“those people that believe the use of guns and bombs brings solutions to problems”

In a major search operation across Northern Ireland five men have been arrested for questioning in connection with the murder of PSNI officer Ronan Kerr.  UTV has an interesting response from Sinn Fein’s Martin McGuinness, MP, MLA.

Speaking in the wake of the arrests, and of a pipe bomb attack in his home city, the Deputy First Minister spoke out against what he called “the disgraceful ongoing activities of those people that believe the use of guns and bombs brings solutions to problems”.  [added emphasis]

He declared that such people were “living in cloud cuckoo land” and added: “The sooner these people go away and recognise, not only are they not making a contribution to making life better for our people, they’re actually damaging it.”

*Cuckoo*  *Cuckoo*

Which might be a good point at which to re-quote Robin Wilson.

“Paramilitarism is now deemed more legitimate than when the [Good Friday] Agreement was promulgated. Evidence shows that nearly twice as many people now give credit to the reasons given by paramilitaries for their violence as in 1998, with support strongest among youth.

“This is because the alphabet soup of ‘republican’ and ‘loyalist’ organisations – responsible, along with state forces, for grievous crimes against international human rights and humanitarian law – have been legitimised after the fact as ‘ex-combatants’, reinventing themselves as peacemakers but pilloried as ‘traitors’ by their young challengers.”  [added emphasis]

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  • Independent Ulster

    This latest variety of IRA terorists will of course have obtained considerable encouragement from the British government’s response to the previous variety of IRA terorists, allegedly led by the Deputy First Minister, and who are now sitting in government.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Yawn.

  • Master McGrath

    CS I’m tempted to agree but exactly are you falling asleep about?
    Some of what is being said here may not be entirely new as in the sense of look what I have just found but some of waht is being said here is important, especially if Robin Wilson is on or at least close to the money!!

  • Dearbhla

    Does Martin Mc Guinness not even hear an echo??? Shows that all things ar relative and perspective is ever changing!!

  • Comrade Stalin

    master mcgrath,

    Yawning at the first comment. blah blah terrorists, blah blah concessions/appeasement, blah blah reward in government etc. Some people don’t have opinions of their own, they just vomit up the same old shite people have been saying for decades.

  • USA

    “the disgraceful ongoing activities of those people that believe the use of guns and bombs brings solutions to problems

    Why is MMcG talking about Afghanistan and Iraq?
    (Emphasis added).

  • Rory Carr

    If, as Robin Wilson claims, “twice as many people now give credit to the reasons given by paramilitaries for their violence as in 1998” despite their being “responsible … for grievous crimes against international human rights and humanitarian law “, how many people, I wonder, now give credit to the reasons given by those state forces (whom Wilson also credits with responsibility for similar “grievous crimes against international human rights and humanitarian law “) for their violence?

    Of course we must bear in mind that only the UK state was actually arraigned on anti-humanitarian charges and found guilty by the European Court of Human Rights of “a practice of inhuman and degrading treatment, which practice was in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights, Article 3”. A tribunal established by Parliament has also recently adjudged that an army unit in Derry in 1972 ran amok and unlawfully killed 14 unarmed citizens without any due cause.

    And above all we must bear in mind that the very same body of people who were responsiblr for these vile anti-humanitarian acts – British statesmen, parliamentarians, civil servants and members of the armed forces, the constabulary and the intelligence services were always “legitimised” and today, despite their bloodstained past, are happy to “reinvent themselves as peacemakers”.

    But for all that, who among us would today take issue with the wise words of the Deputy Prime Minister,

    “The sooner these people go away and recognise, not only are they not making a contribution to making life better for our people, they’re actually damaging it.” ?

    Any takers?

  • tacapall

    Yeah Martin comes out with this stuff now and again when it suits but let anyone push their luck with the wrong people or make noise next to the wrong neighbours and you will feel the wrath of Martins henchmen except of course if their caught then they’re on their own, no such thing as the PIRA, yeah sure.

  • Independent Ulster

    Comrade Stalin,

    The majority of people in Northern Ireland see no moral difference between the old PIRA and the new IRA(s) save for it being deemed, by their own government, to be politically expedient for PIRA to be included in the political system.

    The only reason McGuinness condemns the new IRA(s) is because he believes they have no chance of making any further progress via violence and his words of condemnation are entirely hypocritical and meaningless.

  • Alias

    “the disgraceful ongoing activities of those people that believe the use of guns and bombs brings solutions to problems”.

    Is this just in the present political context or does it apply to the terror campaign organised by Mr McGuinness? It seems that Marty is creeping closer to dropping the qualification he usually uses to exclude the Shinners’ murder campaign when issuing condemnation against his (former) fellow travellers.

  • CharlieMcCarthy29

    Is there no way forward? No repentance or no acceptance of repentance? We wasted a whole generation. Let’s try for a better future, even though it is hard to forgive and impossible to forget..

  • aquifer

    “nearly twice as many people now give credit to the reasons given by paramilitaries for their violence as in 1998, with support strongest among youth”

    So constitutional parties are poor at nailing lies.

    Their problem to fix.

    And if they had any sense they would gang up to do it.

    I did say if.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Has anyone any idea at all about the ‘evidence’ that Robin Wilson refers to.

  • Comrade Stalin

    save for it being deemed, by their own government, to be politically expedient for PIRA to be included in the political system.

    Let me introduce you to an old-fashioned concept called “democracy”. In this scheme, a regular event known as an “election” takes place. The political parties which win a certain number of votes in these elections get to participate in the government.

    You might want to familiarize yourself with this concept. It’s caught on quickly in the western world.

  • Independent Ulster

    Comrade Stalin,

    You say,

    “Let me introduce you to an old-fashioned concept called “democracy”.

    The law abiding people in Northern Ireland were presented with a choice, either accept terrorists into government or look forward to having a foreign government(aligned with the terrorists objectives) have a substantial say in the running of your country.

    We now have to listen to the alleged leader of the terrorists who bombed their way to the negotiating table moralising about othter terrorists trying to do the same.

    Of course we can see this process as ‘democratic’ but we can also see it as a process of appeasment and coercion of the majority of the population, by their own government, who if given reasonable altenatives, would never have voted for it.

  • IU, those who sincerely believe that the PRM is committed to democratic means alone delude themselves. There’s no way that a businessman could press charges with impunity against any member of the PRM, including its political wing, or a police officer would be permitted to pursue an investigation even on the basis of strong evidence of a breach of the law.

  • Independent Ulster

    Nevin,

    You say,

    “IU, those who sincerely believe that the PRM is committed to democratic means alone delude themselves”

    Agreed. It is therefore very difficult to view the current political arrangements as ‘democratic’ or to treat the words of condemnation of the Deputy First Minister as anything other than rank hpyocricy.

  • Neil

    It is therefore very difficult to view the current political arrangements as ‘democratic’

    Apart from in the sense that the people elected were voted for by the electorate. Maybe you would think it more democratic to ignore the votes of the people you disagree with and exclude the parties you don’t like?

    SF are where they are because the Nationalist population voted for them. That’s democracy. Trying to ignore the vote of 25% of the people and exclude the party they vote for is most certainly not democratic. I think you need to work on your understaning of the term if you think the current political arrangement where people are elected determined by the proportion of votes they receive is undemocratic.

    treat the words of condemnation of the Deputy First Minister as anything other than rank hpyocricy.

    No one would (in their right minds at least) argue that SF were going to be able to get from ‘not a bullet, not an ounce’ to supporting the PSNI without being hypocritical. A small price to pay really. However the same could be said of everyone involved from Paisley’s ‘never, never, never’ to the British government not talking to terrorists.

    It’s old new bud, try and get past it. Yes SF (and the DUP) in particular are open to a charge of hypocrisy. But we have to weigh that against the benefits of having less dead people. Seems like a good deal. SF have moved in the way most of their electorate wanted them to. That’s why they have such a significant democratic mandate.

  • Into the west

    Nevin, IU

    Neither of you know MMG motives for what he says.
    what’s clear from your words is you can’t move on,
    the hypocrisy is you automatically assume that that must be true for everyone else.

    It isn’t,and that’s something you’ll only see when YOU move on.

    rarely have I had such as easy start to the day .. *ahem*

  • Neil, why doesn’t the PRM limit itself to democratic activity? Why do its elected representatives have to be protected from prosecution? Why can’t victims bring charges without fear of retribution?

  • Independent Ulster

    Into the west,

    You say,

    “Neither of you know MMG motives for what he says”.

    Perhaps not but by any reasoable standard he is a hypocrite.

    Neil,

    You say,

    “Trying to ignore the vote of 25% of the people and exclude the party they vote for is most certainly not democratic”

    Actually 29% voted for the Labour party in Britain and they are not in government. So are we to conclude that is not democratic?

    The ‘democratic’ system in Northern Ireland was arranged just so, to buy off the terrorists. Dont you agree?

  • Neil

    Nevin,

    I have neither answers nor information regarding those 3 questions. I’m merely a voter. I suspect for question two that it’s expedient for many (including the British government) not to dig too deeply into certain situations lest their role becomes clear.

    That aside I am unaware of non democratic activity or of victims being intimidated into silence so can’t really comment.

  • Neil, I don’t think we can expect any assistance from London, Dublin or, indeed, Washington when it comes to a greater measure of equality in the justice system.

    It’s likely that the ‘good’ loyalist and republican paramilitaries, elected or otherwise, will continue to receive a degree of immunity that wouldn’t be available to miscreants in other parts of these two islands.

    My information doesn’t come exclusively from material published by the MSM but some of it does come from MSM sources. Publication might well endanger victims so some stories only get to circulate on the grapevine.

  • Neil, all of our elected representatives have a democratic mandate and it would be nice to think that those who hold office could be held to account by their peers. Unfortunately the accountability mechanisms appear to be fairly ineffective.

    Ministers have been portrayed as pawns in the hands of Civil Service mandarins – Yes Minister – but we shouldn’t discount the fear factor that mandarins may be exposed to whilst in the presence of Ministers, SpAds or minders who’ve got paramilitary backgrounds or associates.

  • Scáth Shéamais

    Francie Molloy seems to have taken a different tack on this issue from McGuinness:

    “It was a very heavy handed operation, reminiscent of the bad old days of police searches and raids at homes,” he told UTV.

    “I think it has damaged the relations between police and the community in this area severely and it will take some time to recover that.”

    He added: “It did seem like a PR operation.”

  • galloglaigh

    It’s funny, that when the UVF attacked the Short Strand, the PSNI couldn’t get enough resources. Yet when they want to preform a search operation on republicans, they can find 200 officers. These people are innocent until proven guilty. The judicial system should be allowed to determine their guilt, and not some loyalist contributors to this blog.

    As for the old and the new IRA. The UVF, be they 1913 or 2011, are still the same sectarian thugs they always were. And they still have the support, it would seem, from the Police Service of Northern Ireland.

    Nothing changes eah!

  • Nunoftheabove

    galloglaigh

    That’s certainly true when it comes to the inanity and fatuity of certain posters comments, yes. Couldn’t agree with you more on that dimension of your contribution.