tip to stop whatabout, if you have something juicy on a subject, that just cant wait on a relative thread, simply put a related word into “search the archives”,and link it into an older related thread, i find most times it/i get ignored, but it gets it out of yee/me.

  • ranger1640

    Lamhbearg2 like this? http://sluggerotoole.com/2004/10/27/gaa_controversy/

    Not much comment on my proposal to stop any confusion???

    Maybe to save all this confusion they should have started and finished at Legoneil Orange Hall.

    Plenty of parking in Ballysillan Playing fields and a good assembly and dispersal point.

  • cynic2

    “When is a feeder parade not a feeder parade”!

    How many angels can dance on a pinhead?

  • lamhdearg2

    ligoniel, Or finished at ballysillan playing fields, but in keeping with Chris and his Parading & the Lessons for Conciliatory Strategies, better not, better they keep the moral high ground, (insert smiley, maybe not)

  • ranger1640

    lamhdearg2, in what shrinks couch does being in permanent victim mode give you the moral high ground?

  • lamhdearg2

    crossed wires, better the O.O. keep the moral high ground, (by not bringing the parade to ballysillan),
    ps, my sarcasm crosses over poorly via the internet

  • Fr.Tom

    the plethora of parades threads aka
    “the ulsterization of agony”

    when will the constant handbagging giveway to
    “will yous two just get a room FFS!” and be done with it ..

    you know who you are !

  • USA

    Well that pretty much disrupts all the central areas of Belfast on Saturday May 19th. Business owners and shoppers will be well pleased.
    Would it not occur to these people to parade around the park or a sports stadium instead of disrupting everyone else?
    Or maybe being allowed to disrupt everyone else fills them with a sense of impotence.

  • lamhdearg2

    Is it only loyalist/O.O. parades that disrupt?, or do all parades stpats/lord mayor/gay/halloween ect ect ect.

    seems to me, “disruption” is a fall back complaint, when those parading,

  • lamhdearg2

    seems to me, “disruption” is a fall back complaint, when those parading have addressed the route complaint, see derry for more evidence of this.

  • ranger1640

    Disruption is that based on fact or an assumption USA??? The only people who seem to get impotence about parades are republicans.

    The 12th of July is a public holiday, yet the shops in Belfast City centre are open. So on the biggest parade day of the year business in Belfast are open as usual and the 19th will be no diffident. That is of course unless you know better USA???

    The only people who get impotence are republicans/nationalists because and to quote your dear leader head of your politburo one Gerry Adams “they haven’t gone away you know”!!!

  • tacapall

    “The only people who get impotence are republicans/nationalists because and to quote your dear leader head of your politburo one Gerry Adams “they haven’t gone away you know”

    Ranger Wee Jeffrey seems to know more than you do, maybe your not keeping track of things.

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/dups-jeffrey-donaldson-i-accept-the-ira-has-stood-down-16143522.html

    DUP’s Jeffrey Donaldson: “I accept the IRA has stood down”

    “A senior unionist has said he accepts that the IRA and its ‘army council’ are no longer active”

  • ranger1640

    Tacapall did you read my post??? Obviously the context of it is lost on you??? Try reading it again in conjunction with USA’s, as it was a reply to his post.

    Then come back and let us all know what the contest for “your dear leader head of your politburo one Gerry Adams “they haven’t gone away you know” quote???

    By the way the provos stood because the RUC, Special Branch, MI5 and the Army had them in their sights. I think it was priest Denis Faul who said in the 80’s when he was head at St Patrick’s Academy for Boys at Dungannon, Co Tyrone.

    He told the boy’s there not to join the IRA. Because (I paraphrase as I can’t find a link) the man who swears you in, the man beside you and the man who sends you out to murder and bomb is probably an agent/informer.

  • tacapall

    Ranger

    “He told the boy’s there not to join the IRA. Because (I paraphrase as I can’t find a link) the man who swears you in, the man beside you and the man who sends you out to murder and bomb is probably an agent/informer.”

    There you go Ranger even you are now admitting that the majority of murders and bombings carried out by the various paramilitaries UDA/UVF/IRA/INLA were carried out with the full knowledge and purpose of the RUC and British security forces and theres plenty of evidence to prove your point. Maybe now before you quote how many killings were carried out by who you could now maybe factor in that fact, that murders and bombings carried out by agents of the state be rightly blamed at the feet of those who armed controlled and allowed those agents a free hand to murder innocent people then callously pointed the finger of blame elsewhere.

  • galloglaigh

    First of all, recently I posted a comment similar in context to that of lamhdearg2 (14 April 2012 at 4:14 pm). My comment was removed, and a yellow card handed out.

    Secondly Ranger1640 claims that those who recruited for the PIRA were ‘probably an agent/informer’. Again, can I ask where this fits in to the blame game. Were the 60% of republican murders actually republican murders, or should they be attributed to the British government’s policy of proxy counter-insurgency?

  • ranger1640

    Girls, did the Sinn Fein/IRA not run agents who set up members of the RUC or Army? Go out and have a cool Smithwicks and calm down.

    http://sluggerotoole.com/2011/12/21/ingram-claim-leaked-half-ira-leadership-were-working-for-the-british/

    With all those British agents in the shinners/IRA, it blows all the shinner/IRA speeches out of the water (sorry for the pun) that were given last week celebrating their alleged brave volunteers. It would appear that the members of Sinn Fein/IRA have joined the British camp ASAP. They obviously feared the RUC, Special Branch, MI5 and the SAS more than there own enforces in Sinn Fein/IRA!!!

    So all those Sinn Fein/IRA commemorations were in fact a celebration of British counter insurgency agents and how they brought the shinner/IRA campaign to an end with the shinners accepting British rule and taking seats in a British administration and the IRA disarming and disbanding their so called army council. Classic you couldn’t make it up, I wonder what wee Marty McGuinness thinks of all this as he sups his tea and munches on this lime tart up in Stormont.

    It seems most of the IRA/Sinn Fein were working to undermine the cause/movement for a united Ireland. As they were spineless agents working for the British establishment, again classic.

    Here is my unequivocal personal view in a dirty terrorist counter insurgency or war as you call it.

    The state has my full permission to run agents/informers to remove the terrorists and their leaders/godfathers form circulation be that prison or Loughgall style. Is that concise enough for you… And every right thinking person should think the same.

    The more I listen to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSkFJcsmx-4&feature=related the Future’s Bright the Future, well you know the rest.

    Now with all that said will it help republican/nationalist impotence.

  • tacapall

    Ranger.

    “With all those British agents in the shinners/IRA, it blows all the shinner/IRA speeches out of the water (sorry for the pun) that were given last week celebrating their alleged brave volunteers. It would appear that the members of Sinn Fein/IRA have joined the British camp ASAP. They obviously feared the RUC, Special Branch, MI5 and the SAS more than there own enforces in Sinn Fein/IRA!!!

    So all those Sinn Fein/IRA commemorations were in fact a celebration of British counter insurgency agents and how they brought the shinner/IRA campaign to an end with the shinners accepting British rule and taking seats in a British administration and the IRA disarming and disbanding their so called army council. Classic you couldn’t make it up, I wonder what wee Marty McGuinness thinks of all this as he sups his tea and munches on this lime tart up in Stormont.”

    Ranger tell us something we dont know, obviously you’re new to all this and find it all rather comforting and righteous that your police force armed, controlled and allowed agent provocateurs to murder not only innocent civilians, but only they know how many of their own colleagues and members of the British Army.

    Its sums up Loyalism/Unionism when you can publicly condone and give your approval for innocent people to be murdered to supposedly stop innocent people being murdered then scream to the high heavens about Sinn Fein/IRA being in government.

    I cant figure out whether your ignorant or just a hypocrite either way it proves once again that this state is still even now a sewer filled with lowlifes and parasites who feed off the suffering and grief of innocent victims and use them as pawns in some sort of PR war.

    Maybe Unionists should look up this law when giving their permission for state run agents to murder and bomb innocent people.

    The Criminal Attempts and Conspiracy (Northern Ireland) Order 1983 – The offence of conspiracy

  • lamhdearg2

    Talking of informers, tell tale tit, i will assume your more of a steakknife that a “touts will be shot” sort of nat.

  • tacapall

    You cant even assume correctly either Lamhdearg2, whats that term “Dont judge a book by its cover” There are people who live here who unlike the skip rats like yourself dont support violence of any kind, be that from those who are supposed to uphold the law or those who wish to use it for political change. I certainly know what catagory you are in.

  • lamhdearg2

    “I certainly know what catagory you are in.”, really.
    Do you also know that my 12:28 was not directed at you?.
    D
    ont support violence of ANY kind, com,on into the skip, theres plenty of room.

  • ranger1640

    Ranger1640 yawns as he reads rant above as he sups on his cup of tea and eats his Orange Crunch.

    I will restate my unequivocal personal view in a dirty terrorist counter insurgency or war as you call it.

    The state has my full permission to run agents/informers to remove the terrorists and their leaders/godfathers form circulation be that prison or Loughgall style. Is that concise enough for you… And every right thinking person should think the same.

    I just can’t add to that.

  • Fr.Tom

    Rooms available 20% off if you logon with your slugger account.
    http://www.getaroom.com offer lasts till 6pm daily !

  • tacapall

    But of course Ranger thats up to you but the genuine people who live among you and around you who see the past 40 years for what they really were know that justice and all the dirty washing will someday be aired and served in public and show the world what you really are and were, hypocrites who care nothing for all those innocent lives that were lost, people with the integrity of a scorpion and the morals of a crocodile .

  • lamhdearg2

    Fr.tom, you dont have to read all the threads, i ignore the ones i have no interest in.
    tacapall, anything to say to me?.

  • Reader

    tacapall; there were always going to be innocent lives lost. Your issue is with “who”, Ranger1640 is looking at “how many”. For a government, the second question is the better one, and that is the one they and the intelligence agencies answered.
    They could have chosen *not* to infiltrate the paramilitary groups – then different people would have died, and more people would have died.

  • tacapall

    lamhdearg – Ta bron orm.

    Reader and how do you work out giving guns to Loyalist terrorists to murder innocent people in a bookmakers shop or a public house saved more people being killed ? Or allowing and controlling a whole unit of RUC agents namely the Mount Vernon UVF commit up to 15 murders of innocent people or even Stakeknife who was alleded to be involved in up to 60 murders be in any way within the law or be classed even as a tactic in trying to prevent murder.

  • lamhdearg2

    tacapall, ta failte.

  • lamhdearg2

    they say a runnaway horse is best controled by gently directing it into a corner, some would perfer to shoot it in the head.

  • Reader

    tacapall, you are still looking at who, not how many. For instance the IRA were going to put someone in Stakeknife’s role, and expect them to track down and kill agents and informers. Far better that Stakeknife’s job was done badly, and that the most important agents and informers were kept in place. I’m cynical enough to think that the death of some perfectly loyal Provos may have been seen as a bonus. The damage Stakeknife did to IRA operations saved far more than the 60 lives you mentioned.
    I didn’t say it was “within the law”; it was certainly “classed as a tactic”. Some people, given exceptional responsibilities, keep their hands perfectly clean by doing *nothing*. Others get their hands dirty.

  • tacapall

    Reader I see you conveniently avoided answering the question about the RUC giving loyalists weapons to murder innocent civilians or controlling a whole unit of terrorists and allowing them to murder innocent people at will. You seem to be another of those law abiding unionists who class the murder of innocent people by their own as “Getting their hands dirty” So tell me what makes those who you claim were “only getting their hands dirty” any different than those who they were supposedly trying to prevent from committing murder ? Obviously deliberate murder is not deliberate in your eyes when it come to your own kind.

  • lamhdearg2

    “I see you conveniently avoided answering the question about the RUC giving loyalists weapons”
    The Het found,
    UDA quartermaster and police agent William Stobie had handed the gun to police and the police had given it back to him. Police “may have thought they had tampered with it to prevent it from being used”.
    This was done many times, other times guns when found would have a round fired ballistics recorded, and the gun returned to the hide from which it came, the hide (and gun) would then be observed in the hope of catching a big fish, this fish could then be turned, and used to push the group to which he/she belonged in the direction the gov wanted, ie to except what we have today, relative peace.
    To have kept said gun, may have for one, compromised the agent, and two, would not have stopped the killing, as the killers would have used another gun.
    It was not pleasant and for some it was horrible (words dont cover it) but it was a attempt to control a very bad situation by a gov and its forces, when normal control measures had/where failing.

  • ranger1640

    The big unanswerable is we may never be able to quantify how many 100’s of lives the agents saved? But that will never satisfy those who are forever offended.

    I believe It is the duty of the state and its agencies to ensure the safety of the majority of its subjects, when faced with a terror insurgency.

    The reality and the dogs in the street know this reality. That in a terrorist insurgency there will be victims. But the simple and irrefutable fact is no terror campaign no victims.

  • tacapall

    Lamhdearg is that the same police agent William Stobie who was also involved in the murder of Patrick Finucane who although admitting his role in the murder and implicating others was allowed home free until he was conveniently murdered by others who have yet to be captured ?

    The gun was not de-activated when it was handed back to loyalist terrorists, nor was the hiding place it was taken to observed, nor did it lead to the capture of any big fish, but it was used to push the UDA in the direction the RUC wanted them to go, ie, murder innocent people, and were any of the murderers who used the gun afterwards to murder those people arrested or convicted for any offense? Your attempts to add reason for an action you admit happened frequently makes matters worse as fk knows how many other murders were carried out with weapons handed back to the various paramilitary groups by those who were paid to uphold the law.

    The officers who give that weapon back and their superiors who approved their actions should be charged with conspiracy to murder, if they hold a position in the PSNI they should be exposed for what they are accomplices to murder.

    So what excuse are you going to come up with for the RUC allowing the murder of up to 15 people by their agents in the Mount Vernon UVF, all innocent people once again?

  • lamhdearg2

    “The gun was not de-activated when it was handed back to loyalist terrorists, nor was the hiding place it was taken to observed, nor did it lead to the capture of any big fish, but it was used to push the UDA in the direction the RUC wanted them to go, ie, murder innocent people,”

    Sorry tacapall, but you can not possibly know these things for sure.

    “So what excuse are you going to come up with for the RUC allowing the murder of up to 15 people by their agents in the Mount Vernon UVF, all innocent people once again?”

    I believe, the the Mount Vernons support of the shankill leaderships (uvf) position, in regards to that groups exceptance of the G.F.A. was instrumental in the uvf and therefore loyalists holding the line against anti G.F.A. loyalists. i believe pro G.F.A loyalists where to a degree controled by british force’s. Anti G.F.A loyalists met a sticky end.

  • lamhdearg2

    ” is that the same police agent William Stobie who was also involved in the murder of Patrick Finucane who although admitting his role in the murder and implicating others was allowed home free”

    “In April 1999, as part of the Stevens Enquiry, Stobie was arrested and charged with Finucane’s murder. In June that year, as agreed, journalist Ed Moloney published Stobie’s version of the circumstances of Finucane’s death.[10] The charges were later commuted to aiding and abetting the murder.[11] Stobie’s trial eventually collapsed because of the failure of Neil Mulholland, by now Northern Ireland Office Press Officer, to take the witness stand”
    And,
    “Stobie was rearrested and charged with murder as a result of Stevens 3. At his trial the chief witness, Neil Mullholland, refused to take the witness stand and Stobie was released.”
    tacapall, as it was the police the arrested stobie your statement that i quote,and its apparent suggestions, is at best misleading.

  • ranger1640

    lamhdearg2, you know that well worn republican mantras.

    Tell a lie long enough and it will become the truth.

    And

    Why let the truth get in the way of a good story.

  • tacapall

    Lamhdearg –

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/northern_ireland/03/stephens_inquiry/pdf/stephens_inquiry.pdf

    “Stobie was recruited as an agent by the RUC Special Branch in November 1987 following his arrest for the murder of Brian Adam Lambert for which he was released without charge. He was tasked by Special Branch until 1990 when as a result of Mulholland’s information he was arrested by the RUC for the Finucane and Lambert murders. Mulholland, however, refused to sign a statement. This fact was highlighted in a file submitted to the Director of Public Prosecutions (NI) recommending non-prosecution.

    2.6 As the UDA quartermaster of the West Belfast Brigade, Stobie had continued to be involved in the storage and supply of weapons several months after the murder of Patrick Finucane. His activities, whilst an agent, clearly indicate his central role in the commission of serious offences from at least July 1988
    onwards.

    2.7 It has now been established that before the murder of Patrick Finucane, Stobie supplied information of a murder being planned. He also provided significant information to his Special Branch handlers in the days after the murder. This principally concerned the collection of a firearm. However this vital information did not reach the original murder enquiry team and remains a significant issue under investigation by my Enquiry team”

    What is this all about –

    “I believe, the the Mount Vernons support of the shankill leaderships (uvf) position, in regards to that groups exceptance of the G.F.A. was instrumental in the uvf and therefore loyalists holding the line against anti G.F.A. loyalists. i believe pro G.F.A loyalists where to a degree controled by british force’s. Anti G.F.A loyalists met a sticky end”

    Is that the excuse you are giving for the RUC controlling a terrorist unit that they allowed to murder up to 15 people ?

    Ranger so basically you’re saying ” The ends justified the means” The RUC used terror to fight terror, murdered to get what they wanted.

  • Reader

    tacapall: Reader I see you conveniently avoided answering the question about the RUC giving loyalists weapons to murder innocent civilians or controlling a whole unit of terrorists and allowing them to murder innocent people at will.
    I explained, using one of your own examples, the purpose of running agents in an organisation. Others have pointed out that the loyalists were not short of guns. In fact, it was one of the earliest nationalist grievances that the loyalists had loads of guns from the 1970s on. What loyalists *were* short of was intelligence (in several senses), security, organisation, and strategy. That’s why their guns jammed, they shot the wrong people or simply killed random victims, and they killed more loyalists in feuds than republicans.
    Now, here’s the thing. I can dig down deep into my cynical and calculating side, thinking of how the security services might have used the loyalist terrorists, but when you say things like “…but it was used to push the UDA in the direction the RUC wanted them to go, ie, murder innocent people…”, then it is clear that you have crashed right through the walls of logic and out of the other side. Even the most cynical intelligence agent, or the most brutal and hate filled UVF thug, given one bullet and two targets, would go for the Provo, not the civilian.
    In fact, I regard the pathetic inability of the loyalists to kill off duty provos as being quite strong circumstantial evidence that they *weren’t* getting real help from agents.

  • tacapall

    Reader the scraping the bottom of the barrel excuse for giving weapons back to loyalists to murder as consisting of “sure one more weapon wont do any more harm they’ve loads more anyway” is pathetic, Where did the guns used to murder Patrick Finucane come from – allegedly stolen from the security forces – maybe the RUC didn’t want the guns jamming when they were carrying out their attacks on the Catholic population, its just as logical as your attempt to justify loyalists terrorists as somehow stupid and comical.

    So tell me Reader when the RUC were operating Agent provocateurs was their role to thwart attacks on civilians which is clear they didn’t do a good job of or to use those agents for their own advantage not necessarily known to the agent which is far the more sinister and evident.

  • lamhdearg2

    “What is this all about – ” what its all about is an answer to your “So what excuse are you going to come up with for the RUC allowing the murder”, i do not use the word excuse, what i am trying to get across to you is that i believe the people tasked with dealing with the conflict, used agents in an attempt to steer the groups doing the killings, towards an end to the killings.
    In short, i believe the use of agents helped bring to an end the killing.

  • tacapall

    Lamhdearg Nothing absolutely nothing can justify the police allowing innocent people to be murdered no matter what the reason. If someones life is in danger it is their job to save that persons life not allow them to be murdered to further their own interests.

    “i believe the use of agents helped bring to an end the killing”

    Its just as logical that using agents to murder and allow murder helped to prolong the conflict and increased the death rate.

  • ranger1640

    Guys, you have given him facts and reasoning but all you get in return are platitudes. If the campaign the RUC and others carried out terrorists was is black and white as tacapall suggests no amount of facts or reasoning will convince him.

    That is why there are no facts or reasoning in his replies just the typical bland platitudes out of the shinner handbook.

    By the way I think he needs to get the last post/word.

  • lamhdearg2

    by using and protecting agents, some of those agents reached positions within their groups the allowed the state to steer those groups towards a end game, it does not sit easy with me, but did the end jusitfiy the means?.

    On,
    ” Nothing absolutely nothing can justify the police allowing innocent people to be murdered no matter what the reason. If someones life is in danger it is their job to save that persons life not allow them to be murdered to .”
    in one of the cases your mention , the evidence leaves room for doubt, as to whether or not the police had all the facts in front of them, in the finucane case stevens says stobie han informed his handlers of a plan to kill*, not that he told them that it was finucane that was to be killed and when it was to happen, so to say this proves the police allowed him to be murdered is not correct.
    * i may be wrong on this, but thats what i have read.
    “further their own interests” or where they furthering the interests of the mass of us, the killing has almost stopped.

  • tacapall

    Ranger Im no Shinner and the facts are there for all to see, except of course Unionism who continue like yourself to, excuse, justify and dismiss all facts uncovered by various enquiries carried out by the likes of Stevens, O’Loan, Judge Cory and it seems even former RUC officers. Your “ends justify the means or fight terror with terror” philosophy renders the RUC and the British no different than those who used military action as a way for political change. They both had the same philosophy and used the same tactics and excuse
    “There was no other way” the only being one was punished for their actions while the other was rewarded and both murdered innocent people.

    Lamhdearg British ministers have publicly admitted Patrick Finucane was murdered by RUC agents.

  • lamhdearg2

    “Lamhdearg British ministers have publicly admitted Patrick Finucane was murdered by RUC agents”
    That does not mean they where in a position to stop it.

  • ranger1640

    So your not a shinner what are you are you an Irish republican or what, where are you coming from on this?

  • ranger1640

    The shinners having bought into the new policing dispensation, allowing MI5 to report to Whitehall on all matters of national security. Therefore no direct local input into matters of national security.

    Are the shinners and IRA complicit in keeping the actions they don’t want their electorate to know about they away from questioning minds and voting X’s
    Is this is why they are very muted on the Finucane issue?

    With Denis Donaldson at the heart of Sinn Fein and a confident of Gerry Adams and Freddie Scappaticci the head of the IRA “nutting squad” it is very much in the shinners/IRA’s interest to keep a lid in any more insights into their goings on and it is very much keen to keep a lid on any more agents willing to come out of the wood work.
    Hence the rubbishing of Brendan Hughes by the shinners when he came out with his Jean McConville allegations.

    That is why when all the issues around Special Branch,
    MI5 and the Force Research Unit come up. It is time for the shinners and their ilk to deflect all the attention on to Loyalists and then speak in platitudes.

  • between the bridges

    so MI5 and SB are responsible for running agents that organised feeder parades…

    ‘And when is a parade a feeder parade?’ imo a feeder parade is a smaller group parading their local area, before either joining up or traveling to a main event/parade.

  • Guys – keep to the post topic – future off-topic comments will be are being removed.