“Adams and the forces of the British Crown in Ireland are entirely united…”

Whilst Malachi’s article was mostly directed at the northern incarnation of Sinn Féin, in the Scotsman Kevin Toolis focuses on the southern version.

As far as the Sinn Féin leadership is concerned, Ireland’s Troubles are old news from another country that they hope everyone else will forget about. Skeletons that should remain in the closet.

Sinn Féin president Gerry Adams, newly minted as a deputy at the head of a substantial bloc in the new Irish parliament, is intent on winning the hearts and minds of a new, almost foreign electorate – the southern Irish.

In 2007, Mr Adams was widely seen as being an alien Northern Irish politician who had little real understanding of southern politics or culture. And in the election of that year the party lost one of its five Dail seats.

However, Ireland’s economic crisis has proved to be Sinn Féin’s opportunity. With 14 seats, it now rivals the 20-seat rump of the traditional Fianna Fail ruling party, and is seeking to entirely re-engineer its political aura away from the blood-soaked past of the Provisional IRA.

In public, Mr Adams continues to deny he ever was a member of the IRA.

That is part of wider political strategy that recognises Sinn Féin’s future lies inside the boundaries of the current Irish Republic.

Instead, Sinn Féin wants to be seen as a squeaky-clean, left-of-centre political brand untainted by the endemic “brown envelope” political culture of either Fine Gael or Fianna Fail that led to Ireland’s current state of bankruptcy.

However, Sinn Féin’s skeletons cannot remain undisturbed as long as new young Catholic policemen continue to be killed in the North.

The unfinished war, and the implacable refusal of the dissidents to give up on their violent dream of re-unification, reminds everyone that Adams has his own blood stains, too.

For once, but for wholly different reasons, Adams and the forces of the British Crown in Ireland are entirely united in their mutual aim of bringing the killers of PSNI Constable Ronan Kerr to justice.

Read the whole thing.

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  • pippakin

    I understand that Gerry Adams has, no doubt in an effort to promote harmony and goodwill, volunteered to speak to the dissidents…that should be interesting.

  • HeinzGuderian

    Forces of The British Crown in Ireland ??? Here was me thinking Constable Kerr was MURDERED in The United Kingdom ??

    [Play the ball – edited moderator]

  • HeinzGuderian

    I would hazard a guess,the *dissidents* are mostly former colleagues,of El Beardo !!

  • Dec

    ‘In 2007, Mr Adams was widely seen as being an alien Northern Irish politician who had little real understanding of southern politics or culture. ‘

    Sorry, but that’s just bullshit.

    ‘The unfinished war, and the implacable refusal of the dissidents to give up on their violent dream of re-unification, reminds everyone that Adams has his own blood stains, too.’

    Didn’t stop him topping the poll in Louth, or SF trippling their representation. Maybe the Irish people are moving on a lot quicker than Kevin, Malachi and the rest.

  • “Sinn Féin’s skeletons cannot remain undisturbed” .. Toolis

    But who will be permitted to disturb them? Anne Travers spoke from the heart when she reminded RTE listeners what the PRM had done to her sister: “They shot her in the back like animals and left her to die on a dirty dusty road”. Even had she spoken before the election I think it’s most unlikely that Ireland’s electorate would have paid much heed.

    “Sinn Féin wants to be seen as a squeaky-clean, left-of-centre political brand untainted by the endemic “brown envelope” political culture” .. Toolis

    Are the cronyism and other shenanigans associated with Conor Murphy and his political associates during the course of the NI Water fiasco so very different from Ireland’s gombeen political culture?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    There is so much wrong with the article that it should prove an embarrassment to the author.

    Is the author stating with all seriousness that there is a conspiracy of silence around the past activities of leading lights in SF?
    Time after time after time allegations against the SF leadership get a regular outing, you could hardly call ‘undisturbed skeletons in the cupboard’.

    It is refreshing that one so far removed from the actual day to day lives of the people here has such insight into what SF leaders really believe and want.

  • Alias

    “brown envelope”

    The Shinner version is the “black plastic bag.”

  • “allegations against the SF leadership get a regular outing”

    A few comments on a blog or in a newspaper are unlikely to stampede the authorities in London and Dublin into removing the immunity certificates from ‘good’ Loyalist and Republican paramilitaries. I can point out untruths that have escaped from Ministerial lips but the reaction is not likely to be anything more than irritation.

  • Neil

    As far as the Sinn Féin leadership is concerned, Ireland’s Troubles are old news from another country that they hope everyone else will forget about. Skeletons that should remain in the closet.

    Sinn Fein hope that NI’s troubles will be forgotten about? That would explain the monuments all over Republican areas in the North. And the various commemorations. In fact if anything the Shinners have been criticised for being too focussed on remembering the past. So we start with a little slice of bullshit backed up by nothing.

    Sinn Féin president Gerry Adams, newly minted as a deputy at the head of a substantial bloc in the new Irish parliament, is intent on winning the hearts and minds of a new, almost foreign electorate – the southern Irish.

    Well, Gerry clearly has done as much as he’s likely to in terms of winning hearts and minds – topping the poll as he did. What more can he do, stand in two seats at once? And they are most certainly not foreign, not in Gerry’s view nor that of any other Republican.

    In 2007, Mr Adams was widely seen as being an alien Northern Irish politician who had little real understanding of southern politics or culture. And in the election of that year the party lost one of its five Dail seats.

    But actually increased it’s vote marginally. Would it be too much for our author to back up any of his many assertions with some kind of proof? Why does he think Gerry doesn’t get Irish culture I wonder? Given his outstanding result in the election one might assume he understood ok. Maybe this is all just wishful thinking, stubbornly ignoring Gerry’s success in the South? Seems like it.

    However, Ireland’s economic crisis has proved to be Sinn Féin’s opportunity. With 14 seats, it now rivals the 20-seat rump of the traditional Fianna Fail ruling party, and is seeking to entirely re-engineer its political aura away from the blood-soaked past of the Provisional IRA. In public, Mr Adams continues to deny he ever was a member of the IRA.

    Again with the un backed up claims. Why do you say they are trying to ‘entirely re-engineer it’s political aura away from the blood soaked past of the PIRA’? Because Mr Adams claims not to have been in the RA? But he’s claimed that all along. So not really any change there then.

    Either Gerry’s denials mean he was trying to re-engineer the IRA’s aura from it’s blood soaked past since about 1970 or he’s not actually trying to re-engineer anything. So more unproven hypotheticals based on wishful thinking then.

    That is part of wider political strategy that recognises Sinn Féin’s future lies inside the boundaries of the current Irish Republic.

    Any proof of that either? No? Thought not. Again the wishful thinking comes into play, telling SF what their strategy is. From a Unionist point of view. How useful.

    Instead, Sinn Féin wants to be seen as a squeaky-clean, left-of-centre political brand untainted by the endemic “brown envelope” political culture of either Fine Gael or Fianna Fail that led to Ireland’s current state of bankruptcy.

    Correct, and succesfully achieving this. Surely that’s a good thing?

    However, Sinn Féin’s skeletons cannot remain undisturbed as long as new young Catholic policemen continue to be killed in the North.

    Why link the two? Not to be mean spirited about things, but to be honest I would imagine that young policemen could continue to be killed by the dozen and it wouldn’t impact on ‘Sinn Fein’s skeletons’.

    The unfinished war, and the implacable refusal of the dissidents to give up on their violent dream of re-unification, reminds everyone that Adams has his own blood stains, too.

    Nah, dissidents don’t do that, they can leave that to idiotic journalists who like to type up their own take on events, without a shred of evidence to back up their many bullshit assertions and present them as anything other than opinion.

    The inherent suggestion is that the troubles started and finished with Adams. He was like Arnie running round Ireland since the mid nineteenth centurey, killing thousands single handedly.

    But then we know that’s not true. Actually the IRA did plenty of killing, as did Loyalists and state forces, including some forerunners of other parties in the Dail for example.

    And some of the organisations that supposedly damage Adams have been around for a long time. Longer than the peace process. So now Gerry has to shoulder the responsibility of all the deaths our mucker the Tool thinks Gerry may have committed – he should shoulder all responsibility for deaths committed by the IRA in general, the security forces and Loyalists as well, and just for good measure any committed by the IRPS, CIRA, RIRA, ONH etc. etc. etc.

    For once, but for wholly different reasons, Adams and the forces of the British Crown in Ireland are entirely united in their mutual aim of bringing the killers of PSNI Constable Ronan Kerr to justice.

    For once, in this article, Toolis is correct about something.

  • Mick Fealty

    Listen lads. I dont mind a bit earthy language if you going ante with evidence for your, erm, rebuttals.

    #dec #pat

  • The Word

    “Adams and the forces of the British Crown in Ireland are entirely united in their mutual aim”

    Wouldn’t be the first time. Remember Daniel O’Connell and the Young Irelanders. And what of Pearse?

    I emphatically contend that the words of Padraig Pearse in describing the first world war that, “Such august homage was never before offered to God as this, the homage of millions of lives given gladly for love of country” mocks O’Connell’s mission, expressed in his “honorary” title, “King of the beggars”, because as all those who are concerned for the poor know, World War One, intended to be the war that ended all war, resulted in suffering of the poor on a scale never seen before, all for imperialist ends.

  • Dec

    Mick

    I employed as much evidence in my rebuttals as the author did in his arguments.

  • The article by Kevin Toolis is reasonably balanced until it gets to this bit

    “However, Sinn Féin’s skeletons cannot remain undisturbed as long as new young Catholic policemen continue to be killed in the North.”

    It seems to ignore the fact that Ireland is incredibly resiliant when it comes to turning a blind eye to scandal or skeletons in the cupboard (or in the sand if anybody wants to be graphic about it).

    Journalists and political opponents had plenty of opportunity to “pummell” Adams during the general election. Lets face it, Adams’ links with the IRA are believed as fact by the majority of the Irish population. That did nothing to prevent Sinn Fein’s advance just as the alleged gun running to the IRA plus many other scandals did not prevent Charlie Haughey from winning elections.

    Neither do the brown envelopes. I hate to say it but tribunals, such as Flood were a 5 minute wonder. If Ireland’s economy was running tickatyboo right now, corruption would pale into insignificance.

  • ranger1640

    In reading the articles and the comments in defence of Adams and the Sinn Fein project. The fact that the electorate of the Irish republic went out, notwithstanding their economic wows and sent 14 shinners into their parliament speaks volumes about that well educated and alleged compassionate electorate.

    At lest you know were you are with the shinners, despite the bodies fond in the long grass or sand and the quirky time lines around Liam Adams, the Irish electorate have got exactly the politicians that well educated and alleged compassionate electorate wanted.

  • tacapall

    “As far as the Sinn Féin leadership is concerned, Ireland’s Troubles are old news from another country that they hope everyone else will forget about. Skeletons that should remain in the closet”.

    Why do some journalists and Unionists continuously link every party member of Sinn Fein to the IRA and the IRAs past deeds when they can conviently turn a blind eye to the terrorist activities of some of the UDR colleagues of Unionist politicians, Tom Elliott, Jeffrey Donaldson, Ken Maginnis, etc, and the DUP who created their own paramilitary army who imported hundreds of weapons into the country that were then used to murder innocent people all the while, along with the UUP jumping in and out of bed with the UDA and UVF when they needed paramilitary muscle, do they forget that the UVF announced that the DUP advised them not to call a ceasefire, do they forget how many catholics were murdered using information they were given by members of the RUC, UDR and British army, do they forget how members of the RUC special branch controlled murder gangs – on both sides. This infatuation from Unionism that they are somehow morally superior and believe they can distance themselves from their associations with loyalist terrorists is beyond comprehension.

  • ranger1640

    tacapall

    “Why do some journalists and Unionists continuously link every party member of Sinn Fein to the IRA and the IRAs past deeds”!

    Because any hint to not towing the party line gets a party sanction. Like that of Francie Molloy and Billy Leonard. It seems when you join Sinn Fein you have to buy into everything bombs, woolly faces and all.

    Imagine a shinner criticizing the dear party leader, for carrying the coffin of the Shankill bomber. I don’t think so, they wouldn’t be in Sinn Fein for long.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4460636.stm
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12701030

  • tacapall

    Ranger selective memory you’ve got.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shankill_Butchers

    “The UVF gave Murphy a paramilitary funeral attended by thousands of loyalists and several unionist politicians, at which Mr A and John Murphy played prominent roles. On his gravestone in Carnmoney cemetery were inscribed the words: “Here lies a soldier”.

    The Stephen Nolan Show

    “The identity of the Shankill Butchers was widely known. Not to the RUC, according to former Chief Inspector Jimmy Nesbitt, but to journalists, lawyers and at least one-third of the Shankill population. And yet they were able to go on killing for a number of years”.

    Yeah like I said The Delusion of Superiority from Unionism is beyond belief.

  • Alf

    “Why do some journalists and Unionists continuously link every party member of Sinn Fein to the IRA and the IRAs past deeds when they can conviently turn a blind eye to the terrorist activities of some of the UDR colleagues of Unionist politicians, Tom Elliott, Jeffrey Donaldson, Ken Maginnis, etc”

    tapacall,

    Perhaps because Sinn Fein fully supports the PIRA murder campaign, and because the few rogue members of the UDR have absolutely no relevance to that.

  • tacapall

    Yes Alf did you not support the UDR and the RUC, have you forgotten the Special Branch officers who controlled the mount vernon UVF. I’ll refer you to the comment above too.

  • Alf

    “Yes Alf did you not support the UDR and the RUC, have you forgotten the Special Branch officers who controlled the mount vernon UVF. I’ll refer you to the comment above too.”

    tapacall,

    Yes I supported the UDR and RUC. They were the forces of law and order involved in protecting the community from terrorist serial killers. Why on earth would I not support them?

  • Alf

    “The identity of the Shankill Butchers was widely known. Not to the RUC, according to former Chief Inspector Jimmy Nesbitt, but to journalists, lawyers and at least one-third of the Shankill population. And yet they were able to go on killing for a number of years”.

    tapacall,

    Martin Dillon the leading expert on the Shankill Butchers says that your quote is bollocks.

  • tacapall

    He only refutes the claim that police could have done more to protect catholics. I see you have no comment to make about the RUC special branch and the funeral of Lenny Murphy. – Typical.

  • Pete Baker

    Guys

    If we could focus on the actual topic…

  • Alf

    tapacall,

    He refutes the claim that the identities of the Butchers were common knowledge.

    The RUC Special Branch along with military undercover units played a huge part in the defeat of PIRA. We shall be eternally grateful to them for the lives that have been saved since.

    What is your point about paramilitary funerals?

  • Alf

    Pete,

    Apologies. As has been pointed out Toolis’s case is weakened by the ability of the Irish electorate to vote for people who are responsible for vile crimes. Though I suspect that the Sinners have attracted about as many of them as they will ever manage to get.

  • tacapall

    “The RUC Special Branch along with military undercover units played a huge part in the defeat of PIRA. We shall be eternally grateful to them for the lives that have been saved since”.

    So colluding and controlling the murder of over a dozen innocent people including protestants saved lives – How ? Im sure you are eternally grateful to them, just like those Unionist politicans who attended Lenny Murphy’s funeral.

  • Alf

    “So colluding and controlling the murder of over a dozen innocent people including protestants saved lives – How ? Im sure you are eternally grateful to them, just like those Unionist politicans who attended Lenny Murphy’s funeral.”

    tapacall,

    Where did I say any such thing?

    The innocent lives were saved by the infiltration of PIRA from top to bottom to the extent that they were utterly paranoid about everything they tried to do. That led them to give up their campaign of violence thereby saving God only knows how many lives, but certainly hundreds.

    Why your obsession with paramilitary funerals. Are you opposed to them?

  • tacapall

    Alf are you deliberately being a dk or can you not read, im pretty sure you know that Im talking about the RUC special branch running and controlling the mount vernon UVF also known as loyalist terrorists who then went on to murder innocent people. Unionist politicians attending Lenny Murphy’s funeral was no different than Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness attending Thomas Begleys funeral.

  • ranger1640

    tacapall

    To attend 1 terrorist funeral is a mistake. To attend 2 is setting a bad example. But to be seen at every terrorist funeral is supporting terror.

  • Eire32

    “Yes I supported the UDR and RUC. They were the forces of law and order involved in protecting the community from terrorist serial killers. Why on earth would I not support them?”

    Because they were the corrupted Forces of Your law and Your order, according to almost all Nationalists and most of the planet for that matter.

    tacapall has a good point, Unionists’ seem to have suffered serious memory loss during the troubles.

    What’s up with the denials? Why avoid tacapall’s main points?

  • tacapall

    Ranger.

    In the late 1980s unionist councillors elected the PUP’s Hugh Smyth as deputy mayor, four years before the UVF’s ceasefire.

    In June 1994, Mr Smyth was elected first citizen – four months before the UVF ceasefire. In December 2000 deputy mayor Frank McCoubrey, who despite being a member of the UDA-linked UDP was elected to the post by mainstream unionist councillors, was a character witness for a man in court on attempted murder charges relating to the UDA/UVF feud.

    Unionist politicians regularly condemn loyalist violence, but contacts between the DUP, the UUP and loyalists have occurred regularly. In 1986 DUP leader Ian Paisley defended his decision to attend the wake of murdered UVF leader John Bingham. A number of other high-ranking unionist councillors attended Mr Bingham’s funeral.

    Those present when John Bingham’s coffin – draped in a UVF flag, beret and gloves – was carried from the church, included the then north Belfast MP Cecil Walker, former DUP councillor George Seawright, former UUP mayor John Carson and councillors Joe Coggle, Frank Millar and Hugh Smyth.

    A few years later a DUP councillor was jailed for his part in a UVF extortion racket. In 1993 Billy Baxter was convicted on charges of demanding money on behalf of the UVF. The North Down councillor was jailed for three and a half years for soliciting money from a Dublin businessman for the UVF.

    In September 1996 leading DUP figure William McCrea sparked controversy when he joined LVF leader Billy Wright on a public platform in Portadown. Last year DUP councillor John Smyth was elected to Antrim Borough Council. Mr Smyth had previously served a five-year sentence in the 1970s for UVF activities.

    Maybe Unionists just have selective memories.

  • ranger1640

    tacapall, you must have spent some time researching you last post.

    As I said. “To attend 1 terrorist funeral is a mistake. To attend 2 is setting a bad example. But to be seen at every terrorist funeral is supporting terror!”

  • The Word

    No defenders of Padraig Pearse this evening? Strange that?

  • tacapall

    “Saturday 10 January 1998
    item mark Terence (Terry) Enwright (28), a Catholic civilian who was a cross-community worker, was shot dead by the Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF) outside a night club in Belfast. Enwright was a highly respected community worker who, it was said, had saved scores of young people from paramilitary ‘punishment’ attacks and had steered many others away from involvement in paramilitary groups. Enwright was also married to a niece of Gerry Adams, then President of Sinn Féin (SF).
    David Ervine, then a spokesman for the Progressive Unionist Party (PUP), claimed that the Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF) was not operating alone and was receiving political direction from “seemingly respectable” politicians”.

    Ronnie Flanagan, then Chief Constable of the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC), said that he did not want RUC officers to belong to the Orange Order or any of the other loyal orders.

    The statement was made in the Channel 4 programme ‘Dispatches’.

    In the same programme a group of defence lawyers claimed that there was compelling evidence that the RUC and the British Army had been involved in “numerous” illegal killings.

    Its all on Cain if you care to read it. But for most things like this I remember with disgust the sanctimony of Unionist politicians when it came to loyalist violence.

  • Alf

    “Alf are you deliberately being a dk or can you not read, im pretty sure you know that Im talking about the RUC special branch running and controlling the mount vernon UVF also known as loyalist terrorists who then went on to murder innocent people. Unionist politicians attending Lenny Murphy’s funeral was no different than Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness attending Thomas Begleys funeral.”

    tapacall,

    You use the republican tactic of taking a bit of fact and building that up with your own fiction. We know that SB had a highly placed informer within that UVF unit. That does not equate to them running it. They also had highly placed informers within PIRA. Are you saying that SB were running the Provos?

    Thomas Begley died murdering women and children. When Lenny Murphy was murdered by the IRA he had a conviction for possessing a pistol. Therefore I would suggest that the unionist politicians you are talking about believed they were attending the funeral of a victim of terrorism, whilst El Beardo knew damned well that he was attending the funeral of a child murderer.

    Who were these unionist politicians btw?

  • Alf

    !David Ervine, then a spokesman for the Progressive Unionist Party (PUP), claimed that the Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF) was not operating alone and was receiving political direction from “seemingly respectable” politicians”.

    Tapacall,

    Dictionary Dave was an enemy of the LVF and a politician attempting to take votes from other unionist political parties. You regard him as a credible witness?

    “Ronnie Flanagan, then Chief Constable of the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC), said that he did not want RUC officers to belong to the Orange Order or any of the other loyal orders.”

    Bully for Ronnie. Your point is?

    ” In the same programme a group of defence lawyers claimed that there was compelling evidence that the RUC and the British Army had been involved in “numerous” illegal killings. ”

    Lawyers who were defending republicans perchance?

  • HeinzGuderian

    pira=60%
    *loyalists=30%
    Security Forces=10%……………of people murdered,during the dirty,little,sectarian conflict.
    Now,I’m no mathematician,but nat/rep apologists for murderous terrorists,trying to occupy the moral high ground,seems to me,to be just a tad hypocritical ?

    Wouldn’t you agree,taca ??

  • Pete Baker

    Alf

    “As has been pointed out Toolis’s case is weakened…”

    No it isn’t.

    But then comprehension is a rare commodity in the Slugger comments zone these days.

    And congratulations on your contribution to steering this discussion into yet another cul-de-sac.

    Now. If we could get back to the actual topic…

  • Alf

    “Because they were the corrupted Forces of Your law and Your order, according to almost all Nationalists and most of the planet for that matter.”

    32,

    Absolute nonsense.

  • tacapall

    Alf maybe you dont read the Belfast Telegraph, here I’ll give you some of the report.

    The Police Ombudsman’s explosive report on the murder of Raymond McCord jnr will tomorrow reveal how a notorious gang of loyalist informers were responsible for more than 15 murders.

    And Nuala O’Loan’s four-year probe into the activities of the Mount Vernon UVF will outline how the feared unit and its leader – top spy Mark Haddock – were being protected
    during their 12-year reign of terror.

    A senior security source last night told how the gang’s terrorist crimes had “shocked” the 12 investigators who produced the explosive report.

    Said the source: “When the investigators looked at Haddock and how he was handled by police, it led them to a series of terrorist incidents.

    “This investigation also looked at a number of people inside the UVF’s Mount Vernon unit and their links to the police. There were hundreds of pages of evidence and intelligence.

    They reveal how Haddock’s henchmen were responsible for a series of terror offences, including murder, attempted murder, drug-dealing, kidnapping and extortion.

    Do you watch the BBC news.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6286695.stm

    NI police colluded with killers

    Police colluded with loyalists behind over a dozen murders in north Belfast, a report by the Police Ombudsman of Northern Ireland has confirmed.

    Nuala O’Loan’s report said UVF members in the area committed murders and other serious crimes while working as informers for Special Branch.

    It said two retired assistant chief constables refused to cooperate with the investigation.

    Special Branch officers gave the killers immunity, it said.

    The officers ensured the murderers were not caught and even “baby-sat” them during police interviews to help them avoid incriminating themselves.

    The Special Branch officers “created false notes” and blocked searches for UVF weapons.

    Responding to the report, Chief Constable Sir Hugh Orde offered an apology to the victims’ families.

  • Alf

    Pete,

    Thank you for the congratulations, but I feel they should be directed at Tapacall.

    As to the actual topic. Why should Adams be worried about dissident terrorism affecting his voter base? Clearly there is a high degree of ambivalence to the blood that is dripping from his hands, and he is focusing at present of selling himself as someone who is trying to convince the dissidents to stop.

  • The Word

    Tapacall

    The ones to blame are the ones who did these things. The sooner they realise that the better. Trying to blame all the usual suspects of war is to suggest that they shouldn’t be prepared to get in there when to leave those in there to their own devices would be to make war completely intolerable.

    There will be no war when there are no soldiers. Not before.

  • Alf

    tapacall,

    I read O’Loan’s report. Beyond all the sensationalism it was sloppy and misrepresentative. At one point the police took an explosive device from the UVF, rendered it inert and had the tout replace it, this she regarded as ‘collusion’.

    I wouldn’t put too much store in it.

    Do you reckon that SB were running PIRA?

  • As a former S/F member, I know for a fact that many, many members of the Party were not involved in anyway with the Provisional IRA. In saying that, there was of course some dual membership.

    The reality behind PSF is that it took the lead role within the Provisional Movement and continues to do so. Although, like all political Parties, power and money corrupts and only time will tell just how clean they truely are….

    This is why they are focussing so much of their energy on so-called dissidents. They think by constant smearing and spreading lies about them, that ordinary Nationalists and Republicans will turn against them. However, they seem to forget where they came from and how hard it was to come out of conflict. PSF also seem to forget how much discontent and dismay was forged in Whitehall and Stormont against them over the years!

  • tacapall

    “At one point the police took an explosive device from the UVF, rendered it inert and had the tout replace it, this she regarded as ‘collusion’”.

    Are you sure they didn’t make it for them, I and the majority of people in Ireland, Britain and the rest of the world know its true, maybe after the Loughinisland report

    http://www.u.tv/News/Major-failings-over-Loughinisland/2b027ae7-8cd8-420f-a8db-de03838b4267

    An independent investigation into the last loyalist atrocity of the Troubles has found there was a series of major failings in the police enquiry, UTV can reveal

    According to the families’ solicitor, Niall Murphy, the families are concerned there was collusion between the police and the killers.

    He said: “The getaway car was left abandoned and was recovered intact. A bag was found in the car. The bag contained the guns that were used in the atrocity.

    “There were balaclavas found there were gloves found, there were boiler suits found and none of those items were subjected to the advances in forensic science up until a complaint was made by the families.”

    “The car itself was incredibly wilfully destroyed by police in 1996,” he added.

    The Police Ombudsman’s initial findings reveal a series of major failings, including that not enough effort was made to identify those who carried out the atrocity, UTV understands.

    It is also understood police failed to speak to people of interest, that key evidence was destroyed and that there was poor record management.

    Do you think those who carried this out were also Special Branch agents. By the way did you read the Stevens inquiry, should I put up some of its findings.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Mick,

    the point of the article is that we are not dealing with any facts here just the ramblings of Mr Toolis.
    It is Mr Toolis who is telling us what SF wants, knows and expects. Unfortunately Mr Toolis does not enlighten us as to how he arrived at his prognosis, for instance was it through a series of interviews or does he have ‘sources’ that are briefing him on the thought processes of the current SF leadership.

    There is of course a little industry that has been very good to a cadre of journalists and security ‘experts’. Having been pensioned off a lot of these are now re-emerging from the woodwork to take advantage of the current situation, the death of Constable Kerr.
    They are being asked to fill column inches and it is clear that some are so far removed from events on the ground that they are incapable of given any in depth analysis of what are termed the ‘dissidents’. So in order to inform the public (turn a pound) we have copy and paste (deadlines to meet) pieces that the authors pass off as inside knowledge.

  • Bearing in mind Pat’s observation, just how valuable are Kevin Toolis’ ‘ramblings’?

    An unnamed BBC source has this to say about Toolis: “Toolis is an acknowledged terrorism expert and has studied and reported on conflicts in Africa, Ireland and the Middle East.”

    How does one become an expert on terrorism? It’s claimed that Toolis spent ten years researching material for his Provo book “Rebel Hearts”.

    “The unfinished war … reminds everyone that Adams has his own blood stains, too.”

    Did Toolis ever get around to disturbing those Adams’ skeletons? Did he produce sufficient evidence about such blood stains that might lead to a criminal conviction? If he did, has he presented it to the authorities? Here’s a snippet from Richard Bernstein’s New York Times review:

    “On the political issue, he offers little more than bromides about what needs to be done. (He calls in essence for forcing the Protestants to share real power and for the British to withdraw.) On the personal front, he drifts in a kind of moral purgatory. “I cannot say I am truly an Irish Republican,” he writes. “I lack the intensity for it, I would not kill for it.” And yet, he goes on, despite it all, “I remain a Republican,” and, he says, “I too remain possessed of a rebel heart.”

    This is not self-exploration; it is empty romantic gesture. What, after all, does having a rebel heart mean after the Polish tailor’s loss of his son, or all the many other deaths and maimings caused by the I.R.A.’s bombs? Mr. Toolis evades that question.”

    Where does Kevin’s heart lie now?

  • Neil

    the point of the article is that we are not dealing with any facts here just the ramblings of Mr Toolis.
    It is Mr Toolis who is telling us what SF wants, knows and expects. Unfortunately Mr Toolis does not enlighten us as to how he arrived at his prognosis

    100% correct. It’s an opinion piece pretending to be journalism.

    A clumsy attempt to link Adams with any and all Republican paramilitary activity, neatly ignoring the fact that for the duration of the troubles there were several Republican organisations, only one of which Adams allegedly had any control over.

    Adams is no more responsible for the activities of ONH as he is for the past deeds of the INLA. Although some Adams obsessed types might get excited at the thought that a bit of mud might be thrown and may even stick.

    As for the ‘point’ of the thread, what is it? The little headline? Adams and the forces of the crown etc.? Newsflash – Adams and SF declared their support for the PSNI (or ‘forces of the British Crown’ for the purpouses of this little point scoring attempt) some time ago.

    It’s funny for some Unionist people, they made such a big issue of support for the PSNI, now they jump up and down petulantly shouting – look look he’s supporting the PSNI! Yeah, well done. We get it.

    So the point of the thread? That one little statement is correct, when framed in the context of the dissidents. Should we now discuss how correct it was? Or can we discuss something else?

    Or is it now the case that once your point is proven not to be false Pete, everyone must leave the thread at once as any tangential conversation is just not cricket? Just curious.

    PS – You missed your usual knee slapper there Pete – Lord of the Manor of Ballswick and Bathwater or something no?

  • Alias

    “For once, but for wholly different reasons, Adams and the forces of the British Crown in Ireland are entirely united in their mutual aim of bringing the killers of PSNI Constable Ronan Kerr to justice.”

    It’s true that the Shinner’s narrative of the ‘peace process’ (that ‘republican’ goals were acheived) is undermined by the continued use of violence by former associates for political aims bit I think it runs deeper than a damage limitation exercise to PSF’s electoral prospects in Ireland. The so-called dissenents draw attention to the uncomfortable reality that it is the Shinners who have dissented from republicanism, and are now supporting the constitutional status quo (that NI remains a part of the UK until British self-determination determines otherwise, and that Irish self-determination has no legitimacy) as it was set out in the Government of Ireland Act 1921 and other Acts that consolidate partition.

    He assumes that the common goal is merely coincidental or expedient but the evidence points to British state control of the Shinners the express purpose of furthering that state’s interests. It is not the case that it is simply the means to an end that differeniates the Shinners from the dissedents but the end itself. The Shinners have endorsed the legitimacy of British rule and are promoting its normalisation, whereas the dissidents refuse to surrender their right to self-determination.

    It is that political message that is most feared by the British state and its supporters, the Shinners.

  • “for wholly different reasons, Adams and the forces of the British Crown in Ireland are entirely united”

    This is somewhat peculiar wording by Toolis. If the reasons are ‘wholly different’ then I don’t get the bit about ‘entirely united’. I suspect there’s still a bit of leeway. For example, would SF be amenable to a member of the public pressing charges against a party member?

  • Alf

    “As a former S/F member, I know for a fact that many, many members of the Party were not involved in anyway with the Provisional IRA”

    Ardeoin,

    Every single one of them supported the Provos and their murder campaign and the current ones continue to celebrate it.

  • Alf

    tapacall,

    You can quote all of the ‘inquiries’ that you like. Not one of them supports the allegations that you are espousing. You allege that the RUC and UDR were running the loyalist paramilitaries. That is absolute nonsense. It is the equivalent of a wide eyed unionist claiming that the RC church was running the Provos.

    Do you believe that SB was running the IRA?

  • Pete Baker

    Since few, if any, are prepared to discuss the actual topic civilly, this post is now closed to further comment.