Killing Joe O’Connor

Ten years have passed since the Provisional IRA murdered RIRA Volunteer Joseph O’Connor in Ballymurphy.

It was 1999 that Mo Mowlam gave a green light for the Provos to maim and murder their own people, when she classified the murder of young Charles Bennett – alleged to have been killed to keep him from exposing corruption – as “internal housekeeping”; the Provos routinely kidnapped and threatened other republicans, justified as necessary action to keep the movement from splitting, in order for the Adams leadership to carry the bulk of supporters through the peace process. As recently published memoirs have shown, that was a load of cobblers, but the governments were prepared to look the other way when it came to Provo violence. This free run of ‘housekeeping’ ran out of steam with 2 incidents, coupled with the Northern Bank robbery, that mark the ending of ‘peace processing’ and the beginning of the bedding down of Stormont as we know it today: the attempted murder of Bobby Tohill, and the murder of Robert McCartney. However, the bedding down comes with a caveat, as often happens when the Brits take the Mowlam line. The murder of Paul Quinn shows that the governments are still prepared to turn a blind eye to Provo violence when it suits them.

Prior to Joe O’Connor’s murder, Charles Bennett and Andrew Kearney had been murdered by the Provos in North Belfast. Andrew’s mother, Maureen, from Twinbrook, was one of the first to break ranks and speak out against the organisation that brutally killed her son. In a sense, her speaking out was the start of a shadow peace process, one that has never been acknowledged and today exists amongst those families seeking the truth of what happened to their loved ones.

By October, 2000, the stage was set for the Provisional IRA to assert its dominance and murder a dissident republican. In West Belfast in particular, challenges were being made: the RIRA was making some inroads in recruitment and beginning to shake off the shackles of Omagh. A dissident magazine, Fourthwrite, was being published and presented a threat due to the attention it was getting; respected republicans like Brendan “The Dark” Hughes were publically questioning the direction the Provisional movement was going, while writers like Anthony McIntyre were accurately predicting the inevitable future of that direction, in clear contrast to the propaganda being churned out by organs of the movement such as the British funded Andersonstown News. Financially, the Provos feared former members were starting to shift some money-making enterprises over to dissident organisations. Rumours of “Stake Knife” were doing real damage via the Sunday People, who relentlessly covered the concept of an informer at the top echelons of the Provisional IRA, in its weekly stories. The tension was building; a relative of O’Connor’s was kidnapped and only rescued from being brutally tortured by the arrival of O’Connor kicking the door in where his relative was being held.

The Wednesday before the shooting, Sinn Fein had held a meeting on policing in the BIFHE on the Whiterock Road. Some challenges were made to them from the floor; it got heated. By Friday afternoon, Joe O’Connor was dead, shot seven times in the head in broad daylight at his mother’s doorstep.

Whitecliff Parade, where his mother lived, is one of those narrow Belfast streets where every front window looks into its neighbour’s sitting room. Privacy doesn’t exist; terraced homes cheek by jowl and cars scattered on the pavement – there are no driveways, as these homes were built in a time when having a car was not the norm – mean that a winding road becomes more serpentine as moving cars weave around the parked ones. Like many families in Ballymurphy, Joe’s family, the Notorantonios, tended to live close to each other, with sisters and brothers and aunts and mothers living on the same street. Whitecliff Parade was no different; Joe, murdered in front of his mother’s home, was killed on the same street his grandfather, allegedly targeted to divert the shooters away from the British asset, “Stake Knife”,  was shot dead by the UFF 13 years to the very week before, in his grandmother’s home just a few doors up.

When Joe’s killers ran from the shooting, they were seen by dozens of people, and easily identified. They were all local volunteers known to the tight-knit community. Those who were lookouts at the street’s corners were seen and identified, and the killers were also seen and recognised as they ran through a nearby schoolyard. In an estate the size of Ballymurphy, to mount a shooting like that in broad daylight, on foot, was pure madness – unless dependence on the silence of the victims and witnesses was vital to the plan. Talking amongst themselves was one thing, but the Provos were confident victims would never go to the police.

Where the family did go was to Anthony McIntyre, a Republican writer who had contacts with the media. He and Tommy Gorman, another former Provisional volunteer and ex-prisoner, publicly condemned the murder of Joe, who left a widow and three small children, and, unknown at the time, a fourth to come. They wrote a statement identifying the Provisional IRA as the organisation who carried out the murder, which was carried in the Irish News. They never identified the individuals involved; the responsibility lay with the IRA. The afternoon the statement was published, Bobby Storey and Martin Lynch, the heads of the IRA’s internal police, called to the McIntyre home.  Brendan Hughes and then Boston Herald reporter, Jim Dee, were present, as Jim Dee had earlier arranged for an interview to take place. Storey and Lynch went with McIntyre and his wife into the kitchen.

“Are you investigating the affairs of the IRA?”

“Did the IRA kill Joe O’Connor?”

Threats were made – Storey and Lynch were clear. The McIntyres were to shut up, or else.

After the funeral, the leadership of the Provisionals drove the point home when they mounted pickets on the homes of McIntyre and Gorman. Tommy Gorman’s wife was home that evening when the large crowd arrived in buses. The small cul de sac their home was on was filled to the brim with people. Many were people she knew, people who had been comrades during the long years when her husband was in prison and she was raising their children. The McIntyres were in town when they got a call about the picket at Tommy’s, and went straight up to the Gorman’s. While on their way to Andersonstown, a neighbour phoned: “Don’t come home. There is a squad of men in [the house across the street from yours]. There is a mob waiting for you to return.” The McIntyres did not return for four days.

Brendan Hughes and Billy McKee were working behind the scenes along with Fr Des Wilson to mediate, to help stymie the escalating tensions; no one wanted Joe’s murder to blow out into an all out feud. Unless that was the intention of the shooting all along: were the Reals to attempt to strike back, the Provisionals would have made it a night of the long knives. Word came back from the Provisionals that the efforts of Hughes and McKee were not wanted.

The picketers returned to the McIntyre home two weeks later. This time McIntyre’s wife, Carrie, who was six months pregnant with their first child, was home. Marie Cush, who is now a Belfast City Councillor for Sinn Fein, but was then a SF candidate, led the picket which Carrie confronted on her own. An editor of the Andersonstown News, Gearóid MacSiacais, who now speaks at events organised by the dissident group éirígí, was amongst the crowd shouting abuse at her. The Andersonstown News at the time was instrumental as a messenger of the hate campaign being conducted by the Provisionals. Twice weekly they were to the fore in spreading disinformation and malicious lies about those who had the temerity to stand up to Provo rule.

As the picketers left the McIntyre home, they ran into the widow of Joe O’Connor returning to hers. Harassed with hate mail (“Provos Rule. Scum Out.”) and malicious phone calls after her husband had been murdered, Nicola O’Connor now faced a 100 strong mob waving placards.

The hate campaign being waged against “dissidents” by the Provisionals was intense: it encompassed pregnant women, one a widow made by their volunteers.

All of this had the imprimatur of the State behind it: at the time of the murder the then RUC immediately raided offices belonging to Republican Sinn Fein in an act of deflection meant to stoke fires between RSF and the RIRA. Despite it being widely known who was involved in the murder and that numerous witnesses to the crime existed, nothing was done. Even the coroner, John Leckey, ruled that the police failed to act, with not one person questioned in connection with the murder over two years after it was committed.

As recently as 2009, Gerry Adams was frequently photographed with a bodyguard, whose name had long been associated with the murder of Joe O’Connor. It was a double message being sent, for Adams to have employed him in such a visible position: “We can get away with murder, we are untouchable”.  It was a direct message to any dissidents thinking of challenging the leadership, an unsubtle notch on the belt.

Much more went on – the McIntyres eventually left their home for over a month, after the second picket and Carrie was hospitalised; a leading member of SF’s prisoners’ group, Coiste, had Tommy Gorman fired from his job; it became impossible for McIntyre or Gorman to work in West Belfast. Eventually, years later, the Notorantonio family was completely burned out of Ballymurphy, a campaign orchestrated behind the scenes by some of those most closely involved with the O’Connor murder and hate campaign. A digger was driven through the home of the elderly matriarch of the Notorantonio’s by a Provisional IRA volunteer.

Reading back through the material documenting the time, it is remarkable, in terms of republican thinking, how little has changed. What McIntyre and Gorman were saying back then, isolated and on their own, has finally become the accepted wisdom of many; the majority have caught up to their thinking. What is ironic of course is that many of today’s newly minted members of various dissident groups were to the fore at the time of the O’Connor murder defending “Provo Rule”, wilfully and energetically engaging in the hate campaign against those whose thinking they now endorse.

Killing Joe O’Connor and the hate campaign that followed was strategically important for the Provos to continue pushing their way through the peace process. It arrested the emerging growth of dissident groups in Belfast, closed all potential space for a republican political alternative to Sinn Fein and instilled a powerful fear throughout the community. The price of standing up to the Provos, speaking out against them or challenging them politically was extremely high. The attacks on McIntyre, Gorman and Hughes, intensified by the organised social isolation, ostracisation, and black-listing set an example few wanted to follow. For McIntyre, being silent was not an option, yet he recognised why many remained so: “It is important that we continue to reassert what we believe to be the truth. We live in a world where many are more afraid of being isolated than they are of being wrong.”

The hatred engendered during that time still runs deep; to acknowledge that McIntyre and Gorman were right, and not just about the O’Connor murder but in their complete analysis of where the Provisional Movement was going, means these new dissidents – Provos ten years ago –  must acknowledge they were wrong, and accept some amount of guilt, not only for how they treated the likes of McIntyre and Gorman and other dissidents such as Brendan Hughes and, later, Richard O’Rawe, but for their complicity in enabling the Provisionals to lead Republicanism to where it is today: nowhere.

  • Alan Maskey

    Nice to see all of this being recalled. No doubt Gerry Adams forgot about it a long time ago. He is not the Teflon kid but he is untouchable.
    Isnt it amazing the UFF go into Ballymurphy and stiff the wrong Stakeknife, who also has an Italian name and that that guy’s family is harrassed both before and after the killing.
    By your friends you know them and any of Adams’ hirings would have brought down a real politician.

  • It’s a shame Mo Mowlam can’t be put on trial.

  • “…challenges were being made: the RIRA was making some inroads in recruitment and beginning to shake off the shackles of Omagh.”

    “…It arrested the emerging growth of dissident groups in Belfast…”

    The idea that there was some sort of resurgence among dissident republicans within a couple of years of the Omagh bomb is a poor piece of historical revisionism. If anything bedded republican voters down within the ‘peace process’ it was the actions of the dissidents at Omagh as much as wider reflection of the most likely strategy to achieve a united Ireland. There had been significant internal opposition to SF’s political strategy in parts of North Belfast prior to Omagh, most of it evaporated in the aftermath.
    The widely claimed evidence of dissident support is a elusive as ever – it’s never turned up on the streets in any meaningful way nor has anything remotely resembling it appeared electorally. But it does regularly turn up in print, nonetheless.
    I have yet to see any of those promoting this line of reasoning provide any coherent, measurable analysis of how exactly they see a united Ireland being achieved (presuming that is their ultimate aim). If denting SF is their main raison d’etre (as it currently seems to be), that is their prerogative, of course.

  • Mr Crowley

    You miss the point here John. The OP doesn’t clam that the dissidents were becoming huge; just that in belfast they were starting to gain a foothold. Of course Omagh strangled the growth of dissidents, as it was intended to, but at around 2000 there were rumbles and defections. Joe O Connor was killed in part to keep those numbers down, which it succeeded in. Only now, 10 years later, are we seeing visible movement and no, it’s not huge numbers, that’s not the point, what we are seeing now is likely part of what would have naturally hived off earlier had it not been for actions like the murder of Joe O Connor; which of course is why the Brits turned a blind eye to murder

  • fitzjameshorse1745

    Killing one of their own? The CIRA/RIRA types would never do that kinda thing. That guy in Derry…..Doherty was it?
    As John O’Neill has said this is a curious piece of re-writing history. But thats what dissidents and their unionist friends do best anyway.
    A curious thing also that Robert McCartneys murder by Provos did actually affect SF vote in East Belfast. Not just the sisters campaign but the fact that he was actually a “civilian” and the people of East Belfast identified with him.
    But the other murders including that of a “RIRA volunteer” (sic) in West and North Belfast……did not lead to a reduction in SF-IRA support presumably because the folks in West Belfast and North Belfast dont give a tinkers curse.

    They didnt care ten years ago and despite the best efforts of RIRA/CIRA (republican and unionist) apologists they dont care now.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Rusty,

    Excellently written – what is current level of intimidation in your view?

    If as you say “in enabling the Provisionals to lead Republicanism to where it is today:nowhere” what is the practical alternative going forward from where Republicanism is now?

  • fin

    Robert McCartney’s murder was ‘housekeeping’!! really, this is news to most people, and slightly weird that the Provos would do ‘housekeeping’ in such a manner ie a drunken fight in a pub and street

  • Mr Crowley

    Fitzhorse, when you have nothing to say it’s generally better to say nothing. Obviously this is a historical piece so its hardly going to bring in the Doherty killing, sure you might as well bring up Fra Collins while you’re at it. There is no historical revision going on here apart from your attempt to spin intimidation into community apathy.

  • Hmmmm. No, I’m pretty sure I understood the OP.

    You can’t seriously ask people to believe that Omagh was contrived to strangle the growth of the dissidents.

  • Mr Crowley

    The article doesn’t refer to the McCartney murder and cover up, which you have loyally degraded to drunken brawl, as housekeeping. Indeed it states that the McCartney murder was one of the incidents that led to the end of the ‘free run of housekeeping’. Very poor and dishonest attempt at spin.

  • Mr Crowley

    There is a wealth of evidence to suggest that is precisely what happened and there was historical precedence within the PRM campaign to back up the theory but that’s not the topic here; this thread is about the state-sanctioned murder of Joe O Connor.

  • fin

    “This free run of ‘housekeeping’ ran out of steam with 2 incidents”
    Possibly I’ve misread the paragraph was the McCartney murder housekeeping or not, the other incident involving Tohill was I believe ‘housekeeping’ they are mentioned in the same sentence.

    You too seem to be referring to McCartneys murder as pre-planned,

  • Mr Crowley

    You seem to be deliberately misinterpreting things. The McCartney murder and subsequent public revulsion coupled with provos being caught in a broad daylight abduction brought about an end to the ‘honeymoon period’ of housekeeping when they could get away with open and public murder in broad daylight.

  • The topic here is promoting a ‘dissident’ reading of recent history.

    So, if we are to take your argument that Joe O’Connor’s was a state-sanctioned murder, then surely Omagh would fall into the same category, with the same intended end purpose? Where is the wealth of evidence?

  • Mr Crowley

    Small matters such as the bomb being made by an agent, bomb warnings by another agent being ignored, the bomb car being supplied by a Gardaí agent and fitted with a GPS transponder which would have located the car to within 10 meters. That’s the same car that people were evaccuated towards. Omagh was a classic case of atrocity orchestration.

  • But, by your own account, does that not suggest that the ‘dissidents’, i.e. the RIRA/CIRA who carried out the Omagh bombing, are completely infiltrated by agents and so none of their actions can be taken at face value? So, shouldn’t we apply that to their literary actions as well?

  • Mr Crowley

    How would you refer to people, permitted by the state to carry out public executions in broad daylight, would ‘agents of the state’ be appropriate terminology?

  • The RIRA/CIRA carried out the Omagh bombing. Either as organisations that were heavily infiltrated by the state to discredit the cause they were supposedly pursuing (your reasoning) or as part of their strategy (sic) to achieve a united Ireland. If your conspiracy theory is applied, then the activities of the RIRA/CIRA are the opposite of what they claim to be, so why should anyone pay attention to their historical analysis?

  • Mr Crowley

    It’s Rusty Nail’s analysis John, well backed by relevant historical source material. We know that you don’t want people to look too deeply or think too much (indeed at all) about it but you can’t change what happened. Joe O Connor was gunned down by unmasked provos in broad daylight and the Brits let them get away with it. No amount of diversionary gymnastics on your part can change that.

  • “… don’t want people to look too deeply or think too much (indeed at all) …”

    Quite the opposite. Hence my questions, although I see at least one post by someone else calling all of this surreal has already been removed, so I guess there are others who don’t want people to look too deeply etc etc.

  • fin

    sorry Mr Crowley, I know its only a small part of the blog, but can we straigthen this out, there is no relation between housekeeping and murdering people in broad daylight (although they overlap)

    The 2 incidents are to me 1 case of housekeeping ie Tohill and one case of murder in broad daylight ie McCartney.

    My point is, I’ve never heard of the McCartney murder being ‘housekeeping’ rather a murder resulting from an arguement in a pub for which lots of people appear to have been in the toilets when it happened and apparently didn’t see anything.

  • fin

    test

  • Alan Maskey

    In the 1982 Leinster House ele3ction, Pat O’Connor, Huaghey’s election agent was charged with voter impersonation. So too was a padraig O’Connnor from Ballymurphy? This latter was soon expelled from PSF. Ids he related to Joe O’Connor? If so, it makes a murky situation as little murkier?

  • Neil

    I’d agree it is well written, and food for thought.

  • Mr Crowley

    Nobody is suggesting that the McCartney murder was ‘housekeeping’ despite the fact they were allowed to get away with it. The McCartney murder was one of the incidents which led to the previous period of unrestricted housekeeping, such as the Joe O Connor murder, coming to an end. What part of this is so difficult for you to understand?

  • Johnkingii

    Sectarian psychopathic killers killing sectarian psychopathic killers sorry but hard to feel any empathy here

  • fitzjameshorse1745

    Intimidation?
    SF-IRA could not intimidate four sisters from the Short Strand so it is not credible that RIRA/CIRA apologists use that excuse in West Belfast.
    Murdering a civilian from East Belfast costs SF.
    Murdering some RIRA types in West Belfast, SF gets five out of six seats.
    I have absolutely no idea who Fra Collins is. Nor do I want to know. And had totally forgotten who Joe O’Connor was.as have 90% of folks in West Belfast.

    The dissident apologists and their unionist supporters share the common unionist angst about not understanding why SF voters dont get worked up about murders such as Jean McConville, La Mon, Bloody Friday, Enniskillen.
    No SF voter cares….enough ….to change their vote.

  • slappymcgroundout

    “Sectarian psychopathic killers killing sectarian psychopathic killers”

    Not the way that I would phrase the matter. I would instead phrase the matter as: A rather rich hypocrisy, to engage in an insurgency and then cry foul when some other insurgents off one of yours.

    I otherwise didn’t know that Slugger is in the business of publishing RIRA propaganda material.

    Lastly, in response to folks in the Republican Writers Group, well, for all those years, you said that it was “war” and so you demanded to be treated like POWs. Fine. Joe got killed in a war. That’s not crime, and he’s not “victim”. Instead, he’s KIA. End of story. And, please, don’t confuse the matter. Dead Joe wasn’t out there mounting a civilian political campaign. He was an insurgent. He died an insurgent’s death. Again, end of story. When Sinn Fein starts to off the SDLP folk, then you can complain about how they are stifling domestic politics. Or better yet, since Slugger’s man Mark posts in favor of Eirigi, maybe he can tell us how many death threats he’s received from Sinn Fein/PIRA.

    For one last comment directed to the Repub Writers Group and their supporters (the author here being one), your man Rory O’Conner and some others were killed as retribution for Sean Hales. And so I can’t help but note your warped morals when you speak to Rory and Joe and have no word for Sean and Michael (Collins) and Kevin (O’Higgins). So, please, do the world a favor and simply put the pens down and/or turn the word processor off. In other words, going back to a rich hypocrisy, for you Repub Writers Group folk to expound on the evil of Repub killing Repub, and only mention Rory and Joe, and not Sean and Michael and Kevin, well, that’s indeed a rather rich exposition in hypocrisy. Matter of fact, it rather annihilates your entire thesis, which claims to be:

    “No party has the right to kill a republican and thereafter escape public condemnation for their actions. To allow any party to do so would be to invite a situation similar to that pertaining to the Argentina of the Generals – where political opponents could disappear without trace or explanation and where a political opinion is held subject to the tolerance of the assassin.”

    Tolerance. Just as your kind showed tolerance and assassinated Sean Hales, Michael Collins and Kevin O’Higgins. The simple and obvious truth here, at least for those with functioning cerebral cortexes, is that it was your side that started that war by occupying the Four Courts. And you didn’t bring marshmallows and hot dogs to roast over a fire, but guns. And now you claim to have some moral objection to use of the gun to settle political disputes? As we here say in America, puhhhhhleazzzzzze!

  • fin

    so was Tohill ‘housekeeping, I think most people do. if so I’m sure you can see how people might get the wrong impression by both incidents been mentioned in a sentence which begins “This free run of ‘housekeeping’ ran out of steam with 2 incidents….”

    especially as the tone of the blog is about republican ‘housekeeping’

  • Alan Maskey

    Good American logic that which tells us that:
    1. Any militant Irish militant who gets offed is getting his just desserts.
    2. They are fair game.
    3. PIRA are doing us a favour by offing them, the same kind of favour the UFF and the FRU previously gave us.

  • fin

    And Mr Crowley, you need to be careful of people who read history books and with that benefit proceed to tell you what people were ‘obviously’ thinking at the time, had Rusty announced in 2005 that this was how things would be than I’d be the first to give her a hat-tip but to take historical fact and weave a story out of it well to be honest I think Catherine Cookson is a better read.

  • Johnkingii

    Any militant Irish militant who gets offed is doing us all a favour less Bloody Fridays La Mons Enniskillen Darkley the list of glorious actions is unfortunately long

  • pippakin

    It is one thing for terrorists to murder each other, presumably each of them knew the risks. It is quite another when one group chooses to terrorise innocent people and pregnant women. I have great sympathy for the O’Connors and the McIntyres. To be threatened for telling what they insist is the truth is outrageous.

    Robert McCartney was murdered and whilst the murder itself was not PIRA the clean up and cover up was. Similarly Paul Quinn’s murder may not have been IRA but the silence and fear has IRA all over it.

    If SF are unable or unwilling to rid themselves of the murderous element they do not have a long term future on the island of Ireland, just a long term past.

  • Mr Crowley

    People could only have gotten the apparently wrong impression that you got through being eiither stupid or selective in their comprehension in the hope of creating a diversion. You appear to be straddling both positions.

  • Alias

    As recently as 2009, Gerry Adams was frequently photographed with a bodyguard, whose name had long been associated with the murder of Joe O’Connor. It was a double message being sent, for Adams to have employed him in such a visible position: “We can get away with murder, we are untouchable”.

    Her Majesty’s security services will continue to protect its touts for as long as they continue to promote British national interests. While Adams’ supporters use convoluted logic to explain with conflation of interests along the lines that the British state is covertly promoting a republican agenda rather than ‘republicans’ being used by the British state to promote its agenda, his former supporters are prevented by their vanity from grasping that they were employed in service of the British state when they were in Adams’ employment. NI’s ‘republicans’ are the ideal personification of the definition of stupidity…

  • It is easy to see why this piece worries some SF members, as it raises real questions about whether a section of the Provisional republican leadership colluded with the British State in carrying out criminal activities up to and including murder.

    Something Republicans have condemned loyalist para militaries for doing in the past. The more one looks at the killing of O’Connor the more it looks like a Provo provocation intended to provoke O’Connors comrades into retaliating against his killers.

    What ever the reasoning behind this republican’s death, it was hardly the Provos finest hour and as his name has been mentioned, the RIRA murder of their volunteer Kieran Doherty, for his involvement in a mini cannabis farm falls into much the same category, as neither acts could have remotely advanced the political reunification of Ireland.

    As to the British State, information is now coming out of Iraq that UK and US forces and intel services colluded with ‘insurgent’ groups to commit the most heinous crimes, including bank robbery and murder, so why I ask would Ireland have been any different?

    Most wars end in a filthy whimper and the Provo insurgency was no exception, the more so as there were no clear winners in the field. The tragedy for those republicans who are still engaged in armed struggle is they are still fighting the last war; and I doubt they will ever gain the same degree of mass support the Provos once achieved.

    Rusty’s piece is about as near to the truth as we are likely to get, I just wish once when this type of piece is published, a SF supporter would come on slugger and say yes, with hindsight, we got it wrong there, what were we thinking of picketing former comrades homes for speaking what amounted to the truth.

    The SF leadership remind me of Tony Blair, willing to apologies for abstract things, but when it comes to their own acts or decisions, which have broken the hearts of real people, they have nothing to say.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    mickhall

    “a SF supporter would come on slugger and say yes, with hindsight, we got it wrong there”

    As someone who has posted many times in favour of SF on here may I say, that in so far as the allegations are corect (and they surely sound like it ) SF/PIRA got it horribly wrong there .

  • fin

    Geez that’s you and Pip who call me stupid when I ask a question, I’ll stick me pointy hat on and stand in the corner than

  • fin

    “It is easy to see why this piece worries some SF members, as it raises real questions about whether a section of the Provisional republican leadership colluded with the British State in carrying out criminal activities up to and including murder.”

    No it doesn’t, and can you give examples of these ‘criminal activities’

    “As to the British State, information is now coming out of Iraq that UK and US forces and intel services colluded with ‘insurgent’ groups to commit the most heinous crimes, including bank robbery and murder”

    Love how this is as far as people like you and Turgon go, the worst our squaddies can do is collude, Yeeeeaaah apart from all the direct murders in those far flung places

    “Most wars end in a filthy whimper and the Provo insurgency was no exception”

    Well, as the provo’s came about after unionist pogroms etc, its probably better to focus on the failure of unionism in all this,

    “The tragedy for those republicans who are still engaged in armed struggle is they are still fighting the last war; and I doubt they will ever gain the same degree of mass support the Provos once achieved.”

    Actually they might do, unionism messed up by refusing to work with the likes of the SDLP, once SF gained ground unionists desperately wanted to work with the SDLP, today unionists don’t want to play ball with SF, be carefull you might end up having to work with RSF or Eirigi someday and thean it’ll be to late to want to deal with SF or the SDLP

    “Rusty’s piece is about as near to the truth as we are likely to get, ”

    Hahahahahahaha

    “The SF leadership remind me of Tony Blair”

    Shouldn’t do as SF know the reasons why their war is fought, whereas Tony is still trying to justify starting wars

  • Mr Crowley

    Fin,

    “No it doesn’t, and can you give examples of these ‘criminal activities”

    It does for when anyone remotely objective reads the article and the article itself details a major criminal activity; the murder of Joe O Connor. Are you going to try and tell us that the PRM didn’t carry out this criminal act?

    “Shouldn’t do as SF know the reasons why their war is fought, whereas Tony is still trying to justify starting wars”

    The PSF leader won’t even admit to fighting a war and has memory lapses covering about 30 years of it.

    I hope you’re tipped for a bright future in PSF Fin.

  • Rory Carr

    “I otherwise didn’t know that Slugger is in the business of publishing RIRA propaganda material.” says a disappointed Slappy McGroundnut but he shouldn’t concern himself overmuch I think. Insofar as Rusty Nail’s piece above may be viewed as promoting those dissident groups who would continue to murder and maim to support their twisted egotism it will be seen on Slugger as a small price to pay in return for a broadside directed at Sinn Féin. It’s the old “my enemy’s enemy is my friend” policy working itself out in blogland. (Or Bogland blogland anyway.)

  • Mr Crowley

    “Insofar as Rusty Nail’s piece above may be viewed as promoting those dissident groups who would continue to murder and maim”

    There’s no promotion of murder or maiming in the OP, quite the opposite infact. Your rather obvious smear attempt betrays your true problem with the article…it tells the truth about a state sanctioned murder carried out by the PRM; executioners for the crown. How can a discussion of a PRM murder be anything other than a “broadside directed at Sinn Féin”; particularly when the party leader was allegedly for long protected by one of the gunmen?

  • Rory Carr

    I can well understand, Mr Crowley how you would not view unstinting support for the dissidents as promoting murder and maiming since you seem to consider in a earlier reply above that it was not the RIRA/CIRA who were responsible for the slaughter at Omagh but rather a series of “agents”, presumably British agents in the main but also, according to you, one agent at least of the Garda Síochána. It’s always somebody else’s fault, isn’t it, when the bad stuff starts to rebound?

  • Rory Carr

    p.s.

    I see that Tony Curtis has died suddenly in Hollywood, California. While the world mourns and while there is still some value to be had from the speculation, we must ask ourselves what role the PSF might have had in his untimely end.

  • Mr Crowley

    Comments made by me subsequent to Rusty’s OP are nothing more than follow up comments by a reader and have as much bearing on the OP as do yours.

    I challenge you to quote one phrase from the OP which promotes or supports the current armed militancy instead of highlighting the bankruptcy of your position with pathetic attempts at diversion and deflection.

  • Mr Crowley

    Are you attempting to give Tony Curtis a posthumous role in deflecting attention from the PRM murder of Joe O Connor?

  • pippakin

    Rory Carr

    “I see that Tony Curtis has died suddenly in Hollywood, California. While the world mourns and while there is still some value to be had from the speculation, we must ask ourselves what role the PSF might have had in his untimely end.”

    Kearney, McCartney, Quinn and so many others.

    Unbelievable.

  • West Sider

    Here are some interesting articles on this, written at the time, and will help those get a clearer perspective on Rusty Nail’s analysis, memory and motives.

    http://www.seeingred.com/Copy/3.4_ballymurphy.html

    Key section:

    The day before the funeral, Suzanne Breen’s ‘republican sources’ went public with a news conference. The two ‘sources’, Tommy Gorman and Tony McIntyre, proceeded to name the entire command structure of the North Belfast IRA and charge them with murder. Need I say that such behavior is considered socially inappropriate in Ballymurphy?

    They also told the media that they had fabricated the “eyewitness testimony” and then regaled them with their theory of the murder. Gorman and McIntyre are former republican political prisoners, who have broken with the IRA and now publish an occasional journal of supposed “Trotskyist” theory.(7) According to these ‘sources’ the IRA had killed Joe O’ Connor and run some drug dealers out of the neighborhood, all as part of a plot to suppress their little magazine, “Fourth Write.”(8) I wish I had been there to see the facial expressions of the various media people

    The next day was the funeral and in spite of the efforts of the various republican “dissidents” to muster support, about two hundred people came — probably the smallest republican funeral in Ballymurphy’s history. At the cemetery the local members of the “Real IRA,” seven men and one woman, showed off their new AK-47s and pledged revenge attacks on Sinn Fein and the IRA. The main speaker at the funeral, Marion Price, former republican POW, denounced the IRA as fascists and paid agents of British imperialism.(9)

    I think the “dissidents” were startled by the degree of hatred, contempt and social ostracism that greeted their politically sectarian demonstration. By the following day, the “Real IRA” and the two ‘sources’ found themselves awash in a sea of hostility. Mass picketing of the Gorman and McIntyre houses ensued. Gorman has since apologized to the community and departed for parts unknown. McIntyre continues to portray himself as a victim of a plot and at least MaGill’s magazine and the Arm the Spirit Collective (both of Canada) take this seriously.

    Everyone should consider this: Ballymurphy is, as I described it, a community forged by thirty years of conflict into a fortress of republicanism. Really, one fourth of the population have served long prison sentences for the republican cause. Almost anyone you meet on the street is a republican and a very high percentage are either former or current members of the IRA.

    In that context, the accusations and threats at the O’ Connor funeral were regarded as personal insults and personal threats by the overwhelming majority of the population. As for McIntyre and Gorman; if the IRA were not on cease fire, their bodies would have simply been found dumped by the road. Giving details of the IRA command structure and attempting to set up people on murder charges are acts of battlefield betrayal to the veteran folk of Ballymurphy.

    Next –

    http://www.mail-archive.com/kominform@lists.eunet.fi/msg04084.html

    Key section:

    Local republican maverick and self-styled dissident Tommy Gorman has issued a dramatic apology for a statement issued last Tuesday (October 17) which sparked widespread anger in the Upper Springfield area.

    Gorman, a well known community worker and ex-IRA prisoner, caused “deep anger” among local groups when he claimed that he and other members of the republican writers’ group Fourthright had “been given the unenviable task” of investigating the murder of Joe O’Connor and had, “after widespread consultation”, concluded that “It is our unshakeable belief that the Provisional IRA carried out this assassination,”.

    “Tommy Gorman consulted no one that we can identify” said a spokesperson for the Uper Springfield Community Forum, which met in the wake of the controversial statement.

    “There is palpable anger in this community about the way in which names were being bandied about willie-nillie in relation to the killing of Joe O’Connor.

    “Joe’s death was a shock to people locally and what was needed was for people to take a step back and cool the temprature before someone else was needlessly killed.

    “Tommy Gorman and his cohorts, instead inserted themselves into this volatile situation and after a spurious inquiry inflamed tensions and added credence to the claims by associates of Joe O’Connor’s that up to ten named individuals were in some way connected to this killing.”.

    The Ballymurphy and Springhill estates, which have been on a knife-edge ever since the killing, returned last week to levels of fear and uncertainty not witnessed since the late 1980s and early 1990s.

    Just how deep local feelings were running was evidenced by the pickets which local people placed on the homes of Fourthright leading lights Anthony McIntyre and Tommy Gorman on Thursday evening.

    Placards reading “speculation costs lives” were much in evidence as men and women descended on the homes.
    In his statement issued on Saturday Tommy Gorman was at pains to stress that he had never intended to endanger anyone.
    “Having spoken with friends and neighbours, I am now aware of the distress caused by the statement issued by myself and Anthony on Tuesday October 17,” he said.

    “Unfortunately the statement has resulted in making many people in the Ballymurphy and Springhill areas feel vulnerable. This we deeply regret.”

    ADDS: Interesting to read the apologists for Omagh on here claiming it was all a conspiracy.

    All those people are still dead – man, woman, child and unborn twins – that’s a fact. And the RIRA admitted it. Are the apologists splintering from this and saying that, no, they’re wrong, they didn’t do it.

    To those who do, I say this: SPLITTERS!

  • JJ malloy

    “We know that you don’t want people to look too deeply or think too much (indeed at all) about it but you can’t change what happened. Joe O Connor was gunned down by unmasked provos in broad daylight and the Brits let them get away with it. No amount of diversionary gymnastics on your part can change that.”

    How could you possibly acuse Mr O’Neil of that? I don’t see where you get that from. He brought up a cogent point that is getting in the way of the narrative that people want to focus on. He is not claiming that the Provo’s were not allowed to get away with murder. They were allowed to get away with murder by the British state they agreed to serve, just as the loyalists groups were allowed to get away with murder (and were often assisted and directed while doing so) by the British state.

  • fin

    Unfortunately SF don’t have a Croydon Cumann and I don’t get home often enough to get a career, is Rusty sorting out a Green Card for you Mr Crowley, you seem awful keen to please.

    Regarding who done what Mr Crowley, read the blog and see where the word ‘allegedly’ is used so I guess you and Rusty also have solid evidence concerning Mo Mowlams part in all this, ah damn, she’s dead so can’t sue, bugger….heyho, guess she’s a criminal

    I get the impression that a lot of people have done a lot more for the republican movement than you Mr Crowley, and especially more than the very late comer to the war Rusty Nail ( but then that’s typical of the Yanks)

  • West Sider

    ADDS:

    Re this section:

    The two ‘sources’, Tommy Gorman and Tony McIntyre, proceeded to name the entire command structure of the North Belfast IRA and charge them with murder. Need I say that such behavior is considered socially inappropriate in Ballymurphy?

    In republican circles this is known as felon setting. You can read more about it here:

    http://thepensivequill.am/2009/07/felon-setting.html

    If you don’t have a dictionary, you can learn about the word that’s in your head here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy

  • Alias

    “I challenge you to quote one phrase from the OP which promotes or supports the current armed militancy instead of highlighting the bankruptcy of your position with pathetic attempts at diversion and deflection.”

    Given that PSF’s salaries are paid by the British state, it’s probably the safer state to be employed by given Ireland’s financial circumstances. These turkeys would all vote no to a united Ireland since they would all be voting themselves out of employment. So they may be intellectualy bankrupt but they’ll never be financially bankrupt…

  • Mr Crowley

    That Roger Collins piece is a great example of the hate campaign being waged. It’s full of complete lies and basic mistakes – Ballymurphy is not in North Belfast, for starters.

    Your talk of a ‘news conference’ is a deliberate lie as is the reference to naming of Provo personell.

    The article which forms the second part of your diatribe is taken from the British-funded Andersonstown News; a fine example of propaganda and spin control in the aftermath of carrying out a murder in broad daylight. It’s ironic that an editor of the paper was one of the ‘local people’ who just happened to turn up and picket the home of a pregnant woman.

    Pathetic.

  • JJ malloy

    It cannot be done.

  • Mr Crowley

    You quote from the ATN and spout about ‘felon setting’; priceless. McIntyre and Gorman never named anyone, you are deliberately promoting a lie; not unlike the felon setting for which the ATN is renowned.

    On November 4 it was reported that ‘men were accused by leading dissident Anthony McIntyre of killing a Real IRA chief’. At no time did either Tommy Gorman or I accuse ‘men’. We named no one either publicly or in private. Individuals’ names were of no concern to us. We named an organisation, not its members, not anyone.

    http://tenyearson.wordpress.com/2000/10/13/time-for-physical-force-is-long-gone/

  • Mr Crowley

    On November 4 your paper quoted someone who picketed my home but who declined to disclose their identity, claiming that their brother-in-law had been ‘named in this so called investigation’. Where and by whom was this person named? Certainly not by us. We shall see the inside of a prison cell for the rest of our lives rather than name individuals.

    http://tenyearson.wordpress.com/2000/10/13/time-for-physical-force-is-long-gone/

    One article that completely destroys your deceitful position, West Sider. Any more smear attempts or would you like to discuss the topic; the state-sanctioned murder of Joe O Connor by the PRM, apparently you approve of this act.

  • JJ malloy

    As you say, the PIRA were allowed to get away with murder by the British state they agreed to serve, just as the loyalists groups were allowed to get away with murder (and were often assisted and directed while doing so) by the British state. As long as the murders were directed at insurgents and enemies of the british state…no harm no foul.

  • Mr Crowley

    McIntyre utterly refuted all of the above propaganda 10 years ago. The fact that you would attempt to regurgitate it shows that you are not only deceiful but unimaginative:

    On November 4 it was reported that ‘men were accused by leading dissident Anthony McIntyre of killing a Real IRA chief’. At no time did either Tommy Gorman or I accuse ‘men’. We named no one either publicly or in private. Individuals’ names were of no concern to us. We named an organisation, not its members, not anyone.

    On November 4 your paper quoted someone who picketed my home but who declined to disclose their identity, claiming that their brother-in-law had been ‘named in this so called investigation’. Where and by whom was this person named? Certainly not by us. We shall see the inside of a prison cell for the rest of our lives rather than name individuals.

    [The picket] was a Sinn Fein led attempt to intimidate me through my family. That is not to say that all those who participated had no genuine fears. Many had. Those fears, however, are fuelled less by what myself and Tommy Gorman said in our statement of October 17, and more by Sinn Fein falsehoods which amount to accusations that both of us endangered loved ones of the families involved in the picket.

    We endangered no one. Sinn Fein’s attempt to move the focus from a culpable organisation to ‘endangered individuals’ is the cynical exploitation of family fears. It has more to do with Sinn Fein fears for itself than for any family.

    The Ballymurphy community is indeed owed an answer. It is owed an answer as to why a member of that community was killed. Concerned relatives deserve answers also. We are prepared to address their fears. Sinn Fein is owed absolutely nothing and will receive as much.

    The irony of it all is that had the Real IRA have killed a Provisional IRA volunteer myself and Tommy Gorman would have behaved no differently. We would have repudiated them every bit as forcefully. The difference is that Sinn Fein would have cynically carried us through Ballymurphy shoulder high.

    Physical force republicanism has had its day with or without the Good Friday Agreement. Yet how can we ever begin to effectively move away from it for good if people are prepared by their actions to state that the gun still has a legitimate role in the settling of political disputes? How can the Real IRA ever be persuaded away from armed activity if the message transmitted to them through the killing of Joseph O’Connor is that republicanism still has a right to take life in pursuit of its goals? What merit has any condemnation of those who bombed Omagh if those condemning are prepared to reinforce the intellectual well from which the Real IRA drinks?

    What the sorry saga of the Joseph O’Connor killing has demonstrated is that, despite all the hand wringing and pious hypocrisy emanating from Provisional republican ranks in relation to the Omagh bombing, they themselves have their intellectual fingerprints all over that bomb. True condemnation would lead the way by rejecting the use of physical force entirely rather than murdering the volunteers of the Real IRA.

    http://tenyearson.wordpress.com/2000/10/13/time-for-physical-force-is-long-gone/

  • West Sider

    More on this:

    Dr Anto railed and spewed about the republican code of Omerta (his words) in the murder of Robert McCartney and others, and yet here we find this:

    http://thepensivequill.am/2009/03/against-odds.html

    Key section on a person arrested for the murder of Stephen Carroll:

    I found it so uplifting to read of the attitude adopted by the 17 year old referred to above while in the custody of British police officers. He was detained in an interrogation centre for longer than any other single person throughout the entire Northern conflict and not as much as uttered a word. When I read of his epic human resistance, images of Martin Lynch’s The Interrogation of Ambrose Fogarty and Martin Meehan’s Castlereagh flooded my mind; plays that captured the bad old days but which need updated to address the worse new days. Like so many before him who were hauled into those foreboding places he defied its oppressive culture. He stared at walls and floors, anything but talk to cops intent on using draconian British legislation against him. At a time when others would dismiss him as a suspect ‘traitor’ who deserves to be interrogated by British police officers investigating ‘treason’, and who stand shoulder to shoulder with his interrogators against him, urging others to inform on him, it was impossible for me not to admire his stamina and resolve in the face of overwhelming odds.

    For me, what he stands accused of is not the issue. For now it is an accusation, nothing more.

    I didn’t read those parts in bold when the Robert McCartney case came up – maybe some crimes are okay in this crazy universe.

  • Mr Crowley

    You’re just flailing now. Stop embarassing yourself.

  • West Sider

    Tommy Gorman did say this, did apologise, or was that a fake Tommy. Maybe it was Gerry Adams in a mask, on his knees, with a new voice.

    Feck, I’ve certainly touched a nerve among the Omagh apologists. Now that I’ve answered your questions, maybe you can answer mine:

    How many Omaghs will it take to free Ireland?

    I’ve another:

    If it was all a conspiracy, should all those connected with it be shot as being agents, given your bloody minded, crackpot, bonkers, sociopathic world view?

  • West Sider

    Means I’m getting somewhere. Hypocrisy. We read a lot about that on the PQ and TB. Eat it, friend. It’ll do you the world of good.

  • West Sider

    I never quoted from the ATN, so take that Straw Man and attempt to procreate with it. It will prove more productive than your contributions on here in defence of the killers of 31 Irish and Spanish people.

  • West Sider

    We named no one either publicly or in private. Individuals’ names were of no concern to us. We named an organisation, not its members, not anyone.

    So they’re Hugh Orde now, just after the Northern Bank was robbed.

    That’s not a good position to be in for ‘pure’ republicans who’ve spent the last 15 years claiming to be way and the truth and who’ve enjoyed a few bob hammering the Sf leadership.

  • West Sider

    The article which forms the second part of your diatribe is taken from the British-funded Andersonstown News

    Anto McIntyre has written for The Independent, The Guardian and The Daily Telegraph (for those who don’t know,this is a virulently pro-Irish republican broadsheet, to the left of An Phoblacht) and….

    Well, I’ve nothing left to say.

  • Here is a link of my own contribution to Joe’s unjustified killing:

    http://ardoynerepublican.blogspot.com/2010/09/volunteer-joe-oconnor-ten-years-on.html

  • Mr Crowley

    You’re either a liar or a fool as the article you quoted was from the ATN. This is a reproduction of an article that ran in the Andersonstown News – http://www.mail-archive.com/kominform@lists.eunet.fi/msg04084.html
    Self-styled republican dissident Tommy Gorman, has moved to dispel the anger caused in the Upper Springfield community following a highly inflammatory statement issued last Tuesday in which it was claimed that republican writer’s group Fourthwrite had been “asked to investigate” the killing of l…

    Oh look it’s the one you ‘never quoted from the ATN’. Is it arrogance or ignorance that ails you?

  • Mr Crowley

    You make much mention of the alleged statement made by Tommy Gorman which was reported on by the ATN, which you didn’t quote Unfortunately for your argument (regurgitated propaganda and lies) there exist two contemporary and uneditted statements given by Tommy Gorman at the time:

    The full, unedited statement of Tommy Gorman to the Irish News on 20, October, 2000.

    Having talked with many of my friends and neighbours, I am now aware of the distress caused by the recent statement issued by myself and Anthony McIntyre on Tuesday 17 October 2000 and carried in the Irish News of that date. My purpose was not to cause distress and it was certainly not my intention to endanger anyone.

    My only concern was to prevent further internecine bloodletting. It was and remains my opinion that this is best done by the achievement of two things.

    First is the realisation that nobody can be shot dead without questions being asked as to the reason and the source of the action.

    Secondly that by demonstrating clearly that it is possible to use moral persuasion to prevent further loss of life, angry young men may be dissuaded from resorting to bloodletting in a misguided attempt to seek revenge.

    My first objective has in some way been fulfilled and I pray that my second objective remains a reality.

    Tommy Gorman

    And there is this one as well which ironically could be a direct reply to you:

    Some media coverage of late pertaining to myself and Anthony McIntyre has been less than accurate and in a minority of cases, most notably that of one Sunday conduit masquerading as a writer, downright malicious. Elsewhere, well-intentioned claims that either of us had made a mistake and now recognise the error of our ways are not borne out by the facts. Republicans should neither kill nor be killed. More than anything else, it is the failure of others to speak out on such matters which makes our position appear all the more trenchant. The situation is exacerbated when some, such as the comradely Jim McCorry, think that one of us may have more right to speak than others. This is wrong. Everyone has an equal right to express their views whatever their perspective, past or present. To argue otherwise is to give people a privileged advantage which actually runs against the grain of the democratic free flow of ideas.

    Freedom of political expression is a necessity if republicanism is to fulfil its stated task of liberation. The absence of such freedom may be measured by the price we have paid for adhering to this principle. Intimidation, harassment and vilification have become the stock-in-trade for those who wish to suppress this fundamental right. That is not to say that all who oppose us resort to this. Indeed a substantial number of our critics have waged courageous and up-front critiques of our position.

    In any event, despite the cost we have never shied away from publicly identifying ourselves as the authors of anything we may have said. Those who want to speak to the public should not do so with a bag over their heads. Or is contempt for the public such that the public have no right to know who is speaking publicly? Indeed, our refusal to hide behind cowardly anonymity has marked us out for the demonisation we endure.

    The American death row writer Mumia Abu-Jamal recently said that ‘I hated the fear that loomed over me as I approached stories or subjects that I knew could get me into trouble.’ And so it has been with us. But that fear must be confronted or nothing will change. It is never easy but we are at all times prepared to risk public flak and organised hounding. Others who have only the cowardice of their convictions seek to hide behind the shield of a pen name and engage in the practice of Swingerology – taking anonymous swingers at those prepared to be openly forthright in their views. Small wonder that we waste no time in debating with such types. What price do they have to pay for standing over whatever views they hold? Obviously, they have no faith in their own position – otherwise why distance their identity from it?

    The struggle for freedom of political expression shall continue unabated. Escaping censored Ireland rather than reinforcing its existence has been a prime objective of Irish republicanism. This requires the taking of certain risks. It is an objective that shall never be achieved if a situation prevails where the true renegades are those who renege from their own identities.


    Both statements of Tommy Gorman can be found here:
    http://tenyearson.wordpress.com/2000/10/13/statements/

  • West Sider

    Yes, it is ATN. I just discovered that. Thank you. Do you accept it, or the London Guardian, Times, Independent, or Daily Telegraph.

    Tell us, which one is it? They’re all Brit funded, so tell us all – which one is more deserving of your endorsement?

    Are all those McIntrye articles in said newspapers now invalid?

    I’m all ears…

  • West Sider

    Freedom of political expression is a necessity if republicanism is to fulfil its stated task of liberation. The absence of such freedom may be measured by the price we have paid for adhering to this principle. Intimidation, harassment and vilification have become the stock-in-trade for those who wish to suppress this fundamental right. That is not to say that all who oppose us resort to this. Indeed a substantial number of our critics have waged courageous and up-front critiques of our position.

    Vilification, now there’s a word that sums up the entire outpourings of the keyboard warriors of the dissie variety including the post on this blog we all came in on.

    Funny that.

  • JJ malloy

    Munsterview, where are you on this one? We could use your input.

    Although I wouldn’t be surprised if you were sitting this one out, as they say.

  • slappymcgroundout

    (1) Didn’t say that. Said instead, if you engage in a violent insurgency, don’t go home crying to mother than one of yours was offed by the some other violent insurgents. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

    (2) Didn’t say that either.

    (3) For the third time, didn’t say that. But glad you brought up the UFF. As the PIRA could claim, though they don’t, since they deny killing your man, but the PIRA could say that to the extent that the UFF returns the serve by killing random Catholics in the street, then by killing all known RIRA members, the PIRA is protecting Catholics from being randomly shot by the UFF, since sooner or later the RIRA will a Protestant and the UFF will then return the serve.

  • slappymcgroundout

    Sorry, omitted a word there and so that last line should read, after the last comma, “since sooner or later the RIRA will kill a Protestant and the UFF will then return the serve.”

  • “First is the realisation that nobody can be shot dead without questions being asked as to the reason and the source of the action.”

    “Tommy Gorman”

    Considering the pressures Tommy was under at the time he made this statement, I believe most people far from condemning him would doff their cap to him.

    Westsider

    Many able people within the PRM have trawled through every line of Anthony McIntyre’s writings, in the hope of finding a hook on which to hang him, not one found him deviating from his core Irish republican beliefs. I do not wish to be cruel but to suggest McIntyre in any way holds a brief for Trotskyism is so far off the wall it does display either a certain ignorance or mischief making.

    Like all of us the man is not perfect, If you disagree with his take, I would advise dealing with the issues he raises or in this case those of Rusty Nail in the opinion piece in question.
    —————
    Fin

    When I first read the question you put to me I thought you cannot be serious, but it seems you are so I will give you the names of two senior republican’s who colluded with the UK State in committing crimes, Fred Scappiticci and Denis Donaldson, I could name more but you get my drift.
    ——————————
    Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit.

    Thanks, I appreciate your honesty, I have never been one who believes the leadership of SF is made up of villain’s, they are a group of ordinary human beings who found themselves in an extraordinary situation; and at times made mistakes. In the O’Connor case, men like those whom Rusty mentions who held senior positions in the PIRA were solders and looked for solders solutions to solve what were political problem’s.

    They made a wrong judgement call which resulted in the death of a fellow republican. Whilst disagreeing with many of the decisions Gerry Adams made, it would be wrong not to mention under his leadership he has always been against settling political difference with the gun. The O’Connor case was not the norm but an abberation.

  • fin

    “as it raises real questions about whether a section of the Provisional republican leadership colluded with the British State in carrying out criminal activities up to and including murder.”

    “When I first read the question you put to me I thought you cannot be serious, but it seems you are so I will give you the names of two senior republican’s who colluded with the UK State in committing crimes, Fred Scappiticci and Denis Donaldson, I could name more but you get my drift.”

    Thats not a section, that’s individuals, oh course there’s been loads of agents and collusion, sorry I thought you had evidence of an offical agreement between a section of the leadership and the BA/RUC

  • Mr Crowley

    MIck,

    "Whilst disagreeing with many of the decisions Gerry Adams made, it would be wrong not to mention under his leadership he has always been against settling political difference with the gun."

    It should also be noted that a good many political differences were settled for Adams by British and Loyalist guns; particularly within the context of ‘peace process facilitation’.

  • mcclafferty32

    Is this what the GFA has turned into…republicans killing republicans? Republican families being traumatized and threatened because they speak out against the status-quo? PSF backing the RUC/PSNI and the Diplock court system? The Brits must be very proud of themselves as they sit back and watch PSF and the “dissidents” turn on one another. It is disgusting and disgraceful to watch these organizations doing the Brits dirty work for them. How sad.

  • Mr Crowley

    True, this has always been the way of the UK State, they are up to this dirty game today in Afghanistan, with their good Taliban, bad Taliban, and US drones and collateral damage. Of course when they talk of good or bad what they mean is Taliban whom they believe are more open to ISAF enticement and persuasion.

    This does not mean those Taliban they anoint with a protected species tag are acting in collusion with ISAF intel, it simply means security service boffins have concluded at some time, ISAF’s interests and those of the ‘good’ Taliban may in the future converge and when/if this occurs they will have negotiating partners they can cut a deal with.

    If Ireland is anything to go by, the spooks will also be trying to entice, corrupt or blackmail individuals who are close to these ‘good’ Talib leaders so they can use them to nudge the process forward.

    Although in such a fractious country it is difficult to see if this strategy will work, the soviets played the same game and lost and the USA thought they had brought all the main Mujahideen only to find out after the Soviets left the US had failed to purchase a ‘controlling’ interest, but then that was when the Taliban came in.

  • Mr Crowley

    Mick,

    You are also talking about situations where the most corrupted and compromised are elevated and maintained through ‘weeding out’ the more idealistic and uncorruptable. There are certain parallels where for example the President of Afghanistan has a brother flor long known to UK/US as a major heroin trafficker and the President of PSF has a brother long known to the British to be an alleged paedophile. Puppets on strings.

  • old school

    Was anyone ever arrested or even questioned for this murder?
    I know they raided RSF’s office immediately after to foment confusion, but was that the end of the “investigation”.
    Mo Mowlam was a hag who saw the shootings, beatings and killings of Republicans as beneficial to the “Peace Process”.
    The Brits used the Provos as a counter gang. This was AFTER the GFA was signed. What a charade. Nothing has changed.
    R.I.P Joe.

  • Alan Maskey

    Is Conor Murphy correct to say Gregory who got 4 years today was an MI5 puppet in RIRA?

  • slappymcgroundout

    “Was anyone ever arrested or even questioned for this murder?”

    That might be hard to do, since the humans who claim to know the identity of the perps refuse to divulge their identity. That’s how absurd your and their complaint.

  • fin

    Didn’t he go to prison for trafficking?

    And when do you think the RUC found out about Adams brother, possibly when he went to the police to report him.

    How could either be a puppet?

  • JJ malloy

    “Whilst disagreeing with many of the decisions Gerry Adams made, it would be wrong not to mention under his leadership he has always been against settling political difference with the gun. ”

    I do commend him for his role in the peace process..without his efforts and work it would have been hard to get most of the Provo’s to end their insurgency, even though it had run its course more than a decade before and wasn’t anywhere near achieving it’s stated goals.

    However, I have a hard time believing that accepting that statement. Surely, soldiers and others were killed by guerrillas under his command.

    In addition to what Crowley has mentioned, I’d wager that many of Adam’s loyalists used the gun to silence critics within their ranks..with or without Adams explicit direction.

  • JJ malloy

    Intersting tidbit

    ISAF=I Saw Americans Fight

    My cousin has done two tours over there, another has done one more, and my uncle (a marine colonel) is over there now. This is what they have told me the rank and file say that ‘ISAF’ really stands for to many of them. Most of the nations who lend support confine their soldiers to bases, where they drink beer and are often out of shape and overweight.

    British forces are respected by Americans, and don’t fall into that category. But just about everyone else is “worthless”.

    *(My relatives are Americans)

  • Macbhrad

    A thousand Words of lies and untruths. The public meeting definetely did not turn into a heated debate. 2 points raised from the floor were actually laughed at due to the ridiculous analogy put forward to explain it and that was the extent of the dissent. The Ballymurphy election count explains all you need to know about the continuing support for the republican movement in this area. You will also find that Councillor Cush has been elected twice with a massive mandate whilst the McIntyres of this world are left to grumble away on their website with around a dozen nodding dogs salivating at his every word after he jumped into bed with the criminals that the good people of Ballymurphy are better without.