Calls increase for new investigation into Joanne Mathers’ murder


The call by Lowry Mathers for further investigation of his wife’s murder (which I covered on Wednesday) may or may not achieve justice for them and their son. Whilst the precedents for success are not good, his comments, after 30 years of dignified silence, seem to have struck something of a chord. It is worth noting that this story came back into the public consciousness due to the work of Londonderry Sentinel journalist Eamon Sweeney whose comments are here.

The actual events of the murder are utterly shocking (though not much more so than so many other murders of the Troubles):

As Mrs Mathers collected the census forms a masked man dashed forward, snatched the clipboard she was holding with one hand, placed a gun to her neck with his other hand and fired.
The victim cried out and ran past the householder into his home. The house owner slammed a glass pannelled door in the hallway shut in an attempt to stop the killer following.
But, the gunman kept coming, smashed through the glass door and as Joanne Mathers lay dying on the ground, took the rest of the census forms. He then made his escape whilst brandishing the murder weapon in the air as a deterrent against anyone attempting to apprehend him.

Initially the IRA (and INLA) denied their involvement; indeed it seems that Mr. Mathers did not know that the IRA had admitted the crime until his recent meeting with Mr. Sweeney.

After the Londonderry Sentinel’s article (which also appeared in the News Letter) the BBC and Belfast Telegraph have both run with the story. Several unionist politicians have now echoed Mr. Mather’s call for the murder case to be looked at again

Gregory Campbell (from the BBC):

“What we need to do is try to find and establish who the perpetrators were and ensure whatever limited form of justice all these decades later,” he said.
“This could at least help to bring some closure to the Mathers family.”

Jim Allister and Tom Elliott have both called for Martin McGuinness to assist the investigation:

Jim Allister:
“I, therefore, call on McGuinness to come clean – not Father Chesney style – and tell the police what he and his cohorts know about the sanction, planning and murder of Joanne Mathers.”
Tom Elliott:
“It is long past time he came clean about what he knows about the crimes committed by the IRA in Londonderry whilst he was in command.”

It remains to be seen if advances in forensic technology can help solve this murder case or indeed whether Martin McGuinness will feel that Sinn Fein’s comment:
“The family of Joanne Mathers are entitled to the same considerations as all others looking for answers,” will override his oath to the IRA. It is difficult to know whether there will be any closure for Mr. Mathers after all these years.

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  • I think that Turgon hits the nail firmly on the head when he notes the dignified silence of Mr Mathers…now extending to 30 years.
    Nobody ever got anywhere in Norn Iron by maintaining a dignified silence. I would also add that while various unionist politicians are taking up his case…they were also unusually quiet for quite some time (I know this will invite a long list of their previous interventions) so there is a case of “I see a bandwagon….let me jump on it”.

    But notwithstanding the opportunity afforded by the 2011 census….(other factors being Mr McGuinness evidence to Saville and the liberal dissidents disenchantment with the Peace Process they shamelessly once supported despite its obvious shortcomings in respect of victims) the great mistake that Mr Mathers made is to not have courted the support of the folks in the Conflict Resolution “industry” or been more overtly associated with high profile (“loyalist”) victims groups.
    As a consequence his dignified silence was dismissed and he and his son confined to the margins.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    At last a bit of honesty comes into the debate.

  • Framer

    The murder of Mrs Mathers also reminds us how far the Provo mentality has travelled – from utter nihilism to the politics of Joe Devlin and Redmondism.

    What a waste of 30 years of our lives – those who survived.

    Has anyone written the definitive account of why it went on so long?

  • “Has anyone written the definitive account of why it went on so long?”

    No….but theres been a lot of seminars, papers delivered, workshops, conferences……and no end in sight.
    In fact Conflict Resolution will last longer than the Conflict.

  • Carrickmoreman

    Safe to assume much of the Unionist politicians’ interest is b/c there is an election upcoming. Justice is secondary.

  • Thats undoubtedly a factor.
    But to some extent.indeed a large extent…Martin McGuinness opened the door for that by his evidence to the Saville Enquiry. And of course theres the factor that it IS a census year.
    An the very word “Census” must conjure up all kinds of emotion for Mr Mathers.
    And as I said the liberal dissident elite will happily join with loyalist politicians ….but 15 years ago the liberal elite were not dissidents opposed to the process.

    In 1971 republicans were prepared to go to jail as some kinda gesture and encouraging people NOT to fill in these forms. In 1981 they killed someone who was merely collecting a form.
    Now Republicans are not encouraging boycotts or killing people. Indeed as a republican myself……I will happily fill in the form……….after all the whole point is to piss off unionists with the results. I will happily lie about my familys Gaelic language speaking ability….the further to antagonise them.
    When the results are announced there will be many Slugger threads talking up and talking down the results. I will happily join in those threads as will all the usual suspects.
    And the bottom line is that a young woman actually died…murdered for that. And the only real consideration is that her husband and child deserve Justice.

  • Everyone interested in justice should support Mr. Mathers call….However, wonder what would happen if the PIRA Volunteer who pulled the trigger supported the current PSF project would he/she be thrown to the wolves just as Gerry NcGeough was….?

    Call me a cynic or a realist but there are outstanding issues which deserve resolution…..

  • The Word

    “Has anyone written the definitive account of why it went on so long?”

    There was no need for any violence in the Troubles. Non-violent protest led to most of the change taking place. What actually justified the years of violence after Bloody Sunday, which brought down the Orange state? Apart from Fair Employment, which was a double-edged sword, nothing of substance was obtained by the violence.

    Republicanism and loyalism, directed by elites in society, fought a stupid war that led nowhere. Why did it last so long? Well, that’s because the elites were not taking the damage or suffering the consequences by and large.

    Any reasonable observer will find that the most vicious crimes (against God and man) were committed by those who saw themselves as least responsible for the decisions taken on the orders that they carried out.

    It is therefore no accident that Gerry Adams takes no blame for Jean McConville’s death, or Martin McGuinness sees himself as untouched by Joanne Mathers’ death or by Patsy Gillespie’s death.

    They don’t see themselves as having done it. And we’re only touching the tip of the iceburg in this society. When we start looking at the loyalist killings, we see a similar mentality.

    That is why it is no accident that both Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness found it possible to chuckle their way obscenely through their year in office.

    Paisley initiated the fun usually, saying “I knew about these things too, Martin.”

    Martin replied, “But I didn’t do anything wrong. You’re just making me laugh.”

    That’s the psychology. That’s why it went on so long. That’s a warning to society to pick politicians who won’t offer themselves up to be used behind the scenes.

  • The names of Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams seem to regularly crop up in relation to many of the worst atrocities of the Troubles. If they are involved in these multiple crimes against humanity, it seems hard to argue that they should not serve a natural life tariff in The Hague or some similar venue for them.
    After Germany surrendered in 1945, the German High Command, the SS and some other outfits were deemed criminal enterprises. No one can argue that many who are now prominent in Sinn Fein directed actions that leading Nazis would have puked at; Heinrich Himmler, like certain Irish leaders, was good at dishing out the orders but puked when faced with its reality. Maybe Irish Nazis have harder stomachs and tighter rear ends.
    Be that as it may, leading members of Sinn Fein aka PIRA were involved in crimes against humanity and should be held to account in a court of law for it just as leading ,members of FF n the South should do time for their crimes.
    The Nazi analogy comes from hanging the lowly 0out to dry and leaving the ring leaders do their moral bleatings in Stormont and Leinster House. Funny old world that rewards the most despicable of crimes with public adulation and public funds. The Nazis did not get that after they surrendered.

    Mathers was, of course, the easiest of easy targets and the question yet again rears its head: why did the Derry PIRA do this precursor to the human bomb? What as the real agenda?

  • 241934 john brennan

    The fact that the census collector was shot by the IRA as a “legitimate target” and this was justified by Sinn Fein at the time is proof of just how perverted and vicious the IRA’s campaign of violence was.

    The ongoing conspiracy of silence is still a cancerous distortion in our body politic.

  • tacapall

    First of all there is no excusing Joanne Mathers murder, it was wrong and that should be publically acknowledged by the republican movement. However if everyone involved in the past conflict was given immunity like the British Army / security forces then Im sure the answers Mr Mathers needs to come to terms with his grief would be given. There cannot be cherry picking of victims, if the role of the HET is to bring all perpetrators to justice then it should be for everyone involved the “not in the public interest” excuse cannot be allowed while others are being pursed and convicted.

  • The Word

    “it was wrong ”

    It was an act so evil that some might describe it as a war crime. For me it goes well beyond that and requires the full treatment of exposure and embarrassment.

    Trying to make comparisons with other crimes or actions is obscene and only betrays a truth about the Republican Movement and its followers that they are gathered up from low empathy elements of society that, while others were contemplating the evil, were looking at opportunities for their elementary sociopathic outlook.

    It’s time a republican stood up and told us why he now has this buzzword “empathy” and how, having this buzzword, he can see that it was evil to kill a young woman collecting census forms. If they can’t stand up, then tell us what the purpose was of their empty condolences to the family of Michaela Harte.

    This excuse “war” does not cover all contingencies.

  • HeinzGuderian

    You don’t annoy Unioninists Fitzy………how could you ? The Flag flying over the City Hall is STILL the Union Flag !!

    What our nat/rep friends still fail to comprehend,is the fact that we will never give in to their murders,bombings,mutilations…………not in a Thousand years !!

    el beardo has left the stage……………muddled marty STILL administers BRITISH RULE at Stormont………;-)

  • tacapall

    The Word

    “Trying to make comparisons with other crimes or actions is obscene and only betrays a truth about the Republican Movement and its followers that they are gathered up from low empathy elements of society that, while others were contemplating the evil, were looking at opportunities for their elementary sociopathic outlook”.

    A bit of a brass neck comment from you, so how many orphans did the catholic church work to death, or how many were used as sex slaves by your brothers of the cloth. Were those peadophile priests gathered from the “low empathy elements of society” or were they from good upstanding homes educated at Trinity College. Tell me do you think the priests at St Matthews church would agree with you.

  • Oh dear….I dont annoy unionists. Its the entire purpose of my life. Youve never actually given me the impression that you approve of Mr McGuiness in high office. To bring Sinn Féin even more into the “pro union” fold, the logical thing would be if you voted for them.

  • Tacapall: The Caholic Church has always been such a big target that not even the spastics of Sinn Fein could miss – even though very few of said spastics could shoot straight and were renowned for their collateral damage gigs.

    Just so you know: those who killed Mathers and those who ordered her murder are war criminals. As are the brave human bomb scum. Geddit?

    The paedophiles of the Catholic church and those of Kincora and those – including, it is rumoured, two leading ex Fianna Eireann minders – caught up in yesterday’s swoops – must answer for their crimes, as must British army personnel.

    But that whataboutery does not change the fact that Sinn Fein’s top is populated by some of the worst war criminals Western Europe has seen since 1945.
    The Nazis, Goering in particular, launched similar defences at Nuremburg. Let’s see Sinn Feiners do it at The Hague.

  • The Word

    Tacapall

    I gave my views to a priest once about the troubled families that give rise to the Republican Movement.

    He told me he disagreed.

    But then Gerry Adams, the leader, revealed all his background. He was certainly from a troubled family. I see that as sad. Others see that as an opportunity.

  • Alanmaskey Still as rabid as ever I see, and no doubt just as selective. Don’t suppose you reserved any of those labels for the Generals who ordered Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy Massacre, McGurks Bar coverup to ensure loyalist bombers escaped to kill again. Or what about those in high command who approved or tolerated a working relationship with loyalist murder gangs (which included gangs up to and including the Shankill Butchers) I remind you that Loyalist Paramilitary leaders have appologized for killing innocent civilians… explaining that, they were only as good as the intelligence passed their way. … murder is murder is murder and all that … except when british soldiers and RUC Officers played part in it, yes Alanmaskey you are very selective… perhaps you have motive to be.

  • tacapall

    The Word who gives a …. about Gerry Adams and his family I care nothing for him or his minions but whats good for the goose is good for the gander and all that, is justice served if its only for the selective few. Did the actons of the RUC Special Branch officers who controlled the Mount Vernon UVF not count as “an act so evil that some might describe it as a war crime”.

  • 241934 john brennan

    Like Herod’s slaughter of the innocents, Joanne Mathers’ murder, immediately claimed by the IRA and justified by Sinn Fein, plumbed the very depths of human depravity.

    Human experience shows that when human beings give their lives over to evil, there is no bottom level of depravity, to which they will not sink.

    The murder of Joanne Mathers, with its immediate Provo acknowledgement and justification, is at a lower level of depravity than Jean McConville’s murder and disappearance – where initial Provo denials at least demonstrated the human sense of shame and guilt.

    In the long march of history the Provos, will like Herod, only be remembered for inhuman atrocities – Ideology gone bad and mad.

  • Christy Walsh: My bio mentions I like Joyce, as does Turgon. I also like Paddy Kavanaagh, to me, Ireland’s greatest poet, who fampously said he found it hard to explain himself to fools.
    Regarding your whataboutery, I have said on more than one occasion than occasion that the Bloody Sunday war criminals are war criminals.
    But this thread is about the home grown variety, the Irish born and bred war criminals who fought, as David Trimble said, a squalid little war…for very squalid reasons.

    If the Sinn Fein leaders were patriots, they should be prepared to do the time for the crime. But they are not. They are squalid war criminals who used – and abused – other people to do their dirty work.

  • fordprefect

    Alan, I agree 100% with what Christy said. I, personally, shook my head in disbelief at the time (the killing of Joanne Mathers), granted, Bobby sands was just over a month into his hunger strike and people were emotional etc. But, I just couldn’t get my head around it, I thought to myself (at the time), who the f*** gave the go-ahead for that and why! As a republican, even to this day I can’t fathom why this was done. The only conclusion I have came to is, (a) the person that thought killing her would further the republican cause was/is a mental case, or, (b) they were/are a British agent.

  • Mark

    Alanmaskey,

    Your pandering to Turgon is embarrassing . You’ve said a lot of things on a lot of sites about a lot of subjects – thats’s the problem when you drink and post .

    Let me ask you something alanamskey . Were the East Tyrone Brigade war criminals , you know , the boys you used to go drinking with in Dublin ( Jim Lynagh , Keoghs ) or is it just certain IRA Brigades you have a problem with . When did you see the light alanmaskey ?

    You after making initial contact with me on another site , you put me on your ignore list ….. I wonder why .

    Alammaskey , I’m not the kind of guy who would disclose anything said in a private message ( your boasts about Jim lynagh , voting for Bobby etc were all put up on the public board on P.ie ) ……but your juggling act from website to website is a hard thing to do when you don’t remember what you’ve posted ….you can end up looking like a gobshite and we both know you’re far from that , don’t we .

  • Alanmaskey “If the Sinn Fein leaders were patriots, they should be prepared to do the time for the crime.”

    While I do not care a toss about Sinn Fein your argument is that Patriotism equals criminality. The British Empire was built upon a level of Patriotism for which much of this world is still coming to terms.

    Your arguement is also girly hysterical by equating anything that happened in NI, much less the murder of an innocent woman, as on a par with Nazi Germany during WW2. No comparison.

    However, here is the view expressed by Brian Faulkner, and other NI executive members, to the Prime Minister at Chequers, “The outcome which the Protestant extremists sought was without question an independent, neo-fascist Northern Ireland…” (Catalogue reference: PREM 16/147, http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/releases/2005/nyo/ni.htm)

    Recent Unionist usage of terms likening Nationalists to Nazi’s is maybe more to do with projectionism than what is real. Many RUC Officers killed civilians, including children, maybe you should tell Johnathan Bell that he should not publically support, in your view, war criminals by insulting and attacking the families of those murdered, who were just as innocent as Mrs Mathers.

    Mrs Mathers killing was wrong and Turgon has done some justice for her and her family.

    Alanmaskey do not use the death of the innocent as convenient platform to vent your rabid political opposition of SF. Your read poems by Kavanaagh? Huh? Do you actually believe that that in some way makes you a moderate? Most reasonable people reading that would conclude that you may be a little fanatical.

  • As I said earlier, the killing of Mrs. Mathers was wrong…..

    Doesn’t matter who carried it out, ordered it etc…

    All this talk of war crimes only serves to muddy the waters regarding this unjustified killing…simple!

    There were a huge number of unjustified killings during the Conflict and sadly every single group/Army were responsible for them and for continuing the War….

    The Mathers Clann are entitled to know the truth behind Joanne’s killing just as the victims of Bloody Sunday!

  • Alanmaskey: PS: further to your Joyce/Kavanagh disclosure as proof of your moderation –Gerry A and loads of Republicans read Shakespear and Chauser. Johnny Adair would read the works of Adams and Morrisson –if he could read.

  • fordprefect

    LOL@Christy, (regarding Adair)

  • fordprefect

    ArdEoin Republican, I beg to differ mo cara, it does matter who ordered it. (when you say about who carried it out, we all know the IRA did it, they claimed it, and, I’m not talking about the individual that actually shot her), what I’m getting at is, when the momentum of support for the hunger strikers was gathering a lot of pace, who, in their right mind would have okayed an act like that? The second part of my conclusion that it was someone working for the Brits is the most likely explanation. If there were to be war crimes tribunals, then, everyone would be in the dock, republicans, ruc/psni, udr/rir, loyalists, british army etc.

  • The Word

    Tapacall

    Get be behind me, Satan.

    Have you ever heard those words before? I would say that you have a problem with perception with the comments you’re utttering on this thread.

  • The Word

    fordperfect

    “The second part of my conclusion that it was someone working for the Brits is the most likely explanation.”

    Sinn Fein have always been Britain’s agents in Ireland, undermining the natural values of the Irish people and serving the needs of the cynical merchants who they know will keep them in money and power.

    They tell us they’re going to oppose gombeenism in the Republic while giving us Martin McGuinnes in the North.

    How they’re in for a surprise!

  • Mark: I don’t drink. I am stone cold sober. I am, however, very poorly sighted due to “misadventures” in days gone by.
    Derry and Belfaast “Brigades”, PIRA: They sure had some flotsam aboard(No disrespect to Ard Eoin or especially his late father).
    Did the tail wag the dog and to what end?
    Who ordered the murder of Denis Donaldson (whose pic I use in my av with the gull Sands)? Did a PIRA mole in RIRA get it done? What was Donaldson’s dark secret? Little boys? Little girls? Was he in the Nutting Squad?

    Waffen SS: Had some brave volunteers and capable leaders but some right scum bags. One of their most capable was Joachim Peiper whose men dished it out to the Yankee war criminals after Arnhem. Peiper explained that his SS men were tough Bavarian kids, not well educated but they knew how to handle arms. And they were pissed with the Yanks for fire bombing their grannies. So who were the criminals? Peiper did a few years after the war and was afterwards assassinated by French cowards.

    Some people fought the good fight. Others did not

    Fordperfect: Regarding your question, Her Majesty, the Queen called them dark forces.

    Pandering to Turgon: Not really. Turgon, to his credit, has brought up a very interesting case that deserves airing. Where Turgon and I might part company is my Catholicism turns to introspection.
    I think we all need to know who ordered the murder of Ms Mathers, who sanctioned the Derry human car bombs and who allowed the most compromised people into the Derry PIRA.

    Chisty Walsh: Go read Paddy Kavanagh. As for Danny Morrisson, his writing certainly brightens the day of Turgon et al.

  • alanmaskey “Chisty Walsh: Go read Paddy Kavanagh.” Maybe you should go read Turgon’s blogg!! –then how about you stay on topic and get off your rants and diatribes.

  • fordprefect

    Christy,
    Well said, Alan takes one subject, then, takes it to another and goes off on one of his self satisified rants!

  • Christy Walsh: I would talk about shooting the messenger but I do have the Paddy Kavanagh problem when talking to you.
    The people who organised the murder of Ms Mathers are war criminals. The views of Turgon on the matter (or an anythign else) do not change the fact that the person in charge of the Derry PIRA at the time should do a natural life tariff in The Hague for it and most probably for other war crimes as well.

  • fordprefect

    Alan,
    Does it not follow then, that the people in charge when Bloody Sunday, McGurks Bar and all the rest happened (as Christy said) should follow suit? If not, then you have a very skewed opinion of the world.

  • alanmaskey –ahem, through the hysterical whine you ranted something about Nazi’s, equated patriotism with crime, something about war crimes, something about you read Joyce & Kavanagh (as indicator of what a nice fellow you are)… well that is all well and good I will go along with you so far, but are british soldiers who murdered children with plastic bullets war criminals, is the RUC officer who murdered a house wife a war criminal, are those in high command within the political and military establishment “who approved or tolerated a working relationship with loyalist murder gangs (which included gangs up to and including the Shankill Butchers) I remind you that Loyalist Paramilitary leaders have appologized for killing innocent civilians… explaining that, they were only as good as the intelligence passed their way. … ”

    Come Now Alanmaskey you are really good at dishing out -about who are nazi’s, war criminal, etc, etc, ad nauseam, in fact you are one of the most biased, fanatical contributors on slugger. Your postings here are nothing to do with the horrible fate of Mrs Mathers but just another oppurtunity for you to spew your usual (and sad) rantings and obsessions.

    Referencing that Turgon and you both read Joyce–what has that got to do with anything but seeking an allay –what you post and what Turgon posts here are very far removed in both reason and tolerance. I do not think your rather wormy way of seeking allies is missed by many here.

  • fordprefect

    Christy,
    You and I know what it’s like to be on the wrong side of “justice” here in the north (although you got a substantially heavier sentence than I did, you got 14 years, I got 5 years), but, I was 16 when I was arrested (as I think you know I had my “convictions” quashed in 2008). The likes of Alan IMO doesn’t think that something like that could happen in his beloved little province, someone should tell him that. I’m asking Alan, “were the judges that convicted Christy and myself (wrongfully, and based on lies) war criminals”?

  • fordprefect sadly you cannot reason with the unreasonable. Alanmaskey is grinding his own bitter axe regardless of whether he is right or wrong –it is all about getting the boot in at every and any oppurtunity. He is oblivious to his own hysteria, bias and warped thinking, (his avatar is good indicator of how fucked up he is –he obsesses about everything republican) –such self delusion and denial is usually a sign of a fanatic of sorts. Anyone who only sees a small aspect of his overall motives on occassion as seemingly reasonable –such that he reads Joyce and Kavanagh and so must be a moterate and reasonable fellow, so he is more cunning than intelligent.

  • fordprefect

    Christy,
    Yeah, you’re probably right.

  • Christy Walsh: You come across to me as an idiot so I have not bothered reading your last few posts. Paddy Kavanagh did warn against people like you. (I am swtching to a Prot poet below so watch out)

    Fordprefect:Yes, the organisers of Bloddy Sunday are war criminals. McGurk’s bar: The Guardian and similar rags have cases to answer.
    Tony Blair is a war criminal. Most likely those attacking Libya and not Bahrain/Saudi are the same.
    But so too are the Irish war criminals; the main ones are well known and come from Derry and Belfast cities.
    To go further: I rejoiced to the Lord when I heard The Jackal was gone and King Rat had got justice of a sort for crimes committed in mid Ulster and further afield. Both of them had brains and were good operators. Both of them had helping handlers, who are war criminals.
    But that should not detract us here: those who oganised the murder of Joanne Mathers are war criminals and should be held to account.
    Regarding The East Tyrone IRA in particular: they paid their dues in spades. Others did not. So ship them off to the Hague or at least do not pretend that they are other than what they are: war criminals.
    Turgon is to be commended for being a thorn in our collective conscience. Long may this thorn continue to fester.
    The picture above should. It shows a sweet, young mother and a child from whom all we hold dear was stolen.
    :::::::::::::::;
    I know that I shall meet my fate
    Somewhere among the clouds above;
    Those that I fight I do not hate,
    Those that I guard I do not love;
    My country is Kiltartan Cross,
    My countrymen Kiltartan’s poor,
    No likely end could bring them loss
    Or leave them happier than before.
    Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
    Nor public men, nor cheering crowds,
    A lonely impulse of delight
    Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
    I balanced all, brought all to mind,
    The years to come seemed waste of breath,
    A waste of breath the years behind
    In balance with this life, this death.

  • Munsterview

    Christy, Mark, Ard Eoin et al,

    Whatever divergent views we may have in advancing Republicanism, I would have thought that individually and collectively you were a bit long in the tooth to respond to an exposed agent provocateur source?

    I have lost track of how many times since I began posting here in slugger, that I have seen what promised to be interesting and genuine exchanges between your good selves and Unionist sources side tracked or derailed by this source. It could be grudge politics or opsessionalism, but from what I have seen there are intelligent, calculated patterns to this disruption of dialogue that fit a far more farmilar template than mere contrarianism.

    I have emphatically stated my objections to the activities of this source as in my view the reasons for this activity are sinister. Neither is it inadvertent ‘Old Dufferism’ I can recall several interventions that time and again demonstrated a fine appreciation of psychology and what Abraham Maslow referred to as ‘ Motivation and Personality’ push buttons.

    When a poster consistently use methodologies advocated in ‘ Security Seminars’ by those who consider themselves to be experienced practitioners in the ‘Hearts and Mind’ games, then there is either a natural genius or a trained operative at work. I have long ago reached my own conclusions as to which apply here !

    I would ask you individually and collectively to reflect before engaging with this source, to do so is only to muddy the waters, which is the object of the exercise to begin with.

  • Munsterview You are probably right –I was merely goading him myself to narrow his scope –he is now castigating loyalists while clearly ommitting any reference to where my questions were directly aimed –security force handlers (and generals) of both loyalist and republican murderers –which may include the person who ordered Mrs Mathers dead.

    I think he is a former member of a security force targeting gang myself –his posts are generally geared to always keep republican, and sometimes loyalists, in the spot light –that way he may feel a sense of safety that no one will reflect on his, and his collegues, sordid history of facilitating, tolerating, participating and directing in the murders of innocent people like Mrs Mathers –via a paramilitary proxy.

  • Mark

    Munsterview,

    I appreciate what you’re saying however I am of the view that alammaskey turns any thread into a thread about himself and as such , the original subject goes out the window ……… just like this one .

  • The Word

    “disruption of dialogue that fit a far more farmilar template than mere contrarianism.

    I have emphatically stated my objections to the activities of this source as in my view the reasons for this activity are sinister. Neither is it inadvertent ‘Old Dufferism’ I can recall several interventions that time and again demonstrated a fine appreciation of psychology and what Abraham Maslow referred to as ‘ Motivation and Personality’ push buttons.

    When a poster consistently use methodologies advocated in ‘ Security Seminars’ by those who consider themselves to be experienced practitioners in the ‘Hearts and Mind’ games, then there is either a natural genius or a trained operative at work. I have long ago reached my own conclusions as to which apply here !”

    “I think he is a former member of a security force targeting gang myself –his posts are generally geared to always keep republican, and sometimes loyalists, in the spot light –that way he may feel a sense of safety that no one will reflect on his, and his collegues, sordid history of facilitating, tolerating, participating and directing in the murders of innocent people like Mrs Mathers –via a paramilitary proxy.”

    Alan must be winning.

  • Mark

    Well bang goes his credibility if you’re singing his praises …..that’s for fuc!in sure !

  • Let’s keep diverting the attention from the lady in Turgon’s picture above and the little child who was robbed of everything we hold dear. Let us also not ask why such a callous act was done by Derry Sinn Fein’s militant cousins (the usual suspects, one could say) only days before Bobby Sands (pictured in my av along with that other great Belfast republican and veteran of St Matthews, Denis Donaldson.)

    On a personal note: I was near Dungannon when her death came over on the wireless. It did not make much of a splash. Sands was elected MP two or so days later. I am not sure if Martin McGuinness layed much of a part oin Sands’ campaign; he was, no doubt, otherweise engaged.

    This is not to suggest McGuinness did this vile act or was even in PIRA. After all, none of Derry’s supergrasses could lay a finger on him.

    I remember being told at school fado fado that when we are no longer shocked and abhorred by acts like this, we are lost. Thankfully I am saved. Now back to Rhema Marvanne. Check her out.

  • Alf

    “Safe to assume much of the Unionist politicians’ interest is b/c there is an election upcoming. Justice is secondary.”

    Carrickmore’man’,

    Otherwise they would be utterly disinterested in the cold blooded sectarian murder of a young mother?

  • The Word

    “Sands was elected MP two or so days later. I am not sure if Martin McGuinness layed much of a part oin Sands’ campaign; he was, no doubt, otherweise engaged.”

    A Gobnascale man told me that he was on a bus that went down to help Sands.

    You have to wonder what kind of people would be prepared to do that. Were they really afraid to say no?

  • http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/give-my-son-justice-for-ira-murder-of-mum-he-never-got-to-know-15117866.html

    Alf: Do you notice the twist? The Mathers family, who happen to be Protestant, are destroyed at the core. And the victims are: Derry Brigade PIRA.
    To defend the man most associate with the Derry PIRA is to defend the indefensible. Still, people endorse this at the ballot box.

  • Alf

    “Alf: Do you notice the twist? The Mathers family, who happen to be Protestant, are destroyed at the core. And the victims are: Derry Brigade PIRA.
    To defend the man most associate with the Derry PIRA is to defend the indefensible. Still, people endorse this at the ballot box.”

    Alan,

    The more his Provo past is highlighted the more his vote increases. The more Uncle Gerry’s role in paedophilia was highlighted the more he topped the pole. It can’t all be blame on the shite they vote for. Some blame has to be placed on the voters.

  • Mark

    We’re over here boys , are we ? alan and alf sitting in a tree , K.I.S.S I.N.G, first come alan’s come on …………

    You’re starting to sound like a bit of a flibbertigibbet now alan .

  • West Sider

    First point: Alan Maskey is a troll, and very probably someone whose politics are unionist, or is insane.

    Either one, take your pick, but his views should be disregarded as he is inconsistent and really, deeply, silly.

    Now, to the subject of this thread: I hope the HET find and identify the murderer of Joanne Mathers.

    I hope we get a name. I hope they don’t sleep at night worrying about that. And I also hope that when they do, this “person” is made to explain to the Mathers family and to the people of this country why he felt able to shoot a young woman DEAD for the terrible crime of collecting census forms.

    The person who committed this act, if alive, is evil. That’s right, evil. They are down there with the Shankill Butchers and the Yorkshire Ripper.

    We talk about war and war crimes, and this was most certainly a war crime.

    What type of person and how cancerous must be their hate and, depressingly for the rest of us, how pathetic, how utterly pathetic, is it to tie your soul and life to the power of the gun, to lethal force, that you murder a defenceless young mother.

    Whoever they are, they need to be identified, we need to know, society, and humankind need to know, why this person committed this atrocity.

    We need it to be able to move on, the make things right, to build a better society.

    Was this person a psychopath? Certainly. And what brought this sociopathy out – the Troubles.

    And waltzing away from his atrocity while raising a gun demonstrates that.

  • Alf

    “this was most certainly a war crime.”

    Bullshit. It was a sectarian hate crime.

  • Mark

    Alf , are you near anything sharp ?

  • andnowwhat

    Mark

    Alf , are you near anything sharp ?

    Clearly not his whit.

    Clearly why we need a unit price for alcopops

  • West Sider

    “this was most certainly a war crime.”

    Bullshit. It was a sectarian hate crime.

    Alf, you’re right. I have no answer to that. It WAS a sectarian crime. And it was disgusting.

  • West Sider

    Mark, you don’t seem to understand the North. There was an element of sectarianism in this murder, and the PIRA, despite their best PR efforts, were not averse to sectarian killings.

    And even now, in the days after, I can still see and experience “volunteers” screeching and screaming about “the huns” during SPL games.

    Bigots are there and always have been.

    An event tonight brought it home: visited my Dad in hospital and during the course of conversation (he has early onset dementia) he mentioned the “wee girl” shot dead in a petrol station on the Crumlin Road by the PIRA in 1976 (don’t know about the date) – but someone with me said that did happen.

    He expresed disgust at this – my Da always hated the Provies and he had cause to even though he was from one of their “heartlands”, as ignorant, stupid journalists would put it.

    In this instance, they went in and shot her and another worker in the back of the head.

    The Provos were, at times, as sectarian as the loyalists. Thank God it all stopped. And here’s hoping it stays stopped.

  • West Sider: The person who murdered Ms Mathers did so under orders. Are you trying to say the guy who pulled the trigger was all the nasty things you said and the guy, most likely well known, who ordered it, is not culpable.
    And of course, if we switch to Belfast, we come to another well known hate/war criminal but hey, demean people (disidents, unionists, church goers) who pick holes in the Sinn Fein bs.

    Alf: war crime or sectarian hate crime. We are agreed it is a crime that stinks to heaven for justice. No great point getting the monkey if the orgaqn grinder struts his stuff at Stormont.

    i am watching the move Bold native now. Let’s hope it does not give ideas to Sinn Fein’s enemies. For Derry Sinn Fein rather than the Mathers or Gillespie families are the real victims. I wonder how many jokes Sinn Fein voters made after Mathers was murdered and if Marttin McG chuckled along.

  • West Sider

    West Sider: The person who murdered Ms Mathers did so under orders. Are you trying to say the guy who pulled the trigger was all the nasty things you said and the guy, most likely well known, who ordered it, is not culpable.
    And of course, if we switch to Belfast, we come to another well known hate/war criminal but hey, demean people (disidents, unionists, church goers) who pick holes in the Sinn Fein bs.

    The guy who did it was all the nasty things I said.

    The guy who ordered it is all the nasty things I said.

    I don’t understand the next point you make. Or are you making a point? This is a forum for debate – so you need you make points that I can respond to.

    Do you have have the inclination or ability to do that?

  • West Sider

    Just noticed what you said to Alf:

    I won’t be responding to any of your posts, as you’re a crank and quite possibly bonkers.

    So, do one.

  • Good to see WS beleives that Martin McGuinness, if he had a role in this crime or in others, should be held to account. Better be insane/a crank/ a Unionist than a war/hate criminal.
    Everyone is not here to debate with aploogists for Sinn Fein.
    Back to the movie where pop has touted on the son. That’s the only Irish angle in it so far.

  • Mark

    Westsider ,

    Thanks for that patronising comment , you’re an hour away , you’re not on Jupiter ……. and without taking the 5th , I can’t really comment …… but that bullshit ” you don’t understand ” .. please ,

    Which part of the north are you talking about – really ….I’d like to know .

  • West Sider

    Neither Mark or Alan are worth it. Troll all before you, guys. Get a girl, write your parents, step outside and have a life…

  • Mark

    Good man , thanks for that ….. back to the samaritan’s hotline … didn’t catch where you were from though , maybe when you grace us with your presence next time you decide to drop in to change the world , you can let me know , then you can start to judge me , until then …..

  • Nunoftheabove

    As to whether it was a sectarian hate crime or a war crime…it can’t be the latter under international law and highly questionable whether it can be the former under domestic law. Either way, it was straightforwardly a crime and there seems little debate about that, which is a start. Claiming a political motivation for a crime doesn’t unmake it a crime.

    As such, no more to be said other than where the cops/HET are with it. The difference between the ugliness of the conflict here and equal ugliness in, say South Africa (e.g. necklace killings) is that in the latter admissions and truth-sharing could subsequently happen because (i) the conflct is over (as well as the fact that there is no question as to why there was a conflcit in the beginning); and (ii) the conflict has been resolved in the, so to say, right way which is now only disputed by inconsequential fringe nutters.

    Neither of those conditions applies in the north which is why we cannot have truth, admissions and full amenability to legal redress for those responsible for criminal acts.

  • Nunoftheabove: Interesting point. Any comments on why British MPs l;anded in the clink over the expenses chump change, why Peter Sheridan got done for perjury and why members of FF and SF are not banged up?
    Ireland is, indeed, a very funny place sir.

  • Nunoftheabove

    alanmaskey

    There is that dimension as well of course but from a straightforwardly political p.o.v. it won’t/can’t happen for the reasons provided. With the best will in the world I do wish some of these paid reconciliators and all manner of religious do-good types would get a grip and realize this also and place their quest for ‘healing’ in some form of semi-coherent political context.

  • Nunoftheabove: I feel the lie must, along with the gun, be also decommissioned from the Irish mind set. The Irish have been conditioned to do the most unconscionable things and to justify them. The belligerents in the North, FF and SF in the South.
    In other places, it seems to have been a passing phase. In Ireland, it seems to be almost a part of the psyche.
    I posted a link here to John Noonan, ex Dublin Brigade PIRA leader, who did a few years in the Kesh. The CAB are after him for a few million euros. How many other “ex” Provos are in CAB’s sights and how many have got get out of jail cards in the interests of the interminable Peace Process?
    The line between the criminal and the Provo political seems very blurred. Perhaps the line is as much a figment of our imaginations as the clean war is to the imaginations of Provo apologists.
    The IRA did not fight a clean war. (And to the Provos: neither did the Orangies/Brits). But the Provos’ multiple war/hate/psycho type crimes, most notable in Derry City and the operating area of of the Second Batallion Belfast Brigade PIRA seem not only decidedlly sick but they have robbed Republicans of any right to the moral high ground.
    Regarding the Third Batallion, well the Short Strand mob seem to have been a right bunch of sick perverts.
    Turgon is right to bring up these “forgotten” cases and, from his perspective, it must seem odd that a non drinking mass going RC Pioneer is at the centre of all this.

  • Stieg

    Calls increase for new investigations into the deaths of

    1)patrick rooney(9)
    2)francis mcguigan(2)
    3)carol ann mccool(3)
    4)bernadette mccool(9)
    5)denise ann dickson(5)
    6)angela gallagher(17months)
    7)desmond healy(14)
    8)james mcallum(14)
    9)damian harkin(6)
    10)leo mcguigan(15)
    11)annette mcgavigan(14)
    12)marie mcgurk(13)
    13james cromie(13)
    14)tracey munn(1)
    15)colin nicholl(7months)
    16)martin mcshane(15)
    17)margaret gargan(13)
    18)william crothers(15)
    19)shaun o’riordan(14)
    20)david mcauley(13)
    21)micheal connors(14)
    22)francis rowntree(11)
    23)roseleen gavin(8)
    24)joan scott(12)
    25)micheal mcgee(16)
    26)martha campbell(13)
    27)manus deery(15)
    28)david mccleneghan(15)
    29)harold morris(14)
    30)tobias molloy(15)
    31)alan jack(5months)
    32)stephen parker(14)
    33)catherine eakin(9)
    34)joesph connolly(16)
    35)william temple(16)
    36)daniel hegarty(16)
    37)daniel rooney(15)
    38)alec moorehead(15)
    39)micheal turner(15)
    40)william doherty(4)
    41)william warnock(15)
    42)paula strong(6)
    43)clair hughes(4)
    44)rory gormley(14)
    45)james reynolds(16)
    46)eugene devlin(15)
    47)bernard fox(16)
    48)peter waterson(14)
    49)philip rafferty(14)
    50)kevin heatley(13)
    51)sean o’riordan(13)
    52)anthony mcdowell(12)
    53)eileen mackin(14)
    54)daniel rouse(15)
    55)paul crummey(4)
    56)henry cunningham(16)
    57)brian mcdermott(10)
    58)
    59)
    60)
    61)
    62)
    63)
    64)
    65)
    66)
    67)
    68)
    69)
    81)
    86)
    94)

  • Given that this is census weekend, does anyone know if Sinn Fein will be shooting any female census workers this year or have they given it up for Lent?