Date and venue set for round 2

Greater Ardoyne Resident’s Collective (GARC) spokesman Mairtin Og Meehan has confirmed the group’s intention to stage a protest at the Apprentice Boy’s parade past Ardoyne on August 14, reports the newsletter.

ABOD Ligoniel Walker Club have sought permission for a parade with one band and up to 90 participants, with August 4 the date set for the Parades Commission’s consideration of  the application.

Meehan said if the “socially detached and discredited Parades Commission” allow the Apprentice Boys to march past Ardoyne then, “Yes, there will be a peaceful and dignified protest held by the Greater Ardoyne Residents Collective in opposition to such a march.”

Meehan who was arrested and charged with ‘obstructive sitting’ during the Crumlin Road protest has also today on republican forums ruled out any possibility of GARC seeking permission from the Parades Commission for the Apprentice Boys protest. The Parades Commission confirmed yesterday that GARC’s sit-down protest on July 12 was deemed illegal as the Group did not apply for it under legislation regulating parades and related protests. The Commission also affirmed that illegal parades and protests are not a matter for them, but the PSNI.

The fact that the Apprentice Boys parade takes place between 8am and 9.15am on a Saturday morning with no return leg might just diffuse some of the tension and violence of the ‘Twelfth’ rioting in the area.

However another sit-down protest on the road will in all likelihood instigate a confrontation with police, who you would expect to arrive better prepared after their initial dumbstruck efforts to disperse the GARC protesters on the ‘Twelfth’.

By coincidence August 14 is also the opening day of the 2010/11 SPL season with Celtic due to kick off in a noon game away to Inverness that Sky are televising. Ridiculous as this may sound, bars full of people drinking from morning at a flash-point with a heavy police presence is hardly going to help matters.

Elsewhere Gerry Adams said today that Sinn Fein remain “unequivocal” in their opposition to “so-called dissident groups exploiting the tensions and fears surrounding Orange marches”.

Adams appealed for leaders of loyal orders to meet with him and said;

No accurate financial cost has been placed on this years violence but in a reply to an Assembly question the PSNI estimated that the cost of policing the parades for the period June to August last year was around £2,899,770; the vast majority of these costs would have been incurred policing LOL, Black and Apprentice Boys parades.

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  • joeCanuck

    To have to tolerate one band and 90 participants early in the morning does not seem to be a great “burden”.
    Counter demonstration (non-violent) should also be totally acceptable.
    Hope all goes peacefully this time.

  • fitzjameshorse1745

    It doesnt seem like a big deal…90 people and one band at an ungodly hour on a Saturday morning.
    My only caveat would be that I dont like woken up by car alarms and taxi drivers…..so Id certainly not like woken up by a marching band…..whether of the dignified marching band or the local kick the Pope band.
    Presumably there are laws about causing noise and the Orange Order could use a little tact and say that it might be more appropriate NOT to play music at an early hour.
    And a dignified and peaceful protest……certainly that would be a novelty.

  • joeCanuck

    Yes, FJH. We are, unusually, in agreement.
    Wouldn’t both sides be satisfied with the marchers marching to the cadence of a single drum while passing the disputed area?

  • old school

    So the only reason Adams opposes Orange marches in Nationalist areas is the cost to the British Excheqeur???
    Gerry is in La La land.

  • Mark McGregor

    ”Obstructuve sitting’ wtf is that when it’s at home? What next? Possession of a poster with offensive grammar? Using a hanging apostrophe with intent? Displaying stretch marks in front of a minor?

    This is the reformed PSNI using charges on ‘sitting’?

  • Hard hat

    Laws about causing noise apply between 11pm and 7am I believe. The parade in question is an Apprentice Boys parade. I noticed on 12th July morning that the local band “Pride of Ardoyne” although entitled to play hymns, stuck to a single drum beat. When asked why, they said that they understood (correctly as it happens) that a funeral mass was underway in Holy Cross Church. Two remarkable points there (i) the outbreak of decency and (ii) the gesture came from a band populated by residents of the Ardoyne area (none of whom received any survey from GARC). Residents know that progress has been made by CARA and N&W Belfast Parades Forum to the benefit of both Loyalist and Republican communities in Ardoyne and there is worry and concern that some cannot stomach it. There is talk that the dissident leader is beginning to resemble a loyalist renegade counterpart – some are dubbing him Mairtin (mad d)og Meehan.

  • ranger1640

    Don’t we all love the republican contrived victim-hood In one report Marian Kane says the funeral of her husband was disrupted by the parade and the violence??? I thought the funeral took place in the morning and there was no republican violence after the parade in the morning. They kept their violence for later that day.

    Then the other report says the funeral proceeded unhindered.

    So what is it, was it disrupted or not????

    Just another wee issue, the parade does not go through Ardoyne it goes along the Crumlin road and past the shop front on the Crumlin road. The Ardoyne is the area behind the shops.

    To get offended you need to come some way, but that’s what republicans do best go along way to be offended.

    A north Belfast pensioner has pleaded for compromise on Orange marches in Ardoyne after her husband’s funeral was disrupted by the annual Twelfth parade and violence which followed.

    Former cross-community worker Marian Kane (62), from Estoril Park, who only buried her son Mark 20 days ago and lost two homes during the Troubles, says she has “had enough” and has been left “emotionally drained” after recent events.

    Such is her frustration, she even interrupted a Press conference by Sinn Fein’s Gerry Kelly to voice her disgust at the impasse.

    Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/ardoyne-pensionerrsquos-plea-after-parade-and-violence-disrupts-husbands-funeral-14875627.html#ixzz0uSL05XuY

    Early the next day, scores of local residents under the umbrella of C.A.R.A. peacefully demonstrated against the march on the Crumlin Road. Unfortunately scores of ‘Stewarts’ the majority of who were Provisional Sinn Fein attempted to intimidate GARC Activists present. The protest itself was totally dignified and respectful because the funeral of a local man was due to pass the same spot some thirty minutes later. As such, residents ensured that the funeral proceed unhindered.

    http://ardoynerepublican.blogspot.com/

  • Ground Hog Day? I really hope not, I hope this parade passes peacefully and, considering the hour, quietly, and any protest is equally peaceful.

    ‘Obstructive sitting’? I love the idea of that!

  • old school

    Hard hat,
    Rollover and be and good dog.
    Now you’re comparing peaceful protesting by local residents with Johnny Adairs antics??
    Catch yourself on ffs!!

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Mark how would you feel about a bunch of pedants sitting on the M1 when you were trying to get home?

    As for Gerry’s concern for British funds, I’d personally say that 2.8 million on policing is money a damn sight better spent than the 5 million pissed up the wall on promoting Ulster-Scots and a fraction of the 25 million lovingly lavished on a language that less than 3% of Ireland’s population actively speak.

    GARC need to get down to Poundworld, invest in a nice set of earplugs and have a lie-in. Who could be arsed to get up on a Saturday morning to be offended by 90 apprentice boys dandering past once a year?

    I have to put up with bleeping builders five mornings a week constructing houses I’d been assured would never be built — I’ll swap my situation with the GARC lads any time.

  • Mark McGregor

    Some aren’t dubbing him that. A single SF supporter, you, has just started to do it after the attack signal was clearly given by the big boy (Kelly) from outside the area. Funny to watch though, this pretending from the ‘I ain’t a shinner but ‘mob

  • old school

    Funny how Adams was not charged with “obstructive sitting” in the Ormeau Rd 1997, and neither was Mc Guinness on the Derry Walls the same year.

  • slug

    Meehan is the socially detatched one, frankly.

  • old school

    Play the ball, Slug.

  • old school

    …or you’re banned.

  • fitzjameshorse1745

    Actually passing a funeral Mass and/or house it is normal decency which the Orange Bands often observe in rural areas where they tend to do these things better.
    Frankly the Belfast Orange Order and bands are not always as accomodating.
    Certainly on one occasion that I know ofa band struck up (not exactly spontaneously) “Here Comes the Bride” passing a Catholic wedding.
    That kinda thing can actually de-fuse a situation or create an atmosphere.
    Many just prefer to get a little louder when passing a Catholic Church.

  • Hard hat

    Old school – peaceful protesting does not involve 3 days of petrol-bombing, shooting, hi-jacking and generally dragging the community through the mud. I hope the PSNI releases the pictures of the adults who were on the street sending schoolboys out to do their dirty work.
    Mark – thank you for your jest, it has been a while since I laughed for so long. Refreshingly hilarious.
    Looking ahead, I cannot imagine that any responsible person could call hundreds of people back onto the streets given the lack of control that followed the last time he did so. And before you comment on how responsible or otherwise it is to have a parade, the Apprentice Boys (and Orange Order for that matter) both now have a track record demonstrating the ability to conduct their public processions within the law, in an orderly and peaceful manner. Really, what is the point in laying down laws to govern conduct on parades if the organisers comply fully with the requirements of said laws and get re-routed instead by rioters?
    I ain’t a shinner, by the way.

  • old school

    Hard hat. You’re not a Shinner, sure we all believe you, but, you’ll have to distinguish between a sit down protest and a subsequent riot.
    Otherwise you’d have us believe those who were attacked at Burntollet were responsible for the subsequent Battle of the Bogside.
    Put down your tabloid for once and think for yourself.

  • Hard hat

    GLC – if they disrupted me on one day of the year for 3 minutes then traffic flowed as normal, and the alternative was having my car taken, placed across the M1 and set on fire, I would live very comfortably with the 3 minutes.

  • old school

    Don’t assume Ardoyne is the only area with alienated Republican youth by the way. Watch out for Derry in August.
    These things will kick off, regardless of idiots assuming it’s all down to one dude in Ardoyne.

  • Hard hat

    Old school – not only can I think for myself, but I can also respond to your points of view without hurling insults. The fixation on the illegal sit-down protest is yours – my comments relate to the appeal generally attributed to (mad d)og as follows: “G.A.R.C. take this opportunity to call upon all concerned Catholic/Nationalist and Republican people from near and far to come and stand shoulder to shoulder with the beleaguered Ardoyne community for the twelfth of July parade”. Please tell me that you are not suggesting that the person who issued this statement should take no responsibility for what the assembled masses subsequently did??

  • old school

    “I can respond to your points of view without hurling insults”….just one line before calling someone a mad dog.
    Yeah, youre not a shinner…right.

  • USA

    For me the issue is that nearly £3 million was spent on policing parades for June and July (“June to August”). Given that there are approx 3,000 parades from Feb to Nov each year, we could easily assume that the real figure is over £5 million per year.
    Even over a 5 year period that is serious money.
    Al Capone eventually fell over taxes, how does the OO afford this bill? Surely it’s not coming from the public purse.

  • old school

    I hope you are going to take Mick Fealty up on his offer and write a peace on Derry, although the chances are I will disagree with it. You have a story I hope you tell it here.

    I also hope any demonstration in Derry or anywhere else on this island is peaceful.

  • old school

    Sorry I spelled peace! I meant of course piece.

    Freudian slip..

  • damon

    It’s about ”ownership” of that short bit of the road by the roundabout. The Ardoyne Republicans don’t want their Ardoyle Loyalist neighbours to walk past ”their shops” – when it is really the only way because of the geography. They are being told you can’t march past here, you have to sneak past on a bus, or take your chances any times you pass day or night, because that bit outside the shops is Republican, even though Unionists live just yards away in Twaddell Avenue.
    Four out of five local Unionists feel uncomfortable about using the shops at any time, according to the CAIN site.

    The agro is quite unnecessary.

  • wj

    “The Sinn Féin President said:

    ‘The street conflict over the 12th was largely a result of a small number of so-called dissident groups exploiting the tensions and fears surrounding Orange marches. Sinn Féin’s opposition to these groups is unequivocal and a matter of public record.

    However, the fact remains that it is the loyal orders obstinate insistence on marching through Catholic areas and their refusal to talk that is at the heart of the perennial violence that marks the marching season.”

    Perhaps, Gerry Adams will be equally frank and tell us all which organisation exploited ‘ the tensions and fears surrounding Orange marches ‘ to create even more major street conflict during the 1990’s for its own political ends.

    Perhaps, he might also concede that it is not the loyal orders’ refusal to talk that ever was a problem, but the orders’ (erroneous) belief that they enjoy certain rights and priveleges over and beyond those enjoyed by their fellow (Catholic) citizens.

    Revisionism at its best by Adams. Of course, there was no street violence orchestrated by a certain organisation (with which he might be familiar) in the aftermath of marches on the Ormeau Rd or Garvaghy Rd.

    Come to think of it, I must have only imagined the burning of a train in Lurgan in July 1997, amongst other things. I really must have only imagined that train having been burned out because SF’s John O’Dowd clearly doesn’t remember that event either.

    But, of course, those were “different times”.

  • Cynic

    Don’t you realise the implications? The cost now comes from the NI block grant so less money to spend on fripperies like health care, school meals etc.

    If it gets bad enough the Education Minister might not even be able to afford to translate every document in her Department into Irish and Ulster Scots and then where would we be?

  • Cynic

    It’s not ‘unnecessary’ it’s racist

  • Cynic

    Err…. isn’t it a specific legal offence? So the ‘unreformed ‘ police are using the law passed by parliament specifically to deal with this issue to charge these involved. How shocking.

    Do wake up Mark

  • Neil

    I remember clearly the annual parade past cemetary Sunday in Dunloy when I was a kid. In that case the parade was a moveable feast, occurring on the same Sunday that cemetary Sunday occurred every year.

    And the ones in Ballymena that moved their ‘traditional route’ a few streets over, because the majority of (Catholic) houses were being removed to build a bypass/dual carriageway effort. Where did they move to? William Street, the home of damn near every Nationalist/Catholic bar in Ballymena.

    In many cases I’m certain that if there were no Nationalists to annoy, the lodges would cease to exist, as there’s no point if themmuns don’t see it.

  • Neil

    Perhaps, Gerry Adams will be equally frank and tell us all which organisation exploited ‘ the tensions and fears surrounding Orange marches ‘ to create even more major street conflict during the 1990′s for its own political ends.

    Hmm, the bulk of the trouble in the time you mentioned was around, as you rightly mention, the Garvaghy Road. So, I’m struggling to see how this can be laid at SF’s door?

    I remember the time well, and the vast majority of the parade related violence was based around betracksuited, Loyalist smicks dripping with sovereign rings, pissed off their heads and tearing the country apart. And this is Nationalist’s fault obviously.

    Basically it’s the good ole croppy lie down attitude, either we take the shit, or we complain, you wreck the fucking place, then blame us for provoking you.

    Ormeau Road, Joe Bratty walks into the bookies and kills 5 local Catholics in a nakedly sectarian murder. Each year the order marches past the lower Ormeau. Again, the night previous to the march the area is swamped with landrovers, the residents are locked into their homes again. Each year the marchers hold up five fingers to the local Nationalists, signifying the 5 men murdered by the UFF.

    Interestingly the character who murdered the five people was honored annually by the Orange community for his heroic act of mudering five unarmed punters in a bookies for nothing more than their religion, carrying a banner celebrating the ‘hero’ at ‘orangefest’.

    Course them fenians had no right to complain. It’s croppie lie down, take our shit or we’ll wreck the place and blame you for provoking us, like an abusive husband, when he hits his wife it’s the wife’s fault for spilling his drink.

    http://sluggerotoole.com/2007/07/16/banner-dedicated-to-ormeau-road-bookmakers-killer-carried-at-belfast-orange/

  • Hard hat – this is the official website for the Pride of Ardoyne – http://pic3.piczo.com/prideofardoynefluteband/ – I’d suggest you have a look. While it isn’t adorned with the ‘Fuck Talk, We Walk’ logo of their Bebo page, it does fail to list any hymns among their band songs, although ‘taigs’ does crop up in the odd lyric. Perhaps that is why they didn’t actually play any hymns – they don’t know any.
    Similarly, if you can see past the UVF members commemorated on the official Pride of Ardoyne banner, you will usefully note that in ‘About the Band’ they state they practice on Mondays and proudly walk past the Ardoyne Shops every year. That seems to be about it.
    That’s their official website by the way. Hardly a paragon of cross community virtue. Did you notice if they carried the banners with UVF regalia etc on the 12th July? I think a peaceful protest by the residents (as opposed to the stupid nonsense the so-called dissidents fomented) is permissible if this website is any way reflective of the type of bands that want to march.

  • Brasco

    Firstly the smear on GARC and Martin Meehan is typical of SF….they have lost control and support in the Ardoyne and have only themselves to blame.

    Busing in £50 a day stewards from the West to tell local residents where they can and cannot protest is an insult.

    Agree or disagree with Meehan but it looks he and GARC now have the support of the Ardoyne community to the dismay of both SF and the Loyal orders…

    Some (in the Ardoyne) have said that SF and the Loyal orders are only worried about the block grants the Government pays into their coffers…

    According to the graffiti now appearing on walls across Belfast. SF now stands for Sticky F**kers…!!!!!

  • HeinzGuderian

    I’m away for a pint !!!

  • Brasco – in your dreams – the protest against the riots brought out a lot more people than the riots itself – and (unlike the rioters) they didn’t have to come from outside Ardoyne. Don’t mistake the broader anti-SF sentiment thats being talked up among the usual suspects as support for the dissidents.
    If GARC or anyone else want to effectively tackle the Loyal Orders and the games that are played over marches, they would apply for the protest and highlight the specifics. Not recognising the courts etc has been a dead game for a long time. There is a lot of attention on who is objecting to the parades etc while the defence of the Loyal Orders is being done at a very general ‘marching season’ level. I posted a link to the Pride of Ardoyne band’s official website above. Not seeking permission for the protest is playing into the hands of those who want to demonise the residents of areas like Ardoyne who don’t want bands with UVF emblems etc deliberately wanting to parade in an interface area (where they know their presence is provocative). The only way to do that is to closely document what they are doing and highlight their websites (see my earlier reply to Hard hat) and literature to show the real sectarianism in the attitudes of the likes of these bands. If the likes of the Loyal Orders want to pretend that somehow they are not tainted by this – you know, it’s the bands, not us – that won’t be good enough either. But as it, this year, it’s all about riots and fake tans. I am sure the kids rioting love seeing themselves on tv and the Loyal Orders and bands must love watching them.

  • stewart1

    Will the family of UVF sectarian murder victim Paddy McKenna have the plesure of seeing the UVF Brian Robinson flute band lead the Apprentice boys past their home again this year ?

  • stewart1

    ‘have the pleasure’

  • Neil

    Fourth attempt:

    Perhaps, Gerry Adams will be equally frank and tell us all which organisation exploited ‘ the tensions and fears surrounding Orange marches ‘ to create even more major street conflict during the 1990′s for its own political ends.

    Croppie lie down wha? Basically that’s what it boils down to. You mention Garvaghy Road, as memory serves the majority of trouble was caused by tracksuit bedecked Loyalist smicks, upset at having been told for the first time – you’re not getting your way.

    So in essence what you’re saying is: the OO can do what they like, and if the croppies complain we’ll wreck the joint, and it’ll be your fault croppie, cause you provoked us. Like an abusive husband, he hit’s his missus then tells her it’s her fault for burning the dinner.

    So, either croppie lie down, or croppie we’ll wreck the place and blame you.

    Ormeau Road you mention also. Each year the day before the parade would pass the police land rovers would arrive en masse, hemming the locals inside their houses as prisoners until the following day the parade would pass. In 1992 two men walked into Sean Grahams on the Ormeau Road and murdered 5 punters for the simple reason they were catholic. No political motivation whatsoever. Joe Bratty was one of the gunman.

    Each year the parade would pass the bookies and the marchers would hold out five fingers at the locals, signifying the five men, one of them a twin, that was murdered for purely base sectarian reasons. And when the locals eventually kick off, well it must be Gerry Adams winding everyone up right? I mean them croppies were happy enough for us to have them locked in their homes for a couple of days every year, and they were happy enough at us waving our five fingers at them in triumph at the murder of innocent gamblers, it was only when Gerry started winding them up that they started getting uppity, right?

    Or maybe the Order wound them up, and maybe the order are responsible for some of their own violence do you think?

    Incidentally, the sectarian murderer, Bratty, was honored annually by the orange marchers in Belfast for his heroic slaughter of innocent, unarmed people.

    http://sluggerotoole.com/2007/07/16/banner-dedicated-to-ormeau-road-bookmakers-killer-carried-at-belfast-orange/

  • Neil
  • Cynic

    Probably …just as the entire Unionist population and many Nationalists who suffered at the hands of PIRA have to cope with seeing murderers and their leaders in Stormont.

  • Cynic

    The allies may invade in your absence!

  • Cynic

    Brasco

    That post is so 1970’s.

    I also assume from your chosen name that you are a would be tout?

  • stewart1

    I think they might just play it safe and ask the Pride Of Ardoyne flute band to accompany them, although…they also remember UVF terrorists on their band banner.

    It must be difficult deciding how to cause the maximum offence when you are organising a parade, and it must be a real dilemna for the dozen members of the club.

    What about the Shankill Protestan Boys? Didn’t they take part in the 12th of July parade past Ardoyne?

  • iluvni

    Meehan has been charged with an offence and whilst awaiting trial is threatening to commit a similar offence, on August14?
    Is that right?

    Lock him up now.

  • Martin Og Meehan “….our collective reiterates our respect for the Protestant religion, heritage and culture…We support the right of all groups to parade in a peaceful manner. However, they must adhere to the rights of others and march only where they are welcome.”

    This ‘negative’ interpretation of human rights legislation, indeed the true spirit of ‘human rights’ theory, by parade protestors is given far too much credence.

    The fundamental tenants of human rights are freedom of movement and expression. Anti-parade demonstrators once and for all need to be shown for what they are, bigots and racists attempting to enforce social apartheid.

    The story of Rosa Parks comes to mind. This anti-procession element of Irish Nationalism is no different from the regime Rosa was up against. Like Rosa, us ‘prods’ are acceptable as long as we keep to our own place on the bus.

    Exclusion because of religious/ ethnic/ cultural/ racial identity is discrimination and a human rights abuse. GARC and their ilk’s re-writing of the whole core concept of human rights is ridiculous. What is more ridiculous however is the fact so many people listen and accept the position despite even the most superficial study showing its foundation in terms of human rights to be a sham.

  • Quincey – fancy doing a review of the Pride of Ardoyne website for us (linked earlier)? Particularly the Band Songs and UVF stuff.

  • Neil

    Perhaps, Gerry Adams will be equally frank and tell us all which organisation exploited ‘ the tensions and fears surrounding Orange marches ‘ to create even more major street conflict during the 1990′s for its own political ends.

    Croppie lie down wha? Basically that’s what it boils down to. You mention Garvaghy Road, as memory serves the majority of trouble was caused by tracksuit bedecked Loyalist smicks, upset at having been told for the first time – you’re not getting your way.

    So in essence what you’re saying is: the OO can do what they like, and if the croppies complain we’ll wreck the joint, and it’ll be your fault croppie, cause you provoked us. Like an abusive husband, he hit’s his missus then tells her it’s her fault for burning the dinner.

    So, either croppie lie down, or croppie we’ll wreck the place and blame you.

    Ormeau Road you mention also. Each year the day before the parade would pass the police land rovers would arrive en masse, hemming the locals inside their houses as prisoners until the following day the parade would pass. In 1992 two men walked into Sean Grahams on the Ormeau Road and murdered 5 punters for the simple reason they were catholic. No political motivation whatsoever. Joe Bratty was one of the gunman.

    Each year the parade would pass the bookies and the marchers would hold out five fingers at the locals, signifying the five men, one of them a twin, that was murdered for purely base sectarian reasons. And when the locals eventually kick off, well it must be Gerry Adams winding everyone up right? I mean them croppies were happy enough for us to have them locked in their homes for a couple of days every year, and they were happy enough at us waving our five fingers at them in triumph at the murder of innocent gamblers, it was only when Gerry started winding them up that they started getting uppity, right?

    Or maybe the Order wound them up, and maybe the order are responsible for some of their own violence do you think?

    Incidentally, the sectarian murderer, Bratty, was honored annually by the orange marchers in Belfast for his heroic slaughter of innocent, unarmed people.

    http://sluggerotoole.com/2007/07/16/banner-dedicated-to-ormeau-road-bookmakers-killer-carried-at-belfast-orange/

  • Cynic

    A Classl 1 idiot. This is the finest Ardoyne can produce? And the Prods worry about the dissidents?

    Why don’t the OO play clever and get an injunction against him and his mob preventing them holding an illegal protest or breaching their human rights. they could even get legal aid for the application

  • Brasco

    “a would be tout”….its shocking the levels this forum has fallen to, when innuendo and abuse passes as a manner of political debate.

  • stewart1

    But John they are picked purely for their Musical ability, the terrorist glorification is a side issue !

    The BNP have applied to hold a march past the home of Stephen Lawrence, in protest at the possible retrial of those suspected of murdering the teenager.

    I wonder would the English public agree with this?

    The radical islamic grouping Islam4uk have again applied to march through Wootton Bassett with banners and placards glorifying the murder of British soldiers in Afghanistan.

    Or this?

  • Hard hat

    Upon what should we base our assessments – comments of unknown individuals on a website, or their conduct whilst on public parade?

  • Hard hat

    As a matter of interest, do you think Sean Kelly’s front line presence at both Ardoyne and Springfield Road protests on July 12 therefore reflected on all of those on whose behalf he was protesting?

  • Reader

    John Ó Néill: Did you notice if they carried the banners with UVF regalia etc on the 12th July?
    The good news – for you – is that, if they did, then they are absolutely wrecked for next year – this is from the Parades Commission for this march:
    “G. The Commission re-affirms that supporters of the parade must not display flags or emblems on the portion of the notified route on between the junction of Woodvale Road and Woodvale Parade, and the junction of Crumlin Road and Hesketh Road.”
    The bad news – for you – is that no one has claimed they displayed any such banners on that stretch of the route, in spite of your repeated prompts, so it looks like they are all clear to do the same route next year. This year they have apparently only committed thought crimes, and the Parades Commission doesn’t adjudicate on those.

  • Hard hat

    “Agree or disagree with Meehan but it looks he and GARC now have the support of the Ardoyne community to the dismay of both SF and the Loyal orders…” Surely you have to admit that the 5 members of the Ardoyne community who showed up in support on 10 July would have been a bit isolated without the Ardoyne and Divis hoods, dissidents from Lurgan, Derry, and foreign nationals who were “encouraged” to be there on the 12th and who were handed posters but had no idea what they were supporting?

  • Reader

    Oops. I should have quoted this bit from the Parades commission instead: “and flags, bannerettes and symbols relating to a proscribed organisation should in no circumstances be displayed.”

  • Hard hat

    John Ó Néill: Decided to take you up on your offer my friend and went to the Pride of Ardoyne “official” website as you painstakingly describe it. Also did a bit of other research. According to CAIN, of those listed on the band’s current banner, McClure was a non-paramilitary band member, murdered by the IPLO in 1990 (you may owe his family an apology). William Hanna was a passer-by at Ballysillan Post Office during an attempted IRA bomb attack which the British Army foiled – but was caught in crossfire and was shot dead by the Army. He was a UVF member. Samuel Rockett was a UVF member shot dead by the UFF in 2000.

    Another incongruity about assuming that everyone in their band is associated in some way with the paramilitary UVF is that the band is drawn from a part of Ardoyne generally dominated by UDA influences. According to records, the colours carried by the band all relate to the historical UVF of 1912 otherwise they would not be permitted by law. I am not suggesting that one should conclude that the band members are in the UDA instead of the UVF by the way. I understand that “non paramilitary loyalists” do actually exist.

    Their own photo page has no paramilitarism, but there is a separate “UVF/YCV” page with clearly paramilitary events of which one appears to show the band in the background.

    I searched probably as hard as you had to, to find the one song in the entire website (“the Bouncey”) with “taig” in the lyric.

    “Perhaps that is why they didn’t actually play any hymns – they don’t know any.” That’s a quality argument. Have you ever thought of becoming involved in conciliation work?

    Ironically given your comment re “paqragon of cross-community virtue”, I understand that the band does actually include members who have been leading cross-community efforts with counterparts in Republican parts of Ardoyne. Perhaps you have met them?

    And there we have it some facts to ponder. I hope they don’t get in the way of your opinions.

    Having had to adopt the “really, I’m not a shinner” line, I am now anticpating having to think of a similar “honestly, I’m not a UVFer line”.

  • Hard hat

    Took a moment to glance through my pics of 12th and looks like the breaches of Parades Commission determinations relate to protesters. In the morning, this means those who walked alongside the parade lead by some hooded mastermind carrying the Irish Tricolour. Two of the aforementioned crowd are from Ardoyne; who the rest were is anybody’s guess. Parades Commission determination requires protesters to remain static until the parade has left Crumlin Road. No need to comment further on the events of the evening.

  • Comrade Stalin

    According to records, the colours carried by the band all relate to the historical UVF of 1912 otherwise they would not be permitted by law.

    I keep hearing this and it sounds like a load of bullshit.

    Don’t try to tell me that the UVF flags currently flying in the usual strongholds are nothing to do with the modern-day organization.

  • wee buns

    Aye those UVF flags are pure hystorical (stifled laff)

  • Hard hat – think you need to go to specsavers. The banner on the front page of their website has only two names – Sam Rockett and John Hanna, both UVF men (there is only one John Hanna listed by Sutton). The banner is there twice, just in case. If there is a new one, fine, but it’s not on their website (which is what I was clearly referring to in the post) so cut the dramatics.
    You didn’t feel it worth commenting on the other image beside that that said UVF, D C’oy, 1912-2003 – the ‘2003’ part kind of knocks your argument about historical UVF on the head. Similarly (as you mention) there is a link to a page of photographs of UVF men from the 1990s or so, as well. I’d only looked at the ‘Band Songs’ link to see if there were any hymns on it – the word taig did catch my eye as I said, since the use of the word is generally considered to be sectarian, I thought it was worth noting. Lastly, the website says it is their own website, I make that point as presumably they stand by it.
    I didn’t make any reference to anyone in the band being associated with the UVF – I described the contents of the bands website which clearly gives prominence to the UVF in various places, not the historical entity of 1912, the modern incarnation.

    So don’t go preaching about facts and research – next time do your own and do it properly.

  • I didn’t suggest that they had – I only asked if they had. Biggest joke of all is that they could have carried billboards of the original wonderbra ad around and most of the protesters probably wouldn’t have noticed since they were too busy trying to get stuck into the cops at the time.

  • I took more than a moment to watch the following video of how Orange Order members and supporters breached a multitude of rules laid down in the P/C determination by being so triumphalist in their welcome for those bigots who marched through Ardoyne on the Twelfth!

    Maybe those apoligists for Unionist facism within the Protestant and Unionist community, should end the pretense that these parades are not coat-trailing exercises?

  • Whether U like it or not;

    The vast majority of protesters who sat on the Crumlin Road on the Twelfth were Greater Ardoyne residents!

    I can also assure you that everyone who held GARC posters were well aware what they supported, peaceful and dignified opposition to Orange triumphalism being forced through their community!

  • John, none of those who blocked the road on the Twelfth engaged in any riots whatsoever…..

    GARC has strongly dissassociated itself from the inevitable response to RUC/PSNI manhandling protesters.

    The protest and the ensuing riot were totally different incidents. As a matter of fact, GARC is on public record asking for a peaceful and dignified protest and also asked for the youth to refrain from any acts of violence! FACT!

  • John East Belfast

    “Meehan said if the “socially detached and discredited Parades Commission” allow the Apprentice Boys to march past Ardoyne then…”

    The key word is PAST Ardoyne not THROUGH it.

    These people are just trouble makers and should be shunned by the Ardoyne nationalist community

  • Hard hat

    Don’t think anyone did try, did they?

  • Hard hat

    Calm down!! Hard to take criticism for commenting on the banner the band actually carries, rather than something out of date on a website on which you chose to comment. Reporting from the ground and gathering one’s own evidence is great for informed comment, don’t you think? From the strength of your comments I thought you might have been closer to the ground yourself but if you have to go to a website to search for things you find offensive, then I guess I was wrong. Interesting to see ArdEoin Republican has now joined us; if we are lucky enough, he may be in a position to give us (very) first hand analysis of Mairtin’s strategy.

  • Hard hat

    ArdEoin Republican: “I took more than a moment to watch the following video of how Orange Order members and supporters breached a multitude of rules laid down in the P/C determination by being so triumphalist in their welcome for those bigots who marched through Ardoyne on the Twelfth!” The video is at Hesketh in the loyalist part of Ardoyne, 1/4 of a mile AFTER the parade has been through a 100 yard tunnel of raining bricks and petrol bombs. But I guess the rioters, sorry – misrepresented protesters, got offended about that 2 hours before it actually happened. Go on, give us some footage of disgraceful behaviour actually at the mountainview part. To be fair to you, I guess some of the Orangemen did dodge the bricks in a particularly sectarian and provocative way.

  • Mairtin, surely if GARC are dedicated to peaceful protest as you say, they might want to rethink a poster that asserts: “No parade, no violence”

    If you are intent on another protest and are intent that it remain peaceful, surely you will take responsibility for stewarding the crowds of children who congregate afterwards to riot and steal/burn out resident’s cars.

    If GARC are representative of Ardoyne’s residents, this shouldn’t be a problem.

  • Hard Hat: Here is the part of the determination relating to the Twelfth Parade THROUGH Ardoyne:

    As U can clearly see it states that the Lodges, bands and supporters MUST BEHAVE with due regard for the rights, traditions and feelings of others in the vicinity; refrain from using words or behaviour which could reasonably be perceived as intentionally sectarian, provocative, threatening, abusive, insulting or lewd; obey the lawful directions of parade organisers and stewards at all times, from assembly to dispersal; abide by the conditions of the Code of Conduct; and comply with police directions and in accordance with legislation……on the portion of the notified route on between the junction of Woodvale Road and Woodvale Parade, and the junction of Crumlin Road and Hesketh Road.

    http://www.paradescommission.org/parades/?parade=31414

    METHINKS that these rules have been well breached if one wants to watch the video….After all, greater Ardoyne residents also live on that portion of the Crumlin Road, Ingledale, Somerdale and Abbeydale areas….In other words it is a community.

    BTW, Hesketh is part of the Glenbryn NOT Ardoyne community chara.

  • Donncha Mac Niallais

    To set the record straight, Gerry Adams was not involved in a sit-down protest on Lower Ormeau in 1997, there was no sit-down protest that year. In 1996, following the march forced through Garvaghy Road, the Ormeau Road was subject to a curfew and Gerry tried to get through to the area but was prevented by the RUC. There was no sit-down protest on Derry’s Walls in 1997. In 1995, there was a protest and no-one was charged in relation to that. Old School, whoever s/he is, should get their facts right.

  • Hard hat

    Mairtin, Abbeydale is 1/2 a mile outside Hesketh but you class it as part of Ardoyne but not Hesketh. At that rate, perhaps Glengormley could somehow be taken into account to bolster your position. As Glenbryn is and always was classed as Ardoyne, thank you for reinforcing my point re Hesketh, chara. It is fact that GARC does not represent all of the Nationalist community nor any of the Unionist community in Abbeydale who have expressed resentment at being hijacked for GARC’s antics. I guess your geography is as selective as your independent surveys. In small steps, the parades issue in this area was becoming more manageable year by year, but GARC has managed to reignite all the old hostilities and set things back 10 years – well done.

  • Hard hat

    Mairtin Og: “BTW, Hesketh is part of the Glenbryn NOT Ardoyne community chara.” Why then have you posted your video of the parade at Hesketh (your link above) with the title “Triumphalist Parade in Ardoyne”? I’m sure if the parade had behaved this way at the shopfronts you would have posted a video of that. Fact is that the parade’s behaviour at the shopfronts was restrained despite the protesters’ shower of bricks and petrol bombs and the casualties they took.

    Secondly, I understood that your group does not recognise the parades commission and will not be submitting applications for your “protests”. Yet you rely on the parades commission determination for the parade in your attempts to justify the riots. Which is it……do recognise the parades commission or not?

    As for hemming-in the community, the usual 15 – 30 minutes turned into 11 and a half hours thanks to GARC.

    This argument about who represents who is pointless – if you actually believed your own claims you would have put your hat in the ring at the last election and let the community confirm your assertions. Perhaps next time?

    As for the “everyone who held GARC posters knew what they were supporting”. Em, not according to those I spoke to who split as soon as they realised what was coming next. The manipulation of one particular group of foreign nationals could have put their fellow countrymen in other parts of Belfast at great risk.

  • Hard hat

    See http://www.passedaway.com/notice/billy_kane/2806/

    The funeral was 9am. The end of the parade passed at 8.40am. Estoril is 150 yards from Holy Cross Church.

  • lamhdearg

    ArdEoin Republican could you put your view of what “greater ardoyne” is ie it’s borders.

  • I’m from North Belfast, but I’m not from Ardoyne (no matter how great anyone wants to make it). Nice to see you still managed to avoid admitting there could be any issues around PoA and the UVF stuff on that website, though. Hard to stomach, eh?

  • Hard hat

    John, “hard to stomach?” Please clarify and I’ll gladly comment when I understand your point. With regard to the website stuff, I draw attention to the paramilitary stuff in my own post and yes I find it distasteful no matter how old it is, but I would expect to be laughed out of court if I suggested that judgement on a band should be based on aged website content (bearing in mind that the banner to which you referred was out of date) rather than the band’s conduct on public parade. The laws governing public processions are quite robust; are you seriously suggesting that even if a band satisfies all of the legal requirements, the courts should go raking through the internet to see if they can find some other way of placating the rioters (sorry again, misrepresented-protesting-residents-not-dissidents)? There are many “ex-combatants” out there doing vital work to consolidate and build on the fragile peace and they have the courage to take their former counterparts at face value, regardless of their past rather than spending time on the internet looking for dirt to be raked up. It would be progress if the flame-fanners on these parade and protest disputes could do the same.

  • Sorry, but you did try and claim that their interest was the ‘historical’ UVF of 1912 – which is clearly nonsense. Look, PoA is a complete side issue (really). I agree – people formerly involved in the conflict (as active participants) have a bigger part than most to play in trying to defuse tensions. But there is a huge reluctance on the part of those involved in a lot of Loyal Order marches to make even a partial admission about what catholics/nationalists/etc might find objectionable. As far as I could see, you’re not doing any different, whether you mean to or not.

  • Hard hat

    John: you accuse me in error my friend. You will find that I actually pointed out that the colours the band carries in public relate to the 1912 UVF which is why the law is powerless to intervene. I at no stage suggested that the other guff on their website was in any way innocent. Your point about “huge reluctance on the part of those involved in a lot of Loyal Order marches to make even a partial admission about what catholics/nationalists/etc might find objectionable” is simply inaccurate. The two sides in this dispute were worlds apart, but each has genuinely tried to deal with the very obstacles and causes of grievance to which you refer without losing the confidence of its respective community. Dissident influences in and beyond Ardoyne have wrecklessly taken advantage of this to undermine and seriously threaten that progress.

  • I didn’t accuse you in error – and this is the core of the problem (and one the ‘dissidents’ are pretty cack-handedly trying, and hopefully failing completely, to exploit). At heart, you and I know both know that the likes of ‘1912 UVF’ uniforms aren’t some winsome historical re-enactment that has no reference to recent history. Technically, or ‘legally’, maybe it covers the bases – but everyone looking at it (like you and me) knows how they are supposed to read it. And everyone still can’t admit that publicly because no-one knows how to square that away yet.

  • Hard hat

    John, we could flog this to death but all I can do is tell you that it was not difficult to establish that Pride of Ardoyne is not considered to be representative of the paramilitary UVF. It does not deny its history, and I agree that makes it easy for people to jump to the wrong conclusions. Let’s not kid ourselves that the petrol-bombers will need any rationale to take to the streets on 14 Aug. Any excuse will do and anyone calling for massed protests cannot wash their hands of what ensues.

  • Hard hat

    Pitiful attempt to sway the opinions of those who don’t know the geography of the area. See later posts. To those who do know the geography, your post is actually quite amusing and exposes your desperation to find some way no matter how contrived, of attracting support.

  • John, you have to try and remember that essentially the massive Northern Ireland band scene (over 600 bands- there are twice as many bands in Northern Ireland than GAA clubs!) is a youth movement. Combined with the youth of today being incredibly internet literate, its not surprising that some of the internet offerings take on the characteristics of every youth movement in the world – i.e. reflecting many of the extreme views in society in general, and without doubt heavily influenced by strong feelings of anger and resentment. The word ‘official’ on a website by no means denotes a site is officially prepared or endorsed- and that doesn’t go just for bands, it can be applied to any group/ body. Bands are autonomous and voluntary groups, so I think they can be forgiven for not monitoring every internet offering. Ill send you a direct mail when I get more information about the site.

  • Hard hat

    Apparently not.

  • A N Other

    The answer to these marches is simple. Martin Og and his followers should all put on the following costumes, and stand quietly at the side of the road;

    http://url.ie/7521

  • lamhdearg

    Or lie in to 11 oclock like they do on most days.