30 minutes that changed everything for SF?

Doherty’s speech

With the election of Pearse Doherty in DSW and some fantastic poll returns SF could probably be forgiven for thinking they were about to enter next year’s election in their best shape ever

Things just got an awful lot better for them.

Pearse Doherty has delivered one of the best and most passionate speeches seen in the Dail in years. Discussion around the Budget debate was of such interest that the Twitter tag of #budget11 broke into the global most popular topics, almost everyone commenting was cheering Doherty on.

While Michael Noonan (FG) and Joan Burton (Lab) delivered pretty lack lustre responses that attracted occassional ridicule, Doherty managed 30 mins of pure brilliance, anger, passion and amazingly what seemed like alternatives.

I would be surprised if his arrival at the head of SF’s team in the south alone doesn’t deliver a 5% rise in popularity. Though SF now face the difficult choice of again sidelining their party leader to make space for someone that clearly has the ability to connect more with the electorate.

I’d suggest anyone that thinks what happens in Stormont classes as able politics watches his speech in full – a masterclass.

(I’ll add a link to the speech as soon as one becomes available)

Link to text added (it doesn’t do justice to the delivery)

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  • pippakin

    Greenflag

    I must have missed that bit or only considered it in the context of the whole speech. How is partition to blame for the lousy government and bankers here?

  • JJ Malloy

    “Patrick Pearse “I’ve written a proclamation of Independence and formed a Facebook Group Erin Will Be Free”
    James Connolly Likes This.
    Tweeted by Roger Casement (oo-er)”

    LOL

  • Greenflag

    ‘How is partition to blame for the lousy government and bankers here?’

    You may have misread my post I was not even suggesting it had 😉 . The fact that Doherty did’nt mention the P word once is an advance for SF in the Dail .

    Partition is an irrelevance in this situation . It probably means that we have fewer crooks in the banks than we otherwise would have had and fewer clueless politicians .

    Taking another perspective it could of course be said that partition has given SF the political base in NI from which it may now make inroads into ROI politics -courtesy of our established politicians abject failure to understand the world economy or to take the advice of even those to whom they paid 7.5 million dollars i.e Merril Lynch 🙁

    Nice pick up ML though . Not since Madoff scooped off with 60 billion from his naive victims has a Wall St outfit picked up such an easy 7.5 million of our Irish ‘taxes’ 🙁

  • Jean Meslier

    I weary and delight at the uncomfortableness of the aquiescents who shift from foot to foot as they try to square the circle of not wanting to be seen supporting the southern establishment but unable to back the opposition to this treacherous budget.
    The social democratic trendy lefty, eco, anarchist, arty farty, radical types who like to discuss current affairs over a Guinness at a comedy fringe festival with some newly met hush-puppy wearing clone just don’t get it.
    SF is a collective. You might not believe it, but as stated previously, – the Sinn Fein leadership leads by example – Full Stop.
    Thats why O’ Caolain sat to one side yesterday.
    Thats why Maskey was up to his armpits in FST for the Westminister election instead of sobbing over S.Belfast. And thats why Gerry Adams will stand and win in Co.Louth.

    So social democratic, trendy lefty, eco, anarchist, arty farty, radical types who like to discuss current affairs over a Guinness at a comedy fringe festival with some newly met hush-puppy wearing clone, put your anti-SF hostility aside for one moment and look at people actually trying to do something,and not just pontificating on a f*cking keyboard.

    Slugger refers to “Conversations, politics and stray insights” – Aye surely
    But radicalism?

    Radical – My Arse!

  • pippakin

    Jean Meslier

    Pearse Dohertys speech yesterday gave some people food for thought. So, surely now would be a good time to roll out the welcome mat rather than dismiss the Guinness (real ale?) socialists, at least its not champagne…

  • Jean Meslier

    pippakin
    You said on a neighbouring thread the following…

    “..As long as Gerry Adams is not allowed anywhere near finance or defence..”.

    Maybe you have already rolled out half the mat. I would have dared hope for GA as leader of the opposition – post February – but hey I could live with a cabinet position for Gerry so long as it is in a progressive administration.

    Labour going into a coalition with Fine Gael will be a dereliction of the working and middle classes who have to bear the full brunt of 20 years of fiscal betrayal by souped up corner boys and gangsters.
    I implore you and others to help change what was the tweedledum – tweedledee system in the 26 Co.’s for almost 90 years.
    The financiers and developers have been in power for too long. It’s time a government representing the majority, ie the working classes, was formed
    It’s time to step up to the plate pippakin.

    PS mines a half

  • Mark

    Pippakin ,

    Thanks for that Pippakin , I really appreciate the comment . I haven’t been scorned like that since I left school . Still , it doesn’t have the same efffect when you can’t see the whites of your critic’s eyes . The male ego is a funny thing all the same . I hope this site doesn’t go all balroggy . Talk soon M.

  • pippakin

    Jean Meslier

    I was impressed with the speech and more so with the glimpse of real ability.

    For me Labours potential alliance with FG is a real Achilles heal, as is the impression that they will accept the deal with the EU and the IMF.

    I like the idea of an alliance between left wing parties. I think it has possibilities one of them being the spreading of financial pain rather more evenly than FF have done in the budget.

  • pippakin

    Mark

    My own asbo was before the days of ‘public disclosure’ but since Maskey outed me I have no problem bragging about it: I earned it!

    Tbh I did think you were going a bit ott with MMcG, but I’m the last one to complain about a bad temper.

    Another recipient said, on another thread, that his was a grave miscarriage of justice, someone else said that in their case they probably deserved it.

    Oddly its possible to get really het up on a site like this one. and sometimes a little restraint is too much! I sailed very close to another one the other night some of my comments were edited!

  • fitzjameshorse1745

    Pippakin,
    The notion that FG and Labour and the country as a whole is sleepwalking towards a FG-Lab Coalition has at least been challenged by Dohertys speech.
    While I accept your analysis that Sinn Féin is to the Left politically, you and I both know that this is a controversial analysis on Slugger O’Toole…where the more traditional Lefties would repudiate this.
    Personally Id prefer a Lab-SF government but this seems almost impossible as it requires these parties to win more than two seats in 43 constituencies. I just dont see that as very likely.
    but the real story here might be how Labour respond to the SF challenge. Would Labour actually prefer an alliance with a right of centre party than a left wing party……
    Pat Rabbitte was really only indulging in rhetoric when he spoke about our “european masters” a few weeks ago. He was at one level appealling to the animosity to Europe but has not actually distanced himself from doing their will.
    While Rabbitte seems anxious not to shelter the “despot” he seems more than prepared to let our ancient sireland shelter the “slave”.
    For Labour …its make your mind up time.

  • pippakin

    FJH

    It is indeed make your mind up time but I’m not so sure that a left wing alliance is out of the question, there are others who have also expressed an interest. The next several weeks are going to be interesting.

    Its true that many would argue about SFs commitment to socialism and I have been one of them. The stranglehold the SF leadership appears to have over the grass roots is off putting. But if it were an alliance then socialism should, in theory, be the uniting influence and, more importantly, it would be the glue would hold the alliance together.

  • Mark

    Pippakin ,

    I think I got on mark’s tits the night before and he was itching to have a go . A couple of friends of mine have agreed with you and said I went over the top . My sister in law thought the two boys ganged up but i suppose you can put whatever slant you want on it depending on where you sit. I have a trigger switch temper and it has got me into serious trouble before so maybe I’ll take a back seat for a few days ? Maybe not ! As you said yourself Pippakin , nothing and nobody can stir emotion like the subject of Sinn Fein . We’ll have to wait and see what happens . On a more serious note , do you know what happened to Alan Maskey ? kinda miss him ….. M.

  • pippakin

    Mark

    No idea. I know MV thinks there is a possibility of him having reincarnated as a female commenter, personally I doubt that, I can’t see him hiding behind another persona, not when he went to so much ‘trouble’ to make sure his own was so objectionable and it was only a yellow card, nothing permanent about it!

    He was so right wing he would be all over the place now!

  • Mark

    Sorry about the Dominos comment , was’nt thinking properly , it was insensitive and stupid .

  • ulsterfan

    Doherty, Adams and SF will back off and not be so critical of FF.
    After all there is a good chance they will be offered a place in FF /SF coalition after the next election.
    Stranger things have happened.

  • pippakin

    FF are so unpopular that if by some chance they managed to get enough votes to be part of any government they would not be the larger party. In addition any party joining them in implementing this budget would also be blamed for FF failures,

  • Framer

    The Pearse Doherty wet dream has plummeted to earth. Nobody in Dublin seems to have noticed his tour de force which when you read it is fairly pedestrian.

  • Munsterview

    Mick….”…..Not only did they step aside, he pushed them both into the shade. He looked ‘leaderly’ partly through the merit of his own work (content and rough hewn oratory – although ‘youse’ has to have been a populist tip from ‘the boss’), but also because those who came before him were never cut out to be parliamentary politicians……”

    Agreed on the latter, a good physical force man, street agitator or sports man for that matter, very often do not make the best speakers. The other problem with the Old Guard is some spend too much time around new Labour. ‘ On message, On Cue and F**** all to say’ was the trademark of the Prince Of Spin, Tony and co.

    Ferris have plenty of fire and passion, I have often seen him go for a half hour or more at commemorations over the years. However reading from a script with a few limp jokes, or what the speech writer thought were jokes is another matter.

    Churchill once quipped that history would deal very kindly with him….. as he intended to write it ! Historians in coming generations when Ferris and the rest of us are groing dasies, will be wrighting from that Dail record.

    However Martin shining or not shining is not the point, the Dail appearance is only for a few minutes, the speech becomes a matter of record for now and future time, that is what concerns the back room lads and lassies………. Tuigeann tu anoish a bhuachaill?

  • fitzjameshorse1745

    If Framer is right and nobody in Dublin has noticed Pearse Dohertys speech then it is a reflection on the Media rather than on Doherty.
    Those of us who heard/saw the speech live……as the Dáil sketchwriters did …should be in no doubt as to its power and passion.
    Framer is of a unionist tint…I dont think he would find it objectionable if I say so…..and would naturally seek to minimise its impact.
    What excuse have Dáil sketchwriters and journalists for minimising its impact?

    The notion that SF wll go easy on FF because they want into a FF-SF coalition makes no sense.
    Dohertys speech gives the party a bounce……a massive one…..but as I pointed out yesterday, the next Election is not being held a half hour after Doherty sat down.
    Let us say that there was a concensus building here among Sluggers better posters that SF was in the running for (say) 12 seats in February.
    The speech made 20-25 seem possible but the cold light of day sees that slip back to 15ish.
    These figures are for illustrative purposes only.
    The threshold or the next Government is crossing 84-90 seats…….and I dont see any combination of figures that makesa FF-SF coaltion even possible (say 65-25).
    FF are toast, certainly as a major Party in coalition.
    Besides the softest target that SF has to work on is FFs “republican credentials”. And the other area where Doherty was landing punches was Labours commitment/lack of commitment to implementing IMFS draconian measures on the working class.
    Expect more of same.
    It is logical fora FF voter to consider voting SF…..or transferring to SF.
    And has now become an option for a Labour voter (and it does present Labour leadership with a dilemna if they have talks already with FG or urge #2 votes for FG).
    But few if any committed FG voters will consider changing to SF or even giving them a second preference.
    At the moment I read it that Labbour voters are maybe out of sync with the Labour party on this….and vice versa.
    To some extent it mirrors the North…..where SDLP and SF members are more hostile to each other than their voters.

  • JJ Malloy

    I, for one, was dissappointed that Doherty’s speech did not get more coverage.

    Also, it was too long to go viral and get coverage the ‘new fashioned’ way. Most people’s attention span isnt that long.

    Something short like Rabbite’s rant a few weeks ago can catch on and get 300K youtube hits within a week, but a 40 minute speech will never reach that number.

    Too bad…many would have liked it. And too bad for SF.

  • Mick Fealty

    Parliamentary performances tend to be overestimated by us anoraks. The coverage matters less than Doherty has left his calling card for rival politicians.

    He’s just mauled Joan Burton on Prime Time (Miriam effectively let him take over her chairing position), and made her look evasive.

    And the twitizens are loving it…

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    The IrIsh Times Dail coverage is gernerally a bit disappointing.

  • Brian Flannagan

    Can anyone direct me to a link for the full 30 minute video of Pearse Dohertys budget speech .
    I was told it was available here on Slugger , but can’t find it , probably need specs m,
    Brian/ Biff .

  • fitzjameshorse1745

    Mr Fealty,
    This is certainly true.
    Deputy Dohertys speech was on going on RTE2 while RTE1 had just started the 6.01 pm News.
    David Davin Power did not have Doherts speech in his package (he would probably have been making it as Doherty rose to speak) but yesterday I thought the average viewer was happy with the condensed version on the News.

    Yet it does ask questions of the Media coverage?
    Is it as Ali G might say because “we is Sinn Féin” ?
    Is it RTEs and the broader medias “workers party/republican clubs/Democratic Left bias? Or intellectual snobbery?
    Or is it merely the lot of a “fourth party”?

    The Labour response? Well certainly Joan Burton, bruised rather than mauled I thought…will have to re-think her strategy.
    Normally SF could be dismissed as a fringe player and Doherty as merely a new boy who would take months to find his feet. But Doherty has emerged as someone to be taken seriously.

    Of course the deal between Fine Gael and Labour has effectively been done for a long time. FG have postured Tory style with “we hate to do this …..we have no choice………but its mere concidence that we have to roll back the State in exactly the way our ultra conservative wing has always demanded”
    Meanwhile Labour poses as possibly a senior partner in coalition but more probably the junior partner who can mitigate on behalf of the disadvantaged thru being in the new Government. And of course happy to blame external forces.
    As Rabbitte did some weeks ago with the “European masters” jibe, he was prepared to talk the talk but not prepared to walk the walk.
    “DEFAULT”? may or may not be economic illiteracy. I have no idea. And not even economists can agree on that. But the point is that it resonates.
    Labour cant have it both ways. The best part of Deputy Burtons speech yesterday was I think her little passionate (perhaps unscripted) remarks about the petty humiliations in the IMF deal.
    But again thats talking the talk. It falls short of walking the walk.
    It is of course the job of Opposition to put a credible case before an Electorate. Glmore Rabbitte and Burton might well think they are doing that.
    And it is the job of a minor party (Sinn Féin and previously the Greens) to put INCREDIBLE plans before the Electorate.

    Sober reflection might well make a person see Labour reason.
    But sometimes sober reflection is not what we actually need.

  • pippakin

    I liked what he had to say but did Miriam allow Pearse Doherty to take over or did he just steam roller her? SF have to be careful that their newest and only star does not appear bullying.

  • Munsterview

    Pip,

    Miriam…….bullying ? Not at all, it is called sex appeal !

    She probably just went weak at the knees for him like women usually do when they meet him in person !

    The new kid on the block has it every which way!

    As to taking out poor old Joan, well I do not think Pearse will be collecting too many brownie points there, even Pat Carey or Dev The Slasher could do that!

  • pippakin

    MV

    I think your age is showing! Women no longer (if they ever did) go weak at the knees.

    Pearse Doherty is saying the right thing and saying it well but I did get the impression last night that to get a word in edgeways a person would have to raise the decibel level above his.

  • Mark

    Pippakin,

    That’s a Sinn Fein trait , who can talk/shout the loudest . I have to admire Munster’s unflinching loyalty , to suggest Pearse is in some way a latter day J.F.K well ……. I wonder who would be his marilyn . Mary Byrne maybe …..

  • pippakin

    Mark

    LOL.

    You must know that the only one allowed to criticise SF is MV…

  • Seymour Major

    It needs to be borne in mind that making speeches with passion and good soundbites is one thing. Being able to debate on TV in front of skilled political journalists is quite another.

    Last night, I watched Doherty in a TV debate with Labour’s Joan Burton. It was quite obvious to me that Burton had considerably more depth to her brief than Doherty.

    Sinn Fein may have a talented orator in Doherty but unless he is able to advance substantive argument, he will get left behind in the TV debates, as he did last night.

  • Alias

    “Women no longer (if they ever did) go weak at the knees.” – Pippakin

    Except when there is a bit of heavy lifting to be done…

    “It was quite obvious to me that Burton had considerably more depth to her brief than Doherty.” -SM

    The ‘style over subtance’ lame won’t have any effect with Pearse Doherty. You’ll just have to wait until Gerry comes south and then the media will bang on about that.

  • pippakin

    Alias

    Burton seemed to think Labour would ‘renegotiate’ the budget. I’m not sure they can or once in power would. Labour have got to be much more open about what they will do.

    Pearse Doherty did repeat one or two catchy sound bites but they were what people wanted to hear. People do not want to hear ‘renegotiate. ‘

  • fitzjameshorse1745

    “Women no longer (if they ever did) go weak at the knees.” – Pippakin

    Well…….MEN go weak at the knees. I used to put it down to Pans People, Mary Tyler Moore, Suzi Quatro and two of Charleys Angels.
    Turns out it was arthritis.

  • Alias

    Pippakin, your colonial rulers don’t intend to allow their local puppet regime to alter their plan. RTE reported that Ollie Rehn said that “it would not be advisable for any new government to try to renegotiate key aspects of the IMF/EU deal.”

    In other words, because the EU respects your ‘sovereignty’ in regard to seeking its permission to change its policies, if you do seek its permission things will happen to you that you wouldn’t like to happen to you, so it is advisable that you be a good puppet and do as your owners tell you you to do.

  • pippakin

    Alias

    I know! and even with the prospect of all this pain in an attempt to please the EU and IMF Ireland has been down graded again.

    http://bit.ly/gDB1lv

    RTE report.

  • JJ Malloy

    {The ‘style over subtance’ lame won’t have any effect with Pearse Doherty. You’ll just have to wait until Gerry comes south and then the media will bang on about that.}

    I wish he wouldn’t.

  • Alias

    “The organisation cut Ireland’s ranking by three notches from A+ to BBB+.”

    Are you surprised? The government claimed that no one would lend to Ireland if it didn’t bail out the eurosystem banks, yet it had a perfect credit rating and a very low CDS rate before it bailed-out the eurosystem indicating that everyone would lend to Ireland. But now that it has bailed it out, no one will lend to Ireland.

  • Jimmy

    “Turns out it was arthritis.”

    Or Community Restorative Justice

  • pippakin

    Alias

    Well perhaps there will be some good news in this downgrading. Surely even FF can’t continue to say we can’t default because we would lose credibility. We have no credibility!

  • Munsterview

    Pip,…..”MV I think your age is showing! Women no longer (if they ever did) go weak at the knees…..”

    Sorry Pip, should not have allowed long personal experience to color objective comment !

  • pippakin

    MV

    Show off!

  • Munsterview

    Seymour,

    give the lad a chance, he is in a learning curve! Sinn Fein unlike the other big parties do not have the budget or spare finances to put their upcoming ‘stars’ through sophisticated studio-media PR training studios !

    You, like me, may have been behind mikes in a studio setting. If so you will know that it is not as easy as it seems. Pearse is not alone attempting to cope with a new environment and political medium, he must also know that he is carrying a great responsibility on his shoulders. One mistake in the public sphere, one wrong retort, one ill considered statement, one laps of concentration and a silly remark and the media honeymoon is over for him.

    He, I and other Republicans know that the most of the media, and that includes some of those now lauding him are also but waiting to pull him down and in doing so, also inflict the maximum possible damage to Sinn Fein strategy. That is not an easy burden to carry but so far the lad seems far from awed by the expectations placed on him.

    As to RTE, not for nothing was it known as Sticky Land to all political parties, to the extent that even the Sticks started to use the nomenclature for the place. Al lot of Eamon’s and Rabbit’s old comrade are now in the higher reaches of power out there. Cronyism is not just a Fianna Failure defect, it is rampant on the left too.

    Many of these learned their polemic craft at the feet of the Harassed great one who was in turn much influenced by the Cruiser, who incidently learned his trade in State employment churning out Foreign Affairs propaganda where he had to learn all the pros and cons for Republicanism. The Cruised ditched the ‘pros’ and made a virtue of the ‘cons’ to the extent he like the Harassed one became ‘de facto’ Unionists.

    These Montrose Old Guard Sticks are rooting for the Gilmore Gale, they will stymie Sinn Fein at every available opportunity, overtly by denying Sinn Fein as much live tv time as possible and covertly by using unflattering camera angles etc to portray SF people in the poorest possible visual light.

    The game’s afoot, Sinn Fein threaten the cronyism and cosy consensus of both the Right and the Left politics on this Island. In doing that they would be very foolish indeed to expect any favors from any quarters, this coming campaign will be up close and personal.

    Doherty, as one of the rising SF stars and future potential leaders, is going to get the full works from the Southern media pack well ahead of the coming election. The establishment house trained left are convinced they can have a majority government and they are not about to allow anyone to interfere with that prospect, least of all Sinn Fein.

    There are far too many vested interests to have it otherwise and indeed we would not want it any other way!

  • Munsterview

    Pip,

    No, satisfaction!

  • ulsterfan

    MV

    “Unlike other parities SF do not have the budget or spare finances…..”
    With respect this is nonsense.
    SF themselves let it be known through their supporters in USA that they were one of the richest parties in Europe.
    Think of all those dinners in America at 1,000 dollars a plate and money from other sources,
    Years ago they had a well oiled publicity machine and spokespersons well trained.

  • Alias

    “Surely even FF can’t continue to say we can’t default because we would lose credibility. We have no credibility!” – Pippakin

    True enoughski, but then again neither has the eurosystem. Remember that under fractional reserve banking most of the money never existed in the first place. All that those fraudsters are doing is lending fictional money and then claming that others owe then the fictional amounts.

    It’s like me giving you a tenner (no chance) and you putting it in your piggy bank and then lending all your friends a multiple of it in Pippycoins. Your friends then owe you the multiple of, say, 50, that you invented. If half of them default, you still get 250 back from the other half and can then hound the defaulters for what they owe you, knowing they will have to transfer real assets to you and not Pippycoins.

    It’s all just a scam to steal wealth from real people and give it to elites…

  • Alias

    Just to add that the problem with the Shinner’s policy of giving eurosystem lenders ownership of the banks to settle the liabilities of the banks is that you would also be giving them ownership of the assets of the banks. You would have transferred ownership of what is effectively everything you see in this state to those who simply invented those debts under fractional reserve banking, so you would be exchanging real assets for invented money that never actually existed.

  • Mark

    Alias ,

    So all this Bilderberg bullshit is true then ? The producers of the Police Academy series were really on the money with their first movie . The thought that a bunch of aging gerryatrics (?) dressed in purple , hanging around the woods drinking their own piss can plan a new world order is both shocking and hilarious . David Icke must be turning in his grave each time he scans the FT . To think that little oul Ireland is the final piece of the pro atlantic jigsaw must be very rewarding Alias ?

  • pippakin

    Alias

    The truth is it is not Ireland being attacked and down graded by the money markets it is the Euro. It’s the Euro under attack by the speculators who think it might fail, and we are bearing the brunt of bolstering it.

    MV

    Rolling Stones.

  • Mark

    Pippakin ,

    Don’t you mean gallstones ?

  • pippakin

    Mark

    Each to their own. No Satisfaction is, or perhaps I should say, was a famous Rolling Stones song.

  • Mark

    Reallly ?

  • pippakin

    Mark

    Yes really!

  • Munsterview

    Ulsterfan : “…..Years ago they had a well oiled publicity machine and spokespersons well trained……..”

    If so Sinn Fein of my generation had to pick up these things up on the hoof and the good PR machine that is now there and has been in existence since post hunger strike was grown internally by Sinn Fein and systematically and build up.

    Is the fact that Sinn Fein had the foresight and skills to do this now to be in some way considered a negative ?

    Loyalist paramilitaries had exactly the same facilities and resources in Long Kesh as Republicans had and in addition they had friendly warders very often drawn from the same communities and sharing the same general ethos.

    The fact that Republican prisoners, following a long tradition emerged with enhanced educations and in some cases, degrees while most loyalists emerged with enhanced Porno collections, is hardly Sinn Fein’s fault. They blew their chances and are now paying a price for that!

  • Mark

    Pippakin ,

    Now now , dont involve me in your little love triangle .

  • Mark

    Munster ,

    Re your previous comment . Bang on mon ami . One of the best television moments of the last 30 yrs had to have been Gerry’s first appearance on the Ryan Tubirdy Show . TV for me , maybe live for you MV ? . Thanks for the dig out .

  • pippakin

    Mark

    LOL

    Put that wooden spoon back in the drawer.

  • Mark

    Pippakin ,

    Very good . Speaking of wooden spoons , they were the canes of my generation until you got to school of course .

  • Mark

    Pippakin ,

    Just waiting for the ” come on guys this isn’t the topic ” warning . Don’t want another Western Union logo beside my name !

  • pippakin

    Mark

    No using wooden spoons as weapons! they are for comedy not aggression.

  • pippakin

    Mark

    Nor do I! Not when I worked so hard to keep my temper in check.

    MV

    SF have had a good PR machine for years, but you’re right experience takes time and it’s not something PR can make up for.

  • Mark

    Speaking of aggression , my ex wife asked me to send Euros 335.00 to her family in South East Asia . The grandad needed a wheelchair . after much protest ( i had put her village thru college ) i sent the bread . The fuck!r died about a week later .We went on hols later that yr . One night in the village , she handed me pictures of the wake . One of the pics was of a fire with the burning wheelchair on top .I said to her ” that’s not my wheelchair is it ? ” it is ” she said , Why didn’t you sell it or give it to the clinic ? I asked her . It’s a buddha thing , ” you burn everything you own ” she laughed . ” he didn’t fuck!n have much did he ” I said , ” No ” she grinned ” just what you sent him ” ………………

  • pippakin

    Mark

    I bet you got a nice warm glow knowing you had fed, clothed, educated and ‘mobilised’ your wife’s family. It is in the best tradition of socialism.

  • Munsterview

    Mark : given that the Unionist love triangle concerns a PM, his wife and the wife’s Toy Boy, then I suppose things in this regard are a little sedate South of the Border.

    Then there is this ‘thing’ with Unionists and goats. I am still waiting for Big Maggie to spill the beans on that one !

    Mark, is it possible that the alternative Unionist triangle is a goat a sheep and…… well we will not go there, this is a family site and the night is still early.

    Life is sure interesting in some quarters up there !

  • Mark

    It sure is .

  • Mark

    Munster ,

    Indeed my friend , and if ever there was a case of beauty been in the eye . . . Petrochelli and his ladyboy have no equals . According to some people , sone one some where said something funny to David Cameron yesterday . You’d think with the coverage , JR had been shot again . Speaking of attractive couples , I see Prince Charles and his personal protection ran into trouble tonight , Kelvin Mac is having a heart attack on sky . Off to eurodisney in the morning with daughter , pain in the arse .

  • Munsterview

    Mark : make the most of it; been there and wore that particular T shirt. Passes all too quickly. Enjoy!

  • Mark

    Munster ,

    Merci beaucoup , go easy on them over the weekend . The tide is turning . G/night !

  • Mark

    Pippakin ,

    I’ll bring you back some eurodisney rock.

  • Alias

    “The truth is it is not Ireland being attacked and down graded by the money markets it is the Euro. It’s the Euro under attack by the speculators who think it might fail, and we are bearing the brunt of bolstering it.”

    Oh I see. I always wondered why the government bailed-out the eurosystem back in 2008. I guess those pesky speculators were at it back then too and it needed the financial might of Ireland to prop it up…

    *gives up*

  • Munsterview

    Alias,

    the message is getting out there. The Ian Crane / Jim Corr road show is part of that. More and more the ‘ Money out of thin air’ is being seen for what it is. However there is some way to go yet.

    This morning after the 9am news I phoned a family that between wages cut back and welfare payment loss had dropped over € 5,300 for five individuals. That house is not hard core Fianna Fail, just supporters and yet they intend to vote for FF next time out ! What the F do it take to F, FF?

    I have been watching Brian Cowen all week, I think that he has checked the FF free fall, the weekend will tell. In hindsight the Green mopery may have given FF and Europe the out card. Why come out and protest when the bastards are going anyway. And who would have known that FF had got to the God Of Weather and bought him off too, either that or he was a card carrying member!

    I have no doubt that we will see FF getting a trouncing but I think that the next Rec C poll will be a jolt of reality for a lot of people.

  • Munsterview

    This comment on the Bail Out is from Irish Central. Please note the RTE reference that allow the full bail out doccument to be called up.

    Abstract……

    For the full flavor of just how demeaning this document is for Ireland you have to read the details for yourself. It’s not that easy to find on the Internet, but it’s worth the effort if you want to see at first hand who is really in control of Ireland these days.

    To find the document go on to the RTE website (www.rte.ie/news) and put details of IMF agreement for Ireland into the search box. Click on the first item in the menu that comes up: quarterly reviews part of EU/IMF Rescue Deal. A couple of paragraphs into that text you will see a highlighted line which says click here to read the full document.

    And when you click on that, up it comes, the full document in all its humiliating detail. This is the driving force behind this week’s draconian budget in Ireland, the most severe in our history.

    This is the reality behind all the waffle about how the EU and the IMF are giving us the money, agreeing the headline targets for the state’s finances with us, and then leaving us to work out and implement the details of how the targets are to be reached.

    The reality is that the document sets out in exhaustive detail an economic plan with a strict timetable which will force us to reach the agreed targets in reduced spending and extra taxation within the agreed timescale. Failure to stick to the plan will mean the €85 billion money stream will instantly dry up.

    The document also sets up an agreed monitoring system which will allow the EU and the IMF to check on exactly how we are keeping up with the plan, so that corrective action can be taken if we start to fall behind.
    The reality is that the document treats us like a nation of untrustworthy incompetents who can’t be relied on to tell the truth or to stick to a plan. The level of monitoring that we had to agree to is shocking.

  • pippakin

    Alias

    Sighs…sometimes a hint is not enough. Let me spell it out for you. I responded to your comment the way I did because you are not the only one who can do sarcasm, but I think you may be the only one who doesn’t recognise it when it is addressed to him.

  • Alias

    Pippy, if that was sarcasm (and never mind what my raised eye brow means) then it was over my wee head. However, I feel it my citizenly duty to warn you never to engage in currency speculation since you make money on the value of it rising or falling, not failing. 😉

    The government’s credit rating collapsed because it indemnified the debts of eurosystem banks. In order to restore its credit rating, it needs to let the failed eurosystem banks fail. Simples.

    MV, isn’t Jim Corr the guy who believes in aliens?

  • Munsterview

    This address by Theo Dorgan Poet to the Winter conferring in University College Cork, his own graduation university is well worth a read. Just what can any of my Generation say to young graduates in our current Ireland, to give them understanding, hope and inspiration ?

    Well, read and find out, his address was something else !

    http://www.irishtimes.com/search/index.html?rm=listresults&filter=datedesc&keywords=theo+dorgan&daterange=7

  • pippakin

    Alias

    Your raised eyebrow! You have eyebrows? You have spent days/weeks stating the obvious, that’s not so different to the rest of us who feel just as strongly, what is different is your apparent belief that your contempt for the government is a better contempt than the contempt the rest of us feel.

  • Alias

    Is it obvious to you, Pippy? If it is, then why have you never made the ‘obvious’ point I made a few posts back about the fundamental flaw in the Shinner’s policy? Indeed, why has no one else made it?

    “Just to add that the problem with the Shinner’s policy of giving eurosystem lenders ownership of the banks to settle the liabilities of the banks is that you would also be giving them ownership of the assets of the banks. You would have transferred ownership of what is effectively everything you see in this state to those who simply invented those debts under fractional reserve banking, so you would be exchanging real assets for invented money that never actually existed.”

    And as obvious as it is to you, I bet that you still don’t grasp it.

    “Remember that under fractional reserve banking most of the money never existed in the first place. All that those fraudsters are doing is lending fictional money and then claiming that others owe them the fictional amounts.”

    The trick is to exchange the fictional money for other peoples’ real assets. The engineering of inflationary bubbles in the property sector work wonders for this fraud since they inflate the value of a class of assets that don’t have any stable value under the mark-to-market model, and as the value of these assets can be inflated by an expansion in the money supply so too can they be deflated by a contraction of it. A liquidity problem soon becomes a solvency problem, and then real wealth begins to be transferred by those who created the fictional money to those who borrowed it and are now in default.

    In handing over the assets of the banks to the eurosystem, the Shinners are falling into the trap of exchanging other peoples’ real assets for the fictional money that is now on the books of the banks as a liability.

    What actually needs to occur is that the banks should be allowed to fail and that the debts should either be written off or written down to a level that is comfortably within a realisable value for those assets (which is probably around 10% of the book value) and with the non-defaulting borrowers repaying that value of the asset rather the value that was attached to it under a regime of expansionist monetary policies, and with the depositors making first claim on those assets and the state the second claim. Then, of course, we need to exit the regime that ruined us, as it was designed to do, and that intends to extract a couple of trillion euros from us that is not owed by us.

    Therefore I support Pearse Doherty for promoting the policy that the debts of business belong to business but do not support the policy that the assets of the should be exhanged for fictional money.

    But as you say, Pippy, it is so obvious that no one bothered to mention it. And by the way, most currency speculators are banks – the same eurosystem banks the government wants to bail-out. Banks use currency speculation for a political as well as a profit purpose: they can make economic governance null and void by alter the value of a state’s currency.

  • Alias

    Typo: “A liquidity problem soon becomes a solvency problem, and then real wealth begins to be transferred to those who created the fictional money <b<by those who borrowed it and are now in default.”

  • Alias

    One last comment on this (before Mick pulls my ear for spam), here is a post of mine from earlier in the year on the mark-to-market model:

    The problem is how to value the property that is constructed on the land rather than how to value the land. Land itself will abide by the two-thirds rule, e.g. the value of the plot is worth about a third of the value of the property that is constructed on it (the other two thirds are the cost of the building and the developer’s profit).

    Banks value property using the mark-to-market accounting model which assumes that a buyer is either going to live in the property or let it to a third party who will pay the buyer rent to live in the property. That model is defective because it doesn’t account for a third class of buyer will neither live in the property nor rent it to somebody who will.

    That third class is the problem because his economic model is purely to acquire the property at a lower price that the price than he can sell it for at a later time, hence Ireland now has several hundred thousand empty properties that produce no income to repay the mortgage.

    When you set interest rates at nominal levels as the ECB disastrously did then you create the third class of buyer because you allow him to hold a property that produces no income for a longer period of time than would otherwise apply. If, however, you set interest rates at, say, 6% then the buyer would be less likely to afford to hold the property for a long period of time without finding a tenant to repay the mortgage as the longer he holds it at the higher interest rate the lower his potential profit will be from any increase in value. You also solve the other problem which is lending to buyers who do not have a tenant and do not live in the property and, ergo, you do not end up with several hundred thousand empty properties.

    Do you think it is unbelievable that banks do not account for the third class of buyer? It is unbelievable but it is also universal practice. All banks use the defective mark-to-market accounting model which specifically excludes that buyer from their calculations.

    In regard to the rethorical question in the last paragraph, it is now clear why “all banks use the defective mark-to-market accounting model” to value property: it is because it allows the inflationary/deflationary process of exchanging their (mostly) fictional money for other peoples’ real assets.

  • pippakin

    Alias

    Why have I not pointed out the obvious flaw in SF policy?

    Oh, I don’t know Alias, perhaps its because SF are at the moment the only party offering any resistance at all to the deal and that is their main attraction. As far as I’m concerned the next government should do what any asset stripping business would do, and that is strip every asset out of the damn banks and throw the bond holders what’s left.

    The flaw hasn’t stopped you saying you are going to vote for them why should it stop anyone else?

  • becky

    sf are the only party offering any resistance….this is only sf spinning the web to get votes.they pretended to offer resistance to british rule in ireland and they ended up in their pay. the people in the south should think very carefully before voting for them

  • john

    Becky a lot of Sinn Feins policies North and South are flawed and some of their members are thugs but a lot of the Sinn Fein members are also very hard working and do a lot for their local community hence why they have taken so many of the moderate nationalist votes off the SDLP so they should be given a chance and certainly wont mess up the economy any more than the current bunch of cronies at FF

  • Jean Meslier

    Did any of you blogaholics see Hardtalk on BBC News Channel last night?
    Stephen Sackur interviewed Martin McGuinness in his Stormont office.
    This interviewer always interests me especially the way he shifts and readjusts his person implying approval or otherwise of his interviewee.

    My theory being: the more body movement – the less approval.

    After beginning the interview, with both guns blazing, referring to the stupidity of a unified Ireland and a more equal society Sackur started his inevitable “twitching” and other involantary movements as MMG started unravelling the spin and sensationalism into real- life- politik.
    But the gem was Sackur’s startled, rabbit caught in headlights, gaze as McGuinness told him the Tory’s are in talks with the real IRA. – Almost as priceless as last nights expression on Charlie and Camilla.

  • Reader

    Munsterview: The reality is that the document treats us like a nation of untrustworthy incompetents who can’t be relied on to tell the truth or to stick to a plan.
    Where on earth would they have got such a notion? They ought to trust FF as much as you do.

  • Munsterview

    Reader re FF not funny anymore !

    I heard the details of the budget cuts regarding social welfare yesterday morning and I immediately phoned a near relative, Three members of the extended family have had taxes increased and allowances cut. The other three have had social welfare cut.

    These relatives are not a FF family per se, just FF voters. The extended family are down €5.300 collectively. Who do you think they are voting for next time round ? Still bloody FF.

    If SF are running the young crowd will go SF first for me but no 2 for FF, not labour. The parent concerned told me they would do FF as, wait for it, ” they will need all the votes they can get”
    If Labour looks like making it locally they will go one FF one Lab on an each way bet to have a favor to call in.

    Any surprise then that I am not jumping up and down with excitement at Red C poll results. Cowen has steadied the troops and arrested the FF free fall. The FF core are listening and lifting. In the current circumstances I found it very hard to see FF drop below the 20% level.

    We will have to wait more than a little while yet before FF is buried at a cross roads at midnight with a stake through it’s heart. FF may have been down and shell shocked but they are now up and fighting. Another FF phoned me to take a few soundings and signed off by saying….. ” If that bloody Dublin newspaper crowd thought that FF were going to lie down and let the bloody Blue Shirts walk all over us, they have another thought coming, they might do that sort of thing in Dublin, they did it there before but we will hold our own with the bastards here like we did the last time.

    This young man was in his late 20’s and the ‘last time’ was the 1923 Civil War. Red C polls do not have regard to these things. Cowen has thrown down the same challenge to the rank and file as Mick Fitzerald did to the rugby team on that famous occasion when he demanded ” Where is yer F’ing pride”?

    Cowen is no longer talking to the country, he is talking to the FF troops and they are listening. The core of FF may not prove to be as fractured as opponents hoped. This situation could again change gradually over a few weeks or in a matter of some days over an issue, but as of now the political pundits are holding a wake for a FF ‘corpse’ that is up, walking around the place and who has no intention of dying noe or anytime in the forseeable future ?

  • pippakin

    MV

    I have always thought that many of the core FF vote would remain loyal I think it needs to be stressed to them over and over again that if they vote FF they effectively endorse one of the most cynical budgets in our history.

    CT remains at 12.5% to encourage big business to come/stay here and minimum wage is actually reduced to allow them to minimise the wage bill. How does that make sense or be at all helpful to those who are also facing cuts in child benefit etc.

  • Munsterview

    Pip,

    down to Parish Pump politics Old Girl ! Who do you place your trust on, if you are a FF supporter and know your TD stands a chance of getting elected, do you ‘look after the person that looked after you’ or do you vote for another party TD who you know will have to look after his or her own lot first ?

    Remember these FF TD in their home constituencies are foaming at the mouths when they get back home about “Them hoors up in Dublin that have the party and the country destroyed” while FF TD in Dublin are equally mouthing off about ” those bloody bogmen and and banks that have the party and country reduced to this!

    The most delighted man and TD in the Dail all the week was Jackie Healy Rae. Every attack on him for getting the goodies for South Kerry was worth at least another 100 votes to his son Michael. I can well imagine his door spiel

    ” Well you heard what they said about me and all I got for Kerry in the Dail, and sure I will tell you no lie for t’was the Gods truth Joan Burton spoke when she was shouting at me because another TD could not have got a tenth of what I got for this County. Well come here to me now, put that young fellow there in as a TD and I guarantee you that if he gets half the chance I got, they will be saying the very same things about him” !

    A parlell universe I am afraid and the Dublin Media do not have a clue about it and the regionals will support their own local guys.

    What can I say, this is what got us into this mess and it is not going to change overnight if atall.

  • pippakin

    MV

    Yes it is what got us into this mess and everyone knows it! At least some of us are now willing to change sides to deal with the crisis and if that is evenly spread it will make a difference.