Irish emigration – most to go Britain

I’m probably lagging behind on this so apologies if you’re au fait but I’ve just caught up with the Irish( republic)  emigrant figures for the last year  – 76, 400 to end of April 2011, up 17%, according to the Irish Times report. I decided to search for them as most of the news stories I saw last year highlighted the US and old Commonwealth countries as emigration destinations but barely mentioned Britain. Can that really be true I thought? And indeed it wasn’t, especially taking into account to difference between temporary work visits and longer ones. So I wonder if traces remain of an old reluctance to acknowledge GB, or the thought that making Britain as the destination of choice is somehow less sexy that further afield?  Granted that Oz is booming but none of the others is…

 

Some 16,130 (UK) national insurance numbers were issued to Irish citizens in the 12 months to the end of March, a 56 per cent increase on the previous year.

Australia, the number of temporary Irish residents increased by 6,193 to 20,493 in the first six months of this year. There was a rise of 3,311 in the number of working holidaymakers, aged between 18 and 30, in the six months to the end of June to 12,945.

The number of Irish people employed on sponsored skilled work (long stay) visas increased by 2,877 in the six months to the end of June to 7,421, highlighting that more Irish emigrants are filling posts where skill deficits exist.

Canada issued 3,869 work permits to Irish citizens in the first six months of this year, more than the 3,729 it issued during all of 2010.

The US issued a total of 17,755 non-immigrant visas – covering students’ work programmes, intra-company transfers and other temporary workers – in the 11 months to December, a 22 per cent increase on the previous year.

A total of 306 immigrant visas were issued to Irish people in the 11 months to December, a slight increase on the previous year. Irish immigrant groups in the US also reported an increase in the number of undocumented Irish who remained in the country after their visas expired.

New Zealand’s department of labour said a total of 4,400 Irish people were granted work permits in the year to the end of June, up 10 per cent. Year-long working holiday visas accounted for about 60 per cent of the total

Surprisingly perhaps…

There was also a rise in the number of Irish returning to the State in the same period (up 3,800 to 17,000) but net outward migration among Irish people increased by 60 per cent from 14,400 to 23,100 year on year.

 

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  • Republic of Connaught

    Brian,

    Most contemporary Irish go to London would be more specific.

    However given a choice the majority would go to Australia to stay. The lifestyle and weather out there are much more enjoyable than these miserable isles. If I recall there are over a million British people in Australia.

  • antamadan

    Are there any stats on the amount of people from the south that move north and visa versa?. Wouldn’t it be interesting to see, after all the nationalist-unionist arguing. voting with your feet and all that.

  • ayeYerMa

    Irish colonists as usual exploiting the advantages of Empire.

    No doubt demand for Reunification (of Ireland and the British Isles) would only rocket should the UK truly treat them as foreign and close the borders. The Irish colonists may then be forced to acknowledge the truth for a change.

  • Harry Flashman

    “However given a choice the majority would go to Australia to stay. The lifestyle and weather out there are much more enjoyable than these miserable isles.”

    Yes and no, there’s no doubt Australia’s a great place and the lifestyle, if what you seek in life is a cheery, no-worries, laid back outdoor attitude – a very attractive idea certainly – is quite fun. However having lived in Australia I have to say there’s a certain emptiness to life there, I couldn’t quite put my finger on it and actually still can’t but having lived there I discovered there really isn’t any ‘there’ there.

    I remember hearing about the Brits who emigrated to Oz on the ten pound visa thing back in the 60’s and who subsequently returned and assumed they were the whingeing Poms of legend but I recently read a report on the BBC which showed that even today a remarkably high number of Brits still return to the UK after living in Australia. They missed the cultural life of the UK, and by that I don’t mean the operas and ballet but the sense of something happening all the time, interesting news, politics, social ideas, TV (Aussie TV is blandness personified) stuff like that.

    Australia is really like Neighbours; nice suburban lives led in peaceful tranquility with no great excitement other than one’s one domestic affairs and the local sports.

    I have often believed that Perth would be a great place to bring up a young family; sunny, clean, safe, good housing and infrastructure but you’d need to switch off 90% of your brain cells to get by, there’s simply no ooomph! to life there.

    I think Australia is like that in general. Give me the craziness of Asia any day.

  • jonno99

    Or more specifically if the subvention from Westminster was to dry up over night the NI state would collapse. The northern economy remains highly uncompetitive. Emigration is now a real issue for both parts of Ireland. And the economic holocaust doesn’t just stop at the Irish border, Tough times lie ahead for both jurisdictions so emigration has reared its ugly head yet again as the temporary panacea for Ireland’s ills. The usual destinations of choice are GB, Australia and the USA. Is this then a reasoned argument against Irish reunification or is it just an indictment on current economic policy?

    A vote in favour of reunification for a separate All Ireland state may seem unlikely at this moment. Yet an Ireland (island of) with a dysfunctional state sponsored economy in the NE, restricted from really paying its own way in the world, is like a self fulfilling prophecy – doomed. An economic culture of dependency has been disastrous for the Northern Ireland economy with detrimental effects on Ireland as a whole. And not much good for the UK govt ‘ever willing’ to pay the subsidy.

    The underlying long term causes for the under performance of the Irish economy on the whole island are manifold. One such cause is a divided economic set up. Efforts to address it with North South economic co-operation are hindered by political considerations, often viewed by unionists as an embryonic All Ireland govt ready to subsume NI through the back door. Progress may be slow.

  • Harry Flashman

    “So I wonder if traces remain of an old reluctance to acknowledge GB, or the thought that making Britain as the destination of choice is somehow less sexy that further afield?”

    This reluctance to acknowledge Great Britain, more specifically England, as a place in which millions of Irish people find a more conducive, prosperous and, dare I say, happier home than the island they leave behind has long vintage.

    I remember back in the last great wave of Irish emigration in the mid-80’s, the Irish Times ran a week long series of features on the Irish abroad, the examples, with one exception, were all countries where the pioneering young Irish were making great strides. The high-flying Boston lawyer originally from Limerick, the Dublin born design engineer making his mark in Munich, the arts-centre managers in Melbourne who’d left Tipperary, the multilingual Brussels bureaucrat from Cork.

    You know the stuff, the usual oul’ shite you expect from the Irish Times. Guess which country the Irish Times chose to present the negative side of emigration, yeah of course.

    The last feature of the week sought out life for the Irish emigrant in England and all it could find of all the successful Irish emigrants in England were apparently the failures, the put upon lads from the west who were scraping a living doing casual labour on the building sites, the down and outs in the Kilburn Irish centre, interviews with Irish emigrant activists with endless statistics about homelessness, drug addiction and alcoholism among the Irish emigrant community in England.

    It was so obviously tripe you couldn’t help but laugh.

  • sliabhluachra

    Some interesting points and posts.
    Australia: A long way, the next step being the South Pole. Bland and sports mad, many Brits and Irish blend in immediately and become Ossies. The Tyranny of Distance is real and many return quickly. The casualties are those who get stuck betwtixt. The Mulcahys, owners of The Phoenix/Hibernia, did a lot of flitting. The current ethnic cleansing happening in Ireland gives the young no chance to meet their expectations in Ireland and thus they go down under. Thanks FF/SF.
    The carnival of reaction that is partition has not helped. Not only were economies lost but both sides got stuck with reactionaries parties like SF. The dole mentality.
    Perfidious Albion: The sad cases are worth recalling and they exist in countries other than Britain. Mental health is an issue not only with the Irish (in Britain) but with other immigrant groups too. There were over 1 million Irish born in London in the 1960s. Now places like Kilburn are Islamic or Jamaican with large dollops of East Europeans/ Chinese/whatevers thrown in. When the tide goes out, often only the saddest and most plaintive sea shells remain.
    Speaking of the Irish Times, they did have, once, a good article. It was about St Patrick’s day in Cricklewood with a church full of immigrants blasting out Hail Glorious St Patrick. The writer commented on the pathos of it. Though this ethnic cleansing has returned as part of the Grand Agenda, Paddy (or whatever young Irish are called now) does not use the hod so much.
    Papers will always highlight the apparent successes. The relative failures will slither away from the limelight, be it the media or Embassy functions or class reunions, so the others may all the better croak. The media and FF/SF, who caused the ethnic cleansing will then be able to parrot about the silver lining, the game of two halves , decisive decisions and whatever.
    At the time of the 1848 ethnic cleansing, most Irish fled to England too though Boston got the limelight

  • Red Kangaroo

    Flashman says “there’s no doubt Australia’s a great place and the lifestyle, if what you seek in life is a cheery, no-worries, laid back outdoor attitude” Wow, what fool would want to live such a life? When we can have so much fun here wallowing in our victimhood and grievance, all the while being morally superior to not only our neighbours but the rest of the world

  • Alanbrooke

    johnno99

    I’m not a great fan of the current NI economic position, but while it’s great to give out about the stupidity of it all, are you seriously expecting 1.7 million people to vote for a 15-20% cut in their living standard ? Olli Rehn has offered the 4.3 million voters of ROI a hit of 5-10% and many of the younger ones are voting with their feet. Indeed it strikes me that money poured into the North is probably helping elements of as inter Ireland trade is higher than it otherwise would be and there aren’t loads of people with belfast accents trying to undercut your wages and take your jobs. So if the brit gold ever stops flowing short to medium term term at least the whole of Ireland will be worse off.

  • Old Mortality

    What is most striking about Irish emigration is that it is almost exclusively to English-speaking destinations. There’s never been a Kilburn in Paris or Munich. The Irish are still more West Briton than European.

  • Harry Flashman

    “Wow, what fool would want to live such a life?”

    I did say that the idea of such a life was “a very attractive idea certainly” and frankly life in a Congolese prison is occasionally more attractive than life in Norn Iron but I wasn’t really comparing Oz with NI, there is nothing to compare, but more with life in other developed societies.

    Australia is a magnificent land where the people lead their lives the way they want to and no apologies to anyone else, I’m a huge fan of the Aussies and can think of nothing better than a night spent in their invariably convivial company.

    However life in Australia, after you’ve seen the outback, done your scuba diving, surfing, rock climbing whatever, is, how shall I put it, just a wee bit unfulfilling and, er, slightly boring.

  • Barnshee

    “The underlying long term causes for the under performance of the Irish economy on the whole island are manifold”

    No they are not

    As always the cause is too many people for the economy to support in relative comfort -north and south. What about a slogan Zip up or jonnies for Ireland ?

    If the brits had a brain they would close the ports and tell them to foxtrot oscar

  • sliabhluachra

    Barnshee: James Connolly said if the Dutch ruled Ireland, they would feed Europe and if the irish ruled Holland, they would all drown.
    The days of big Irish families are long gone. And Irealnd is still being colonised: the best are leaving as there are no jobs consistent with their expectations. Thanks FF/SF.

  • Skinner

    Surely it is no surprise that most emigrants will go to the closest place that they can find work and not have to learn a foreign language.

  • andnowwhat

    Indeed Skinner. And less than an hour’s flight on a budget airline.

    I worked in London in the 80’s (painting and decorating) and my boss wouldn’t touch a local with a bargepole, not a day’s work in them, he would tell us.

  • jonno99

    Allanbrooke

    “are you seriously expecting 1.7 million people to vote for a 15-20% cut in their living standard ?”

    As in vote to maintain a subsidised economic backwater hived off from the rest of Ireland?. The Northern economy is addicted to the handout. A habit HM govt in Westminster will need to address.

  • sonofstrongbow

    What is it that some find so difficult to grasp about Northern Ireland’s place in the UK? All this nonsense about a “subsidised economic backwater” as some weird justification for a united Ireland.

    If that argument is followed will we see a Republic of North West England or the Peoples’ Commonwealth of Liverpool anytime soon? For that matter is Donegal to be cast adrift to save the taxpayers of the Pale a few Euro?

    It is fortunate that the peoples and regions of most countries do not owe their citizenship or place in the nation to their individual or collective financial worth. If that were the case the local bru would have an ‘out’ door that opened onto the local airport and folks would be signing on for a no-choice one-way ticket out.

  • sliabhluachra

    Sonofstrongbow: As you know, RCs were actively encouraged to emigrate for many years from the six occupied counties.
    Even Cameron gets confused about what the UK is. The sx occupied counties are an aberation and well you know it. It is not as British as Finchley.
    This year wil be a good year for Protestants. Memories of Titanic and sucking from Mther England’s teat in the good old days when Croppy lay down, as he is doing again. It is still dependent, still a back water of scroungers as Harold Wilson put it. Plus le change.
    The economic policies of Sinn Fein/DUP, SDLP etc are all handout economics. No entrepreneurship at all. Same old story North and South.

  • Old Mortality

    sliabhluachra
    ‘As you know,RCs were actively encouraged to emigrate for many years from the six occupied counties.’

    I didn’t know that. Can you tell us what measures were in place; assistance with relocation expenses?
    Can you also point to any statistical evidence that the rate of emigration by RCs from NI was higher than from the RoI?
    One thing I can tell you is that emigration by Protestants from NI was not unknown.
    And another thing: NI was not nearly as financially dependent on the rest of the UK as it is now. Say what you like about ‘fifty years of Unionist misrule’ but it didn’t include profligate public spending. The current state of dependency developed after direct rule was imposed.

  • PaddyReilly

    It was Government policy to employ Protestants in preference to Catholics. Where no suitable Protestant candidate presented himself, a Catholic could be employed instead. (No attempt was made to determine the political leaning of the candidates, religion was considered sufficient proof.) Bernadette Devlin’s father, who had achieved the status of road sweeper, found the words ‘Political Suspect’ marked on his cards, and so had to go to England to work, as no-one in NI would employ him. (However, elsewhere in her book, she mentions that there may have been reason to suspect him.) If an unemployed Catholic worker had wished to relocate to England, I imagine some grant would have been available to him: though of course, the same would be true of Protestants.

    Under this régime, the Holy Graal of Unionism was achieved in 1964: every single M.P. (12/12) sent to Westminster was a Unionist. However, since the Fair Emploment Act of 1976, this has been reversed. Nowadays, even insignificant amounts of overtime are squabbled over. Since 1976, the proportion of Catholics in the population has been rising, by approximately 1% every two years. Strangely though, the Catholic birth-rate has been falling in all that time. The number of Nationalist M.P.s has risen from zero to just one short of 50%. The number of Unionist M.P. had fallen from 100% to 50%.

    When the Sunday Times brought out its first colour supplements in the 60s, it contained advertisements encouraging readers to emigrate to 1) South Africa 2) Northern Ireland. Not that either of these territories lacked inhabitants, just those of the right sort.

  • sliabhluachra

    PaddyReilly: Implicit in your post is that Old Mortality should have compared emigration and other rates of RCs in the 6 cos with that of non RCs in the 6 cos.

  • Harry Flashman

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.

    In terms of economic, civic, social, political and human rights the Republic of Ireland was a much worse place than Northern Ireland pre-1972.

    It’s only that the horrific abuses of human rights in the South were covered up better by the southern government, establishment and media.

  • Reader

    PaddyReilly: Bernadette Devlin’s father, who had achieved the status of road sweeper, found the words ‘Political Suspect’ marked on his cards, and so had to go to England to work, as no-one in NI would employ him.
    Not even nationalist employers, or Newry council?

    sliabhluachra: Implicit in your post is that Old Mortality should have compared emigration and other rates of RCs in the 6 cos with that of non RCs in the 6 cos.
    Better correlate it with family size too, as any family will be limited in its ability to help to find economic opportunities for its offspring. The British aristocracy sent its younger sons into the military and the clergy. And the Free State had massive rates of emigration too.

  • PaddyReilly

    Not even nationalist employers, or Newry council?

    Their finite resources were obviously already stretched employing a number of equally deserving cases. While one does not generally believe the excuses of the unemployed for their unemployment, the difference here is that Mr Devlin decd was not unemployed. He travelled to the North of England to work there, meaning that he only saw his wife and daughters once a year. The natural human tendency towards economy of effort suggests that he would not have done so, if he could find work in Coalisland or the environs.

  • Old Mortality

    Paddy
    What you imagine is not good enough and the main question which I put to sliabhluachra as to whether rates of emigration were higher from the RoI remains unanswered.

    Reader
    I agree with you about family size. The RoI was effectively dumping its surplus population on the UK. Of course no Irish politician on either side of the border would dare suggest that population growth was excessive.

  • PaddyReilly

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. In terms of economic, civic, social, political and human rights the Republic of Ireland was a much worse place than Northern Ireland pre-1972.

    Say it as often as you like but it won’t be true. The Irish Free State and the Irish Republic in its first two decades was probably not a good place to be an orphan or an unmarried mother, and school-teachers with intellectual pretensions were not happy at the way society subordinated them to the will of priests, but it was a democracy, and that made all the difference.

    The Government did not lead its country into unwinnable wars which the people did not want. There was no fixed them and us. All TDs and aspirant TDs needed to court every available vote: any established gravy train could be overthrown at a moment’s notice. So there was no substantial class of people who could see that the state was irrevocably against them and no large body of people who believed that they were its perpetually favoured beneficiaries. All right there were those who were forced to immigrate and those who had the resources to stay, but as the former were generally the children of the latter, the build up of resentment which turned NI into a war zone within the shortest of periods just did not occur.

  • sliabhluachra

    Old Mortality: You are using the wrong comparitor. PaddyReilly is trying to explain to you what the right one was. The Orange State had a privileged artifically gerrymandered Orange majority who got their bucks from the British link and their kicks form kicking the Croppies and disctriminating against them.
    At the outbreak of the Great war, Dublin had beer, biscuits and bread? Why are you trying to argue that is the right comparitor for Belfast Catholics who only had the mills and the deep sea port?
    Of course, not all 6 co Prots were raving Paisleyites on the surface but they were all conditioned to believe they suckled at Mother England’s teat and the Croppies were set on weaning them away from it.
    Protestant liberals are like white South African liberals, who believed it was only the Africaans who exploited the blacks. If you try to argue otherwise, you are in self denial about your past.

  • PaddyReilly

    not all 6 co Prots were raving Paisleyites

    Dr Paisley, in elections for the European Parliament, headed the poll. One third of the electorate (plus) were Nationalists, so of those who remained more than 50% were Paisley supporters. About their raving capacities I can supply no statistics.

  • Harry Flashman

    “The Irish Free State and the Irish Republic in its first two decades was probably not a good place to be an orphan or an unmarried mother,”

    For the first fifty years of its existence the Irish Republic (note; not Free State) was a dreadful place to be poor, a child, a woman, gay, a socialist, a free thinker or anyone other than a white, middle class Catholic man.

    It had endemic state-sponsored violence against poor people, women and children, of a horrific nature unimaginable in Northern Ireland. Compare the Magdalene homes or Clifden industrial school with Ballygawley’s housing policy or Fermanagh’s schoolbus driver recruitment figures to gain an insight into the relative horrors of life in the two respective societies.

    The so-called “Republic” (qv Enda Kenny) was a state which had Catholic ideology written into its constitution which discriminated appallingly against fifty percent of the population (women) denying them absolute basic human rights in the field of medical care, marital rights, sexual freedom, and employment and other socio-economic rights on a scale monumentally worse than that suffered by Catholics in Northern Ireland.

    Socialists were beaten off the streets by truncheon wielding Gardai in Dublin decades before October 5th 1968. Violence and sexual abuse was administered by state officials in state-run institutions with the active connivance of the state establishment on an industrial scale.

    What went on in prisons, orphanages and mental institutions in Holy Catholic Ireland left anything that happened in Long Kesh in the ha’penny place.

    Thousands of books were banned at the request of the Catholic heirarchy, as was legislation regarding women’s and children’s health. Governments were overthrown at the whim of Catholic archbishops.

    Poverty was on a scale unknown in Northern Ireland forcing millions of their citizens to flee to er, the United Kingdom for the most part oddly enough.

    Open your eyes, the Republic of Ireland was by a magnitude of ten a worse place to live than Northern Ireland, which might explain why so many people from the South fled north and so few did vice-versa.

  • sliabhluachra

    It is really hard to take these unreflective, anti Catholic supremacist posts seriously.
    Protestant Belfast was an integral part of the British industrial empire. It built ships and sails for the Royal navy, as did places like Glasgow. It suckled at Mother England’s teat.
    The skilled, largely Protestant work force discriminated against the unskilled, where RCs were disproportionately represented. That pattern was the same everywhere, in Protestant Dublin as much as Protestant Belfast/Glasgow where sectarian supremacist ideas accentuated differences.
    Bernie Devlin’s da had no chance of getting a start from such people.
    The South of Ireland, ie areas not contiguous to Belfast, had little employment opportunities for historical and other reasons. Bread, biscuits and beer was Dublin’s lot.
    Though the South had an indolent RC leadership, waiting for the fruits of Home Rule to fall to them, their Promised Land got messed up by CBS schooled boys in the 1916-23 period. The South of Ireland then developed a classical post colonial political set up, with two big parties: CnaG/FG and FF) slugging it out on personality politics.
    As regards demographics, poor people and immignrants eerywhere tend to have larger families for proven economic reasons.

    Bottom line: The Protestants of Ireland, as much as the Protestants of Dixieland or South Africa, have a disreputable past to live down. They should at least reflect on it. That the provos matched them in savagery is no reason not to do some over due reflection on their own awful sins.
    The independent South has much to be proud of from the Ardnacrusha scheme, Shannon airport innovations, inward investment etc. It has much to reflect on, like the easy ride it gave to its minorities, like how it led politicians from McGrath(Sweepstakes) and Dev down to the present lot, milk it.
    There is a lot to reflect on so that there might, one day, be a proper transformation in Ireland. Personally, I think that chance is lost for the foreseeable future, thanks to the gombeen mentality that rules. Some things never change.

  • Old Mortality

    sliabhluachra
    I entered this thread by asking you to substantiate one assertion. You have ignored the objective questions and have instead imputed motives to my asking of them.
    Sadly. this is all too typical of Slugger at the moment: “I believe it’s true so it must be true.” No evidence required.

  • Harry Flashman

    “The independent South has much to be proud of…”

    The ‘independent’ (not that independent according to the current taoiseach) South was a white, middle class, male, Catholic state for a white, middle class, male Catholic people. For the rest of the population, the majority, it was a hellhole.

    None of the worst charges that can be levelled against Stormont compare to the horrific abuses of human rights endemic in the southern state for over half a century.

    Ardnacrusha does not make up for Artane.

  • antamadan

    Harry Flashman says ‘which might explain why so many people from the South fled north and so few did vice-versa.’

    I would love to see the statistics. You see I think that far more people from NI moved south than the other way round after the immidiate partion period.

  • sliabhluachra

    Old Mortality: I gave you the answer several times. The correct comparitor is Protestants in the 6 cos.
    South Armagh was declared an area of beauty so no building/employment could happen there. Newry and Derry were cut off from their hinterlands to help starve the Croppies out. Remember the crack at throwing the pennies ointo the Croppies from Derry’s Walls? Ah the good old days.
    The Orange State is indefensible so don’t bother.
    Harry F: There was massive southward rush following the 1920 pogroms in Belfast and Lisburn. Michael Woods’ family was one of those. Most who moved North were disgruntled Unionists who wept for the loss of the most extreme manifestations of their privileges under the British apartheid regime.
    Artane? Run on the cheap by exploiting the Christian Brothers. What would you have done? Fed the whipper snappers cake? How would you have bought the cake?
    Of course, the rich could have adopted the little gurriers or have given of their time but they were probably too busy writing to the Irish Times and doing the scams hey inherited from British times. Maurice Dockrell and coal, etc.
    Gene Kerrigan had a good article in yesterday’s Sindo entitled Is your toilet half full or half empty? About ex SFWP ministers insisting on private, gilded toilets and today’s Indo has it that Ministers got private photods taken with Obama – at tax payers’ expense. “We are living beyond our means”

  • PaddyReilly

    For the first fifty years of its existence the Irish Republic was a dreadful place to be poor, a child, a woman, gay, a socialist, a free thinker or anyone other than a white, middle class Catholic man.

    Must have been really bad if you were an indigent 8 year old socialist agnostic lesbian. You’re not Sinéad O’Connor are you? I can remember back in 1993 receiving a letter from a half cracked dentally challenged bogman of doubtful proclivities which said “Tomorrow homosexuality will be legalised in Ireland and we can all get stuck in.” I laughed for about an hour after that.

    Funnily enough I do remember quite a few of the first 50 years of the Irish Republic. Children it seemed to me were happy, omnipresent and very anarchic. Bus conductors wore Connolly Club badges. I don’t see that reordering society to make youthful Sinéad O’Connors its beneficiaries is either practical or desireable.

  • Harry Flashman

    The Republic was a backward, poor, sectarian, mysogynistic, racist, homophobic society with institutionalized rape and pedophilia carried out by state authorities.

    Violence against the marginalized, the weak, the poor and children was endemic in that country.

    Women were third class citizens with limited rights in regard to health, welfare, employment and marriage.

    Poverty-levels were appalling, millions were forced into exile.

    The Catholic hierarchy deemed which acts of government legislation, indeed which governments, were acceptable to them.

    Censorship was on a scale unknown in western democracies.

    But hey, look at the North there were only two Catholic schoolbus drivers in Fermanagh, what a hellhole.

  • PaddyReilly

    The contradictions in this rant are amazing.
    If homophobia is wrong, what is wrong with institutionalised paedophilia?
    Isn’t that man-boy love?
    The women, who you think were 3rd class citizens, were the ones who kept the Catholic Church going. Séamus Heaney said it well:-

    The lambeg balloons at his belly, weighs
    Him back on his haunches, lodging thunder
    Grossly there between his chin and his knees.
    He is raised up by what he buckles under.

    Racist? Racist ffs? Oh yes, I was in the Ballyjamesduff KKK, we had grand times burning out the Cootehill Plantation negrahs.

    An American friend told me that Nixon’s mistake in the Watergate Burglary was that he picked on the Democrat party, who were far too powerful to be treated in this fashion. If he had done the same to the Communists, or any other small outfit, he would have got away with it.

    Unionism’s mistake was picking on the Fermanagh Catholics, who outnumber the Fermanagh Unionists. It created two societies, us and them, at loggerheads with each other.

    Now in the Republic they got it right. Beaten as a child? Just wait till you grow up and you can have children and beat them. Molested in the Orphanage? When you grow up you can get a job there yourself, and carry on the good work. Exploited by someone richer than you? Just find someone poorer than you and exploit them. But the crowning touch was the piece of genius that led to endemic racism: oppressing a people who weren’t even there. Now, that is the foundation of a stable society.

    Btw, outsiders, French, Germans, etc, even English, who visited Ireland in the first 20 years of the Republic managed to travel across Cavan, Fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry and Donegal without even noticing there was a border there. The two societies were identical.

  • Harry Flashman

    Paddy is that gibberish meant to be a rebuttal of my facts?

  • PaddyReilly

    Your facts? Your rant you mean.
    If women were oppressed why didn’t they vote to amend it? They had votes and there are more of them than men.

    Homosexuality was decriminalised in 1967 in England, in 1982 in Northern Ireland and 1993 in the Republic. The sin of the Irish was having their own legal system and doing things on a different timescale. Perhaps Your Eminence would care to tell me when the correct date for this amendment was.

    The (British imposed) act was meant to protect boys from sexual exploitation and keep public places free from importuning. It could have no effect on an act that is properly done in private, without witnesses. Oscar Wilde was done for rent-boys, not Bosie.

    We have here also an extended deployment of a fallacy propounded by the Americans under the name of ‘voting with your feet.’ Invented perhaps by the Ancient Confucians, it holds that if people from X migrate to Y, then the King of Y is morally superior. This is obviously untrue. If I go to work in Saudi Arabia, it is not because I think it is the most attractive society going. If Saudi Arabia has assets to employ me, it is not because its mullahs are more virtuous than the clerics of my own land. Great migrations are caused by economics, not the availability of dirty books. Americans migrate all the time, but within the same country.

    To this day, paedophiles from the rich West travel to South Asia because it offers greater opportunities for paedophilia. Perhaps your Eminence would care to tell me when it will be all right to decriminalise this practice here?

  • Harry Flashman

    “To this day, paedophiles from the rich West travel to South Asia because it offers greater opportunities for paedophilia. Perhaps your Eminence would care to tell me when it will be all right to decriminalise this practice here?”

    What the feck are you rambling on about? Try to stick to the points under discussion.

  • Old Mortality

    sliabhluachra
    You have failed to identify any measures that were in place to ACTIVELY encourage emigration by Irish/RCs from NI. You can drone on about discrimination (or incontinent procreation, if you prefer) but these are only PASSIVE encouragements to emigrate.
    The rate of emigration among Protestants in NI is not a useful comparator. It has the advantage for you of being unavailable.You should, however, be able to lay your hands on statistics for total emigration from both RoI and NI. If you can find that the rate from NI was higher then you may have a valid argument. However, what I think you would find that emigration was but part of the miserable lot of being Irish in the 20th century and it was a more miserable lot if you happened to live in the RoI.

  • PaddyReilly

    Good God, Flashman, are you still up?
    Can I make it easier for you

    1) The Irish Republic, you state, was a homophobic society
    2) This is proven by the fact that the laws against homosexuals were still on the statute book until 1993, as opposed to progressive Northern Ireland where they were dumped in 1982.
    3) Laws against homosexuality were devised by the British Govt to protect boys from sexual exploitation
    4) Yet you cite the sexual exploitation of boys as one of the faults of Irish Society.

    Could you please reply to the points I make that you understand, instead of complaining about the ones you don’t understand.

  • PaddyReilly

    The question is, and you are sedulously avoiding this, when was it right for the Irish Republic to decriminalise homosexual acts. 1948? 1967? 1982? You have already established that 1993 was too late. We need to know what we have done wrong and go about amending it.

  • sliabhluachra

    Old Mortality. You are tryoing to defend a supremacist mini state. That cannot be done.
    Emigration tends to be relatively high where jobs are scarce and oportunities are few. I have explained to you on mamny occasions that that was the picture in most of Ireland until at least the 1960s. In trying to defend the Orange fascist statelet, you fudge.
    The liberated part of Ireland “enjoyed” net immigration during the bubble years and many English people now live there, free of the disctrimination and killings that were the hall mark of the Orange fascist sate.

  • Reader

    PaddyReilly: Laws against homosexuality were devised by the British Govt to protect boys from sexual exploitation
    And now there are no laws against homosexuality, but there *are* laws to protect boys (and girls) from sexual exploitation. And with examples multiplying across the world of how to do this, the Republic took until 1993 to work it out. And 19 years later, you’re still struggling to get your head round it.

  • PaddyReilly

    19 years is but a short time in the eyes of a legislature. There’s plenty of laws on the statute book- in England – which have been in need of review for more than 19 years. The existing laws were powerful enough to deal with any eventuality. It was merely a matter of reining them in so that some acts- eloquently described at the time as ‘young lads roiding each other’ were placed outwith the scope of the rule, as opposed to being something which was left to the discretion of the guards.

  • sliabhluachra

    Don’t be so Hibernophobic.

    Where, incidentally, is Ireland’s equiivalent of Alan Turing? Not with Mick MacLiamoir and Hilton Edwards, both of whom fled England for Dublin.

  • George

    sliabhluachra
    “Barnshee: James Connolly said if the Dutch ruled Ireland, they would feed Europe and if the irish ruled Holland, they would all drown.”

    I believe that was Bismarck not Connolly.

  • antamadan

    OK I have the statistics, and it shows the opposite to Flashman’s statement that people fled the south for the north and relatively few went the other way

    The stats show that 50,000 born in the North now live in ROI, while 26,000 born in the South now live in the NI.

    So if the North is what the South might be like if it was part of the UK, and the South is what the North might be like if it was part of a U.I. the ‘voting with your feet’ statistics favour the nationalist narrative rather than the unionist one.

    Of course both parts of Ireland could well be crap and London could well be far better for a career than either part of Ireland, but that is really not relevant in a North-South comparison. It’s like the unionist who points out that he is living in the UK and the UK’s highest temperature is consistently higher than ROI’s highest temperature and so NI is warmer than ROI thanks to God and the union 🙂

    The website below shows that 1.2% of ROI’s (2006) population of 4172,013 were born in NI. Thus 50,000 people born in the north moved south

    http://www.migrationinformation.org/Profiles/display.cfm?ID=740

    The website below shows (NI at end), that there were 26000 people born in the ROI resident in NI
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/may/26/foreign-born-uk-population

  • PaddyReilly

    It’s like the unionist who points out that he is living in the UK and the UK’s highest temperature is consistently higher than ROI’s highest temperature and so NI is warmer than ROI thanks to God and the union

    Excellent! Unfortunately this thinking is all too common.

  • Harry Flashman

    You seem rather hung up about the homosexuality angle Paddy old boy, I merely mentioned it to prove that the groups of people oppressed by the Irish Republic went beyond a few youngsters and the odd frustrated school teacher. If you want to focus on that one group though fair enough.

    However I maintain that Catholic ideology written into the constitution, bans on divorce, contraception and any sort of women’s reproductive health, to the point where a Catholic archbishop could remove a government trying to implement modest reforms were quite massive abuses of human and civil rights.

    Massive book censorship at the behest of the Vatican is another pretty damn awful piece of repressive legislation.

    That and the institutionalized violence and sexual abuse of vulnerable Irish citizens for half a century in state-run institutions, by state officials with state sanction and covered up by the state ranks far, far worse than anything that happened under Stormont.

    But hey obsess about the homosexual angle by all means.

  • wee buns

    In the 80s during the last big recession the majority emigrated to mostly Britain or else America. These days it is Australia and Canada, with emphasis on the former – whole villages of young ones going together, with low air fares; about £700.

    The discussion has drifted into an off-point slagging match as to which jurisdiction is the most awful to flee from, but surely of more relevance is the fact a Diaspora exists as the sole safety valve for economic meltdown – the export of young brains/brawn – a form of human trafficking – I’d agree it is thanks to FF and their utter disregard for the nation’s citizens.

  • PaddyReilly

    I emigrated and disemigrated several times in 1972. I noticed you couldn’t get Oz Magazine in Ireland, or listen to “Give Ireland back to the Irish” in England. Neither were banned outright, but if Eason’s doesn’t stock it and the BBC doesn’t play it, it will disappear from the public consciousness. You can’t buy Kitty Kelley’s ‘The Royals’ in the UK, I had to order it by post from the USA, it was rubbish, mostly copied from Private Eye.

    In Saudi you can have 4 wives, in Ireland only one. Neither is right or wrong, they just suit the people of these two respective countries.

    In Aberaeron police seized all copies of ‘Parade’ on sale, when it was freely available in nearby Aberystwyth, the big smoke. In the Isle of Lewis you couldn’t get a ferry on a Sunday, or buy a cup of tea, and would probably be well advised not be be seen riding a bicycle or taking a photograph. One islander called the police because he could see lads playing football, a mile away from the village, through his telescope. And they came, too, and stopped the match. In Welsh Wales, children’s slides and swings were chained up on the Sabbath, as they were in your native Dingdongderry, until the gerrymandering was removed. Yes a man came from the council to chain up the swings, all over the Bogside as well as the Waterside, and unlocked them again on Monday: something quite unheard of in England or Liberated Ireland, where children spent Sunday drinking Red lemonade outside pubs.

    But all this is by the by. You don’t lay bombs so your weans can use the swings on Sunday, you buy wire clippers. You don’t start a revolution to read censored books: you get them posted to you, disguised as missals. To be perfectly honest, the average Irishman was mostly concerned about opening hours, and indifferent to any kind of reading matter, however salacious. Your criticism of the Irish Constitution, of Irish Censorship, of Irish anti-socialism, of Irish proneness to follow the advice of Archbishops is an attack on the principle of democracy. Ireland was run in a way that suited the Irish of those times: it is now run in a way that suits the current generation. Neither way is right, and neither way is wrong except inasmuch as they suit the taste of the consumers.

    Northern Ireland was run to disoblige as many people as possible, and it wasn’t the Bogside swings they were protesting about: it was the monopolisation of state employment and political power by a particular faction which had unilaterally drawn itself into majority status by a line on the map. It was successful or unsuccessful inasmuch as this line adhered to genuine demographic change: the RUC in Donaghadee experienced no problems, in Crossmaglen they lost 56 men. And that’s why NI fell apart in the space of a year, and is a known disaster spot all over the world.

    an off-point slagging match as to which jurisdiction is the most awful to flee from

    Not quite, wee buns. In any case, some people enjoy a bit of street-fighting. What is at issue is not whether the jurisdiction is awful, which it is or is not depending on your tastes, but whether it constitutes a viable political entity.

  • Harry Flashman

    Ireland was run to suit a minority of middle class, Catholic men.