Dissident threat makes FT take arguments for public spending seriously

It’s worth noting that the influential Financial Times has homed in on whether there is an economic dimension to the rise of dissident repulbican violence. T he timing is interesting, coming in the midst of the NI budget wrangle and on the eve of the Irish general election. The paper’s excellent Ireland correspondent John Murray Brown has been to the Kilwilkie estate, a centre of dissidence.

The paper also carries an overview which is sympathetic to the view that for the sake of stability, public spending should not be cut too quickly. Coming from the FT, this is quite something, to give Northern Ireland and public spending this treatment. It suggests that the arguments against simplistic ideas of a zero sum choice between boosting the private sector and reducing the public are being taken seriously . With what result, we wait and see.     The reports come on the back of the decision to award the PSNI an extra £200 million over the next four years to combat the dissident threat.

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  • Behaner

    The reports come on the back of the decision to award the PSNI an extra £200 million over the next four years to combat the dissident threat

    the unemployment dissidents 450000 cud get eh,jobs=recession=. an extra £200 million over the next four years to combat the dissident threat an extra £200 million over the next four years to combat the dissident threat an extra £200 million over the next four years to combat the dissident threat an extra £200 million over the next four years to combat the dissident threat an extra £200 million over the next four years to combat the dissident threat

    unemployment imf benifit of 186 euro=how little in sterlin?

  • Rory Carr

    Unemployment Benefit of Euro186 is equivalent to Sterling £158.55.

    In the UK the rates are as follows:

    The maximum weekly amounts you can claim are:

    * 16 – 25 year olds = £50.95
    * 25 year olds and over = £64.30

    In other words, Behaner, in the Republic the rates are more than three times the rate of those in the UK for the under-25’s and almost two and half times greater than the UK rate for over-25’s.

    There are almost 1 million under 18’s in the UK who are neither in education, training nor employment.

    Think yourself lucky.

  • Rory Carr

    Correction: The UK figure for those under 25 confirmed as not being in employment, training or education is reported today as 943,000.

  • Brian, I can’t access these FT links but I did copy this:

    “From WORLD 11:00pm
    N Irish economic woes boost terror groups
    Recession acting as recruiting sergeant, say security officials”

    Some twat at the FT doesn’t know that NI is in the UK and some other twats in the security services would have others believe that the push for a UI has something to do with economics. I hope the intelligence services isn’t a club for oxymorons.

  • Behaner

    The paper’s excellent Ireland correspondent John Murray Brown has been to the Kilwilkie estate, a centre of dissidence.???whazza dizzidont?excellent?whazza so special bout lurgan?a hotbed of dissidents armed wit their majestys labour cards?is the creggan or shankill as dizzy?
    is unemployment and poverty a feature,in the lanscape,so to speak?how does this contrast wit weston/moyross/moss side?Is there a cure 4 unemployment?

    down south,7 new jbs were created and 1,932 jobs were lost.However,unemployment figures have again fallen,as 2683 people left on the boats n planes since late on tuesday nite.dis is a positive developement and must not be seen as a lack of well,eh,developement.

    an extra £200 million over the next four years to combat the dissident threat an extra £200 million over the next four years to combat the dissident threat an extra £200 million over the next four years to combat

  • The Word

    There’s a strange reasoning for those who want to engage in suppressing the dissidents. It involves giving the PSNI £200M and letting their boys engage with these crazed hollowheads in the Dissident groups.

    Are they serious? I drove through a PSNI checkpoint in a sensitive area at a sensitive time and the young policeman was literally shitting himself. He was shaking as he realised he was vulnerable. What do these politicians want?

    The PSNI are supposed to take a group which plays by no rules, has no morality, and thrives on intimidating people. That’s not sensible. Some might say that that’s what the RUC did too, but they weren’t much better that the dissidents in some respects.

    This whole show has to stop now. All causes of grievance have to be faced up to. The British government, instead of attempting to suppress this for another generation, has to realise that that just can’t be done.

    Let’s dissolve this problem by accepting that the Plantation of Ulster was actually profoundly evil, and that the unionists really don’t a historic reason for being here. THey may want to stay, I’m sure they will, but they just didn’t arrive here to fight the Battle of the Boyne or any other such nonsense. They’re here for not much better reason that British citizens have BT shares.

    They’re here due to financial incentives. When the British government speaks in a moral way to the unionists the force of their endeavours here in Ireland will melt because they have no basis.

    We’ll get back to integration and assimilation, and the future will evolve. But I can assure all involved of one thing: – that if they continue this war to be supposed fought by the footsoldiers they will be mistaken as to the height of its reach. This war will reach everybody.

  • Word “Let’s dissolve this problem by accepting that the Plantation of Ulster was actually profoundly evil, and that the unionists really don’t a historic reason for being here. … We’ll get back to integration and assimilation, and the future will evolve.”

    And what would you suggest about the blacks? the Poles? or Chinese? I am sure most of them have no historic connection to the place. Irish Nationalism is not always easily defined as other kinds of Nationalism are which are usually strict about exclusion; Irish Nationalism is in part driven from the experience of injustice and abuse and so is not so much about excluding than more about objection to those who come to abuse the natives so to speak. Unionists do not need to be assimilated to be Irish.

  • “We’ll get back to integration and assimilation”

    Word, it’s not going very well, is it? I should imagine that the roots of many Unionists go back well before the 17th century Plantation whereas some of the roots of many Nationalists are much more recent. Your proposal IMO is not only ill-considered, it’s completely impractical.

    Most folks probably have barely a clue about their ancestry prior to 1900 and not that many records go back as far as 1800. Mission impossible, Word.

  • The Word

    I know Christy. I’m sure the public will be glad to hear a republican defend the Orange people. “If all the gombeen people stick together, nobody will notice that we all really gombeen men and we can all march everywhere, somehow managing to avoid civil war, because marching’s not the problem, it’s all those people who don’t believe in gombeenism.”

  • The Word

    I don’t think you understand psychology, Nevin.

    Or indeed words. “The Plantation” of Ulster was the issue.

    Who would say “no” to clearing that up? Who would say “no” to admitting that people were used to fight the battles of a monarchical state? Who would say that that’s not evil?

    Mission very possible. Highly probably, in fact. I think the British will come to understand that ordinary people are not to be used to fight their battles anymore, whether in the PSNI or in my streets.

  • Word I am not sure what any of that means, or if it is some ancient text with particular meaning?

  • Word, I can look at local and family history; it’s not rocket science. Your snapshot in time tells you very little about any of that. The limitations of the Hume analysis were exposed many moons ago. Let folks compose their own identity – and let Big Brother keep out of it.

  • Brian, can you provide a selection of quotes please to aid the conversation?

  • The Word

    Nevin

    “Let folks compose their own identity – and let Big Brother keep out of it”

    That might sound sensible but I can assure you that these people have been on this island, in every part, undermining the natural identity, corrupting the populace where possible and taking advantage of the forceful influence of very Big Brother you want to keep out of it in order to feather their own nests in large part and then they march in the streets to subdue their perceived enemies because their hollowness makes them feel bad and religionising their badness makes them feel a little better.

    Will the British government release these prisoners?

  • Brian Walker

    Sorry you can’t access this. This is the nub of the case

    Extracts

    People involved in Northern Ireland security have told the Financial Times that the UK coalition needs to be alert to the possibility that economic decline is a factor behind a recent spike in terrorist activity.

    A senior police officer said: “What the government needs to think about very carefully are the consequences of disinvesting too early. It’s all very well saying the private sector has got to create more jobs – it’s a statement of the obvious – but just talking about it won’t stop these buggers.”

    The voluntary sector and other outreach services provided to those communities affected comes from the devolved budget, which has been cut by 11 per cent, although this is considerably less than many Whitehall departments.

    Nonetheless, local politicians believe there is a danger essential community work could be undermined. Alex Attwood, social development minister, says: “It is essential that community and voluntary sector groups that do the hard work in areas where other government agencies don’t go are protected.”

    He says the dissidents are “targeting those groups who feel they did not get a dividend from peace”.

  • The only group of people who got the peace dividend were those RUC & UDR personnel who were/are paid millions by the British government…

    There has been no dividend in working-class areas across the Six Counties which suffered horrendously during the conflict. Well, sorry apart from those who cashed in as the new breed of highly-paid community workers who are also members of Provisional Sinn Fein!

    Sadly, in places Ardoyne, Kilwinkie and the Bogside the only benefit from the Peace process has been the release of political prisoners and British troops being removed from active patrols in these areas.

    Promises were made by S/F Leaders that if the Provisional IRA left the scene, the British and Irish governments would redirect the money used against resistance into rebuilding those communities.

    The global recession might be one excuse but what took place prior to the recession – very, very little!

  • ArdEoin Republican Global Recession did not reduce those mega payouts to which you refer, RE RUC Platnum Handshakes

  • Christy totally agree chara…

    However, can anyone tell us all where indeed did the so-called Peace Dividend go?

    It certainly didn’t go near any disadvantaged areas, that’s 4 sure!

  • Thanks, Brian, those snippets are worthy of further exploration.

    IMO the so called dissidents are carrying on where the PRM left off ie the PRM is the real dissident. I disagree with the senior police officer; he/she may be insufficiently familiar with the nuances of our politics.

    The voluntary and community sectors have done tremendous, even ground-breaking work. Unfortunately some of that work has been damaged by the presence of paramilitaries as well as by inadequate supervision of government, EU, IFI and other forms of public funding.

    Have any of the Big Three newspapers reported on the SAVER/NAVER fraud allegations (broadcast on BBC NI Spotlight)?

    Surely this story, which was reported in the Mirror on August 2 2010, raises serious questions about the effectiveness of the Community Relations Council’s verification process and the merits of the Review of Victims Funding report, a report published in March 2010.

    Is it possible that the BBC has touched on the tip of quite a large iceberg so far as the public funding of voluntary organisations is concerned? A sample audit of money received, say, for commissioned work and figures recorded in the books might yield ‘interesting’ results.

    A friend passed me this note yesterday: “”Due to a technical problem with the current legislation, the Charity Commission for Northern Ireland has not yet begun to register charities.”

    CCNI is an NDPB which comes under the auspices of Alex Attwood’s Department of Social Development. Some charities are allegedly no what they seem so a DSD minister needs to get this technicality resolved ASAP.

  • “where indeed did the so-called Peace Dividend go?”

    AER, some will have been put to very good use; some will have been fed to white elephants in the form of grandiose projects; some will have gone to the Border Counties of Ireland; some will have gone into the profits of developers and some will have gone into the hands of the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ paramilitary godfathers. As I’ve noted in an earlier thread, verification of expenditure seems to have been relatively poor.

  • aquifer

    Too many young men with not enough to do.

    If only we could find a dictator or two.

    Mmmm.

  • Behaner

    Brian,do you not think 200 million is a rather large sum to spend on dissident sinn fein,considering that the british labour partys 1972 investment in the project has been quite successfull.And that’s only the ‘extras’.Devolution has been in place now for quite along time.Of course,pro-sinn feiners wil claim a victory 2morrow,a hollow victory 4 shallow people,and the rich can dine on satire,but the best amongst the poor are no longer merely rebellous,and wild for revenge,no,a new demonic force has awoken which no power from rome to dublin will quell,demonic in the eyes of the witch-hunter generals,who hear the sound of their own fury in the voices of the downtrodden,the dispossed,the battered and the broken,i’m sure u too will hear this sound,if you listen carefully,it sounds like a whisper,but echos like a pack of hounds,you will know this whisper as VENGENCE-BEWARE THE THING THATS COMING,BEWARE THE RISEN PEOPLE VENGENCE-BEWARE THE THING THATS COMING,BEWARE THE RISEN PEOPLE
    VENGENCE-BEWARE THE THING THATS COMING,BEWARE THE RISEN PEOPLE VENGENCE-BEWARE THE THING THATS COMING,BEWARE THE RISEN PEOPLE VENGENCE-BEWARE THE THING THATS COMING,BEWARE THE RISEN PEOPLE VENGENCE-BEWARE THE THING THATS COMING,BEWARE THE RISEN PEOPLE

    Too many young men with not enough to do.

    aquifer,aquifer,that’s rather unpleasant dear boy,quite sexist
    and quite frankly rude and politically incorrect.Whatever do they teach the childern in school these days.Too many young men with not enough to do.What about the females dear chap.

    Too many young men/women with not enough to do.Too many young men/women with not enough to do.Too many young men/women with not enough to do.Too many young men/women with not enough to do.Too many young men/women with not enough to do.Too many young men/women with not enough to do.Too many young men/women with not enough to do.Too many young men/women with not enough to do.Too many young men/women with not enough to do.

  • between the bridges

    hardon re al murray…where the peace diving go? lamo maybe the winners got a bonus…?

  • Secret Squirrel

    No FT no comment.

    Apologies if this approach doesn’t work either. I suspect it will.

  • Secret Squirrel

    No it doesn’t. 🙁

    But I was able to access the FT article by right-clicking the link provided and Copy Link Location.
    Then Paste what you’re carrying into a Google search.

    The pop-up add doesn’t seem to appear when you do it that way.

  • Secret Squirrel

    My first attempt above doesn’t work using Firefox but it does work if your using Google’s browser, “Google Chrome”.

    I couldn’t be bothered trying it in Internet Explorer ’cause it’s shite.

  • Secret Squirrel

    I note that even the web gurus at the Financial Times haven’t a clue.
    They state…”Please don’t cut articles from FT.com and redistribute by email or post to the web.”

    How to fuck can you cut from a read only source ?

  • Jack Meehan blog: Article plus comment

    “It is time not to forget the past, but to apply the mistakes learned from it and move on toward the future. As stated in the article, erecting more “peace walls” and glorifying the violence of the past is not the pathway to a peaceful and secure future. The youth of Ireland deserve much more. Is it any wonder that they are emigrating by the thousands?

    Jack Meehan, Past National President
    Ancient Order of Hibernians in America”

  • Now here’s a curious quote from Peter Sheridan, ex RUC and PSNI and Co-operation Ireland CEO:

    “We’re trying to pick the people who might be the Martin McGuinness or the Jackie McDonald [an infamous loyalist leader] of the future. The natural leaders”

  • The Word

    “The natural leaders”

    The sheer cynicism of that comment deserves a rebuke that would never be sufficient to deal with its central evil.

    Martin McGuinness has never been the natural leader. He has been a betrayer of the poor, his own people, by virtue of his membership of an organisation that is not in his control or the control of anyone like him. In other words, he’s been taking orders from people who now have a cosy alliance with the British establishment.

    All these people have to do to keep control of a bullyboy eejit like McGuinness is to feed his ego as this stooge Peter Sheridan is doing and let him think he’s serving his people’s interests by controlling crime in the working class estates – which strangely enough is exactly what the bosses wanted him to do. “Keep those thugs from coming near our areas,” I’m sure their saying.

    A natural leader of a Catholic community who, having no natural advantage such as an education to keep him in place is merely a stooge who is kept there fed with titbit instruvtions from the bosses.

  • Mark

    You don’t need to call him Martin McGuinness …..Martin will do .. everyone will know who you’re talking about .

    Is he still giving you dirty looks ?

    Wasn’t he Minister of Edduumackkayshunn for a while .

  • The Word

    Republicans must indeed have a sense of humour, a very black one. It’s a pity they can never tell anyone of the abuse they’re getting at the hands of elements who spent a lot of time laughing their way through the Troubles when 15,000 republicans spent 120,000 years in prison. Who’s the joke on now?

  • Mark

    Did you here the one about the fella who thought people took his silly little sermons seriously ?

    Seriously , did you hear that one ?

  • The Word

    You really just don’t know what the future heralds, Mark.

    Did you hear the one about the Belfast man who went to Louth to save Ireland and found that others think they’re doing that by protecting their people? Maybe those others are higher up than him and even a Mushroom farm soldier like you.

  • Mark

    I knew I’d opened the door as soon I mentioned the Mushroom Farms .

    Does the our Father have a sense of humour ?

    No .. seriously though , what does the future hold ? What does the pope say ? Are you keeping him informed about GE11?

    I met Seamus Mallon in Lazorote of all places … sdlp junket I think – him not me …

    I told him to keep up the good work ( this is while ago now ). He barely acknowledged what I said ….just turned on his heels and walked away as if he’d heard it all before …

  • Word, Peter Sheridan has recently become a Londonderry Port and Harbour Commissioner. The boy’s done well.

  • Nunoftheabove

    ArdEoin Republican

    “There has been no dividend in working-class areas across the Six Counties which suffered horrendously during the conflict”

    – where does your expectation that there ought to have been a dividend derive from ? What form ought it to have taken ? What on earth makes you think that those comunities wuld have been better off now other than for the troubles ? Have you ever visited working class communities in the free state, in Scotland or in England ? Get real, mate.

    “Sadly, in places Ardoyne, Kilwinkie and the Bogside the only benefit from the Peace process has been the release of political prisoners and British troops being removed from active patrols in these areas”.

    – At least acknowledge that those were dividends which have enriched those communities enormously or at least alleviated a lot of the pre-existing misery of them.

    “Promises were made by S/F Leaders that if the Provisional IRA left the scene, the British and Irish governments would redirect the money used against resistance into rebuilding those communities”.

    – chapter and verse, please.

    “The global recession might be one excuse but what took place prior to the recession – very, very little!”

    – blame your elected representatives and/or replace them if you don’t like it. Give a potential foreign invester one single solitary good reason to invest in those communities in the absence of additional incentives.

    You really have got to get yourself beyond this puerile whining mentality and entitlement orientation – your social ecomonomic conditions have nothing – nothing whatsoever – to do with the denaail of national rights you keep complaining about. We live in a tough, competitive and highly imperfect capitalist world whether we like it or not. Play the game and get yourself an education and a job or accept the consequences of layabout lazy ill-educated posturing and sloganeering – try eating all those flags you’re fond of stupidly fluttering about every lamppost if you’re angry about being hungry. Nobody’s listening and you’ll get nothing from it. The self-righteousness coming from your corner is boring, impotent and politically vaccuous.

  • The Word

    Nevin

    There are rewards for those who keep onside with certain people.

    I reluctantly say this, but during the war there were plenty of people keeping onside and that’ll never change.

    You can point up all the good boys you like but that war won’t return to our streets so that we can go through the same cowardice again, or indeed perceived bravery.

    Peace is our way. That way will not be thwarted.

    We know all the tricks, Nevin. We invented some of them. So we know where we’re going and how to get there. And we have a decided advantage over all others, having framed the Agreement in our language.

  • Rory Carr

    “There are rewards for those who keep onside with certain people.”

    Indeed there are, as was no better demonstrated than the career of SDLP leader Gerry, Lord Fitt.

  • The Word

    RC

    At least Gerry Fitt was his own man, standing on his own two feet, not taking instructions from gangsters, and betraying his own people.

    Gerry Fitt deserved his rewards. He never betrayed anyone about what was the right thing to do.

  • “having framed the Agreement in our language.”

    The Word, the 1998 Agreement self-evidently isn’t in Hume’s language. For Hume, Unionism was merely a tradition on the island of Ireland. What makes you imagine that Trimble would have put his name to a Hume document? The Hume analysis, as I’ve already said, was superseded by the Stepping Stones approach and this in its turn was superseded during the coarse of the 1998 negotiations.

    Sadly, your hopes for a peaceful future are unlikely to be fulfilled. There’s been a long history of tribal violence here, violence which long precedes the Plantation of Ulster. Perhaps it’s in the shared genes.

  • “We know all the tricks, Nevin.”

    I see you’ve returned to the nebulous ‘we’, The Word. Can You explain why the Catholic Church ditched the SDLP’s constitutional nationalism for SF’s slightly constitutional republicanism; John Hume for Gerry Adams?

  • The Word

    Nevin

    Trimble was distracted into trying to humiliate Sinn Fein as we planned.

    We’re not so sure about your future but ours will be peaceful.

    The Catholic Church never did that. They’ve no intention of going down with Gerry Adams. There are clever men in the Catholic Church, needless to say. They might be said to be using their influence. Some of them might have been jealous of John Hume and the SDLP at a certain point but they’re an international organisation that knows where to position itself.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Word

    Yeah that might also explain why the appallingly badly worded Agreement also doesn’t even trouble itself with defining what the problem it purports to provide a solution to actually is…or was. Shallowness and complete emptiness have of course been commonplace within the SDLP for a very long time but even some of those people would be able to understand that they’re not quite the same thing.

  • “The Catholic Church never did that.”

    You’ll find the detail’s in Ed Moloney’s Secret History of the IRA. The Stepping Stones process was endorsed by Cardinal O Fiaich and the future Cardinal Rigali, then director of the English section of the Vatican Secretariat of State. Hume had been the Church’s man of choice back in Derry in 1968 when it perceived its institutions to be under threat from the hoped for socialist ‘revolution’. By the time of the SS process Hume provided useful cover for Charlie Haughey.

  • “defining what the problem”

    Nun, I don’t imagine that any such definition would have been acceptable to the various parties to the Agreement.

  • The Word

    Nun

    Sour grapes.

    Nevin

    Ed Moloney is a mushroom farm man. Some people got rid of O’Fiaich because he was not Roman enough. But you know we were Roman enough and that’s why we’re still poised to assert ourselves. Of course we do everything we do for everybody and even the great UUP starting to realise that the Agreement was ours in the sense that it undermined their arguments – I wonder who told them that -won’t defeat our position as we write the script for everyone. That’s why we have relative peace.

    I think your vanity wants to destroy that and that simply won’t be possible. Or maybe that’s what we want.

  • lamhdearg

    word,
    Is that the royal “we”.

  • The Word, if you look a little more closely at the Agreement you’ll see that it isn’t ‘yours’; it’s an agreement between several parties with opposing constitutional aspirations.

    O Fiaich died of a heart attack while on a trip to Lourdes.

    Where does vanity come in? An appreciation of the different constitutional aspirations doesn’t require a degree in rocket science 🙂

    As for the ‘tricks’, I’ve already exposed that little deception about accountability in policing. There are others but I might as well keep some of my powder dry. I am a little surprised that you should take pride in dishonesty.

  • The Word

    Nevin

    I know, Nevin, the UUP might be reading these posts or maybe others will simply explain to them – that their constitutional position is less certain than thought. But, you know, when you spend your entire history abusing people, especially those less well than you, you can be counted on to never fail to seek to abuse those thrown up to take your attention while those who focus on doing the good thing get their work done.

    Vanity comes in when the UUP start to panic, probably in connivance with the DUP, and somehow start to argue for a paid opposition, like in Britain, just so that we can hear the hollow battles of the phoney war.

    And look at the phoney wars in this sphere. There’s FF FG, but at least the Irish will have a laugh about it. There’s Tory LibDem Labour, with all the major players from the same boarding schools and rich families, all trying hard, but never hard enough to do anything worthwhile to make the world better. Then there’s REpublican Democrat and that reality that every candidate needs very large donations to keep afloat.

    I think our system avoids the phoney wars and people are focussed away from distractions like the national ego needing underscored. We have a society that focusses on people.

    But you never know with us. We might be interested in going to the next phase.

    Dishonesty – that came on to this island with the British.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Word

    Sour grapes ?! LOL – nice try, chum.

  • The Word, it would be easier to respond to your comments if you could bring a little more clarity and consistency to your responses. You’ve just jumped from my ‘vanity’ to UUP ‘vanity’ – and you still haven’t defined your ‘we’. What are you running away from? What have you to fear? 🙂

    BTW Societies focus on, er, people. Perhaps you’re referring to that rather quaint society called the Society of Jesus aka the Jesuits.

  • The Word

    Nevin

    “You’ve just jumped from my ‘vanity’ to UUP ‘vanity’”

    There seems to be a commonality. You seem to be defending their position. Maybe you’re doing it out of duty. Maybe you are one. Maybe you’re making them nervous. But maybe that’s because you’re taking positions here that are giving them an exposure to the callousness and hollowness of the position adopted by the British and them over history. Maybe they have never realised how bad they were. Or how evil the Plantation was.

    We are the good people, Nevin. There is no-one who can question our authority. We direct this society and most people know that we do it for everybody’s benefit, so they don’t object. Some are jealous but if they had been thinking of the best thing for everybody they wouldn’t have been caught napping.

    “Running Away”, “fear” – You’re writing your own script Nevin.

    I have many roles, Nevin.

  • The Word, all those maybes. And then all that certainty about your ‘society’. We’ve seen some examples of bad behaviour by members of the Catholic hierarchy and the SDLP leadership so that would seem to rule them out of this list of ‘good people’. Quakers would appear to have the best reputation amongst our numerous faith groups but they may well have a few black sheep too.

    I confess to writing my own script but ‘running away’ isn’t my style; I take the view that all authority should be questioned.