The BBC are reporting that Osama Bin Laden has been killed in a US special forces raid on a compound in Abbottabad, 60 miles north-east of Islamabad.
After a “firefight” Bin Laden was killed and his body taken by US forces, the president said.
Mr Obama said “no Americans were harmed”.
US officials said Bin Laden was shot in the head after resisting.
US media reports said that the body was buried at sea to conform with Islamic practice of a burial within 24 hours and to prevent any grave becoming a shrine.
Giving more details of the raid, one senior US official said a small US team had conducted the attack in about 40 minutes.
Three other men were killed in the raid – one of Bin Laden’s sons and two couriers – the official said, adding that one woman was also killed when she was used as “a shield” and two other women were injured.
One helicopter was lost due to “technical failure”. The team destroyed it and left in its other aircraft.
This author has not written a biography and will not be writing one.
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A bit awkward for the Pakistani government that he was living next door to an elite army training camp. I suspect we haven’t heard the last of that.
It is amazing that the most wanted man in the world had survived this long especially when the USA have been out to kill him for a decade. No doubt Bin Laden’s people will e wanting blood for this, I trust they fail big time.
Well done US Special Forces. Dumping his body in the ocean was a nice touch.
War on terror – $$$$ Billions
Attack on Bin Laden Compound – $3.5 million
Shot in the head, body dumped in the ocean – Priceless
Special Forces 🙂
Apparently there is bewilderment in Al-Qaeda ranks today. They assumed the early morning knock on the door announced the arrival of the ministerial Skoda and Bin Laden’s appointment as US Vice-President.
Was he not a burden to Al Qaida anyway. I personally would have liked to see a trial.
The fools, the fools, the fools
They have left us our Muslim dead
While Islam holds these graves Islam unfreed shall never be at peace
oracle: They have left us our Muslim dead
(1) Um yeah, because everything was so peaceful while he was alive…
(2) Actually, the body has been buried at sea, so the graveside orations are going to be a bit difficult.
(3) Do you think you have found a universal philosophy of vengeance, or one only shared by militant Islam and militant Irish Republicanism?
Fearglic may have touched on the real issue for the long term – whether or not Osama was an effective leader when he was alive. It was always certain that, once he was killed, his followers would be out for revenge (but that’s business as usual…), and that some US rednecks would engage in loud and tacky gloating.
Sad day – NOT – one less terrorist to export their brand of fanaticism on the world.
Van Helsing I take it you are an optimist. The world is full of terrorists some have horns some dont. There will be a few more along shortly to replace Osama.
Living in a large compound in a Pakistani garrison town. Oh dear.
This could all end very very badly indeed, but lets not let that get in the way of a little gloating. Id hate to live in Pakistan in the coming months.
I’m not going to cry for Bin Laden’s passing, but I’m nonetheless disturbed at the blasé attitude that people have towards the American president’s power to order summary executions.
qwerty12345 – yes I am – of course one of his Lt’s are already moving to take his place – is the world better off without him? – give me a hard one…
note to self don’t fly this time next year..
We saw English triumphalism all over TV on Friday.
American today.
Neither are pretty.
Over 30 years I had more to fear from the folks in the next street or village than I ever had to fear from Osama Bin Ladin in the decade after that.
I remember 9/11. I don’t think even those of us who watched it on tv will ever forget it. Bin Laden was executed and I don’t blame the Americans for doing it.
Obelisk,
This isn’t an obit – just news [albeit big news]
Won’t do Obama’s re-election chances any harm I wouldn’t think.
Comrade Stalin – do you honestly think it’s not the exact same power that our Prime Minister has?
Roman triumphalism all over the Television on Sunday.
” The guy never did me any harm like”,is hardly the point.
Hitler,Stalin and Mao never did me any harm either,but they were pretty bad guys !!
Bin Laden will be replaced,there is little doubt about that. But the propaganda of his mumblings and musings are no more.
I didn’t cheer when the news broke at 4am this morning,on BBC R4,neither did I shed a tear !!
One less religious fanatic in the world.
do you honestly think it’s not the exact same power that our Prime Minister has?
I’m not conscious of conveying any thoughts, honest or otherwise, other than the point that leaders of democratic nations ordering summary execution without trial should be deeply disturbance for those of us who value the rule of law and wish to encourage other countries to do likewise.
Comrade
For someone concerned with the blase use of summary execution,you sure chose a strange user name !!
Comrade,
I agree that it is a worry but as far as I know, there is no confirmation that those were indeed the orders and objective of the mission and unless you know otherwise you are only offering your own guess and stating it as fact.
However, lets say that there was indeed an order to kill OBL and not to take him into custody.
This wasn’t an ordinary criminal. This wasn’t someone of which there was any doubt as to his involvement in terrorist activities. There was absolutely no virtue to arresting him and placing him on trial. It wouldn’t serve to defend the rule of law and order and it most certainly would not harm it. Application of those rules is never black and white and always depends on circumstance.
For me, there was little option for the forces assigned to this task. There was absolutely no chance OBL would ever allow himself to be taken alive and faced with killing him or risking him escaping, the most sensible choice was taken.
fjh ‘We saw English triumphalism all over TV on Friday.
American today.
Neither are pretty.
Over 30 years I had more to fear from the folks in the next street or village than I ever had to fear from Osama Bin Ladin in the decade after that.’
take the blinkers off
old bean, i am sure your not the only person in owc to have lived with ‘the fear’, as for comparing the wedding with bin lid’s demise lmao!
I was sickened by this execution of an ill man, by the executions of his family and attendants, by the execution of the woman used (but of course) as “a shield” ( we have her killers’ testinony to rely upon for this) and all in a “luxury compound” which video evidence clearly shows is anything but. But most of all I am sickened by the gloating, by the grins on the faces of the Fox news team, by the cheering of every drunk in New York it seems, by the toatal failure of any in the MSM to ask questions about the alleged “firefight” (again we must rely upon the killers’ testimony as to that), the necessity to kill these people, the laws under which it was deemed they could be executed. The Al Jazeera reporter in Pakistan spoke of Bin Laden’s “being captured and killed”. That sounds suspiciously like murder to me. There is no need to kill a prisoner.
Further, the disposal of the victim’s body at sea was an appalling act and reeks of the very “philosophy of vengeance” of which Reader accuses Oracle.
If the most powerful nation in the world, in the promotion of democratic civilised behaviour, can target and kill whomever it chooses without recourse to law then terrorism has won. It has won because in this single act of terrorism the USA has demonstrated that it holds terrorism to be “a good thing”. Just so long as the good old US of A is doing the terrorising.
“For someone concerned with the blase use of summary execution,you sure chose a strange user name !!”
Haha well said.
Not in a cave in Tora Bora. Not in the lawless tribal regions. In a mansion outside Islamabad. In an affluent neighborhood.
Whose mansion? How long was he there? How did he get there? Who knew that he was there?
Now tell me that the Pakistani government, or at least important parts of it, wasn’t shielding him. I wouldn’t be surprised also that they allowed this operation to be carried out, and maybe even offered up bin Laden after all these years, in order to shore up their anti-terror bona fides and keep the aid money flowing from Washington.
Why wouldn’t Bin Laden allow himself to be taken alive ? The propaganda for al qaeda would have been priceless ! A televised trial. Execution . He would have savoured every moment of it !!
There is little doubt the warrant issued by George W had the * or alive * scribbled out !!
Osama “has” Bin Laden?
Obama gave the order to for him to killed instead of trying to capture him, if I heard correctly.
Great fan of this site and first time poster. Decide for yourselves, but take a look a David Cameron when he made his first statement on the death of Bin Laden. Me thinks he had a few too many last night and looked and sounded a bit (dar I say it) Hungover. If so, I wonder if he will get the same stick as BIFFO.
Rory Carr
In the real world the Americans could not have such a criminal demanding his legal rights, they have enough problems with that from the current Guantanamo prisoners and before you start I totally agree that Guantanamo is a stain on America, should be closed and all torture stopped.
Its not as if there was any doubt about Bin Ladens guilt he has spent a decade or more bragging about 9/11 and threatening and exhorting more, yet who doubts that once captured he would have denied all responsibility.
Its a funny thing about terrorism generally: when a terrorist is captured he demands the legal process and full democratic rights that he spends his freedom denying exist.
If you had loved ones or friends who were lost in 9/11 I’m sure you would be in a celebratory mood. Give it a rest.
This is undoubtedly a joyous day for all the civilized world.
Like decent people everywhere, I shan’t feign any upset at the demise of Mr Bin Laden however I would personally like to have seem him placed on trial; among the very good reasons for this would have been the open-goal opportunity provided to mazimize the humiliation and discreditation of his wider organization and their wicked reactionary imperialist beliefs which a number of the ‘hard left’ in these islands are more than sympathetic to, including some of the so-called republican micro-groups in Ireland. By all means let them bleat their sinister “yes, but” piffle but every single setback and bad day these Islamofascists – or at least one faction thereof – have is a good day for human civilization and for that we can be heartened. Every silver lining has a vague cloud though – there’s no such place as hell for him to go to. Pity.
I think you’ll find George W made the quip,” dead or alive ” .
Rory,I feel your pain. I really do. Mr Mugabe was at a little shindig in Rome on Sunday,despite a European travel ban. Nobody, (not on here anyway ) took the slightest notice ?
It seems Rome still wields are fair bit of power in Europe.
Maybe Special Forces should have been deployed to Rome,en route to Pakistan ?
Interesting consensus even among liberal, educated politicians in the West (e.g. Obama, Ed Milliband, pretty much everyone) that the killing of a terrorist leader represents “justice”. The contrast with liberal attitudes to security force anti-terror operations in Northern Ireland is striking (e.g. the hand-wringing over the killings of the IRA team in Gibraltar, outrage at a possible “shoot to kill” policy, etc).
So many lives could have been spared if all sections of the NI and Irish public had been as unequivocal about the justice of robust anti-terrorist action as so many people are today.
Hats off to the Northern Ireland green representative Steven Agnew, who is at least consistent on this: he tweeted disapprovingly that “violence begets violence.” Respectable position. But supporting, as that tool Sen. Peter King does, the killing of Bin Laden while making excuses for Irish terrorists is not a respectable position.
Rory Carr
“I was sickened ”
Why are republicans never sickened by their own efforts at killing, the tactical use of human suffering?
@USA ,
War on terror – $$$$ Billions
Alas no – more like trillions approx 3.5 trillion dollars as per reliable sources and all of it on the USA’s national credit card which will have to be repaid by your children and probably grandchildren unless of course the dollar is replaced as international reserve currency and devalued by say 40% in which case even the eh great grandchildren get to pay for these wars .
The summary execution of Osama should now provoke a reassessment of overall USA foreign policy leading to a withdrawal of forces from Afghanistan and Iraq . The Afghan Taliban religious fanatics will have to be brought into discussions re Afghanistan’s future as a state . The USA can help restore it’s tattered image in the region by insisting that any new government in Afghanistan will abide by the UN Charter of Human Rights which demands that women are given equal rights to men and that freedom of religion should be a part of any future Afghan Constitution . They could do the same then in Saudi Arabia and Yemen and Bahrain and insist on similar with the remaining degenerate monarchists in the Middle East.
One less religious fanatic in the world -which can only be a good thing .
How many of you have seen the film “Charlies War’?
For those that did not it detailed how US politicians backed, supported and armed Islamic ‘Freedom Fighters’ in Afghanistan against the then secular Government in Kabul. The us was so intent on blooding the Soviet nose and humiliating them internationally that no one said
” hold on a minute here, these Islamic ‘Freedom Fighters’ are fanatics, next to Communism they hate Western Christian powers and have a heritage of this hate ( with good reason) from the Crusades to contemporary Palestine issues. Should we be arming and training these guys in terrorism, what happens when the Soviets leave, these fighters are not going to go away you know ? ”
Has everybody forgotten that at 9/11 there were enough of Ben Laden’s close relatives living in the States to make up a large commercial passenger plain load when they were hastily rounded up and shuttled out without any official CIA / FBI. interview. All mention of the financial and other close links between the Bush Senior family, their crony power golden circle and the Ben Laden family with their links to Islamic fundamentalists was brushed under the carpet and not spoken of.
Ben Laden would have been just another ineffectual warlord in Afghanistan who was not particularly wanted there by the locals, had not the US build himself and his followers up to the international figure he became in the ‘Charlies War’ period, to use in their Geo/ Political power struggles with the then USSR. It was a shortsighted, stupid official States policy in which they sowed the proverbial wind and reaped the whirlwind.
Ben Laden may have been a fanatic, but he was also a very resourceful, capable man with considerable financial resources at his disposal to accomplish his aims. He also knew and had probably well prepared for the termination of his life in circumstances such as transpired. So alternative GHQ, Chain of Command and business as usual as far as his cells are concerned. The account of his final moments that will ring round the Islamic World are not the White House accounts with replete with ‘ female human shields’ and helicopter ‘technical failure’ but a heroic martyrs death narrative that will inspire even more attacks on the West.
If the predictable sources crowing about his death here on slugger were incapable of understanding or appreciating from our own recent, Irish Six County Insurgency, that one man’s terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, who is perceived quite different by his or her own side, then the lessons of Afghanistan can hardly be expected to register.
Presuming that Ben laden had taken steps for continuity for a time when he was no longer around, then far from being weakened, the Islamic Fundamentalist Movement will be even more inspired and stronger, not weaker in the short term and his killing may have more symbolic meaning than actual curtailment of the organization that he left behind.
As to Pakistan, the nearby military complex etc. I already referred to what is happening in this country recently on another thread post comment, as yet another example of International hypocrisy as any literate person with an ongoing interest in International politics know well. Paki Intel is working hand in glove with Islamic Fundamentalists and have been for decades for their own geo/political reasons, despite the heavy financial subsidies from the US and other Western powers.
There are far deeper issues here than can be dealt with in a few predictable sound bites exulting in Ben Ladens death. As unfortunately ‘The West’ will soon find, the man is dead but the fundamentalist cause that he lived for and served is still very much alive !
Everyone knows that the Americans fed and trained the beast. So what, its still a beast and his demise merely proves the old adage: Do not bite the hand that feeds you.
Well done to Obama for not letting his ‘liberal bent’ get in the way of a good old-fashioned assassination.
That piece of deceased filth forfeited any ‘rights’ he had when he chose to hijack civilian planes and fly them into civilian buildings. The only shame is that it took so long to kill him, and that he had that time to do more evil in the world. Fortunately, however, his time for organising evil is now at an end.
AGlassofWhine
‘Mr Mugabe was at a little shindig in Rome on Sunday,despite a European travel ban. Nobody, (not on here anyway ) took the slightest notice ?
I saw that and noted the fact . The ‘wedding’ drowned out that news item .
‘It seems Rome still wields are fair bit of power in Europe.
Maybe Special Forces should have been deployed to Rome,en route to Pak
SFAIK the Vatican must have given their permission for the Jesuit educated Mugabe to attend the beatification ceremonies for the Polish Pope John Paul II . There is no airport in Vatican City so one has to assume that Berlusconi’s government must have known that Mugabe was on his way ? Berlusconi barely rates above Mugabe in the megalomaniac and political looters league table anyway 🙁
One would think that at the very least ALL European Governments would condemn the Vatican and the Italian Prime Minister for permitting the attendance at a religious ceremony in Rome of a tyrant who has the blood of tens of thousands of his own countrymen on his hands and who has ruled over a regime which has destroyed his country and caused one third (some 5 million people ) to flee beyond it’s borders . Slobodan Milosevic were he alive or Pol Pot or Gaddaffi probably have less blood on their hands 🙁
no doubt the real reason for Mugabe’s visit was to meet ‘representatives ‘ of whichever Swiss bank he’s stacked his billions in -to sign a few papers or to update his will enabling his heirs and family to inherit the billions stolen from Zimbabwe over the past 30 years of his reign .
Perhaps the Vatican Bank may have been of ‘assistance ‘ for a fee of course as always .It would not surprise me in the least 🙁 The Jesuits love cash -always have as anyone who ever contemplated sending their kids to a Jesuit College should know 🙁 Never mind Jesus Christ just the thickness of the wad of cash will do nicely thank you 🙁
Was Bin Laden a cult or will his ideas outlive him?
When Hitler committed suicide, Nazi Germany collapsed. All the plans laid for terrorism collapsed as well, as if a veil had been lifted from the German population and they realised what they had done. Hitler was a cult and it died with him.
The IRA and the UVF are not cults. Leaders come and go. The ideas march on.
It will be a while before we know if Bin Laden was a blip in history. He must have been rattled when he found the mass street demonstrations in the Arab Spring demanding… democracy rather than his version of Islam. Hetherefore had already lost the argument with the young who have made up their own minds and shown far greater bravery than the suicidal stooges he recruited.
Whilst gloating over a death is not pleasant, in some cases it’s understandable. Ghadaffi now knows his time is coming.
Munster
A very,VERY bad man is dead. Al Qaeda will replace him,but there is no doubt this is a serious blow to their cause !!
As I said earlier,I shed no tear over his execution !!
Sure,there will be more atrocities committed in the coming weeks/months/years……hardly a startling prediction .
Top Bogeyman is dead. Another will be along shortly to take his place. Meantime hold hands with Rory,and console each other on your terrible loss.
@Greenflag,
Based on what you write I would guess we share some similar positions regarding US foriegn policy.
No arguements here.
I peronally have no sympathy for Bin laden however I do not agree with the triumphant scenes over his death. I don’t know why it just sickens me a little.
Alias ,
Fortunately, however, his time for organising evil is now at an end.
True .
Regrettably others still avoid prosecution like this piece of filth and many others of his ilk who are still being kept out of jail 🙁
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/14/goldman-financial-crisis-prosecution_n_848994.html
Forty intensively trained very heavily armed special forces wearing night vision equipment with helicopter support as air cover, satellite spy-cams in space, silent intel drones in the air and up to 60 civilian dressed NSA operatives on the ground at arm length as back-up got involved in a pitched fire-fight with a teenager, a 60 year old man 6 women and a 54 year old on a kidney dialysis machine.
Fuck me that was a bit of a mis-match wasn’t it.
But what to hell I’ll bet they all get lovely shinny medals for it and take the heaped praise for stopping a dangerous terrorist network. I’ll also bet they will probably never see the irony of it all as they go back to bombing women and children from 20,000 feet or from a sub-marine a 1,000 miles away.
“War is a rich mans terrorism…… terrorism is a poor mans war”
@Munsterview
The movie was actually based on the exploits of one of our Scots-Irish decendants down in Texas. His name was Senator Charlie Wilson and the movie was called “Charlie Wilson’s War”. He attended Sam Houston High School, Sam Houston being another great Scots-Irish guy. Good movie and a true story (with the usual Hollywood literary license). Philip Seymor Hoffman was excellent as the CIA operative.
I agree the laws of unintended consequences certainly played a part in our Afghan dealings. We armed the rebels only for them to become skilled enemy. These events probably color O’Bama’s position with regard to Eastern Libya today.
It is impossible to feel sorry when a mass-murderer gets whacked and I believe America was well within its rights to do so. It was a settling of accounts and a symbolic act. It doesn’t solve the problem of Islamic militancy but in the long run it makes it easier to solve. Perhaps it will be easier now to do a deal with the Taliban and get out of Afghanistan. What would be the point of the war now?
‘I do not agree with the triumphant scenes over his death. I don’t know why it just sickens me a little.’
People everywhere tend to personalise ‘evil ‘ . Stalin , Hitler , Milosevic , Pol Pot etc etc etc . It’s a lot easier to forgive the few Americans or Brits or others who may have overdone some ‘triumphalism ‘ than it is forgive the ‘religious fanatics ‘ of all religions bar none who presume to know the mind of a God which none of them have ever seen and use their presumptions to tell the rest of us how to live and who will be saved and who won’t and who will gnash their teeth in hell and who will enjoy 72 virgins or a ringside seat beyond the pearly gates 🙁
Overall most Americans will I believe be relieved that justice has prevailed in this instance . They know that this ‘execution ‘ will be a blow to Al Quaeda but moreover if the USA moves quickly to support the genuine ‘democratic’ forces now rising across the Middle East and the Maghreb -instead of acting as second fiddle to Israeli dictates in the region then the outcome for the entire region can be a win win for all sides -even for the Israelis and the Iranians .
usa
“Based on what you write I would guess we share some similar positions regarding US foriegn policy.
No arguements here.
”
Ummmm sorry,but wern’t you the one whooping and cheering earlier ?
USA ,
‘Based on what you write I would guess we share some similar positions regarding US foreign policy.’
Probably -unfortunately those who have been directing USA foreign policy these past couple of decades with a few notable exceptions -have been making a dogs breakfast of it .
We live in hope that the USA will return to it’s democratic roots and the principles on which that great nation was built -and away from the sterile stupidity of those politicians of all parties who favour the few over the many and who are prepared to sacrifice the USA’s middle classes on the altar of capitalist expediency and a daft extremist right wing ideology 🙁
Next up hopefully the USA’s war on the ‘financial ‘ terrorists ‘ of Wall St and the CEO’s and top executives of the avaricious and irresponsible banks who have been holding a gun to the heads of both Bush and Obama and even Clinton -forcing all of the former to do as they were bid by the ‘banks’ 🙁
Now if Obama were to send in his special forces to clean out Wall St his re-election would not be in doubt probably with the biggest majority in USA electoral history 😉
You believe all that the US says about Bin Laden is true, then?
@AGlassOfHine
Yep, that was me. That f****r has been a dead man walking since 9/11. I’m just surprised it took this long to get him. Clinical operation by the Special Forces. 🙂
However this does not mean I agree with US foreign policy in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine etc. 🙁 It just means I am happy America made it’s point today, and proud of the Special Forces who delivered the message to the dead f**k head then dumped his body in the ocean.
US Special Forces – taking care of business 🙂
MainstreamU… : ” The contrast with liberal attitudes to security force anti-terror operations in Northern Ireland is striking (e.g. the hand-wringing over the killings of the IRA team in Gibraltar, outrage at a possible “shoot to kill” policy, etc)…..”
Britain is supposed to be a democratic country operating under the rule of local and International law ? If so certain rules apply including innocent until proven guilty, due process etc and all these other things that are supposed to make a civilized, lawful State different from terrorism.
In Gibraltar the Security forces could have taken these Irish Republican Army members alive, instead there was a decision made to assassinate them just the same as the same Crown Forces in an earlier period made a decision to assassinate Cork Cities democratically elected Lord Mayor, Thomas McCurtain in his bed in the presence of his wife.
The British Government made the same decision for reasons in keeping with General Frank Kitson’s gospel to assassinate those Irish Republican Army members just the same as it did to inflict the Bloody Sunday massacre on the Derry and Nationalist community. True democracies respecting the ‘Rule Of Law’ do not do not and should not behave like that.
This was supposed to be what the Numenburg trials were about, irrespective of how brutal the crimes committed by operatives of the Nazi State were, these people were not summarily executed, they stood trial, the evidence was presented against them and these criminals had a defense council. Even after conviction there was no ‘rush to the gallows’ or conveyor belt style execution, all civilized norms were applied including the execution procedure. This was to show that democracy had a superior value system based on the tenets of Western Christianity over a toleration system.
However I am not one bit surprised by your attitude, it is the constant demand of the Planter stock all through Irish Occupation history demanding the Crown wipe out the Natives whenever armed resistance manifested. When the war was over then we had things such as the ten thousand females of all ages from infants to fit grandmothers rounded up in Munster and shipped out to the West Indies and American English Colonialists as sex slaves who ranked ever lower in value to African slaves.
In other posts I have cited own English sources of some of the abuse of these unfortunate women where they were flogged on the least excuse and forced to work naked in the scorching sun on their hands and knees weeding in which position, to quote English sources, they were frequently taken (raped) from behind by mixed race overseers.
Little chance of appealing to the Christianity of the Masters either since the one of the Protestant Anglican Bishops had himself eight-hundred slaves worked in similar circumstances in his estates and no doubt more than one red haired lass to share his bed ! He was also one of the most strident defenders and apologists for the concept of slavery in his historical period.
You do indeed have a fine heritage and historical legacy to preach morality from, as part of your Unionist planter culture on this island and especially so given the world wide consequences of the actions of your ancestors for the Native Irish !
“You do indeed have a fine heritage and historical legacy to preach morality from, as part of your Unionist planter culture on this island and especially so given the world wide consequences of the actions of your ancestors for the Native Irish !”
Everything reduced to the same neverending sectarian rant.
socaire
Do you think it possible that Bin Laden is not as dead as the US claims? after all they had known of his compound/prison for years. The disposal of the body could be described as hasty, and its approaching the next presidential campaign, and there are more things under heaven?
I think he is dead.If he were not his outraged denials would be flooding the world.
MV. ‘You do indeed have a fine heritage and historical legacy to preach morality from’…. remind us again what scout brigade you where an ‘insider’ with?
catweazel, I wasn’t referring to his death but to the personality hate cult which opponents build up to justify his ‘execution’. There is only US propaganda to ‘justify’ this. Funny enough, the person who ordered the zapping of Hiroshima etc. came out of it alright. He managed a few more than 3000 victims. To the victor the spoils.
Lets not get carried away by idle speculation. We don’t know the specific orders given to the Special Forces team and may never be told the whole story. Bin Laden may have been killed in a fair fight or he may have been murdered. The people in the aircraft and those on the ground on 9/11 weren’t given any chance. I would have preferred him to have been captured and put on trial despite the huge problems that would have caused. Still, the majority of people, including many moslems, will be glad that he is gone.
socaire
Is it a cult?. The man is hated (dead or alive) and there are good reasons for that. 9/11 was not his first atrocity it was, as far as the US is concerned his worst and he was not only willing to accept responsibility for so many deaths, he was eager.
JAH : “Everything reduced to the same neverending sectarian rant….”
Or a reminder to people in moral glass houses to remember where they came from before they casually throw stones around the place !
This is part of the stark reality of the total history on this Island, a history of my people that Gaelic culture remembers in it’s entirety and is more complete than the colonialists selective abstracts of it, which are usually non factual anyway.
This accounts may make repugnant reading but if so it is because the narrative records and recalls absolutely horrific events.
Ironic your choice of words …..” the same neverending sectarian rant….” as this is a far more apt discription of mainstream Unionist narrative against their majority Catholic / Nationalist population on this island until the relativly recent past.
Between… : “…….. what scout brigade you where an ‘insider’ with?…”
Sorry, cannot help you in that one, never in any scouts !
MV ‘ Or a reminder to people in moral glass houses to remember where they came from before they casually throw stones around the place’ any chance of practicing what you preach?
Executive Order 12333 prohibits political assassination by the US intelligence services, so the president, contrary to popular myth, has no authority to order or authorise assassination. He can, of course, amend an Executive Order since he is the Executive. That was amended by Clinton and then by Bush to allow the intelligence services to covertly kill those suspected of terrorist offences.
Article 51 of the UN Charter and customary international law allows a state the right of self-defence, so killing a terrorist who has attacked a state is legal self-defense.
That said, the claim will be made that Bin Laden was killed in self-defence by the opperatives sent to ‘arrest’ him rather than in an act of assassination, so the terrorist sympathizers and America-haters will just have to suck it up.
“If the predictable sources crowing about his death here on slugger were incapable of understanding or appreciating from our own recent, Irish Six County Insurgency, that one man’s terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, who is perceived quite different by his or her own side, then the lessons of Afghanistan can hardly be expected to register.’
Just like your beloved Provos, Bid Ladens organization has killed more (actually FAR more) of his fellow religionists than he did of the enemy.
then they* have of the enemy.
“He was the greatest ever player, a definite inclusion for the hall of fame” latest press release from the Hide and Go Seek association.
Between : “…any chance of practicing what you preach?…”
Not preaching or claiming high ground, merely pointing out the contradictions and hypocrisy in certain stances !
Alias : more of the double standards and hypocrisy ?
Were the Pakistani authorities consulted about the strike or did they agree to it.
If not, as I suspect ( for the obvious reason that Paki Intel was working hand in glove with Ben Laden) then the security and sovereign of an independent country and member of the UN was unilaterally breached.
If so that was also a breach of international law such the Israeli government are regularly guilty of in relation to their own neighbors.
But paraphrase your good self, the UN and the World will just have to suck that up !
Ah Bin Laden’s dead the bogeyman is gone and we can all sleep in our beds but like friday the 13th part x he will exact revenge on some nation and we’ll all see the finger pointing at the only Arab nation they haven’t invaded yet Iran, the new bogeymen on the block.
“If so that was also a breach of international law such the Israeli government are regularly guilty of in relation to their own neighbors.”
That is simply your own ignorance of said international law. Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations states that “Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations…”
Bin Laden organised an “armed attack” against “a Member of the United Nations” and said member duly exercised its right to “collective self-defence” to override the other rights stated in the Charter since “nothing in the present Charter shall impair” that “inherent right of individual or collective self-defence.”
Terrorists groups such as Al Qaeda and Hamas who attack states forfeit their rights since the right to self-defence of those states takes precedence over them.
That is why America and Israel do not violate international law by killing those who have attacked them.
Get it now?
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
What a tired and thoroughly discredited phrase. Its been used for years, especially by those terrorist loving Americans who have spent the last several years mourning the rewards of their love of ‘freedom fighters’.
Bit of a waste of a post that, pippakin.
Nun
I know. but I hate the bloody phrase. Its such a cop out!
Just a few numbers for reflection, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have cost nearly 9,000 US, Contractor and other coalition forces lives to date with over 33,000 wounded.
They have also cost at least 100,000 deaths of innocent Iraqi civilians, (Estimates range from 110,000 to 600,000 with most around 130,000)
There were 136 journalists and 51 media support workers killed in Iraq alone.
When you start to trawl through the figures to try to come up with a total cost for this mans life in terms of lives and money the mind boggles.
I should have known…………………………It was all the Brits fault,so it was,so it was,like………………………
Actually aul Osama could be credited with bringing pira into the peace process. On the morning of 9/11,gerry and marty knew the game was up. No more US $’s to sponsor terrorism !!
usa……..did you cheer as much when cowardly pira terrorists,were sent a wee message by the Security Forces,or is that somehow different ?
muster……I have heard some pretty sad MOPEry in my time boy,but that takes the biscuit,wrapper,tin and all !!
Why so sad over the demise of a self confessed mass murderer,yet go ape shit on the Bill Craig thread ??
* shakes head,and smirks * 😉
pippakin
Indeed; it’s beyond parody nowadays, almost always a bad sign in anyone making a conscious choice to deploy it in argument.
“Out there, beyond the foliage, you see herds of clichés, roaming free”.
I agree that it is a worry but as far as I know, there is no confirmation that those were indeed the orders and objective of the mission and unless you know otherwise you are only offering your own guess and stating it as fact.
There were 40 SEALs and something like five people in that compound (going by the bodycount). I’m sure they could have figured out a way to avoid killing him if they wanted to. They’ve been watching this place for years, by now they must have figured out the routine.
Here’s a video of Bill Clinton talking of how he authorized the CIA to kill Bin Laden (Executive Order bedamned). While this does not prove that Obama gave an assassination order, it at least shows that there is no question that it is appropriate to do so.
This wasn’t an ordinary criminal. This wasn’t someone of which there was any doubt as to his involvement in terrorist activities. There was absolutely no virtue to arresting him and placing him on trial.
We don’t put people on trial because someone thinks there is “virtue”. We do it because we believe that having a fair trial is an essential prerequisite to justice.
It wouldn’t serve to defend the rule of law and order and it most certainly would not harm it. Application of those rules is never black and white and always depends on circumstance.
When did that become the case ? The US constitution along with various others mandates a fair trial for everyone. Not “depending on circumstance”.
For me, there was little option for the forces assigned to this task. There was absolutely no chance OBL would ever allow himself to be taken alive and faced with killing him or risking him escaping, the most sensible choice was taken.
If it had come to that and the guy would have committed suicide, that would have been that (and, of course, he would have lost some of his “martyr” kudos). Otherwise I find it very hard to believe that the SEALs did not have that compound secured to the extent where escape would have been impossible; moreover, this was a man whom we know ten years ago was undergoing regular kidney dialysis in Pakistan and who was shown on videos hobbling around on a walking stick – clearly this was someone who was far from healthy or fit so it’s very hard to believe that he’d have gotten anywhere fast.
There is no mistake about it, the SEALs were there to shoot to kill, and they shot at least one (female) civilian dead as well in the process.
Brian:
Now tell me that the Pakistani government, or at least important parts of it, wasn’t shielding him.
The ISI (Pakistani intelligence) has connections with AQ and were involved in the 9/11 attacks, at least at arm’s length. Notable is that the Americans chose to perform this operation themselves – they didn’t want the ISI tipping OBL off. So clearly they had plenty of grounds to suspect that it would be better to keep the Pakistan authorities in the dark.
I wouldn’t be surprised also that they allowed this operation to be carried out, and maybe even offered up bin Laden after all these years, in order to shore up their anti-terror bona fides and keep the aid money flowing from Washington.
The conspiracy may not stretch that far; an unauthorized American incursion of this nature may be difficult for their leaders to explain away.
AGlass : “muster……I have heard some pretty sad MOPEry in my time boy,but that takes the biscuit,wrapper,tin and all !!
Why so sad over the demise of a self confessed mass murderer,yet go ape shit on the Bill Craig thread ??
First off if memory serves me right The late Bill Craig RIP got something like eighty posts and not one of them mine, I thought it better to sit that one as Mick was tossing out cards like snuff at a wake !
Second I expressed no feelings good, bad or indifferent about the late Ben Laden, peace be upon him, I only detailed the circumstances of his rise to International prominence in the situation as glorified and celebrated in the ‘Charlie’s War’ film. I just pointed out that the US created a terrorist Frankinistine that they lost control of.
For the record I am opposed to Ben Landen’s brand of Islam and that Saudi Arabia’s brand of anti-feminine fundamentalism it is a intrinsic part of.
That is why America and Israel do not violate international law by killing those who have attacked them.
Attacked them? As Ben-Gurion himself admitted twas Zionism who is the aggressor in the I/P conflict. Every unsavoury act of terror committed by Palestinian groups can be traced back to zionisms/Israel’s original aim and sin. A sin it continues to commit to this day. Also bearing in mind that Israel routinely breaks ceasefires, yet the rockets which follow in response are magically labeled the instigator of violence by western MSM.
To boil it down to who attacks America is again ignoring the very simple reality that as a world superpower, International Law will never find the US guilty. To use International law as a prism to decide whether or not the US is guilty of crimes, of attacking others is naive and ignores the very way in which the world turns. To think that the US was justified in attacking Afghanistan raises the utter hypocrisy upon which the neo-imperialist defenders saddle themselves. If that is the case, the US is therefore a legitimate target of god knows how many countries from Latin America and SE Asia. I doubt those waving the stars and stripes will afford the same logic they cheered on the pummeling of Afghanistan, to a Cuban attack on the US for habouring all those terrorists in Miami.
Chris Hedges has an interesting take on recent events..
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/chris_hedges_speaks_on_osama_bin_ladens_death_20110502/
Charlie Wilsons War……….it has been pointed out before.
You may remember WWII ? We armed,fed,supported Comrade Stalin ? So what ? One day you are an ally,the next you are Public Enemy Number One.
Tell you what,for someone with no axe to grind over the execution of this self confessed mass murderer,you are sure doing a lot of whinging about it !!
re The Bill Craig Thread…….I didn’t actually go and check my facts there,so I apologise for accusing you in the wrong.
The West created Bin Laden,then he went rouge. He has been brought to heel today.
His actions across the world had an unequal,yet opposite reaction ! He should have known there would be consequences.
Tonight he sleeps with the fishes,and I don’t really care much whether he had a chance to surrender or not. After all,how many prisoners did pira,his fellow travellers in terror take ?
What sympathy did Osama show to the people he had beheaded,with a knife,live online ?
The world is one religious fanatic short tonight. I lose no sleep over that !!
Our republican friends seem less than happy with todays news ??
Ho hum,I guess they will just have to live with it. 😉
As much as the bleeding heart liberal in me wants to object to what basically amounted to an assassination the pragmatist in me realises that after 9/11 there was never really going to be any other ending than this.
What I do find distasteful is the flag waving singing crowds, not only is a death never something which should be celebrated, it is just fuel to the fire for those who wish to radicalise young Muslims.
As much as the Americans aren’t exactly known for their dignity, surely even they could realise that a slightly more stayed response to this would have sent a much better message to the world?
Our republican friends seem less than happy with todays news
I think the jingoistic troglodytes could do with a history lesson.
The need for that aside, whilst not a believer, the fairytale contains some noble words…
“As surely as I live, says the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people” – Ezekiel 33:11
Clanky
“the Americans aren’t exactly known for their dignity”. Excuse me ?
A few more navy seals deployed to sort out those who want to radicalize deluded young muslims wouldn’t be a bad move for humanity.
This is form another site : may be appropiate for the thread!
Statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception.
Mark Twain, Chronicle of Young Satan.
A few more navy seals deployed to sort out those who want to radicalize deluded young muslims wouldn’t be a bad move for humanity.
Indeed , why the fuck even bother to address some of the underlying reasons why the youth of the muslim street are encouraged and entinced to the muslim basement, where those who don’t have the balls to go for their own 72 virgins, indoctrinate them.
Yeah best to stand with weapon cocked at the end of the production line, who cares whats behind the curtain.
The fairytale includes a LOT of noble words……
He who lives by the sword…………………
An eye for an eye………………..
etc,etc,etc,
I feel the republican pain,on the death of a fellow terrorist,I really do. ( 😉 ) But wouldn’t you be better reserving your sympathies for the 10’s of 1,000’s of innocents this religious fanatic is responsible for ??
Lets have the history lesson,only without the playground jibes. Play the ball,old chap. Play the ball…………………
The fairytale includes a LOT of noble words…
Actually they aren’t noble, undoubtedly the sections out of that book the recently deceased would have liked
But wouldn’t you be better reserving your sympathies for the 10′s of 1,000′s of innocents this religious fanatic is responsible for ??
have you a link to that estimated figure? And why should we only mourn those killed by religious nutters? Seems you seek to absolve certain govts from their positively higher tolls.
I really can’t wait till somebody tries the THUFWWR argument.
Republican Stones
“why the fuck even bother to address some of the underlying reasons why the youth of the muslim street are encouraged and entinced to the muslim basement”
The cry of the horrendously oppressed sharia-denied western muslim ? Deprived of their right to stone adulterers, kill non-muslims, bestow chattelhood upon women, slay homosexuals, restore the caliphate – all those kind of grievances you mean ? Oh aye, we should all hang our heads in shame right enough.
Isn’t it edifying to see supporters of terrorists get all uppity and righteous (some even driven tear-filled despair to quote holy scripture) whenever one of their own dies by the sword (a verse not quoted)? Thank you Tim Berners-Lee for making such priceless moments possible…
Nun
“Out there, beyond the foliage, you see herds of clichés, roaming free”.
I know the above but can’t place it. Its not Pratchett is it? Help, its driving med nuts!
The cry of the horrendously oppressed sharia-denied western muslim ? Deprived of their right to stone adulterers, kill non-muslims, bestow chattelhood upon women, slay homosexuals, restore the caliphate – all those kind of grievances you mean ? Oh aye, we should all hang our heads in shame right enough.
Clowns response. And merely the other side of the coin from those in the middle east you dislike who imagine us all to be godless (correct in my case) heathens, driven by desire for materialism and sex. like i said, a clowns response.
To try and think that the actions of western govts, particularly the US, in the middle east, have not fostered deep seated anger among many in the arab/muslim world, is typical of a certain war mongering mindset we have yet to excise here in Europe. As you are quite clearly unaware of the analogy of the arab/muslim street/basement. i refer to you to Thomas Friedman’s (hardly a wimpy liberal anti-zionist pawn) articulation of what is Jordanian journalist Rami Khouri’s analysis.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/23/opinion/under-the-arab-street.html
I have mentioned this reality a few times over the years on Slugger. But the gung ho twats must have spent too much time on the range without hearing protection.
If your’re interested in learning instead of projecting, try this
http://www.amazon.com/Why-They-Dont-Hate-Us/dp/1851683658/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
Nice link RS, jugurthine is a new one for me. Governments should be seen to have a morality. Who’s next? Why not Gadaffi? Slightly harder target than someone with liver damage, but worth the effort. Maybe Thatcher, she’s not well at the minute, should be a breeze.
I’ve a dossier on my boss says he has WMD. Where do I send it?
“some even driven tear-filled despair to quote holy scripture”
Nice imagination, unfortunately with regard to your affiliation and support of a certain state and ideology, its a bit rich to accuse others of supporting terrorism.
And ‘one of their own’?
I didn’t realise i was from Saudi Arabia.
Look,they tried to shoot him in the head to stun him,and take him prisoner. Unfortunately,this head wound proved fatal. Go figure.
Give it a few Months,the Holey Papa will be bestowing Sainthood on this much maligned,misunderstood figure.
Meanwhile,the indignation emanating from our republican minded friends,is highly amusing.
😉
“To try and think that the actions of western govts, particularly the US, in the middle east, have not fostered deep seated anger among many in the arab/muslim world, is typical of a certain war mongering mindset we have yet to excise here in Europe.”
This flawed mentality is the product of self-justifying parochialism. It holds that people are ‘driven’ to randomly murder other people because the state has someone failed them. That is classic Shinner revisionism wherein the state is to blame for the sectarian murder camapign in NI, and not those who carried it out or supported it. If the state had given the catholics free houses at the expense of those who earned and paid their taxes then they wouldn’t have been ‘driven’ by the state to murder randomly.