“It is a doughnut approach to policy and economics…”

The Irish Examiner‘s Conor Ryan points to the hole in the doughnut that is Sinn Féin’s economic proposals for Ireland.

Its tactics are concentrated on tapping those who have money, or who at least enjoyed the trappings during the Celtic Tiger.

It hopes to bring in €120m on an increased second homes tax, it wants to find €285m on abolishing mortgage interest relief for landlords and €96m on raised capital gains tax. These appear to be realistic targets.

But the more precise measures on the outside of the tax base can only bring in so much. They are not enough to deal with that bit in the middle.

There is promise of a wealth tax of 1% tax on incomes raised among those with assets in excess of €1m. This would be expected to generate €1bn.

Sinn Féin wants to standardise a whole host of tax reliefs. This accounts of €1.1bn of its recovery plan. That is a big €2.1bn hole in a promise to generate €4.7bn in a full year.

Mr Doherty carefully argued that it had asked for figures but was not supplied them by the Department of Finance.

So it took its best estimate.

Conveniently, its calculation was enough to explain how the doughnut can be packed out if it got into power.

But while this might buy some votes among key demographics it is unlikely to pay the bills.

Meanwhile, in the Irish Times, Deaglán de Bréadún takes a look at the party’s manifesto

SINN FÉIN’S election manifesto is like a Late Late Show giveaway: there’s something for everybody in the audience. And despite his history, Gerry Adams does it with a smile worthy of Ryan, Pat or even Gaybo in his day.

As he points out

Virtually every hour, on the hour, Labour reminds us that the other parties, including Sinn Féin, supported the bank guarantee back in September 2008. The republicans backed away almost immediately but Eamon Gilmore and Joan Burton still keep the memory green.

Sinn Féin justifies its initial stance on the basis of protecting the depositors and it still wants to do that, but in most other respects the banks would be cut loose and abandoned to their fate.

You can hear Gerry’s friend, Fidel Castro, cheering this approach although even he discovered, with the collapse of the Soviet Union, that it’s a harsh world out there and survival can be a huge challenge.

A Sinn Féin government would certainly make people feel good about their sovereignty: there would be no need to worry about Prof Morgan Kelly’s scenario of depending on “the kindness of strangers” because the strangers wouldn’t want to know.

Indeed.

, , , , , , ,

  • ItwasSammyMcNally

    The Irish Times – the dog that didnt bark as the (economic)house fell down around it.

  • The Word

    “A Sinn Féin government would certainly make people feel good about their sovereignty: there would be no need to worry about Prof Morgan Kelly’s scenario of depending on “the kindness of strangers” because the strangers wouldn’t want to know.”

    Ah, but Martin’s on good terms with the British, and he might be able to persuade them to take the orphan Irish in. I think there’s a little Brit inside every Shinner and that the way they throw about this “default” word seems to have factored in that only the British will come to Ireland’s aid when their economy threatens to go red.

    “Default” – means default on Independence. But, look, Martin might lead our interim British government.

  • Greenflag

    ‘It hopes to bring in €120m on an increased second homes tax’

    Hopes being the operative word . Such a tax in present circumstances could push many of these second homes especially those owned by the not so wealthy onto the market thus depressing present prices even further and creating even more negative equity for many of those already negativised .

    ‘it wants to find €285m on abolishing mortgage interest relief for landlords ‘

    For quite a few landlords particularly those who bought at the top of the market this would probably increase their current losses and force them into sale of properties or trying to raise rents in an already depressed market . The overall result being ‘negative ‘ for tenants as landlords cut back on maintenance etc etc .

    Given current ’emigration ‘ trend numbers and the oversupply in the residential property market there are slim pickings here for any incoming government and they could very easily worsen an already depressed market .

    A 1% wealth tax seems fair enough but should’nt be restricted to those with 1 million in assets . A half a million in ‘assets ‘ ( liquid + property + pension funds ) should be the starting point.

  • Pete Baker

    Greenie

    “A 1% wealth tax seems fair enough…”

    From the Irish Examiner article

    That is an ideological issue. The mathematical ones are not as straightforward.

  • 241934 john brennan

    Like its promise of a united Ireland, Sinn Fein’s ‘burn the bondholders’ policy lacks credibility.

    Not just like the doughnut with a big hole in the middle, but more like a polo mint without the mint

  • Greenflag

    I know and understand the argument Pete that the wealthy can’t be taxed because they’ll all leave and take their wealth elsewhere . It’s an argument thats heard in the City (London) and Wall St . And it’s an argument that is having less and less resonance around the world as ever greater numbers of the FMC’s ( formerly middle class ) are emisserated . One of the not so well noticed aspects of the growth in the financial sector economy in the USA & UK and ROI in the period 2000 to 2008 was the increasing gap between the favoured few who made most of the money and the ‘middling’ levels who did better than other sectors but who were left far behind .

    And yes the mathematics are not straightforward but they never were in the 2000 -to 2008 period either but nobody cared then either .

    I don’t think SF will make any major electoral spurt because of the ‘tax the wealthy ‘ approach . Promising to hang the bankers could however be a real winner ;)?

  • aquifer

    Marx was shocked to find that there was only ever a few days of supplies in the warehouse to be looted or expropriated.

    Should we wait for Sinn Fein to be surprised again?.

  • pippakin

    If I compare SFs financial policy on anything the nearest comparison I can come up with is Swiss, not their banks which is regrettable but their Cheese which is full of holes.

    It would hardly make a dent in the debt if SF took every penny off of every millionaire in Ireland, they really do need to learn Arithmetic before they try Math. I recommend Gerry Adams buy an abacus, start at the beginning.

  • Greenflag

    pippikin ,

    ‘the nearest comparison I can come up with is Swiss, not their banks which is regrettable ‘

    Is it ? Think again . The Swiss Banks have been the world’s biggest money launderers and financial refuge for Europe’s criminal and political classes since the Middle Ages . They have stashed away everything they could get their hands on from the Nazi’s stolen loot from Europe’s jews in WW2 to the Pope’s ‘collections’ to tax evaders from the USA to Tierra del Fuego. Only recently they ‘admitted’ sending collectors to the USA to send American ‘tax ‘evasion money via encrypted code to the untouhable Swiss banks . The fact that this was breaking USA law did’nt bother these banks the least – until they were caught of course .

    I would think that in any ‘comparison ‘ between the next TD for Louth and UBS – Mr Adams has nothing to worry about .

    ‘start at the beginning.’

    Unfortunately the ‘abacus’ which in the hands of an adept user can be extremely fast and accurate it cannot make the millions of calculations per second that the Deutche Borse /New York Stock Exchange combo will make as they create even more ‘paper’ via derivatives trading as they rush to create the next ‘bubble ‘. And as for those with the MBA’s and the hundreds of IMF and ECB economists and Finance Ministers of the major powers -just look at how they are coping with the world economy ? Interest rates near zero and the banks haven’t money to lend to get the economy to ‘grow’ ?

    The ‘derivative’ traders and hedge fund tyros were obviously too far ahead of the politicians -so you may have a point with your recommendation for Gerry Adams after all . Bit don’t stop there – Continue with same for Messrs Martin, Kenny, Gilmore and Cameron, Obama , Merkel , Sarkozy etc etc etc .

  • Pete Baker

    “I know and understand the argument Pete that the wealthy can’t be taxed because they’ll all leave and take their wealth elsewhere .”

    Greenie

    This isn’t about the ideological argument for or against a wealth tax.

    As the linked articles point out, other European countries have had one and it will probably buy some votes among key demographics.

    But the sums in Sinn Féin’s specific proposals don’t add up.

  • Pete Baker

    I could add that Sinn Féin’s doughnut approach to policy doesn’t end with economics.

    Just look at what their manifesto has to say about Irish unity…

  • pippakin

    Greenflag

    The Swiss, thanks to their banks, are not broke, we are,thanks to ours.

    There are always criminals especially blue collar ones. One of the things I try to do is make sure I don’t vote for one of them.

    The abacus? that seemed like a good starting point for anyone who can’t use a calculator. As you say in the hands of an expert extremely fast and as with calcs as reliable as the user.

  • crafty

    Its not like anyone else’s economic policies have added up either, otherwise we wouldn’t be in the mess we’re in .

    I fancy many folks will put SF as 2nd pref, so wouldn’t be suprised if SF achieve the 15 seat mark target.

    Pearse Doherty has alreay been compared to Padraig Pearse;
    what did that rather clever interviewee say t’other day:
    ” If I was young I’d vote SF ”

    What should the middle-age/class vote, esp having painfully witnessed the establishment crumble, the Church crumble , what or where is the faith to be put in now?

  • crafty

    peteb

    “Just look at what their manifesto has to say about Irish unity…”

    SF have been pressing for a green paper on irish Unity, it really is the next step.
    FF declined this, perhaps the new administration will be more open-minded.
    would you like to see it take root?

  • pippakin

    Pete Baker

    what is the problem with SFs manifesto pledge re Irish unity, apart from its sheer impossibility which they obviously know that is.

  • Kevin Barry

    Is it true that SF were not provided with figures from the DoF? Pretty shocking if so.

    Regarding the burning of bond holders, it’s going to happen in some way, wealth tax, I have no ideological qualms with this either.

    I just find it hilarious that some are on, the usual suspects might I add, attacking the figures etc. Like the others have a clue what they’re doing?

    I think people take great comfort from some Financial spokesman for a party standing up and everything adding up; great, if that helps you get some sleep at night, buy into this. But do you not remember Brian Lenihan standing in front of cameras for a number of years telling us how the road ahead is difficult, but sure look at my numbers and figures showing how it’ll be all right?

    This, btw, is not me letting SF off the hook, I expect that they will have to up their game as they have credibility issues to put it mildly, but I take little comfort in someone providing projections that are anything more than 2 years in the field of finance as I feel it’s a guess thereafter and a fairly poor one at that.

    Pete Baker: this isn’t me sniping btw but I hope you will put the same effort in when the other parties release their figures and that this isn’t going to be pretty one sided stuff, otherwise this is fairly disappointing.

  • Greenflag

    pete,

    ‘But the sums in Sinn Féin’s specific proposals don’t add up.’

    Neither do Mr Cameron Osborne’s according to Justice Secretary Ken Clarke .

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12438091.

    As for the IMF as per their own audit their abasement and grovelling at the feet of the former USA and UK and indeed the present USA administration makes their ‘medecine’ look more like something that those homeopaths proffer;) And while I understand the need for the ECB to prevent the collapse of several German and French banks and for HMG to do the same for some British banks I don’t see why the Irish taxpayer has to pay for any of their ‘rescue ‘ efforts .

    As for SF’s Irish unity manifesto well at least they can be accused of dreaming – The other parties are so busy saying nuttin that you’d wonder if they still have not woken up to the fact that the economic morass they led us into was but a bad dream ? . I’ll not be surprised to see SF make their 15 seat total . If they had been better prepared with better candidates they could have doubled that number this time around . I suspect that the more SF are elected the more we’ll be made aware that there is an ‘opposition’ in the Dail. I won’t be expecting much from FF or FG’s junior partner anyway .

    We are in an unusual time in this election – in that the formerly respected ‘institutions of the Irish State – the RC Church , the Banks , the main Political Parties, have all been discredited in recent years and there is no sign that any of them have yet either recognised the situation much less come to terms with this new ‘world ‘-much less summon up any coherent response to the challenge facing their ‘State ”

    I suspect that MV’s remarks on another thread namely that our established politicians will be merely changing deck chairs on the Titanic in this election will hve been proven true by the time it’s over 🙁

  • JeanMeslier

    Kevin barry
    “..Regarding the burning of bond holders, it’s going to happen in some way..”

    When SF announced this idea it was met with hilarity by the same incestuous journos as listed above. Last week the mood changed to outrage about this idea. As this week ends it now raises a few eyebrows of investigative possibility.
    I believe by the end of next week we will see U-turns before our very eyes from some within the Free State parties. The begrudging acceptance is already creeping in in the RTE and TV3 debating studios.
    I have been canvassing with comrades in Drogheda. The ordinary people who were denied the Celtic Tiger are tuned in. They’ve had enough of the bullshit. Wearing a tie and calling SF policies illiterate doesn’t work anymore. It’s time for real change. The way of doing politics within Leinster House changes in March – forever

  • percy

    Quite Jean,
    Besides anyone listening to PrimeTime 10/2/11
    will realise we’re looking at a possible 300 billion debt; which is impossible to pay.
    FG’s Peter Mathews was on the same page with SF’s Pearse Doherty who came across brilliantly.
    Whilst the British sounding guy senator shane ross ( gallic nose ) was crying “burn em “.

  • Kevin Barry

    JeanMeslier

    I don’t want this thread to start to go off on a tangent, but, I will say that, correct me if I’m wrong but our bail out was supposed to stop the spread of this sovereign debt crisis, but we have seen it start to spread to effect Portugal, Spain and maybe Belgium and Italy as well.

    I hope I am proved wrong, I would like to be proved wrong, I really do and if I am I will be the first person on here to hold my hands up, but the system is being propped up so that French, German and British banks don’t suffer any more loses and the system clearly isn’t working as it was originally intended to.

    I think also, a lot of people have fairly antiquated notions of bankruptcy and the restructuring of debt, linking it with morality, shame etc etc. Why are we wasting our time paying off something that we cannot possibly pay? Have a talk with the bondholders and restructure it.

    Am I being too simplistic? Perhaps, I don’t for one minute pretend that it will be a lunchtime discussion with a few drinks afterwards and the jolly bankers etc get on their planes the next afternoon with a fuzzy head after a night on the tear experiencing some Irish hospitality, but I do think that what is happening at present is that the guys in charge in the South aren’t facing up to the situation and they haven’t for a number of years.

  • Cynic2

    “As this week ends it now raises a few eyebrows of investigative possibility.”

    …by Journos who are running out of ideas of what angle to take and are even less economically literate than Gerry

  • JeanMeslier

    “…by Journos who are running out of ideas of what angle to take and are even less economically literate than Gerry..”

    Fair enough Cyn.
    But the term economically illiterate can be applied right across the political spectrum. You know that.
    What none of the rest of the leaders, standing in this election, have a right to is the status of statesman. That right is exclusive to Gerry Adams.

    Do you agree with me that more of the commentators and others with access to the airwaves are coming round to SF’s analysis?

  • redhugh78

    Kevin Barry,

    ‘Pete Baker: this isn’t me sniping btw but I hope you will put the same effort in when the other parties release their figures and that this isn’t going to be pretty one sided stuff, otherwise this is fairly disappointing.’

    You may get used to being disappointed a lot re Mr Baker’s articles. Anti-SF Obsessive Compulsive Disorder I think it’s called..

  • JeanMeslier

    Kevin Barry
    IMO You are not wrong.
    The establishment which ran the 26 Co.’s for almost 90 years have fcuked it up. They are now burying their collective heads in the sand, whilst their rottweilers attack the Shinners because that is what they (the journos) are good at, and they know where their priorities lie.

    Big negotiators are needed post election.

  • Pete Baker

    Guys

    Disagree, by all means, and argue against something that’s said in the linked articles, after reading them of course.

    Anything else is just distraction tactics.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Being other than FF may be a necessary condition for electability in this election but it ought not to be a sufficient one. And this self-pitying SF position is wearing very thin indeed.

    Welcome to the dirty game of free state politics boys, surprise us just this once by playing it fair and straight and at least try avoiding overtly insulting the public by, like, knowing your bloody sums and that. Too much to ask ?

  • Kevin Barry

    Pete Baker, please do elaborate.

    Nunoftheabove, I think that’s a fair point, however, I would add that if the DoF is unwilling to provide you with the sums and figures re projections and data that they have then you kind of have to make it up on the hoof, would you not agree?

  • Nunoftheabove

    Kevin Barry

    Not having the detail to hand and using informed guestimates in lieu of confirmations is one thing, not having a coherent set of numbers or underpinning arguments which demonstrate a sufficient grasp on the fundamentals of the problem is unpardonable.

  • Kevin Barry

    Such as?

  • Nunoftheabove

    How are they going to pay for the recapitalization of the proposed merged and nationalized AIB/BoI (having burnt the bondholders, told the lender of last resort to ‘clear off home’ and closed Anglo and Nationwide, as they propose) and how much do they think that will cost for example ? I can’t find any reference to either.

  • tacapall

    Noneoftheabove have you watched “The American Dream By The Provocateur Network” very enlightening. Hopefully the American inspired revolution sweeping the Arab countries at present will be replicated in corporate controlled America. Its obvious theres not many real politicians in America.

    “Just when I thought the banksters couldn’t possibly shock me anymore… they did.
    We were finally granted the honor and privilege of finding out the specifics, a limited one-time Federal Reserve view, of a secret taxpayer funded “backdoor bailout” by a small group of unelected bankers. This data release reveals “emergency lending programs” that doled out $12.3 TRILLION in taxpayer money – $3.3 trillion in liquidity, $9 trillion in “other financial arrangements.”

    The very scale of the Fed bailout points to the scale of the financial crash and the criminality that fostered it…. The entire US capitalist economy rested on a huge Ponzi scheme that was bound to collapse…
    The banks were able to take the cheap cash from the Fed and lend it back to the government at double and quadruple the interest rates they were initially charged―pocketing many billions in the process….
    The ongoing saga of the looting of the economy by the financial elite puts the lie to the endless claims that “there is no money” for jobs, housing, education or health care. The ruling class is awash in money.

  • Nunoftheabove

    tapacall

    Doesn’t answer my question. The economics or the SWP or Eirigi don’t cut much ice – mercifully enough – with the electorate in Ireland or in the USA, although I would be hugely surprised if you know much about the latter anyway or about the country’s politicians. You’ve never said a single thing that I’ve read which would suggest otherwise.

  • tacapall

    Nunoftheabove hahaha. Here, who prints American dollar bills, then hands it to unelected global gangsters who own the Federal Reserve, its owners also own or controll all the central banks of the world along with various other global necessities needed by mankind to survive, who then charge the American goverment interest for borrowing it, who in turn tax American workers to pay for it. These same Global Gangsters employ the majority of the American politicians along with the majory of Politicians of EU countries. Money make the world go round especially when you have your own printing machine. By the way what happened to the last president who dared take on the Federal Reserve – JF Kennedy

  • Nunoftheabove

    tapacall

    Another post in which you fail to address a single point made, a single question asked. It’s enough to make the lumpen Garland groupies within the sticks seem like intellectual heavyweights.

  • tacapall

    The point is what the f… would you know about economic intellect of Sinn Fein if the wool is being pulled over your eyes in America. Sinn Fein are right, this country, all of it cannot be allowed to be sold to foriegn investors, parasites who privatise whatever resource needed by mankind for profit – water being one of them.

  • Nunoftheabove

    tapacall

    Why (and by whom ?) would the wool be being pulled over my eyes even if I was in ‘America’ and what on earth does water privatization have to do with what’s under discussion please ?

    If you’re unable to answer the questions asked and the points made then it’s not dishonourable to admit it. Good advice which Mr Adams ought to consider taking once in a while, incidentally.

  • Kevin Barry

    Hi Nunoftheabove, apologies for the delay with my reply.

    How do I think they’re going to cost something without the DoF providing them with figures and their plan on doing what no one else in Europe is willing to do? As I have stated before, I have little or no faith in someone who provides economic projections that are more than 2 years old as they’re usually proven to be incorrect.

    Tacapall, I think you’re going somewhat off topic here. The point that Nunoftheabove is making is a valid one, show me your figures SF on some key matters. The point I would make is that it is difficult to do this without the DoF providing you with the numbers. Also, if they did provide hypothetical figures then DoF would release their numbers and SF would be hounded, a lot like now.

    Furthermore, I would use an analogy regarding the burning of Anglo’s bondholders. I may be paraphrasing here but Dodd and Frank in Security Analysis would say about valuing a security that it’s a lot like guessing someone’s weight; I don’t need to know your exact weight to be able to tell that you are overweight.

    The deal we have whereby the South is paying 100 cents in the euro to bondholders and has taken on more debt from the IMF and EU is a bad deal, I don’t need to be George Soros to tell you that, I can see that.

    Do you all honestly think that if we burn the bondholders that the ECB and EU will walk away and give the 2 finger salute? I personally don’t as I think it’s a case of financial MAD in Europe and it would be just as bad for Germany et al as for Ireland, so something will have to give and a better deal would be thrashed out.

    I too would like to see some figures on how BoI and AIB would be recapitalised, but if the DoF doesn’t show the Shinners the figures it’s all guess work and their’s really no point going through this.

    I am a capitalist, which may come as a surprise to a number of you here. I don’t agree with the cronyism that is going on here whereby a number of continental bankers made massive mistakes and they’re not being punished for it. I wish I could gamble and even if I lose I win. I do not for one instance believe that Ireland shouldn’t face the music for it’s faults and failings over the past number of years, but I also think that everyone who makes a mistake should pay for it.

    We’re all in this together…

  • tacapall

    Noneoftheabove your spot on I must be honest, Im not the type of person who would want to know how to rob Peter to pay Paul or how much it costs to keep those who control the purse strings happy but I do know those snakeoil salesmen politicians who turned a blind eye to what the finincial institutions were up to are parasites who became very wealthy at a very dear cost to the Irish people. If we dont default our childrens’ children will still be paying the debt, if we do default well its back to stoneage times where we have to barter for goods, I quite like the idea of swapping some shiny beads and a blanket for some land somewhere.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Tapacall

    I don’t anyone who does want to pay on it but renegotiating on, say a ceiling of 30 c to the Euro and/or a ‘debt for equity swap or nothing doing guys’ position seems about as moral as what has transpired so far so all’s fair in love, war and, it would appear, economics. Doing the right thing now’s for suckers, I’m afraid. No point playing the rules according to Hoyle if the dealer can give twice as many cards to some players as others half-way through the hand and expect the other players to say ‘fair enough, you know best’.

    You don’t need to be a non-capitalist to be outraged at how the free market’s being allowed to be perverted here and either we have a level playing field for investors and speculators or we don’t; either there is some form of correlation between risk and reward or there ain’t. They took the risk, they should take whatever reward and/or security they’d ordinarily get or they should be told to stuff it. I’ve said this before but I’ll say it again. In banking, the only two things which matter on the possible downside of any loan before you sanction it:

    (i) calculating the probability of default; and
    (ii) calculating the potential for loss given default.

    Those German, Dutch and French banks should be held to accountable by their shareholders for producing those calculations and then they can walk the plank when they’ve done it and their shareholders can have a more realistic expectation of:

    (i) what they can expect to see back from those loans;
    (ii) in what form, and;
    (iii) in what timeline.

    If the lender of last resort is prepared to take the plainly substantial risk of a default then they too aren’t functioning in a manner consistent with their brief and should be forced back to the drawing board early doors – they too should be shamed.

    With a decent negotiator at the helm with a pair of bollocks and some financial cop-on, it’s coming close to ‘game on’ time for the country. It would be truly unforgivable not to set about this issue as to do the ‘right’ thing here morally is to allow the cheats spivs, chancers and bullies to win without a cross word said or a punch being thrown. Elected representatives owe the citizens of the state a huge amount after what they’ve collectively allowed to happen – government and opposition alike – with very very few notable exceptions. Seeing some politicians spitting teeth and blood for the people of the country for a change would help restore some pride and lend some purpose to a lost and leaderless population currently too humiliated and angry to think straight.

    To borrow and misuse a well known northern phrase, Fianna Fail’s legacy to the people of Ireland will be the tears of our children.

  • tacapall

    Noneoftheabove I think morals went out the window long long ago for those who play the markets its all one way for those who, well seem unable to lose. Like any transaction you give me x and I give you y if I dont give you y then you demand your x back. I cant help but think of

    The Protocols of the Elders of Zion

    “A loan is an issue of Government paper which entails an obligation to pay interest amounting to a percentage of the total sum of the borrowed money. If a loan is at 5%, then in 20 years the Government would have unnecessarily paid out a sum equal to that of the loan in order to cover the percentage. In 40 years it will have paid twice; and in 60 thrice that amount, but the loan will still remain as an unpaid debt.
    — Protocols, p. 77

    When money becomes worthless, and it has happened before, how is that debt paid off, do we refuse to pay, and lets be honest about who actually owns all the worlds currency, be then refused credit, how are our children to survive but sell off our natural resouces to these same private bankers so they can recover the debt. The American inspired revolution sweeping the Arab countries points to a frightening future where the Global bankers could actually take a country to “their international court” for payment of those debts. I know a bit far fetched but look at the Depository Trust & Clearing Corporation or the federal reserve, unbelievable but true, untill these global bankers are reeled in, new laws and regulations implemented globally, then there will never be a fair currency system.

    Renegoitating the loan is a short term solution to a long term problem, How long will this solve our problems, like the little dutch boy with his finger in the dyke, another breech will eventually turn up elsewhere. The majority must not suffer for the few and we cannot allow foreign or private influence to control our economy just like America.

  • Nunoftheabove

    tapacall

    Do you believe in the authenticity of the Protols or subscribe to all or any of their contents ?

  • tacapall

    Noneoftheabove “Are you joking” I wasn’t around a thousand years ago and I know its alleged or argued about them being a muslim plot but to be honest Im not interested either way, but I dont think it can be argued that they are not relevent or incorporated into the thinking of some of the global financial institutions in todays society. Im a socialist, Im happy with what I’ve got which is not much but enough to live on.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Tapacall

    No I’m not joking; link to the Hamas thing here too….

    As a socialist then do you not have any interest in sorting the current mess within the framework of the free market and as such content to sit it out on the sidelines or am I misundertanding you ?

  • tacapall

    Noneoftheabove correct I am content to sit it out on the sidelines. Im not a Shinner and there’s no party out there who have the integridy to claim to have socialist values, we are just pawns in their journeys up the social ladder their claims of “For the good of the Country” are in stark contrast to “For the good of the People” Whats the Hamas link you refer to?

  • Nunoftheabove

    tapacall

    Re. the protocols; article 32 of the Hamas covenant refers to it; it’s one of the reasons I’m profoundly suspicious about their motivations and modus operandi and would not countenance discretionary aid to them until they reverse it and make some plausible attenmpt to distinguish between zionism and jewishsness in their party literature and policies and end their determinedly racist and genocidal pronouncements. Many on the so-called left in Ireland and in the UK support Hamas quite openly but see no contradiction in lending them their ‘solidarity’ while at the same time expending their engery challenging the riffraff of the BNP on the strength, partly at least, on their anti-semitism and holocaust denial.

  • tacapall

    Noneoftheabove we are like bystanders watching, listening or reading the goings on around the world for the last few years take Egypt, Tunisia, Jordan, Yemen, Algeria and Sudan these last few weeks and the constant eyeballing by America to Iran – we’ll forget about North Korea for a moment then we have this

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/feb/14/al-qaida-supergrass-77-questions

    Mohammed Junaid Babar’s have been used many times during Irelands history we are only too aware of how the media and the interested parties can make an untruth become truth. I find it alarming that EU leaders to publically state comments like below

    “French president Nicolas Sarkozy has joined David Cameron in condemning multiculturalism as a failure.

    Cameron launched a scathing attack earlier this months on 30 years of multiculturalism in Britain warning that it fostered extremism.

    His damning verdict came just months after German Chancellor Angela Merkel said that multiculturalism in Germany had failed.

    Now Sarkozy has joined the growing number of European leaders who have adopted identical views on multiculturalism.

    He told the French people: ‘We have been too concerned about the identity of the person who was arriving and not enough about the identity of the country that was receiving him.’

    The president made the declaration in a TV debate last night after being asked if the policy of encouraging the religious and cultural differences of immigrants was not working.

    He told viewers: ‘My answer is clearly yes, it is a failure.

    ‘Of course we must all respect differences, but we do not want a society where communities coexist side by side”.

    We’re like the contestants on one of their reality tv shows where they give you some task and you have to act accordingly. Now we hear of protests in Iran –

    The US State Department has begun sending Twitter messages to Iranians in Farsi, alluding to the “historic role” social media have played in mass protests against Iran’s 2009 disputed presidential polls.

    The Twitter feeds in the Iranian language began Sunday as US officials accused Iran of hypocrisy by supporting the anti-government revolt in Egypt but seeking to prevent anti-government demonstrations in Iran.

    Is this about Democracy or the expansion plans of those architects of the free market you were talking about earlier.

    As for Hamas – Well thats a hard circle to square because im not religious and an Irishman, I am aware of their position, this goes back thousands of years there seems no answer but you cannot label the palestinian people terrorists because they democratically elected politicians that you dont like or trust. Refusing aid to those palestinians because of it is well, being unfriendly.

  • Nunoftheabove

    tapacall

    America has missed two very easy wins in both the Egyptian and iranian social unheaavels and we should all regret that – they didn’t even particularly need to do much other than send solidarity to the democratic elements.

    I’m not labelling Palestinian people terrorists, to be clear. I regret their democratic choices and reserve the right not to esteem it while of course I recognize it on its own terms. I regret it by no means leastly as those choices will limit their own freedoms if their support for Hamas continues. Investing your expectations and those of your children in theocratic suicide bombers won’t get the decent people of Palestine the freedoms to which they are entitled and will distort their development as a people just as theocracies everywhere do. Let’s be clear, there is nothing liberationist about theocracy and nothing – literally nothing – within it which provides hope, meaning, decent morality or substance for the people of Palestine any more than it does people anywhere else in the world.

  • tacapall

    Come on now noneoftheabove, You know whats done in public and whats done in private are two different things can you not even consider the possibility that that this whole Arab revolution thing is being manipulated, that some terrorist attacks around the world are being stagemanaged, all by the same people.

    Your views of the Palestinian people’s choice is echoed here by those opposed to Sinn Fein being in government even though Sinn Fein has jumped through the required respectability hoops, are they truely the Sinn Fein of the 80s, its an entrenched position with no room for maneuver except on your terms. The suicide bombers are a tactic, uncivilised for those who morals are christian but no different than dropping a nuclear device on men women and children. we have to be brutally honest if we are going to have a conscience or a set of morals that we use to decide whats right or wrong.

  • Nunoftheabove

    tapacall

    Say a bit more about the stagemanagement if you would – are you going down the conspiracy route ?

    As for suicide bombing, I can assure you that suicide bombing is not just morally unsound to christians – it’s counter to any form of human ethics that I’m aware of that I’d regard as morally sound.

  • tacapall

    Nunoftheabove maybe you could start with the London tube station bombings, The inquest, The cctv camera’s that were conveniently not working and “suicide bombers” having been shot at Canary Wharf. and goggle for “7/7 Ripple Effect” full length movie.

    Basra, September 19, 2005

    “Iraqi police sources in Basra told the BBC the ‘two British men were arrested after failing to stop at a checkpoint. There was an exchange of gunfire. The men were wearing traditional Arab clothing, and when the police eventually stopped them, they said they found explosives and weapons in their car. It’s widely believed the two British servicemen were operating undercover.”

    “Iraqi leader, Fattah al-Sheikh said that police had ‘caught two non-Iraqis, who seem to be Britons and were in a car of the Cressida type. It was a booby-trapped car laden with ammunition and was meant to explode in the centre of the city of Basra.”

    Who were these people? Quoting from The Scotsman:

    “British defence sources told the Scotsman (9/20/05) that the soldiers were part of an “undercover special forces detachment” set up this year to “bridge the intelligence void” in Basra, drawing on ‘special forces’ experience in Northern Ireland and Aden, where British troops went ‘deep’ undercover in local communities to try to break the code of silence against foreign forces.”

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/latest-al-qaeda-boogie-man-was-killed-11-months-ago.html

    Anwar al-Awlaki, the Al-Qaeda leader who supposedly masterminded last month’s plane bomb plot is the latest terrorist boogie man to have risen from the grave to exact his revenge. The American-born cleric is perhaps the most complex of these characters.

    As we reported last month, every indication points to Awlaki being a double agent working for US intelligence. He has been involved in almost every terror plot over the last couple of years, from directing the underwear bomber, who was allowed to board the plane by order of the US State Department aided by a well-dressed man who got Abdulmutallab on the airliner despite the fact that he was on a terror watchlist and had no passport, to advising Fort Hood shooter Major Nidal Malik Hasan. Authorities have engaged in a cover-up of what happened at Fort Hood after they ordered Private Lance Aviles to delete cell phone footage of the attack.

    Awlaki was also the spiritual leader of the alleged 9/11 hijackers, a fact that didn’t seem to concern Pentagon top brass who invited him to dine with them just months after the September 11 attacks despite the fact that he had personally colluded with the very hijackers who were alleged to have slammed Flight 77 into the Pentagon.

    The US Special Operations Command’s Able Danger program identified the hijackers and their accomplices long before 9/11, and would undoubtedly have also picked up Awlaki.

    Some things are just unbelievable because we refuse to believe the wool is being pulled over our eyes, look at Tony Blair and the decision to invade Iraq over WMD, biological weapons etc – none were ever found but he has become a very very wealthy man

    UK Daily Mail
    Friday, March 19th, 2010

    Tony Blair waged an extraordinary two-year battle to keep secret a lucrative deal with a multinational oil giant which has extensive interests in Iraq.

    “Circumstantial evidence is a very tricky thing, It may seem to point very straight to one thing, but if you shift your own point of view a little, you may find it pointing in an equally uncompromising manner to something entirely different.” – Sherlock Holmes.

  • Nunoftheabove

    tapacall

    I was afraid you were building up to something like this. “Some things are just unbelievable because we refuse to believe the wool is being pulled over our eyes” – I hope you’d agree with me that a great many more things are unbelievable simply as a consequence of them being without any truth or even plausibility to begin with. The human mind is built and has evolved to try to locate patterns and discern order in the world which is good in some ways – it’s where our spirit of inquiry, investigation and experimentation come from; unfortunately it also explains the tendency of the human towards conspiracies where rational evidence appears to conflict, be unpatterned or, in some cases, doesn’t exist or suggest any form of pattern or evidential linkage at all.

    I personally think it’s a lazy and convenient way of viewing the world and often in its own way an avoidance of the truth which may be less palatable, less patterned, but real and truth-based. It’s also almost always a sign that people are allowing other people do their thinking and theorizing for them in order to make sense of the world around them. Have a think about why that might be and reflect on the success of organized religion – religions being the original conspiracy theories – in exploiting the desire of mankind to understand their world for thousands of years without the necessary scientific evidence to do so. Thankfully, today many many more people are content to think for themselves and to pay little heed to the dangerous prattle of priests and the mind-numbing mush of the mullahs.

    By the way reading the Daily Mail isn’t what you want to be reading if you’re half-interested in what’s going on in what I’d call the real world, can I suggest to you..

  • tacapall

    Noneoftheabove obviously we look at things differently maybe thats natures, or in your case god’s way of hedging its bets, the pessimist and the optimist, I can look to the stars and imagine the beyond, there is no end, no predictions of armageddon, no acceptance of truth, because truth is only temporary untill it becomes fact. Like I told you before Im happy the way I am.

  • Nunoftheabove

    tapacall

    God’s just nonsense to me, to be clear. For someone who is happy the way you are you appear to be disconteted with a good deal of what’s going on around you, if I may say so.

    In terms of what you mean by truth only being temporary….I’ll leave that one open I think.

  • tacapall

    Noneoftheabove being happy with what I’ve got is not a blindfold to the happenings around me. I have been round a few corners and I do know the spin and distortion that can be fabricated around truth.

    “In terms of what you mean by truth only being temporary….I’ll leave that one open I think”.

    I suppose what other choice do you have. Considering the fact that once upon a time the victims of Bloody Sunday, the Birmingham six, the Guildford four, the Maguire seven, I could go on and on, were all portrayed as guilty and accused of being terrorists by the same people and their puppets in the media who are waging this “War on Terror. We now know that was a lie, a fabrication by those in control.

  • Nunoftheabove

    tapacall

    “…by the same people and their puppets in the media”. Unless you’re prepared to name names then that’s not in any respect at all literally true (…even temporarily), is it ?

  • Greenflag

    ‘Thankfully, today many many more people are content to think for themselves and to pay little heed to the dangerous prattle of priests and the mind-numbing mush of the mullahs./

    Well yes but somehow in the corridors of Wall St , the City of London , the Irish and other Central Banks and the American Federal Reserve, and the IMF ,and ECB and above all in the boardrooms of the world’s biggest banks there were and still are those who prefer not to think for themselves but merely avert their eyes and play monkey no see, no hear , no speak. We have seen this unthinking deliberate blindness here in the Republic and we see it elsewhere as well.

    excerpt from BBC

    ‘Now he(Bernard Madoff) has told the New York Times a variety of banks and hedge funds “had to know” about his Ponzi scheme.

    Madoff claimed banks and hedge funds who had dealings with his investment advisory firm showed a “willful blindness” toward his activities.

    He also alleged they failed to examine discrepancies between his regulatory filings and other information.

    “But the attitude was sort of, ‘If you’re doing something wrong, we don’t want to know’,” he said.

    Madoff’s scheme had been running since the early 1990s. So for almost 20 years the world’s biggest banks and their top people ‘averted ‘ their eyes . And the world’s taxpayers have to pay for the gross negligence and corruption and outright thievery of these institutions ?

    And yet despite all of the above these ‘institutions’ will pay out huge bonuses to those who ‘averted’ their eyes and ran the world’s economy into the abyss ?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12478740

  • tacapall

    Noneoftheabove I think you know who Im talking about, the British Government for one, the majority of those corrupt politicians at Westminister, those police officers who fabricated the evidence, the local press and of course the British Broadcasting Corporation and not forgetting those geezers with wigs who work for yer woman with the scales and a blindfold on, yes justice is blind – to the injustices, the cover up’s, the deliberate fabrication of evidence against innocent people.

  • Nunoftheabove

    tapacall

    I do know what you mean and I think you’re wrong. David Cameron isn’t Harold Wilson any more than he is Sir Robert Peel. Mr Justice Bridge wasn’t the same person as, say, Lord Saville is or Lord Norbury was.

    I mean, by the same token you wouldn’t argue that Bertie Ahern was Daniel O’Connell or that Gerry Kelly and Robert Emmet were cut from the same cloth and representing the same values, interests and in the same circumstances as one another…or would you ?

    I’ll grant you that the Daily Mail hasn’t changed much but…we’ve spoken about that publication before 😉

  • Nunoftheabove

    Greenflag

    I agree but hedge funds are, as they say, ‘special’; we can say with some confidence though that the regulators – whose job it is or ought to have been to nail these schemes and scams – is not playing any such 3 wise monkies routine; their problem is twofold:

    (i) straightforward incompetence, comprising, as to some degree they do, failed bankers. After all, if they did have a flair for ‘the game’ they’d be playing for the opposition and rolling in dough.

    (ii) The more serious allegation there though sits with the governments who constitute the regulators to begin with. If the government sales pitch for FS business – as was the case in Dublin – is unashamedly based on ‘business friendliness’ (i.e. light regulation) then your ToRs are set in such a way as you probably don’t have any chance of ‘truly’ regulating (other than superficially) other than by disappointing your stakeholders/paymasters – at some cost to yourself and your career – or by whistleblowing.

    The clear implication was to ‘go easy’ and ‘play the game’ while the fantasy profits rolld on – don’t ‘party poop’.

    I’m really looking forward to Wikileaks nailing some of that quite soon and I do hope there’s a number of them sweating in their scratchers waiting for the wave to break. Let’s hope so, anyway.

  • tacapall

    Noneoftheabove Time does indeed move on, positions are refilled, new faces new ideas, new ways to achieve the same thing policies change to suit that outcome. The future is a bigger picture though and those with power sort of have to plan that out. You would think that Britain would learn from their mistakes of the past, it seems not it seems nothing has changed.

    Because I used a link to the daily mail doesn’t mean I read the paper all I know is its printed in britain and its a daily tabloid, why would it publish lies about its own countrymen.

  • Nunoftheabove

    tapacall

    You need to be more specific – when you use the term ‘Britain’ in this way who do you mean exactly ? Things move on, interests change, economies and geopolitical sands shift – it isn’t ‘the same as it always was’.

  • tacapall

    Noneoftheabove of course I mean the British Government and those with the real power, those who pull the politicians strings those who own the central banks of the world, who stand above the law and who most times back both sides in a war. They don’t even appear on the list of the wealthiest people in the world they are untouchable. Who financed Hitler but Wall Street, The Rothschild’s, J.P. Morgan, T. W. Lamont, the Rockefeller interests and many others. It was Socrates who came up with the idea of Democracy with the people supposed to be the real power but thats all bullocks as you know, money makes the world go round and people can be manipulated by the propaganda they are served.

    “I care not what puppet is placed on the throne of England to rule the Empire. The man who controls Britain’s money supply controls the British Empire and I control the British money supply.” Nathan Rothschild (1777-1836):

    What has changed?

  • Greenflag

    nunoftheabove,

    ‘If the government sales pitch for FS business – as was the case in Dublin – is unashamedly based on ‘business friendliness’ (i.e. light regulation) etc ‘

    The Irish Government’s role in the above was modeled on or should I say pun intended -derived -from ‘best’ Wall St and City of London practice plus no doubt a little extra ‘lite ‘ regulation to provide ‘competitive ‘ edge no doubt .

    ‘straightforward incompetence, comprising, as to some degree they do, failed bankers. ‘

    So bankers fail at casino gambling -What a surprise? -So do 99.99999 % of those who cross the casino threshold .
    While everybody appreciates that high risk can lead to high or no returns I don’t think people have yet got the message that our bankers were buying lottery tickets with their depositors /bondholders investments . And now the bondholders ‘lottery ticket’ has won and the banks have to come up with the money and they don’t have it . So the Government has to squeeze the taxpayers so the bankers ‘learn ‘ from their mistakes ?