So Dubya that’s all right then

“Their interrogations helped break up plots to attack American diplomatic facilities abroad, Heathrow airport and Canary Wharf in London, and multiple targets in the United States,” George W Bush has told the Times in a media blitz  to publish his ghosted memoirs  “Decision Points“.

What is the British reply? Nothing from the government yet – or from Tony Blair for that matter.   David Davis libertarian former shadow Home Secretary has just said on Radio 4:

If you come by information you have to use  it. What we shouldn’t do – ever – is encourage it But does it work? A former head of MI6 told me We never learn this lesson” . People under torture tell you what you want to hear.”

And yet..  is that always the case?  Why does the use of brutal and degrading treatment amounting to torture crop up  in most  major crises? Why is the lesson never learned?

By turn apologetic and defiant, the new George W Bush is much like the old one, says the New York Times a traditional enemy. “I’m a deliberative person” he insists, adding:

“This is going to come as quite a shock to people… that I can write a book, much less read one,” Mr Bush told friends a few months ago, in one of those garbled sentences known as Bushisms. In fact, he didn’t exactly write it; that task fell to 28-year-old Christopher Michel, a former speechwriter, known to the former president as “Junior Bird Man”.

Dubya before he trod the Damascus road.

“So, I’m drunk at the dinner table at Mother and Dad’s house in Maine. And my brothers and sister are there, Laura’s there. And I’m sitting next to a beautiful woman, friend of Mother and Dad’s. And I said to her out loud, ‘What is sex like after 50?’ “

(His NBC breakfast interview) was a fascinating, at times disarming, performance, but also a confusing one: a plea for understanding from a president who says he doesn’t give a fig about popularity. At one point, Mr. Bush boasted that when an acquaintance told him his approval ratings were up, he retorted, “Who cares?”

“I hope I’m judged a success, but I’m going to be dead, Matt, when they finally figure it out.”

 

 

, , , , , ,

  • pinni

    Bush is a decent and honourable man. So what if he mangles his words from time to time. At least, like Obama, he doesn’t think that the US has 57 States and the people of Austria speak Austrian.

    It’s interesting how the media and liberal bloggers accentuate Bush’s little mistakes but ignore Obama’s whoppers!

  • pinni

    At least, unlike Obama, he doesn’t think that the US has 57 States and the people of Austria speak Austrian!

    lol!

  • Pinni

    But the Obamessiah is beyond criticism! I wonder how many innocent deaths liberals like Brian Walker would be prepared to see lest robust interrogation be conducted against terrorists? 100, 1000? George W did some good things and I trust President Palin will adopt a much more fearless approach in dealing with the global Jihad from 2012. The whining of liberals is a small price to pay for saving lives.

  • Jj

    Vance: As you celebrated the mass murders by the IDF over all the years you’ve been blogging, your views are taken with a large pinch of salt. Its not innocent lives you value, its the lives of people you agree with and the rest can go to Hell. A place that sometime you may be somewhat more familiar with.

  • pinni

    Referee?

  • Jj

    Decency and honour are not words which spring to mind when discussing the track record of G. Bush. Including these words in a description of a Presidency which was responsible for the death toll in Afghanistan and Iraq stretches the definition of those words beyond any sane interpetation. But then again, the supporters of this man are not exactly renowned for their intellect rigour.

  • pinni

    JJ, I think that should be intellectual rigour not intellect rigour.

    Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! You have stepped right into it this time, JJ!

  • Dr Concitor

    DV what would you advocate Palin does in 2012 to fight the Muslim hordes?

  • Neil

    how many innocent deaths liberals like Brian Walker would be prepared to see lest robust interrogation be conducted against terrorists? 100, 1000?

    How many innocent civilians have to die before the hard of learning pick up on what the eminently more qualified than failed politicians patiently point out as if to a slow child:

    We never learn this lesson. People under torture tell you what you want to hear.

    Do ya geddit? No? Thought not. I suppose unelectable extremists have a better idea of the craic than Mi5.

    It’s pointless, but hey, it keeps wierdo right wingers happy, ya know, those guys that garner 5.4% of the Protestant vote, which equates to a 3.24% approval rating for their dribblings among the community at large (working on the basis that East Belfast is representative of Unionism, and Unionists make up 60% of the overall population).

    It’s good to know that people like that will be roundly rejected even in the more traditional Unionist heartlands. There is hope after all.

  • slappymcgroundout

    “…but also a confusing one: a plea for understanding from a president who says he doesn’t give a fig about popularity.”

    Brian, Dubya, like you and me, wants to be loved and not hated. That’s the personal level. On the professional level, however, he needs to do what he needs to do, and the popularity of the action be damned. And so he pleads for some understanding but says that popularity be damned.

    Next up, Jj, you need to separate Afghanistan from Iraq. Sorry, but we told the Taliban that they needed to deal with al Qaeda and the al Qaeda training bases in the their country. They refused. So we closed the training bases in their place. And no one, repeat no one can blame us for that. Again, sorry, but after visions of humans jumping from our skyscrapers, someone was going to have to deal with the al Qaeda training bases in Iraq… And by the way, if you’ve seen the one vid, well, it wasn’t just our people jumping from our skyscrapers but also all those locators worn by those dead firefighters chirping from under the rubble.

  • slappymcgroundout

    Sorry, should be “al Qaeda training bases in Afghanisan…”

  • RepublicanStones

    David, as JJ has noted you’re not really interested in ‘innocent lives’ merely the innocent blood spilt by those you disagree with. One need only look at your recent post on Julian Assange and the absence of rebuke against those who posted comments inciting his murder. Your a fan of war, particularly wars where its ‘brown people’ on the business end of your beloved armaments industries products. I believe George Carlin did a routine in which he described people like you down to a tee. Perhaps somebody will be good enough to post a link here.

  • Driftwood

    Dubya is not, by his own admission, much of a reader.

    So he lives in a wee bubble.

    Take any article from here:
    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/

    perhaps this one

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-the-shaming-of-america-2115111.html

    little faraway countries of which we know nothing, Chamberlain I think, sometimes cause a lot of trouble.

  • RepublicanStones

    Did you just exucse Bushisms and then criticse Obama for such mumblings? And Did you just laugh at your own ‘joke’ below?

  • pinni

    Since a good majority of Slugger readers, I presume, enjoy Bushisms, I’m sure you all would appreciate the opportunity to improve your education with a taste of Hot Air’s Obamateurisms.

    Seriously though, all the slander, libel, innuendoes and petty digs against Bush present in this post and comments section do not change the fact that George W Bush is a classy ex-president who will go down in history as a clear-sighted and courageous leader who didn’t give diddly-squat for the political correctness of the day.

    As for liberal attitudes to waterboarding, James Delingpole has an interesting take on that.

  • pinni

    You are looking to Robert Fisk for objective comment on Bush? Talk about living in a bubble!

  • Jj

    The 9-11 horror was one of the worst things I will ever see in my life, but it did not provide anything more than a rationalisation for “something” that was seen as bneeding to be done, not for practical military reasons, but for the domestic political scene. Satisfying the blood lust of Vance et al is not my idea of positive leadership under those terrible circumstances. And G Bush remains one of the worst if not the worst president of all time.

    Which training bases in Afghanistan did he think the 9/11 “pilots” used?

  • Jj

    Would that be “We like War”?

    I think his stuff is on Youtube – sorry, can’t post link.

  • The Third Policeman

    Seems like its a case of intellectual…

    Puts on sunglasses….

    ….rigor mortis

  • Neil

    You are looking to Robert Fisk for objective comment

    Then you post a link to this gem:

    Guys, I implore you, fly Dhimmi Air instead. There the body-searches are cursory and determinedly non-discriminatory. And in the likely event that your plane does blow up half way across the Atlantic blah blah blah

    The event in question being so likely that it’s actually never happened. Ever. To date.

    So that’s not fear generating right wing bull shit of the type that we’ve come to expect, when arseholes pop up to explain how things that have never happened in human history are “likely events”.

    Be terrified people! Planes are falling from the air as we speak! Well, not really, but please, be afraid anyway, so your rights can be taken away for the ‘safety’ of the western world. The usual screamy Fox news type horseshit.

    And that’s the best you can do? A little hate based, poorly thought out opinion article from the daily torygraph? LOL. Try harder.

    It’s almost as pathetic as the “Obamaism” link at the top, not that I can see anyone tripping over themselves to defend the man, I think it may be that right wing fear has a grip on you that you think anyone really cares one way or another about Obama. The thread’s about Bush, a man everyone has an opinion on, you should concentrate on that.

    As far as we can tell Obama hasn’t declared war on Afghanistan in revenge for a bunch of Saudi’s driving a plane into New York, then went looking for Al Qaeda and WMD in a country where neither existed before hand. It’s like being attacked by Germany and carpet bombing Italy in revenge. Why attack Afghanistan in revenge and do nothing to Saudi? Hmmm, I can’t think, I’m sure there had to be some kind of reason. Maybe some Bush-like genius can work it out.

    Incidentally, the only Obamaism I saw was what looked like a joke. Is there more? Or is that the height of his idiocy? Because you’ll be hard pushed to equal Bush for mumbling spastication in the eyes of the many, but good luck with that none the less.

  • fitzjameshorse1745

    There is of course a difference between “torture” and “battlefield justice” but the two overlap.
    And lets be honest …would a German spy caught parachuting into England in World War 2 have expected to be tortured.
    “No sir we are British and dont do that kind of thing” Brian Faulkner 1971.
    And jus a few years later, the IRA would regret in their own terms killing Robert Nairac too quickly.
    So there is a lot of hypocrisy around the issue.
    “Big Boys Rules” as Mr Mark Urban might put it.
    Are the more Pakistani psychopaths than Indian psychopaths.
    More Kenyan psychopaths than British psychopaths.
    I have no idea. But I suspect its a fairly even spread thru the world and they find gainful employment in their specialities. And governments turn a blind eye (good guys) or encourage it (bad guys) and normal sane people agonise about it.

    There is a clever answer for the “torture is right” side. It saves lives.
    There is a clever answer for the “torture is wrong” side. It doesnt actually work.

    But Id think that in the case of pyscopaths the actual end product is actually less important than the fact that they enjoy it.
    If Osama Bin Ladin is discovered today by the Americans.
    …and said “dont torture me, I will tell you everything”, would it save him from battlefield justice and/or torture? No.

  • Jj

    Its been clear to me for a long time that the language used by those who advocate war on those they deem “terrorists” promotes a very wide range of behaviour (to which there are few if any boundaries) which in all honesty smacks more of a simple lust for revenge rather than endorsement of the efficiency of this practice.

    That this reduces those agents involved to the level of malignancy previously ascribed to “terrorists” and get them to do the kind of thing for which we oppose such people, seems to often escape their attention.

    I don’t know if the people who write of their support for waterboarding etc are psychopaths. But I wouldnt be keen to let them have either the means or the opportunity to carry it out on me, or mine.

  • John East Belfast

    ok – Hypothetical question – but not too outrageous.

    Let’s say you know an Al Qaeda terrorist has planted a nuclear bomb in London. It is too late to evacuate but you have somebody in custody who knows where it is.

    What would you not do to him to get him to confess ?

  • Jj

    John,

    No, its not outrageous and horrifyingly possible.

    But if you have someone who “knows” such things, how do you know he “knows”?

    BTW, did you see “Spooks” last night? 😉

  • Jj

    From the former head of MI5:

    “I said to my staff, ‘Why is he [Khalid Sheikh Mohammed] talking?’ because our experience of Irish prisoners and terrorists was that they never said anything …
    “They said the Americans say he is very proud of his achievements when questioned about it. It wasn’t actually until after I retired that I read that, in fact, he had been waterboarded 160 times.”

  • JR

    Firstly, even if you smash his balls with a hammer there is no guarintee he will tell you the right location. It is a well known fact that information extracted under torture is extremely unrelyable.

    Secondly, you can never know for sure what someone does of does not know. Where did you get your information?

    This senario would never happen in the real world.

    I would like to put a realistic senario to you though. If you were a guard and your superior told you that a man in your custody had vital information and he would turn a blind eye what would you do to extract it?

  • JR

    I think he should face trial for war crimes. If he is found guilty he should have to face the concequences.

  • Jj

    I think that if there is ever some device planted anywhere in the UK, we have lost, no matter what we then do as a reaction. Thus intelligence (in the true sense of that word) is required to pre-empt, as is awareness of how important it is to decommission not a bomb, but the mind that would plan and execute any such attack.

    Its hard to think of anything more mindlessly base than one man torturing another, smashing their testicles as both are engulfed in a nuclear blast.

  • Driftwood

    pinni

    A book as a nice Xmas present for your children?

    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/11/speaking_of_mental_illness.php

  • Alan Maskey

    Bush is right. The interrogation techniques used by Klaus Barbie did save lives, both French and German. After Germany sent peace keeping forces into France in 1940, places like Lyons needed a good, robust police force and Barbie and the Gestapo selflessly supplied it.
    After the war, Barbie helped the US maintain law and order in Bolivia and Argentina, among other places.
    Bush is on the right track. So good to hear he is still alive. Old soldiers are not the only ones who never die.

  • JJ Malloy

    Bush’s presidency will go down, and has gone down, as a disaster mainly due to his decision to invade Iraq. (which he still defends, I am not surprised)

    However, in the aftermath of 9/11 I don’t begrudge him using waterboarding on a few key individuals. Torture, along with intelligence work and already known facts, has proven effective over the centuries. The key is to have the resources to sort out what is truth and what is not.

  • JJ Malloy

    “Never said anything”

    That is complete bull. Many prisoners broke under interrogation.

  • slappymcgroundout

    Sorry, Jj, but that’s like saying that there’s no need to take out the Imperial Japanese Second Area Army since it was the Imperial Japanese Navy and not Army that bombed Pearl Harbor.

    You might also consider:

    The detention in Afghanistan of a German citizen of Afghan descent – reportedly a source of information about potential terrorist plots against targets in Europe and possibly the United States – has renewed focus on a stream of Europeans who have traveled to Pakistan in recent years for training at militant camps.
    ***
    “A not insignificant number of radicalized E.U. nationals and residents are traveling to conflict areas or attending terrorist training camps and returning to Europe,” said Gilles de Kerchove, the E.U.’s counterterrorism coordinator, in a report to be released Friday.

    Which brings us to:

    Planning for the attack [on the USS Cole] was discussed at the Kuala Lumpur al-Qaeda Summit shortly after the attempt [on the USS The Sullivans][the attempt was on 3 January 2000], which was held from January 5 to January 8, 2000. Along with other plotters, it was attended by future September 11 hijacker Khalid al-Mihdhar, who then traveled to San Diego where he established a close relationship with “9/11 imam” Anwar al-Awlaki, who was later linked to numerous plots and attacks, including the Fort Hood shootings and the “underwear bomber” of 2009 and put on a targeted killing list by President Obama as a terrorist threat. On June 10, 2000, Mihdhar left San Diego to visit his wife in Yemen at a house also used as a communications hub for Al Qaeda. After the bombing, Yemeni Prime Minister Abdul Karim al-Iryani reported that Mihdhar had been one of the key planners of the attack and had been in the country at the time of the attacks. He would later return to the US to participate in 9/11 on American Airlines Flight 77, which flew into the Pentagon, killing 184 victims.

    So the point is, and the point is beyond any rational dispute, some went there to train and then leave to carry out their nefarious deeds. Just as they had done in the Sudan. Re the USS Cole and Sudan’s responsibility:

    On March 14, 2007, a federal judge in the United States, Robert Doumar ruled that the Sudanese government was liable for the bombing.

    The ruling was issued in response to a lawsuit filed against the Sudanese government by relatives of the victims, who claim that Al-Qaeda could not have carried out the attacks without the support of Sudanese officials. The judge stated “There is substantial evidence in this case presented by the expert testimony that the government of Sudan induced the particular bombing of the Cole by virtue of prior actions of the government of Sudan.” On July 25, 2007, Doumar ordered the Sudanese government to pay $8 million to the families of the 17 sailors who died. He calculated the amount they should receive by multiplying the salary of the sailors by the number of years they would have continued to work. Sudan’s Justice Minister Mohammed al-Mard has stated that Sudan intends to appeal the ruling.

    Sudan lost its appeal of the judgment:

    http://pacer.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinion.pdf/052003.P.pdf

    Note paragraph no. 27 of the amended complaint, subpart (f), appearing on page 8 of the opinion. See paragraph no. 29 as well, appearing on page 9. In the case of Afghanistan, al Qaeda was part of the Taliban’s Ministry of Defense.

    Lastly, from the UK, a statement of the legal justification:

    http://www.parliament.uk/briefingpapers/commons/lib/research/briefings/snia-05340.pdf

    Almost forgot, the other compelling point here is that something less than 10% of the Afghan population supports the Taliban.

    For some more:

    Bin Laden was able to forge an alliance between the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. The Al Qaeda-trained 055 Brigade integrated with the Taliban army between 1997 and 2001. Several hundred Arab Afghan fighters sent by bin Laden assisted the Taliban in the Mazar-e-Sharif slaughter.

    Al-Qaeda enjoyed the Taliban’s protection and a measure of legitimacy as part of their Ministry of Defense, although only Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates recognized the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan.

    And by the way, Osama was already indictment in the US for the bombings of our embassies in Dar es Salaam and Nairobi. The Taliban refused to extradite him. Here is the superceding indicment. Kindly note the reference to training in Afghanistan that was provided to persons involved in the bombings. For instance, see paragraph 12 (Overt Acts) subpart ii on page 22, and prior to that paragraph 12, subpart a on pages 11 and 12:

    http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/binladen/usbinladen-1a.pdf

    See also paragraph ppppp on page 38. So our man Mohammed went to Afghanistan and then came back to grind some TNT in Dar es Salaam. See the following paragraphs, qqqqq and rrrrr. See further paragraph pppppp on page 44

    So, again, the point is undisputed. Can’t have al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan, or anywhere else. And as Dubya said, war on them and anyone who aids and abets them.

  • slappymcgroundout

    Sorry, Jj, but that’s like saying that there’s no need to take out the Imperial Japanese Second Area Army since it was the Imperial Japanese Navy and not Army that bombed Pearl Harbor.

    You might also consider:

    The detention in Afghanistan of a German citizen of Afghan descent – reportedly a source of information about potential terrorist plots against targets in Europe and possibly the United States – has renewed focus on a stream of Europeans who have traveled to Pakistan in recent years for training at militant camps.
    ***
    “A not insignificant number of radicalized E.U. nationals and residents are traveling to conflict areas or attending terrorist training camps and returning to Europe,” said Gilles de Kerchove, the E.U.’s counterterrorism coordinator, in a report to be released Friday.

    Which brings us to:

    Planning for the attack [on the USS Cole] was discussed at the Kuala Lumpur al-Qaeda Summit shortly after the attempt [on the USS The Sullivans][the attempt was on 3 January 2000], which was held from January 5 to January 8, 2000. Along with other plotters, it was attended by future September 11 hijacker Khalid al-Mihdhar, who then traveled to San Diego where he established a close relationship with “9/11 imam” Anwar al-Awlaki, who was later linked to numerous plots and attacks, including the Fort Hood shootings and the “underwear bomber” of 2009 and put on a targeted killing list by President Obama as a terrorist threat. On June 10, 2000, Mihdhar left San Diego to visit his wife in Yemen at a house also used as a communications hub for Al Qaeda. After the bombing, Yemeni Prime Minister Abdul Karim al-Iryani reported that Mihdhar had been one of the key planners of the attack and had been in the country at the time of the attacks. He would later return to the US to participate in 9/11 on American Airlines Flight 77, which flew into the Pentagon, killing 184 victims.

    So the point is, and the point is beyond any rational dispute, some went there to train and then leave to carry out their nefarious deeds. Just as they had done in the Sudan. Re the USS Cole and Sudan’s responsibility:

    On March 14, 2007, a federal judge in the United States, Robert Doumar ruled that the Sudanese government was liable for the bombing.

    The ruling was issued in response to a lawsuit filed against the Sudanese government by relatives of the victims, who claim that Al-Qaeda could not have carried out the attacks without the support of Sudanese officials. The judge stated “There is substantial evidence in this case presented by the expert testimony that the government of Sudan induced the particular bombing of the Cole by virtue of prior actions of the government of Sudan.” On July 25, 2007, Doumar ordered the Sudanese government to pay $8 million to the families of the 17 sailors who died. He calculated the amount they should receive by multiplying the salary of the sailors by the number of years they would have continued to work. Sudan’s Justice Minister Mohammed al-Mard has stated that Sudan intends to appeal the ruling.

    Sudan lost its appeal of the judgment:

    http://pacer.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinion.pdf/052003.P.pdf

    Note paragraph no. 27 of the amended complaint, subpart (f), appearing on page 8 of the opinion. See paragraph no. 29 as well, appearing on page 9. In the case of Afghanistan, al Qaeda was part of the Taliban’s Ministry of Defense.

    Lastly, from the UK, a statement of the legal justification:

    http://www.parliament.uk/briefingpapers/commons/lib/research/briefings/snia-05340.pdf

    Almost forgot, the other compelling point here is that something less than 10% of the Afghan population supports the Taliban.

  • slappymcgroundout

    For some more:

    Bin Laden was able to forge an alliance between the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. The Al Qaeda-trained 055 Brigade integrated with the Taliban army between 1997 and 2001. Several hundred Arab Afghan fighters sent by bin Laden assisted the Taliban in the Mazar-e-Sharif slaughter.

    Al-Qaeda enjoyed the Taliban’s protection and a measure of legitimacy as part of their Ministry of Defense, although only Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates recognized the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan.

    And by the way, Osama was already indictment in the US for the bombings of our embassies in Dar es Salaam and Nairobi. The Taliban refused to extradite him. Here is the superceding indicment. Kindly note the reference to training in Afghanistan that was provided to persons involved in the bombings. For instance, see paragraph 12 (Overt Acts) subpart ii on page 22, and prior to that paragraph 12, subpart a on pages 11 and 12:

    http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/binladen/usbinladen-1a.pdf

    See also paragraph ppppp on page 38. So our man Mohammed went to Afghanistan and then came back to grind some TNT in Dar es Salaam. See the following paragraphs, qqqqq and rrrrr. See further paragraph pppppp on page 44

    So, again, the point is undisputed. Can’t have al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan, or anywhere else. And as Dubya said, war on them and anyone who aids and abets them.

  • RepublicanStones

    You can see the folly of rightworld laid bare here, lots of support for pliers and crocodile clips, but not thought about actually addressing one of the root causes. Namely western involvment in other nations, specifically those in the middle east. We also have people willing to take Bush’s word that torture works, this from the same guy you all bought the WMD magic beans from. And with regard to invading Afghanistan, why is it people forget that the Taliban offered to hand Bin Laden over if the US provided evidence that he orchestrated the attacks. And remember Bin Laden himself denied involvment when he was interviewed a week or two after 9/11.

  • tacapall

    So how far would you go using torture during interrogation ? What happens if the person dies – Quite possible. So whats the moral difference between the interrogator and the alledged terrorist. I believe most intelligent people now know that this so called war on terrorists in Iraq, Afaganistan, Somalia, now Yemen is more about stealing those countries resourses by the friends and buisness partners of Bush and Co.

  • pinni

    Actually, RS, I forgot the ‘un’ the first time. Doh!

  • pinni

    I have already told my kids I want Decision Points for Christmas. Looking forward to reading it. (Yes, I did learn how to read at primary school)

  • wild turkey

    RS and JJ

    George Carlin link below

  • Alan Maskey

    Nice to see you defending robust techniques, JJ Malloy. I always thought people confessed (to anything) because they wanted the torment to end.
    One of the Gestapo’s best officers used the nice, light touch: cigarettes etc. The Germans, for example, could not figure out why the USAF terrorists sometimes used different coloured fuel. The softly softly approach got the right answer there and elsewhere.
    In The Gulagt, I believe, Alexander S explains the vdifference between the torture Gestapo style and the torture KGB style. One wanted the truth and the other wanted a confession. Which one is the USA? Truth or confession, trick or treat?

  • RepublicanStones

    Cheers for that WT. Carlin was great, one of the few people to make cynicism a virtue !

  • ThomasMourne

    The figurehead for the Industrial/Military Complex which controls the USA ‘elected’ every 4 or 8 years does what he his told by his masters who have bought him with billions of dollars for his campaign.

    So Obama is following much the same line as Bush in US colonial policy and ensuring that the profits for the Industrial backers continue to rise as the slaughter of innocents goes on.

    Torture is evil, but the debate about it is a distraction from the war crimes being carried out in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan [soon to be joined by Yemen] with the use of ‘clean’ drones to wipe out small communities from 30,000 feet.

    Discussion about Bushisms or Obamaisms has no place in a debate about crimes against humanity.

  • pinni

    Just watched the NBC interview with Bush. Open, honest, self-critical, acknowledging mistakes. What a decent guy!

  • JJ Malloy

    I’m not taking his words. Torture has worked over time, when combined with intelligence. In the immediate aftermath of 9/11 one could see how waterboarding the top dogs (only 3 people were waterboarded) might stop the 2nd wave of attacks.

    It is not something that should be used routinely or normally. It should require the direct order of the President.

    “And remember Bin Laden himself denied involvment when he was interviewed a week or two after 9/11.”

    Sure he did.

  • Alan Maskey

    Did you get a laugh out of Obama laying it on thick to the Indians (not the natives they wiped out) about shared interests and objectives and beliefs between India and the Great Satan. Both Constitutions begin with “We, the people”, the great Obama said.
    Would We the Brahmins not be better?

  • JJ Malloy

    Truth. No confession was needed from the likes of Khalid Sheik Mohammed.

    Torture should never be used for confession. Who wouldn’t confess? It shuld only be used in ticking bomb type scenarios.

    Alan-Was there any major combatant in WW II that you do not designate as terrorists?

  • RepublicanStones

    And who told you about these second wave of attacks? The USA had planned to go into Afghanistan, which is why they didn’t take the Taliban up on their offer. I suppose you think all those Bin-Laden tapes are the real McCoy too eh 😉

  • RepublicanStones

    Smedley Butler was quite frank about US intentions how it uses it’s military – and this was nearly 100 years ago

    I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class thug for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

  • slappymcgroundout

    For what you left out:

    Major General Smedley Butler was a left-leaning military hero prone to intemperate remarks. He retired in 1931 after insulting the Secretary of the Navy and a 1932 Senate run was a failure. In 1934, Butler approached Congress with sensational allegations: business leaders were plotting a fascist coup against the White House! Two Democratic representatives, John McCormack and Samuel Dickstein, saw an opportunity to score political points against New Deal opponents and convened a committee to investigate the story.

    It was a miscalculation. Butler’s lurid story was wildly improbable: business leaders would put up $30 million for Butler to lead an army of 500,000 men to Washington to depose President Roosevelt. It was never convincingly explained why Wall Street would choose Butler, an anti-capitalist who made his living after the Marines by giving a speech called “War is a Racket,” which blamed World War I on “industrialists.”

    Moreover, the entirety of Butler’s theory was based on the stories told him by a single man—a 38-year-old bond trader named Gerald MacGuire who made $75 per week and whom Butler alleged was the mastermind. MacGuire denied everything and the big headlines quickly turned to scoffing. The New York Times sneered that Congress had been taken in by a “gigantic hoax” and called Butler’s tale a “bald and unconvincing narrative.” If Butler didn’t entirely invent the story, it was only because MacGuire was apparently attempting to use Butler as part of an elaborate failed con to obtain funding from millionaires such as Robert Sterling Clark.

    So, glad to see that you fell for the con. War Is A Racket! Leave your contributions in the tin that’s being passed around.

    On a related note, the once mighty BBC is now swimming in the mire:

    The BBC online précis for their documentary program The Whitehouse Coup, says “The coup was aimed at toppling President Franklin D Roosevelt with the help of half-a-million war veterans”. In that documentary, author and conspiracy theorist John Buchanan said, “The investigations mysteriously turned to vapor when it comes time to call them to testify. FDR’s main interest was getting the New Deal passed, and so he struck a deal in which it was agreed that the plotters would walk free if Wall Street would back off of their opposition to the New Deal and let FDR do what he wanted”. The program connected major companies to the American Liberty League, formed by Al Smith (who, the program asserted, was to be the fascist ruler).

    Only problem is:

    One of Butler’s hearsay allegations was that the American Liberty League was involved, and [Prescott] Bush—along with Democratic presidential candidates John W. Davis and Al Smith, future Secretary of State Dean Acheson, and 125,000 other people—was a member of the anti-New-Deal group. By alleging without any evidence that FDR cut a secret deal with Wall Street for its support of the New Deal, Buchanan ignores the fact that the Liberty League and the business community continued to oppose the New Deal and got its central component, the National Industrial Recovery Act, struck down in court. Nevertheless, the BBC gave Buchanan a soapbox to repeat his fictions in a “documentary,” a sad reminder of how low the once-revered BBC will go when given the opportunity for Bush-bashing.)

    Lastly, Smed’s statement about Veracruz, which he calls “Mexico” is simply laughable. We occupied Veracruz, during the Mexican Revolution. Nowhere else. So simply absurd for Smed to say that he made Mexico safe. Would otherwise be kinda hard to keep Mexico safe with a whopping grand total of 300 or so US Marines. Sorry, Stones, but you lefties need realize that your man Smed was nothing more than a left-leaning populist who rather overstated his own affairs and distorted our history in order to earn his post-Corp living. The truth re Mexico and Veracruz is:

    In the fighting, 19 Americans were killed 72 wounded. Mexican losses were around 152-172 killed and 195-250 wounded. Minor sniping incidents continued until April 24 when, after the local authorities refused to cooperate, Fletcher declared martial law. On April 30, the US Army 5th Reinforced Brigade under Brigadier General Frederick Funston arrived and took over the occupation of the city. While many of the Marines remained, the naval units returned to their ships. While some in the United States called for a full invasion of Mexico, Wilson limited American involvement to the occupation Veracruz. Battling rebel forces, Huerta was not able to oppose it militarily. Following Huerta’s downfall in July, discussions began with the new Carranza government. American forces remained in Veracruz for seven months and finally departed on November 23 after the ABC Powers Conference mediated many of the issues between the two nations.

    And for what else Smed left out, there was more than oil there. Was also a substantial population of US citizens. And the oil part of was overstated. Remember, at that time in world history, we in the US were an oil exporter, unlike today.

    And we were so against Mexico and Mexicans that we:

    The American naval force, limited to a single modest gunboat, the USS Dolphin, due to the navigational constraints of the shallow harbor entrance, presented a 21-gun salute to the Mexican flag three times on April 2, 1914 to pay tribute to the celebrated occupation of Puebla in 1867 by Mexican General Porfirio Díaz in the last phases of the French intervention in Mexico.

    Just what one would expect of conquering imperialist forces.

    Now, note the dates of somce of the other events. Ever hear of WW1? Now go read up on German overtures towards some of those nations. Haiti and the Dominican were occupied in 1915 and 1916, respectively, for the immediate purpose of preventing the establishment of German submarine bases, which would have been good locations from which to attack British shipping in the Caribbean.

    For more of what Smed left out, while some don’t like the Yanqui, some others do, as we were actually less brutal than the local brutes and we were never quite as corrupt as the locals were and still are. That latter is one of the “funny” things about these discussions. Evil American and other colonialists are all to the fore but the far worse corrupt locals somehow disappear from both history and the discussion. And so no one ever talks about how before occupation of the Domincan Republic, we took over collection of customs duties, for debt repayment, mostly to your EU friends, and that worked out well as that stopped the corrupt elite from siphoning off the custom duties for their own benefit, i.e., not only did it help repay the debt, it encouraged further investment as some could stand assured that their loans would be repaid. But we rarely if ever hear about that. And by the way, for the cruel irony, with respect to the collection of customs duties themselves, we did that so that your EU buddies woundn’t themselves take over the place for the purpose of getting their loans repaid. You’ll have to forgive us, the Philippines was our colony for under 50 years. Your Euro buddies stayed for hundreds of years. So if we had to take over for a decade to keep your EU buddies from coming and staying for hundreds of years, well, you’ll just have to indulge us.

  • RepublicanStones

    I didn’t leave anything out Slappy me aul flower. I hit Wiki up for that quote from the fighting Quaker, I don’t rely on the sites you prefer….

    http://www.american.com/

    I see they have Chavez down as the new Escobar, and they seem to be Glenn Beck fans as well, which is good as old Glenn was quite fond of the marching powder in his youth too. If you think old Smedley was lying Slapp perhaps you’d care to explain why American foreign policy doesn’t seem to have changed much since his time what with US Presidents demanding the CIA make the economies of insolent left leaning govts ‘scream’, right up to the wholesale rape of the Iraqi economy with the most recent ‘humanitarian intervention’.

  • RepublicanStones

    Btw Slapp, I’d suggest you look up the history of the EU, it’s not nearly as old as you seem to think it is 😉

  • RepublicanStones

    Just so you know Slapp, relying on a site which has Chavez down as the new Escobar isn’t that sensible

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot?wasRedirected=true

  • slappymcgroundout

    Sorry, Stones, but I have already the Wiki piece. Stones, only with respect to legislation does an American court give credence to legislative findings as mere legislative findings and almost when applying the rational basis test in review of economic legislation. The notion of “conspiracy” was mocked to scornby those noted in the Wiki piece and elsewhere. Implausible on its face, some rightists are going to ask Smedley “I’m A Leftist Who Hates ‘Industrialists'” Butler to lead their revolution. Preposterous on its face. You might as well claim that some Irish Republican revolutionaries solicited General Sir Anthony Farrar-Hockely to lead their revolution.

  • francesco

    I have to be frank lads, after reading the pile of shite contained in bush memoirs i feel words won’t do justice to describe my thoughts regarding this feble minded creature.. this man and those around him have inflicted the world such a severe punishment in less then 8 years i seriously doubt we will ever be able to restore a decent and peaceful international scenario. the man has no shame and so the vast majority of those who turned their face away while these criminals were “spreading democracy” throughout the world. you are as guilty as him and no you won’t be judged a success..

  • Jj

    As regards success, its sufficient to note that Vance thinks he was brilliant and also thinks Palin will be President…his political judgement is always impeccable.

  • Jj

    Oh, I got banned again! 🙂

    The Freedom of Speech champion has banned more people than I can keep count of…

  • JJ Malloy

    So Bin Laden had nothing to do with 9/11?

    Let me guess: There were really no planes, they were just holograms of planes hitting the building to mask the explosives going off in the buildings?

    Got it. Thanks

  • RepublicanStones

    Slapp me aul flower – from your cut and paste you which claims…

    Moreover, the entirety of Butler’s theory was based on the stories told him by a single man—a 38-year-old bond trader named Gerald MacGuire….

    Your cut and paste also states

    The New York Times sneered that Congress had been taken in by a “gigantic hoax” and called Butler’s tale a “bald and unconvincing narrative.”

    Now, you claim you had read that wiki article. Well if you did, you would have read the following…

    Prior to the committee’s final report, a New York Times editorial dismissed Butler’s story as “a gigantic hoax” and a “bald and unconvincing narrative.”[7][48] Thomas W. Lamont of J.P. Morgan called it “perfect moonshine.”[48] General Douglas MacArthur, alleged to be the back-up leader of the putsch if Butler declined, referred to it as “the best laugh story of the year.”[48] Time magazine and other publications also scoffed at the allegations.

    However after the committee released its report, Time wrote “Also last week the House Committee on Un-American Activities purported to report that a two-month investigation had convinced it that General Butler’s story of a Fascist march on Washington was alarmingly true.” The New York Times reported that the committee “alleged that definite proof had been found that the much publicized Fascist march on Washington, which was to have been led by Major. Gen. Smedley D. Butler, retired, according to testimony at a hearing, was actually contemplated”. [8][49]

    Separately, Veterans of Foreign Wars commander James E. Van Zandt stated to the press that, “Less than two months” after General Butler warned him, “he had been approached by ‘agents of Wall Street’ to lead a Fascist dictatorship in the United States under the guise of a ‘Veterans Organization’ “.[50]

    So its seems your beloved rightwing website allowed you to be taken into its own ‘bald and unconvinicing narrative’, as it mentions the NYT report before the congresional committee’s findings, but not after. But then again Slapp, you would have known this if, as you claim, you read the wiki piece.

  • RepublicanStones

    Almost forgot Slapp with regard to the part of your cut and paste which states..

    Moreover, the entirety of Butler’s theory was based on the stories told him by a single man—a 38-year-old bond trader named Gerald MacGuire….

    Again if, as you claim, you had read the wiki article, you would have read the following…

    This committee received evidence from Maj. Gen Smedley D. Butler (retired), twice decorated by the Congress of the United States. He testified before the committee as to conversations with one Gerald C. MacGuire in which the latter is alleged to have suggested the formation of a fascist army under the leadership of General Butler.
    MacGuire denied these allegations under oath, but your committee was able to verify all the pertinent statements made by General Butler, with the exception of the direct statement suggesting the creation of the organization. This, however, was corroborated in the correspondence of MacGuire with his principal, Robert Sterling Clark, of New York City, while MacGuire was abroad studying the various forms of veterans organizations of Fascist character

  • Alan Maskey

    Butler was the most decorated Yankee killer till Audie Murphy started his spree. He wrote that little opus, which I have in audio nad PDF format, when the world and the US were lurching to the right.
    He did take part in a number of strong arm terror tactics by the terrorist USA so he probably knoew a thing or two about it. Do the terrorist US Marines still sing that ditty about scalping Philippinos? Brave lovers of democracy were the Yanks, killing hundreds of thousands of Philippinos and calling the Spaniards names.

    It seems to be a Provo tactic to shoot the messenger (!) and thereby discredit the message. To say Butler is wrong and that war is not a racket is, well, dumb, almost as dumb as a Skull and Bones President, whose legacy is dead Muslims.

  • RepublicanStones

    Some in the media don’t even try and hide it anymore Alan.

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/10/washpost-war-iran-rescue-economy/

    And this beaut (annoying voice of host aside)

  • Neil

    The genius Bush accused of plagiarism.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/14/george-bush-accused-borrowing-memoirs

    Smart guy alright, I’m surprised he has the intellect to steal, never mind ‘write’ a book.