Another Post on Scotland…..

A few things:

1) A letter to the Scotsman from Lord Kilclooney (John Taylor):

As an Ulster Scot I know there would be concern in Northern Ireland should Scotland vote to leave the United Kingdom.
Northern Ireland is not only geographically close to Scotland but shares more with Scotland than with any other country. When the majority in Ireland voted for independence from the UK there were 220,000 people in County Donegal. After independence thousands emigrated back to the UK – especially to Glasgow and Londonderry. Only 100,000 now remain in Donegal.
Northern Ireland remained within the UK as was the desire of most people in that part of Ireland. Should there ever be a majority in Scotland for independence it should not be binding on all the people of Scotland.
If, say, Strathclyde or the Lowlands prefer to remain in the UK then that decision should be honoured by a partition of Scotland.

Those figures on Donegal astonished me….and of course they are just wrong – the population in 1911 was 168,537 and in 2006 was 147,264.

2) This daft requirement for a “legally binding” referendum. We’ve never had one of those before. Indeed it’s a clever quirk of the constitution that precisely by making referenda de jure advisory legal challenges are ineffective. What’s the best way to attract legal challenges? – Make a referendum “legally binding”.

3) Why are the anti independence parties blabbering on about the rest of us subsidising Scotland?

i) It is isn’t true.

ii) Shouldn’t a positive message on Scotland’s prosperity be a key element of the Unionist argument?

Confused,

Cardiff
P.S. 784 new members for the SNP….in 5 days!

P.P.S. – Really worth a read from Neal Ascherson in the Observer.

Many Scottish politicians, starting with John Smith and Donald Dewar, have talked about “the settled will of the Scottish people”. Few have taken that will to its full conclusion. But, as a matter of fact, it has been broadly clear for about 40 years. It’s really quite simple. The Scots want to run their own country as other small nations do. Most of them want to stay in the Union. They want a Scottish government that is not bossed about by London, and especially not by English politicians in parties most Scots did not vote for. As David – now Lord – Steel said a few years ago: “No self-respecting parliament can exist permanently on a grant from another parliament.”

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  • “Those figures on Donegal astonished me….and of course they are just wrong”

    Indeed they are, Dewi. According to Wiki there were 160,927 residents in the 2011 census. The county had a population of about 300,000 prior to the famine, about 200,000 when the Home Rule campaign began and reached a nadir of 108,000 when Taylor was a Stormont minister about 40 years ago.

  • John Ó Néill

    Unionist suggests partition of Scotland and cites inaccurate data *shocker*.

    What next? Gun-running to Dundee? A boundary commission?

  • padraigpearse

    Ulster Unionists appear even more afraid of Scotish Independance than Wesminster.

    No surprise there for of course right after Scotland goes its own road the little six country Protestant statelet is sunk too.

    But I was really surprised that the majority of English folk want to dump the Scottish link.

    I wonder how many of the Ou ‘Enemy want to dump the giud Orange Scots folk in the North as well. I wuid say a crivens lots more then want tae dump they Scots these selves.

  • Hopping The Border

    “Northern Ireland is not only geographically close to Scotland but shares more with Scotland than with any other country.”

    A perfect example of horses’ blinkers to accompany his sketchy statistics.

  • Here’s another thingy to add to your list, Dewi. The OICs and the SICs are none too impressed with the ‘muppets’ in Edinburgh at the moment. What happens if they demand separation from Scotland? A former SNP transport minister featured in the Rathlin Ferry Sagas!

  • Did John, as an Ulster Unionist, mean to say, “Northern Ireland is not only geographically close to Scotland but shares more with Scotland than with England and Wales.”?

  • michael-mcivor

    Lord Kilclooney is an Ulster scot who wants to keep britain as one- yet all his political life he belonged to a party who ran away from the scottish voters- whats british about the u.u.p or John Taylor’s politics-

  • HeinzGuderian

    pad is,of course,correct.
    IF Scotland goes for Independece,(and,as you can see,that’s a pretty big IF),the Ulster Unionists will all suddenley turn into nat/reps……….;-)

  • Decimus

    No surprise there for of course right after Scotland goes its own road the little six country Protestant statelet is sunk too.

    On what do you base this statement?

  • sherdy

    To the people of Scotland – John Taylor does not speak for me!
    I wish you well in your quest for independence.
    Taylor also illustrates how little democracy means to him: if the Scottish majority vote for independence and any small minority against, then the minority can wreck the plan.

  • andnowwhat

    At least the people of Scotland have insight to realise that no being able to determine who i the government of the nation is unsatifactory.

    As pointed out on Thursday’s Question Time, only once since the 50’s has the vote in Scotland determined who runs the nation.

    Meanwhile in Northern Ireland, minds remain blissfully ignorant of such an analysis.

  • Decimus

    The Scottish are not stupid. They know that their best interests lie within the security of the United Kingdom. Of course there will always be small minded nationalistic, English hating morons, but they remain in the minority. Any Scot who wants to know what independence would bring them need only look to the ROI for an example of what parochial hubris can lead to.

  • dantheman

    I find it ironic that Ulster Unionists insist that they and they alone should decide NI’s place within the UK ie it is not the business of English,Scottish or Welsh voters to have any say on the matter (just to fund Ulstertopia)

    And now suddenly they are insisting on having a say on Scotland’s place within the UK.

  • Reader

    dantheman: And now suddenly they are insisting on having a say on Scotland’s place within the UK.
    Yeah, because it’s inconceivable that any Irish nationalist would ever write a letter to a newspaper, or otherwise comment, on politics within the UK.
    And what’s your position on Welsh nationalists commenting on Scottish politics?

  • JPJ2

    “If, say, Strathclyde or the Lowlands prefer to remain in the UK then that decision should be honoured by a partition of Scotland”

    Scotland will have its revenge on his Lordship

    After Scotland declares independence, there will gradually be a series of plebiscites starting with Berwick on Tweed (and that really might happen) such that all of England North of Watford becomes part of greater Scotland over time-that will teach him to meddle in another nation’s affairs!

  • dantheman

    “Yeah, because it’s inconceivable that any Irish nationalist would ever write a letter to a newspaper, or otherwise comment, on politics within the UK.”

    They could indeed, but they would also welcome a UK wide referendum on NI’s place within the UK. Would you?

    “And what’s your position on Welsh nationalists commenting on Scottish politics?”

    None

  • Reader

    dantheman: They could indeed, but they would also welcome a UK wide referendum on NI’s place within the UK. Would you?
    Do you believe Irish Nationalists have always favoured that position; or is it just that you believe that Irish nationalists will pretend to hold as a principle any option that suits them tactically?
    Thank goodness the armed struggle is out of favour.
    As for my position on Northern Ireland – I believe that the decision on Northern Ireland should be made by the people of Northern Ireland. However, I don’t try to silence the neighbours when they express an interest.

  • dantheman

    “If, say, Strathclyde or the Lowlands prefer to remain in the UK then that decision should be honoured by a partition of Scotland.”

    Is this a policy that any (NI) Unionists would agree with?

  • Graham

    “They know that their best interests lie within the security of the United Kingdom”.

    Security is an interesting one. I’m assuming you don’t mean national security. That wouldn’t work because the Iraq and Afghanistan wars brought international terrorism to the streets of Scotland when none existed before. I imagine that post independence we’ll return to feeling that nobody’s interested in attacking us because we’ll not be attacking anyone else (we’ll be too busy trying to run our own country, minus the largest concentration of nuclear weapons in Europe on our doorstep).

    You can’t mean economic security because the last time I checked the whole of the UK economy was pumped and the big idea so far is to keep printing money and cross our fingers and hope for the best.

    I’m struggling now. What security?

  • Hopping The Border

    “If, say, Strathclyde or the Lowlands prefer to remain in the UK then that decision should be honoured by a partition of Scotland

    So by the same measure, if Fermanagh, Armagh, Derry or Tyrone wished to leave the UK then this decision should be honoured by the UK government?

    Or is choice a one way (blue white and red) street?

  • john

    Sorry what was that about a UK wide referendum on Northern Ireland – I would think SF would be all for it

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Northern-Ireland-question-UK-BSA.svg

  • Kaido

    What about a Celtic Nation comprising our Irish, Scottish and Welsh cousins. Potential expansion for the future could include Cornwall, Brittany, Catalonia and Galicia.

    Presume NI would opt out of such an alliance.

  • Tochais Síoraí

    Keep sending the letters, John!

  • dantheman

    HTB

    “So by the same measure, if Fermanagh, Armagh, Derry or Tyrone wished to leave the UK then this decision should be honoured by the UK government?

    Or is choice a one way (blue white and red) street?”

    Or simply Tyrone & Fermanagh in the 1920’s?

    Unionists want the current borders of NI respected when they say so, or it suits them. They have an issue with democracy, they think it means “Protestant majority rule”.

    Proof, if ever it were needed, that NI is simply a land grab, not a state

  • Reader

    Kaido: What about a Celtic Nation comprising…
    You left out Liverpool; presumably because its inclusion would strain an already ludicrous translation budget, or because it still contains too many Anglo-Saxons.

  • Reader

    dantheman: Proof, if ever it were needed, that NI is simply a land grab, not a state
    This particular topic has been bounced around between a few nationalist posters, collecting casual assertions. How is this proof of anything?