Ardoyne violence: Some of those kids have real potential

A lot has been written on the claimed apolitical nature of rioting in Ardoyne and allegations many/most of those involved were motivated by thuggery, anti-social behaviour and sectarianism.

Like a lot of those commenting, I wasn’t there and am in no position to fully judge who was doing what, why or through whatever motivation.

However, as former IRA members joined the queues to lambast the young people at the forefront of the violence I picked up ‘Voices from the Grave’ and reread pages 19 & 20.

Over a few brief lines Brendan Hughes describes a journey from raw sectarian anger in 1969;

People’s blood was up; they were angry and it was decided that Protestant homes should be attacked. Around a hundred to a hundred and fifty men were heading towards Malt Street…

That quickly lead to him and a small group of others involved in riots being head-hunted to join the IRA;

…by this stage I had a bit of a reputation of being a hard nut; I was able to fight…..and I was then approached by [an IRA member]..

…I think there was twelve of us at the time

From then on the book detailed a life dedicated to increasing involvement in the IRA and politicisation. A large group of people initially involved in outpourings of sectarian anger were whittled down to a core from which a small number of IRA volunteers emerged (with at least one having a long lasting and highly effective commitment to military action he passed on to others).

As we look at the youth and numbers involved in the Ardoyne riots it is worth considering Hughes IRA path started from a similar situation with similar numbers. It resulted in him and that handful of others being recruited to the IRA and embarking on an increasingly dedicated and violent path with all that later entailed.

Of course the conditions in the north are nowhere near as conflicted as those in 1969 and the potential to recruit from conflicts with the state/Unionism are limited in frequencey and geographical spread but history points towards such opportunities, when they occur, being fully utilised by armed force republicanism. With every recruit comes the option to extend, expand and fuel a campaign. Riot situations can and will be used to identify those that will go that bit further, take the risks and put their and others lives beneath the needs of a ’cause’.

Many across the media and constitutional life in the north seek to address what happened in Ardoyne, Lurgan and elsewhere as purely criminal problems demanding a policing/judicial response but maybe a glance at the books on shelves might indicate something more is needed.

For constitutional republicanism (or nationalism) and non-armed struggle republicanism surely it demands a focus on interacting with and guiding these young people willing to fight before others test if they are open to direction into armed struggle? If they are open to radicalisation and politicisation mustn’t that be pursued before those with guns?

Unless, along with abandoning those who may riot for recreational reasons those with a possibility of being politicised are left solely to the influences of the recruiting sergeants in armed organisations?

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  • Alan Maskey

    Reallly. The chances of one of these salmon spawns making it up river to become another major headache for the Royal Ulster Provos is remote. Many will be diverted by criminal opportuniries, a bit of skirt (the straight guys, if there are any) and the opportunity to play video games.

    Slighlty off topic but I was recently in the Muslim areas of Mindanao (where foreigners regularly get kidnapped and decapitated). Goin into a slum area, kids skutted on the back of our motor taxi. I have not seen kids do that in a very long time. The point: the novelty soon wears off. That said, Catney’s mates looked pretty fit, much fitter and GAA looking than the GAA jacket wearing Storey who, I imagine, has plenty of well honed thugs on call.
    The Ardoyne wil rrmain firmly in Provies’ hands for a very long time. Bugsy/Brednan Malones in the making won’t change that.

  • K84

    I am interested in what you wrote, and would love to see what more may have been included, had you been there.
    Perhaps if the courts dealt with these criminals more aptly, this situation would not arise?

  • joeCanuck

    OK. Here’s what I suggest. Once they are arrested and tried, if convicted, they be sent to either jail or Reform School as appropriate and have to attend lectures by former volunteer provos as to the futility of try to force their neighbours to do a reverse “croppy lie down” and become good Irishmen and Women.

  • There is little doubt you are right, some of the youngsters on the streets of Ardoyne could well develop into something much more sinister. Perhaps it would be a good idea to spend some time seriously studying the life and times of Brendan Hughes. Paying particular attention to the last years of bitterness, regret, isolation from his ‘comrades’ and ill health.

    Violence has never worked. It never will. I have a lot of respect for Brendan Hughes, but if he learned that lesson, he learned it too late, and for him any lesson was full of bitterness and betrayal. Who would wish that on the young of today?

  • Alan Maskey

    Brendan Hughes, Ivor Bell, Stakeknife. Who did they all work closely with?
    There is, as martin McGuinness would say, a situation in the Occupied Zone. That situation will always bring forth resisters. Certainly, many of them came from Ardoyne in the past. Remove the Orange Order and the Orange State and the problem will literally go away.
    Even if some of the kids the poster refers to had potential as operators, they do not have the logistics. Ask Micky McKevitt about the importance of this. Of course, The Jackal and King Rat had their own supply chain well in place, thanks to HRHQE2.

  • Mark McGregor

    Alan,

    ‘Reallly. The chances of one of these salmon spawns making it up river to become another major headache for the Royal Ulster Provos is remote. Many will be diverted by criminal opportuniries, a bit of skirt (the straight guys, if there are any) and the opportunity to play video games.’

    From Brendan’s account a group 150 involved in the initial attempt to attack Malt St resulted in 5 people eventually joining the IRA. If the current armed groups pick up similar numbers from the edges of riots it is allowing armed republicanism to grow without contest.

    People may dismiss those rioting as wee scrotes but thats were recruiting will take place and unless others seek to appeal to those potential recruits more it is being left as an open field for those dedicated to armed struggle.

    Harsh words, disgust and a judicial response won’t stop a single recruit to the gun – that needs something else.

  • Perhaps it is the influence of those who can’t let go of the old ways because that would make them examine who they really are now; or perhaps it is that despite being told that the war is over nobody checked out with the young people involved why they want to riot. Or perhaps it’s just really good fun. Whatever it is it is brutalising our young people and they deserve more.

  • joeCanuck

    Remove the Orange Order and the Orange State and the problem will literally go away.

    How could we have been so stupid not to realize how simple it could be.
    REMOVE
    Do give us some more of your wisdom. How exactly shall we do the removing?

  • DC

    Mark

    The difference today is around 30 years of violent history (just recently ended) and the so-called scars on our backs because of it – all are still around – to be seen as to the pointlessness of much of it. Therefore, trying to replicate such street politics should be seen as utterly futile, foolish and a waste of time and energy as it has currently brought us all as far as it can go.

    I can see how by having the authority of the Parades Commission locked away and it directing the power of the police on street will frustrate enough people to provoke a strong enough protest on the day, at the time of the march, but should it really merit days after days of protesting and rioting???

  • Mark McGregor

    DC,

    I wasn’t adressing that. I’m pointing out who will seek to benefit from the outcome if that ground is left uncontested.

    Press releases and outraged statements won’t prevent a single recruit being made to physical force republicanism.

    Its up to others if the want to go in and fight for the few hearts and minds that could be influenced to go down that futile road at present.

  • TheHorse

    The majority of young people Catholic and Protestant dont give a fk about politics they just want to have a good time, if you have a job or well off parents, – dont give me that crap about going to the park or playing a game of football. Those kids who rioted are/were the social underclass of our areas already viewed by Sinn Fein and the PSNI as antisocial, why is that, because Sinn Fein tells them so, Most of them I’d say has been moved along more than a few times by members of various residents associations or the PSNI, Im sure they would like to not give a fuck and have a good time,too but their the ones constantly reminded of the past. Physical force or the threat of it, breeds consent this is the fruits of it.

  • Alan Maskey

    JoeCanuck: I am glad you agree that the root of the problem is Orangeism. Now that the problem has been identified, it then becomes a question of removing it. Both slow track and fast track have their advocates. Catney believes in peaceful protest, as can be seen by the video. Others beleive in giving them a bloody nose.

    Mark, as DC correctly points out, Darkie Hughes joined up at a point in time. That time is now gone. Hughes admitted as much himself.
    The RSF/ CIRA lot would point to the lead up to 1916: the 1798 commemmoration with Tom Mad Dog Clarke, for example, played a key role. Their paper continually rakes the historical ashes, wanting to believe Vinegar Hill Mark 2 is just around the corner. I cannot see traction building. Whatever about another Bloody Sunday, Protestants are not going to burn down St Matthew’s Church again. Nor will unkempt savages torch Bombay St. The dogs of South Armagh will sleep for some time to come. Big Brother (hope the one legged Brit gets knocked out – not rerally, I don’t care), Amy Whitehouse and Gerry Adams’ love in with God will rule. The drug trade will flourish, PIRA will continue to tout and Gerry will continue to spout.

    The descent/ascent into anarchy/the armed struggle was more pronounced then. To one innocent Catholic being murdered in Armagh to “countless” bombings and shootings a day, all in the space of three years. Things are quieter now. And so is Paisley.

  • Mark McGregor

    Alan,

    Yes, Hughes reflected on a lot of things after much retrospect and education. However, as I note above he was recruited from a gang that were engaged in pure sectarianism. He was selected because of his willingness to fight and then ‘up-skilled’.

    Some will be head-hunting similar angry but able young men. Others have the choice of abandoning them all or trying to direct that anger into other channels.

  • While I don’t agree with the rioting last week in Ardoyne. I believe most of it was caused by a number of issues;

    The crazy decison of the Parades Commission to allow a march past Ardoyne in the evening?

    The hostility displayed by thousands of heavily-armed and riot-clad PSNI men hemming locals in.

    As well as, the growing dissaffection of the youth in Ardoyne because 16 yrs after an IRA Ceasefire..the area still hasn’t experienced any substantial peace dividend.

    If U mix those elements together alongside a growing anti-social element then violence last Monday was inevitable!

    The great & the good and political elite can blame dissidents all they want but the stark reality are the real issues facing Ardoyne.

    There is also the added problem of watching local residents being forcibly removed from the parade route to facilitate a secterian organisation march. An organisation that is viewed with deep suspicion and myth due to its legacy of hatred against Catholics.

    In my humble opinion, I’d ask the OO, residents and Clergy from both sides of the community to sit round a table and resolve their issues before another generation is lost!

  • fitzjameshorse1745

    “Not being there” has rarely stopped MMG from having an opinion.
    But the comparison with 1969 seems like clutching at straws.
    If Hughes was “head hunted” by the IRA as a sectarian hard nut, it would certainly re-write the IRAs self image as being above all that….which of course many republican and dissident republicans believe.
    Can the mindless “apolitical” (ie recreational rioting …thuggery, sectarian, and anti social) rioting of these teens be diverted.,……the thugs “head hunted” by who exactly……(dissident republicans????) into an “army”.

    I doubt it. By MMGs own analysis (sourcing Hughes) these 1969 thugs were “head hunted” by IRA.
    But the recent Ardoyne evidence suggests the “apolitical” rioters were in fact the victims of the “dissidents”.
    Neat way to turn History on its head.
    “Voices from the Grave” is the gift which keeps on giving……to dissident republicans and anti-republicans alike.

  • joeCanuck

    violence last Monday was inevitable

    ArdEoin R,
    I can’t agree about inevitability. There are always options.

    local residents being forcibly removed from the parade route

    Are you saying that the reports that the people who sat and blocked the route were outsiders, not all locals, are untrue?

  • ArdEion Republican

    There was at least one member of rent a mob on that sit down protest. I and everyone else, saw him.

    The sit down protest would have been very successful, were it not for the self destructive violence later that evening. Instead of manhandled and battered republicans, all anyone saw were police being pelted and one in particular being badly hurt.

    If that riot was ‘organised’ whoever did it has mash for brains.

  • joeCanuck

    ArdEoin,

    In my humble opinion, I’d ask the OO, residents and Clergy from both sides of the community to sit round a table and resolve their issues before another generation is lost!

    That’s exactly what needs to be done, in all of the places where marches are contentious. I think the OO are being intransigent but will be forced to talk by whatever new process is put in place otherwise they will lose, badly.

  • Mark McGregor

    Pip,

    If you and ‘everyone’ else saw him, spit it out instead of beating round the bushes for a load of posts so ‘everyone’ can work out if what you are saying has anything to do with this entry or is just deflection.

    Cheers.

    I’m assuming you have the balls to stand over what you are claiming but not actually saying.

  • anne warren

    Posters might like to have a look at this article and comments dated 15th July from the Economist .It features Moochin Photoman’s pictures!! and Londiner’s citation from the Devenport Diary BBC gives an idea of how things might develop
    http://www.economist.com/node/16592602?story_id=16592602

  • Joe, I can assure anyone that the vast majority of peaceful protesters on the Crumlin Rd last Monday live in Ardoyne…

    Yes, there was ‘outsiders’ – political activists from various groups but most were residents!

    As 4 inevitability, there’s been serious civil unrest at that spot for decades, especially whenever Orange Parades pass.

  • Centrepoint

    “But the recent Ardoyne evidence suggests the “apolitical” rioters were in fact the victims of the “dissidents”.”

    Indeed the locations of the multiple riots show there is a dissident element at work. The choice of an actual interface where Protestant houses have been subjected to sectarian attack seems not coincidental either.

    The dissidents want the PSNI to shoot a child and they want to draw in loyalists to attacking Catholic homes. If it walks like a duck….

    Thankfully the PSNI and loyalists have not played ball.

  • In spite of claims by those with a party political agenda, those riots weren’t organised nor ‘sanctioned’ by GARC.

    In fact, GARC activists were and are no doubt recorded asking the youth not to throw anything etc.

    People need to remember that these riots take on a life of their own, so to speak……mob rule and all that!

    Totally agree, the riots took away from the main issue at stake in Ardoyne unwelcome parades!

  • Society as a whole needs to move the OO forward into dialogue….

    It is everyone’s responsibility that proper talks take place! Lots of demographic changes have taken place across the North and the Loyal Orders must take these facts into account.

    Forging ahead with marches where they are clearly not wanted is the problem.

    Maybe if the Orders were made to pay the whole policing operation for places like Ardoyne, it may well take a far different approach?

  • Mark McGregor

    No, definitely no balls. And yes I do stand by it, since he was pictured on major tv channel in Ardoyne, with another shot of him at a protest in, the reporter said, another city. I think it was the BBC or Sky. If I thought I was going to be the only one to see it I would have recorded it.

    I am not implying anything, that is why I said ‘if’! It is after all perfectly possible for someone to jump on the end of a protest, which is what I hope happened. I pointed it out to show how easily the original and perfectly proper protest had been sullied.

    Actually I find it hard to believe anyone would organise a riot. If I am suspicious it is based not on this one, but on PIRA SF efforts.

    BTW I thought I had ‘spat it out’ and what load of posts?. This is the first time I mentioned it!

  • wee buns

    Yes, send the OO the bill for policing & damage. The akshal price of their refusal to talk.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Mark,

    “Many across the media and constitutional life in the north seek to address what happened in Ardoyne, Lurgan and elsewhere as purely criminal problems demanding a policing/judicial response but maybe a glance at the books on shelves might indicate something more is needed.”

    Nationalist politicians and media commentators have mostly agreed that there needs to be dialogue between residents and the OO or these type of problems will continue.

    You seem intent on misrepresenting Nationalist reaction to these events to create the impression of political space for dissers or disser inspired violence.

    SF have correctly stated there are 2 problems – firstly unwanted OO parades fermenting sectarinasism and secondly dissers fermenting violence. if the first problem is solved then the second one will be much easier to deal with.

  • Mickles

    Forgive my youthful naivety, but can anyone fill me in on how some street in Belfast is connected to the battle of the boyne? I mean, if the marches are a celebration of the history of the battle, how did the Ardoyne come into the equation. Did King Billy finish up down in Louth and then head up to Belfast for 6 apple sours in the Eg?

  • old school

    Pippakin, so what if there were outsiders at the protest.
    The Orange Order and PSNI are also outsiders. During the Battle of the Bogside people came from all over Ireland also.
    This sounds like the US/UK propaganda of foreign fighters in Iraq.
    Those who were rioting were provoked.
    The media have conditioned and heavily edited the coverage to promote the establishment position.
    One UTV scene showed a PSNI officer point his plastic bullet gun, then it was cut, and finally we were shown him with a smoking gun. The image of him firing his gun was edited.
    Indeed, despite 70 plastic bullets being fired, and cameras in every position, not one T.V crew captured a round being
    fired.
    I’m a bit long in the tooth, and always read between the lines.
    In the media battle between Republican youth and the armed servants of the State (to quote a recent article of the Andersonstown News) I’ll always stand with the Republican youth.

  • joeCanuck

    And eventually lie alongside them in the ground. And for what? – “we fought the good fight against the British invaders”. Bah; wake up and smell the roses. there are lots of them.

  • Cynic

    Thats waffle. What are you suggesting?

  • old school

    ” I always stand with republican youth” Good! and perhaps you want the republican youth to grow and develop into caring, educated adults. The Ardoyne riot is not the way to do that. I believed in the original protest. The peaceful sit down one, it was completely submerged by the later riots. Its true, I think, that the media has been showing its usual bias, but if the media hold the gun, rioters provided the bullets.

  • Cynic

    ” firstly unwanted OO parades fermenting sectarinasism ”

    ….or protesters promotion sectarianism by acting against a legitimate exercise of marchers’ human rights?

  • Cynic

    “Orange Order and PSNI are also outsiders”

    at this particular point on the Crumlin Road the Prods (who may be in the OO parade or supporting it – I honestly don’t know but neither does anyone else) live on one side and the Catholics the other….so why are the Prods ‘outsiders’?

  • Cynic

    “I’ll always stand with the Republican youth.”

    …. ah ……the intellectual approach

  • Cynic

    Lets assume they were local residents.

    When the Parades Commission holds for them they scream that force must be used to stop the Parades. When it holds against them they break the law to block the route.

    Indeed, both sides take pat in posturing and charades on this known the police in the middle will stop it getting too far out of order. So here’s an idea… PSNI shouldn’t turn up next time and let them resolve it amongst themselves. Then after another 30 years or so perhaps there will be agreement or sense will have prevailed.

  • Alan Maskey

    “I’ll always stand with the Republican youth.”

    …. ah ……the intellectual approach

    ….. ah …… the felon setting approach

  • aquifer

    Recruiting twelve year olds sounds like child abuse.

    You know the kind of thing, where adults enjoy their exercise of power, physical pleasure, or voyeuristic control over young people whose own sense of right and wrong and capcity to resist is not fully developed.

    Whether for sex, sadism, death, or just a little local armed blackmail.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Those who were rioting were provoked.

    That’s what the unionists always say when the loyalists riot, or shoot someone. Everything is provocation.

    And I don’t see how someone can be provoked into stealing and burning out their own cars.

  • Mark

    You provided the evidence to support pippakin’s point in one of your own threads with the link to a relevant news report

    http://sluggerotoole.com/2010/07/15/the-king-is-dead/

  • Mark

    “One, neglecting to stuff a rag into the neck of the petrol-filled bottle, simply struck his lighter and set his hand ablaze. Another, who had been chanting: “SS RUC” for more than an hour, asked: “Who are the SS?””

    Some will need plenty of ‘politicisation’.

    On your first point, old timers trying to pretend certain things didn’t happen in their days turns out to be balls is not much of a surprise (but still fair enough to point it out) – Danny Morrision’s The Good Old IRA springs to mind.

    In Taylor’s programme about the Provos there is another example from Londonderry – can’t mind his name but it was an interview with a Provo who’d been a hardcore rioter and included a photo of him as a kid rioting

    “from a similar situation with similar numbers”

    Late 1960’s and 2010 aren’t genuinely comparable situations.

    “A large group of people initially involved in outpourings of sectarian anger”

    You mention but don’t address the issue of sectarianism as a motivation in the republican community. It certainly does undermine claims of an anti-sectarian motivation.

    As regards dissident republicanism it looks to me like they are trying to ape the Provo parmailitarism but in reality are look much more like Loyalist paramilitarism.

    Joe Canuck

    ” I think the OO are being intransigent but will be forced to talk”

    a) There have been a series of talks around the Crumlin Road parades
    b) The number of parades has been cut from 20 to 6 a (70% decrease)

    Old school

    ” not one T.V crew captured a round being
    fired.”

    Sorry to get in the way of a MOPE but I saw footage of plastic bullets being fired. A police officer was kneeling on top of a landrover firing at rioters on top of the shops. The recording also including what the officer was saying ie description of person he’d chosen as a target by what they were dressed in, (firing) and confirmation of a hit.

  • Alan Maskey

    Mark: Many Orange Order supporters are not for turning. They use the same, tired old arguments that, essentially, Protestants have the right to urinate wherever they please and to insult whomseover they please as it is their country that God, a narrow minded Orange clod stomper Himself, gave them. Progressives regard them as the irredeemable, ridiculous reactionaries that they are.

    Of all the heroes who served time for Mother Ireland, I remember one guy from Strabane. He was a cuddabeen snooker champion. Leo Green, who was on the first hunger strike and whose brother was murdered by SAS terrorists, was training to be an accountant. To spring the gobshites Joe Cahill et al by chopper from the Joy, the Provos got several dozen Dublin Provos to do short sentences and to thereby ruin their apprenticeships/careers/lives. There are countless more examples of the Provos squandering “cannon fodder” (a disgustingly apt term.)

    My point? The world knows how despicable the Orange people are. But there is more than one way of skinning a cat besides stuffing its mouth with butter. Doing time (which is what the armed struggle amounts to) is an awful waste of human resources. It might have made sense in 1972 or thereabouts. But it does not make sense now. No traction.

    And wishing won’t make it so.

  • Skintown Lad

    Interesting to hear Mark agree with the view that the driver for young men to join the IRA was pure sectarian anger.

  • Alan Maskey

    “Interesting to hear Mark agree with the view that the driver for young men to join the IRA was pure sectarian anger.”

    But that does not mean that he or Darkie Hughes is right. Bobby Sands played soccer with guys who went on to be UVF killers; getting burned out because of his ethnic religion pushed him in the direction of the PIRA and against making cups of tea for the RUC/OO. Danny Morrisson wrote that they would hope the Orange Order would attack early so that they could go home and get some sleep.
    Given that it was Protestant thugs who attacked the civil rights protesters at every phase and that it was Protestants who burned out Nationalist areas, only a fool would expect Christ like love to be extended to these Orange sociopaths.
    Perhaps the Nationalists should have followed the Red Army example in Fiinland when they sent their bands forward playing the Internationale. The Finns mowed them down; Sibelius would probably have got the same.
    When we consider the fate of John Turnley and other ordinary decent Protestants, we have to conclude that we have a very reactionary bunch of Protestants in the North East of our island. They still have not got the full come upopance they richly deserve.

  • Skintown Lad

    “Bobby Sands played soccer with guys who went on to be UVF killers”

    Wow. UVF killers played football with a Catholic? Here’s me thinking they were sectarian thugs. I shall have to adjust my entire world view.

  • Barnshee

    “the Prods live on one side and the Catholics the other….so why are the Prods ‘outsiders’?

    How inconvenient– why don`t the OO march on the Prod side of the road?

  • Barnshee

    “whose brother was murdered by SAS terrorists, was training to be an accountant”

    Ahhh my god the terrible loss the AN ACCOUNTANT what advances in science and medecine have been lost to humanity.
    (Speaking as one, one less bean counter might not be regarded as a bad thing)

  • joeCanuck

    a) There have been a series of talks around the Crumlin Road parades
    b) The number of parades has been cut from 20 to 6 a (70% decrease)

    Fair Deal,
    I did not know that. Thanks for the info.

  • terror porn.

  • you talk some shite.

    violence tends to gets condemned regardless of source. Apart from maybe in that head of yours. “well they might say they don’t like it but I know better”…

    sheesh.

  • vanhelsing

    nothing – it’s part of his charm – he waffles and promotes bigotry at every point. I read his posts for sheer comedy value:)

  • lamhdearg

    Can one of the people who believe the ballysillan/legoniel lodges bands and people should not walk past the ardoyne shops (on their way too and from the city centre) please suggest an alternative route.

  • Mark McGregor
  • anne warren

    Why do the Orange Order not take the alternative route? Is it longer? Shorter? Wider? Narrower?
    What do the people of Glenburn think about it? If they are happy with an Orange order parade through their residential area where’s the problem?
    If they are not happy why can’t the Orange Order flank the playing fields on the Glenburn side?
    There seem to be a lot of alternatives and possible solutions. What’s stopping the representatives of various bodies exploring them and arriving at a consensus?

  • lamhdearg

    Hello Mark
    Thanks as i did not think i would get a responce. One of the problems with the GARC suggested route is the crossing from glencarin to ballysillan(ironically known locally as harmony) . It is a 200 meter muck path about 8 to 10 foot wide encompassing a old stone bridge 6ft wide with a sign on it that reads “danger cross a own risk). If however nationlists would withdraw their objections to homes being built on the old somerdale school site a through road from somerdale park to ballygomartin road (folks without local knowledge see google maps)could provide a route that would avoid the ardoyne shops,

  • lamhdearg

    Anne i think you mean glencairn the GARC map has the word ardoyne across what is glenbryn, the people of glenbryn are amongst those(in lodges bands and supporters) trying to get home, As for “various bodies getting together” It has and will be tried again However (i know theres allways a however) among the ardoyne residents groups there are some who want to keep the pot boiling in northern ireland and if they put an end to the hated prods walking past ardoyne shops they will move on to another parade thats within earshot of a “Nationlist Area” and start protesting anew.

  • Mark McGregor

    lamhdearg,

    I’m not a local so don’t have much to offer other than directing you to the GARC route. However, 200m of it could surely be upgraded for less than the price of one riot? According to the Chief Constable the current route results in a significant cost.

  • anne warren

    Stand corrected, Lamh Dearg. As you can see I am not familiar with the layout of the area and map reading is not one of my strengths! However, alternatives do seem possible.
    Would fixing the “200 meter muck path about 8 to 10 foot wide encompassing a old stone bridge 6ft wide with a sign on it that reads “danger cross a own risk” cost as much as the recent riots did in policing, medical costs and damage to property and the image of NI? How much would “a through road from Somerdale Park to Ballygomartin Road ” cost? More or less? Has anybody done any feasibility studies?
    In reply to your comment “if they put an end to the hated prods walking past ardoyne shops they will move on to another parade thats within earshot of a “Nationlist Area” and start protesting anew.” I suggest taking one thing at a time. Let’s fix this problem, see what happens and then tackle the next if it arises, as you presume it will but don’t know for sure. Otherwise we remain stuck in the same old, same old . . . I refuse to accept there is no way out and that an exit strategy cannot be found!

  • lamhdearg

    Mark the GARC map is at best disingenuous not only do they have the starting point wrong (the parade does not come up the shankill but cuts through from the crumlin road to the woodvale) again see google maps, But it seems to be deliberately trying to make it look as if the controversial part of the route is longer then it is in reality, They the GARC would have the people in the parade take an almost two mile detor up some of the steepest paved roads in ulster through bog and meadow(exaggeration) instead of the two hundred or so yards between the woodvale road twaddell junction and somerdale park(Goggle maps) (These two hundred yards they see as their turf) As pointed out by “Fair-deal 20th july 10.01am the people of ballysillan used to parade with their lodges and bands 20 times a year its now 6 times the route has been changed from straight up/down the crumlin road to its now route to shorten the distance it past nationlist homes what part of compromise do the ardoyne residents not get, i don’t point this last question to the GARC as they do not do compromise.

  • lamhdearg

    “take an almost two mile detor up some of the steepest paved roads in ulster through bog and meadow(exaggeration)” May i point out that my exaggeration claim applies only to the word meadow. Good night.

  • King Kai

    Over 3000 people died during the troubles and you come out with crap like this, wise up and then grow up. Your going to have to face up to the fact that Protestants are the British presence in Northern Ireland and i was born here and im not leaving with or without a bloody nose. We have sinn fein acting as British Ministers, administering British law within the UK. They have twigged on they have to make the best of what they have got and you should do the same.

  • Seanie C

    Ok, the last petrol bomb has landed and the last of the smoke is starting to lift, tell to be open and honest. was there people from outside Ardoyne at the protest? Yes there was, some, friends of my own, were asked to attend in support of the residents, by the residents. They say no sorries for that and doubltless would do the same tomorrow again if asked. in fact they would go anywhere in the country to give that same assisance to any group of residents. was the rioting masterminded by them? if so then pleast explain why the first people hit by the stones and bottles were the people in the sit down protest and not the police? on the one hand people would have you behave that they an smart enough to mastermind the whole thing let dumb enough to place themselves on the firing line!!! one friend of mine, who’s name the police, sinn fein and the papers love to throw about, was one of them very people and he was is sickened by the rioting that followed as anyone, it completely took away from the real issue of the day. there is one other thing which has not been factored into the rioting, many upon many of the rioters were indeed locals and many were aged between 14 and 20 years of age, that would put them in the age group that were children witnessing and enduring the Holy cross gruntlet of hate, how much of the effect of that has been overlooked and understated? the riots of that time may well have put in place the setting for today, do we bleam the riots then on outsiders too? well i suppose in an way we could for Sinn Fein made many calls back then for people from all over to show support!!!!!!

  • King Kai

    Bobby Sands was removed from Rathcoole for housebreaking. He was renowned for it at the time and dont try he only did it because he was catholic and poor and needed the money as it wont wash, A bit like himself really.

  • Seanie C

    That should have read, time, not tell,
    yet, not let,
    blame, not bleam,
    sorry,

  • Alan Maskey

    Seanie: We forgive you your trespasses. Speaking of trespassing, why do the Orangies have to march at all? I can understand the need to march into a Catholic’s house and piss all over it as such shows of triumphalism are integral to the Orange Order.
    But if this is such a long march, why do they have to march back at all? Are there no bus companies happy to ferry Orange pisspots to and from their rallies?
    One of the sad things about the Troubles is how the Nationalists aped the Prods and got fife and drum bands. Lower class Protestants with their vulgar bands remind one of lower class neighbours one does not like. One gets their horrid kids a drum for Christmas. Vuvuzelas would be an improvement.
    Let’s hope it begins to sink in: You and your triumphalist culture (sic) are not wanted. March around your own neighbourhood only and drive your unfortunate neighbours to the madhouse.

  • HeinzGuderian

    This pathological hatred of everything British/Orange/Unionist and protestant,really does have to cease.

    By gad Al,if I wasn’t a broad minded fellow,I’d swear you were a bigot ?? 🙂

  • Alan Maskey

    The Orange Order is a horrid organisation. Just like the SS was. The SS might have been brave and the Orange Order might have helped nurture James Galway. But they are repulisive birds of a feather. Now, that might be hard to sell in Bavaria or parts of Belfast. But it is the truth.

  • Barnshee

    How many members of the OO

    1 Walked up behind people and shot them in the back ran away— and then denied it?
    2 Used bombs in public places killed and injured thousands –and denied it ?
    3 How many members of the OO murdered children who had the misfortune to accompany their father in the car?

    Numbers names and dates please.

    When Irish republicans stand up for their culture, they are noble freedom fighters.

    When Loyalists/Unionists do the same, they are bigots.

    Just some of the actions of the Roman Catholic community

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Mon_restaurant_bombing
    http://voice4democracyni.blogspot.com/2007/02/altnaveigh-massacre.html
    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/bfriday/nio/nio72.htm
    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/photos/coderry/claudy/claudyfigure1.htm
    http://www.iraatrocities.fsnet.co.uk/teebane.htm

    I could of course fill several pages with the references to 300 years of Roman Catholic attacks on protestants,simply a part of a long continum of such attacks often with the connivance of the ROI state and the Roman Catholic church

    I will however restrict myself to two more

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/chron/ch70.htm
    http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/protestants_1861_1991.html

    Dreadful people these prods –attack them and they have the temerity to reply in kind.

    The OO celebrates the survival of the reformed faith in Ireland in the teeth of hostility from catholic republic ireland -and that`s what really gets up their nose.

  • HeinzGuderian

    I find it quaint how nat/reps find all things Orange repulsive…………………..except,of course,the Third panel on the Oirish Flag ?? 🙂