Genteel expulsion of a sex crime ‘suspect’ from the Upper Falls…

A few days ago Slugger received this notice, sent out to people in the Upper Falls last Thursday. It documents the belief of the Brooke and Moor Park Residents Association that ‘a man charged with sex offences was moved into our area’. It continues:

“Residents and community leaders contacted the PSNI and other relevant agencies to get the situation to resolved, but to no avail. As a result the community decided to come together and work towards resolving the problem. The only resolution for our community was the removal of this man from our community.”

You should be able to read the rest of the text. The tone is reasonable and measured throughour.  Only, the content is rather disturbing.

The upshot is the man was removed from ‘the community’ after a meeting lasting several hours of talks with residents, ‘community leaders’, the PSNI and the man’s landlord. Once again it raises yet more questions about the resort to expulsion that show scant regard for human rights and due process of law.

Of course no one likes the idea of someone who might be a sex offender living near them or their kids. And I’ve seen a few (mostly middle class) panics over this subject over the years. But who get to decide whether or not someone can live amongst any given community?

What ever the particulars of this situation, you dispense so summarily with the rights of any individual at your own (and your community’s) peril…

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  • lamhdearg

    Thanks upper falls (poor attempt at sarcism) where is he now?

  • Chris Browne

    Quite concerning I agree. These folk will have to live somewhere and the disregard for his rights are unacceptable.

    I admit that I would rather such a character did not live next door to myself, however I would also see there is very little I could do about it.

  • I hate to be the first to comment but… The fact is we are all far more likely to be attacked by someone we know, and I would argue the most dangerous predator is the trusted uncle, parent, friend or, dare I say it, respected priest.

  • Oracle

    I have absolutely no problem with the expulsion of sex offender…….. NONE

    I have MAJOR MAJOR problems with the expulsion of those not yet found guilty….

  • joeCanuck

    It’s a world wide problem. Where are sex offenders going to live when released from jail? Nobody seems to have found a solution. A sex offenders colony?

  • Chris Browne

    I get what you’re saying Oracle, but where should any convicted sex offender therefore live on release from prison?

  • sdelaneys

    Many, if not most, people agree with that analysis.

  • andnowwhat

    Funny enough Joe, a kind of colony is what I have thought of. There was a case here a decade ago or so of a sex offender and he was getting chased out of town too.

    What struck me was that he said he didn’t want to be released.He was so sure that he would re offend.

    Now, as far as I know, he hasn’t done anything but these are complex issues here.

    Is a paedophile (I don’t know what the guy this thread is about did) a criminal or are they ill?

    What follow up is involved after release?

    Can society stop knee jerking to each case and come up with a cohesive policy to deal with the issues?

  • sdelaneys

    Caral Ní Chulin will put them alongside the people from Ardyone she wants evicted for taking part in the ‘unofficial’ protest there.

  • andnowwhat

    Not sure either but regardless I stand by what I said above.

    Is a paedophile sick? I dont think so, at least not in the accepted definition of sick. I think of it as a disposition, some of us are heterosexual, some are homosexual. Paedophilia is obviously not a choice, but there is evidence it is ‘learned’, ie. victims of abuse may become abusers. I doubt there is a cure but I sincerely hope Im wrong. I object to the idea of people being evicted because of a charge, they could at least wait for the verdict.

    I must admit Im tempted by the idea of a colony…

  • bobbydylan

    how long before there is a book dedicated to this guy??

  • Because it’s going around,
    http://www.aolnews.com/politics/article/calif-gubernatorial-candidate-douglas-hughes-touts-pedophile-island-for-sex-offenders/19487289

    It’s a horrific crime and illness, but I feel that the members of society who call abuse with predatory opportunity also ought to be arrested/placed in healthcare or ostracised from their communities.

  • andnowwhat

    HI pippa.

    An American guy on another site was saying that if an abuser was abused, they aren’t prosecuted. I don’t know if this is in all states (I doubt it).

    Often paedophiles or abused or many of them are for emotional reasons, arrested at a certain point.

    When I say I believe in a colony, I mean some place that is secure but where they van live a productive life, working and all the normal stuff of life but keot away from the rest of society..

    I totally agree with your fellings regarding people being evicted.

    Evicted? To what ends? To move where? It’s way to Nolaneque for me

  • sdelaneys

    You know what? we all say that, we all believe that, and yet, this is not the first case of its kind. Even worse, Im not sure I would be any better!

  • Michael

    Saw this place on a Theroux documentary.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalinga_State_Hospital

    I came away with mixed feelings to say the least.

  • andnowwhat

    On subjects this complex I paraphrase the fundamentalist cry of, “what would Jesus do?”

    My version is “what does Sweden do?”

    Anyone know?

  • Phil Free

    Mixed feelings on this. He has to live somewhere I suppose, especially that he has been charged, but not convicted of anything.

    However, better he was ‘politely’ asked to sling his hook instead of being kneecapped or worse ala the olden days, I suppose.

    Hard to be sympathetic, considering the implied potential offences committed and i’m lost for a solution and as I said, he is innocent until tried and convicted (or aquitted). Perhaps prison service run hostels in carefully selected locations. But then they might become easy targets for mobs.

    Best leave it for those wiser about the issue I suspect.

  • Cynic

    At the risk of lowering the tone, perhaps its a sign of progress?

    At least they don’t now make him Treasurer of the Local Cumman

  • Driftwood

    No shortage of space in Maynooth these days?

  • joeCanuck

    Anyone know if chemical castration works? An alternative to being exiled to a colony for the convicted.
    Another case of competing rights, like marching.

  • Alan maskey

    “Of course no one likes the idea of someone who might be a sex offender living near them or their kids. ”

    Well, Sinn Fein have put them up for election. So someone, not just their mums, like them.

  • Michael

    Take a look at the Theroux documentary I linked to earlier, the only inmate to leave the facility did so because he agreed to physical castration, I guess they didn’t trust the chemical variety.

  • joe

    As far as I know, and last time I checked it was accurate, the drugs only work if the guilty party continues to take them…

    Possibly, and however much some would deny it, it becomes a question of choice. The sex we want is not always the sex we get. I hope that is not crude, it is not intended to be, but it is what it amounts to.

  • Michael

    They’re available on you tube

  • Driftwood

    Must be a few dog collars in Clonard a bit worried.

  • Alan maskey & Cynic

    You two have a lot in common. My views on child abuse are by now pretty well known and I will be unforgiving (in spades) when the trial/s are over. Until then and in spite of whatever you may think of me or them, innocent until guilty applies.

  • Phil Free
  • Oracle

    Chris,

    I have absolutely no idea at all, for child abusers I flit between an enforced segragation and life meaning life

  • RepublicanStones

    If this person is not yet convicted then this is wrong. If this person has been convicted it is also wrong, yet as a parent, I can’t deny the part of myself which would argue otherwise. I’m not going to condemn the residents here, because tbh, I don’t know what my own feelings would be if I were in their position.

  • RepublicanStones
  • Mick Fealty

    Joe, he’s a suspect, not an ex con…

  • Munsterview

    Pip.

    1) No cures as such, the propensities are always there to the end of life. The best that Councilling can come up with is to try and condition the offenders thinking process to associate paedophile images with adverse images such as a crowd chasing them down a street etc.

    2) Born Again Christians etc is another form of condinioning that specialised studies have shown, can be break down at any time and is not to be trusted.

    3) All abuse victims do not go on to be abusers : if however all primary sexual experiences occured in a process of pre-mature, child sexualisation, then these will be the associate triggers for sexuality in these same adult males in particular and will alyays remain so. These impulses will always impell and all too often also compell!

    4) While the Elietes of Western Society tolerate paedophillia as an acceptable, if minority sexual preference to be regarded as little different to keeping a mistress or indulging in specialised sexual services, then the tolerance for abuse, as we have seen in some of the highest offices in this State as in Belgium, will filter down to create a passive attitute on the ground among authorities that are supposed to be dealing with the problem.

    5 ) In the past 25 years I have seen little change in this whole area other than Judges having a greater appreciation of what is involved. I know of where one case was lost because the Judge was of the old school, he was obviously distressed by the case, he found the details distastefull and yet he found against the mother as to use his own words he…….. “Could not envison anyone father being so vile as to do the things described to their own son !”

    6) Support services, properly trained specialised personell or threatment centres do not exist nor is their provision seen as a priority

    6 ) A young child introduced to pre-mature sexualisation is likely to have life long problems in establishing functioning or healthy relationships with the adult world; a paedophile can create dozen to over a hundred victims in the course of their lifes. In the light of this just what is an acceptable risk with these offenders ?

    7) Support services, properly trained specialised personell or threatment centres do not exist nor is their provision seen as a priority !

  • Driftwood

    All dog collars, whatever their ‘persuasion’ and -excuse the mix metaphor-‘Macavity the mystery cat’ comes to mind, remain suspect. In terms of the Falls, I presume the Caflick collars would be predominant.

  • RepublicanStones

    All dog collars, whatever their ‘persuasion’

    Yeah Drift….sure

    No shortage of space in Maynooth these days?

  • DC

    Is the person ‘suspected’ of a contact offence?

  • andnowwhat

    I can’t believe Drift’s post has been allowed to stay,

  • Cushy Glenn

    a “sex offender”……
    is he (presumably it’s a he)..
    an occasionally inappropriately curious internet porn viewer:
    an 18 year old charged with sex with his 15 year old girlfriend;
    an educationally sub normal male who kissed a girl on the mouth when drunk and she objected:
    an old age pensioner down the pub who leered at a wee cuddy and made an obscene comment to her about her embonpoint:
    a sheepshagger;
    or a multiple paedophiliac rapist?
    Or all of the above?

    None of whom I’d want as a neighbour, but all of whom would be required to sign the register on conviction. Some are clearly a major risk to my neighbourhood; others probably less so. The very calibrated range of sex offences prevention orders recognise the need for a tailored response. This response is on a par with the Portsmouth mums who weren’t having no paediatricians in their neighbourhood, but being the Falls Road it’s done with a bit more media nous. Doesn’t make it any less obnoxious though

  • Munsterview

    This thread shows every sign of following the usual pattern of trowing up more heat than light and once again it also shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what is involved in paedophile activity.

    This lack of appreciation also means that the lack of facilities, structures or will in society to deal with these mainly male offenders and the real danger they pose to children is not provided for.

    For the benefit of newcomers can I again say that a close friend is a forensic psychologist with Lower Degrees and a Masters in the area of abuse, she could not afford time to complete her Doctorate but her work is used by the UK police forces as well as the FBI.

    Her work is insightful because she in turn was involved with a member of her family from when the initial abuse came to light at six right through until at sixteen when this person was on the streets and had their first breakdown after which they were sectioned and forcibly detained, for the first of many times, in a mental hospital in the UK.

    Throw in Drink, Drugs, Male prostitution and completion of the abused / abuser cycle, repeated breakdowns and hospitalization and it is not a pretty picture.! The abuser with the assistance of the Intelligence Services on these islands got off scott free. However since he too was a victim, behind the suave bravado there is a very troubled man indeed!

    The activity spanned Ireland and the UK. It has continued for almost twenty five years and no end in sight. The case was made even more complicated by the fact that the child’s abuser was a police informer in both Jurisdictions, he was close to people who were close to McGlinchy et al, as well as involving himself in all sorts of left wing activity, so he was a most valuable resource.

    Prison books by reformed criminals have given insights into this individual during his own imprisonment and he is a pathetic, small fry figure constantly getting drugged up to impress ‘The Heavies’ but instead turning into a babbling fool who was constantly dragged off to solitary.

    The Irish state refused to prosecute and any processing was done by the mother, the State refused to disclose their files on this individual for obvious reasons, the criminal case was frustrated and held in camera. The Civil action succeeded with telephone numbers damages given but given the Mothers experience of the UK courts ( she was a UK Subject ) it was pointless attempting to get the Irish Court award processed in the UK.

    In the adult world serial rape is not about the sex act per se; there are reams of evidence from trials in the Western World to back this up, it is usually about males, powerless, inadequate in their ability to form a fulfilling relationship who get physical body control over a woman and then play cat and mouse with this female where sexual intercourse per se is not the primary gratification, the exercise of power over the helpless female victim is!

    Most active experienced male padophiles will have a child targeted to seduce, another on the go that they are active with and a third they are dropping in a controlled way, or as is more likely if they are networked, passing on to an associate.

    To in anyway understand this mentality, think conman and dud cheque man ( as the offender also was ) it is always for the ‘High’ and the satisfaction of ‘The Con’ rather than the money per se.

    Same with neighbor padophiles, the primary gratification is from grooming the child over a period under the nose of the adult world, having their sexual contact and getting away with it afterwards, which most do!

    Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic, one mouthful of alcohol is enough to kick start the whole cycle all over again and most of us have had that experience with friends on drink or drugs, the cannot afford the indulgence, one slip and it is back to the old ways until they go through the usual cycle of getting dry or clean…..if they do.

    With a paedophile every likely child is a trigger for their activity, just how can this be guarded against ?

    Since this is mainly centered in mind games where every sexual thought or fantasy involves a child, chemical castration, actual castration or removal of all male genitalia is ineffective as, to put it crudely, it is the brain that needs to be removed and not the balls!

    Since it do not directly arise here, I have not gone into instutionalised pedophile where certain elites of all society have significant sections who are practicing padophiles. It seldom involves their own children but in any major city in the Western World, Ireland included, keyed in individuals can get access to children in a couple of phone calls.

    Where this has a bearing is that while there is toleration for these practices by top elites when it involves some of their own class, then these attitudes filter from the top down. What was Kincora and the FR Brendan Symith case about if not low standards in high places, to quote the late George Colley, if not Padophiles in High Office covering up for other Padophiles ? We do not have to go to Belgium for this behavior, we have enough examples here in this Island.

    In regard to communities taking ‘ The Law ‘ into their own hands to protect their own children, if they do not do so who will, especially if most of these are known to the police forces and acting as covert informers for tolerance ?

    It is a very ugly area but ignoring the problem or handwringing will not make it go away. It cannot be prevented, it can only be controlled and one way of doing this is make sure known padophiles are not using communities they live in to select and stalk their next target.

    The only effective and sure way to do this is to get them out and keep them out !

  • M V

    I am so tempted to agree, but surely any community can wait for the verdict, and there have been silly, stupid mistakes. The case in England: hounding a paediatrician out of their home! is an appalling example.

    The other thing is these people have to live somewhere and there is no ‘cure’. The cause, who knows, few abused children grow into abusive adults, those who do may have become abusers anyway, who knows.

    You are right of course. It does not get enough official attention, nothing like enough. It may be some ‘big wigs’ think it a ‘harmless’ crime, they are wrong. One way or another the victim suffers years of pain, during and after the assault.

  • Munsterview

    Pip.
    Guilty until proven innocent must be always balanced against the common good in that while it applies in principle, in practice there often good, graduated right compelling reasons why denying an accused person is inkeeping with the common good.

    Succesfull prosecutions in the whole are of sex crimes are the exception to the rule and only some of these crimes are reported. I have known where lecturers in third level institutes of psycology have come into court to speak for the abuser, yet they had no actual direct experience of the problem or specialised training, they were just trading on their teaching status and had little appreciation of the problem.

    In one such case, one such person gave evidence for the abuser based on frequent and ongoing interviews with the abused victim. After the mother enduring what I can only describe as a year and a half of montly torment and ridicule in the courts, the victim then suddenly admitted what happened, times,dates, locations, etc.

    The Starte produced expert was requested by the Superior court Judge to interview the child in his chamber away from social workers etc. She did and came back very shaken. All she could offer the court was ” either he has been lying all along or he is lying now…… and I cannot say which ”

    She then on the stand told the Judge that she was resigning from the case and refused to answer any of the Judges further questions on the grounds that ” there are legal issues involved and I now need legal advice” She dodged coming back into court and the childs mother could not afford the cost of a civil case to persue her. Besides dealing with her abused son was a 24/7 occupation.

    Eighteen wasted and expensive months of hell for the mother, a whole year and a half where this arrogant professional but igornant person prevented proper treatment for the child that at the end of this stage was too far gone to turn, he renewed contac with the abuser for financial reward a few months later and continued to wreck his life.

    The third level instution concerned denied any responsibility for this woman although she had continually used her Senior Lecturershil at this instution as proof of her credentials when challanged as to her specialised knowledge in this area.

    Having seen the havoc these offenders have caused and the human wreckage that they have left behind in their unaccountable wake, this is one area where prevention rather than cure should be the objective and if the occasional innocent person have their lives distrupted, that has to be balkanced against community child security.

  • Munsterview

    Apologies for spelling etc, spell checker on the blink!

  • M V

    Surely it is wrong to traumatise someone, drive them from their home and community, and then find out they were completely innocent, or it was a case of mistaken identity.

    I am pretty hard line when it comes to paedophiles and for that reason I need to be sure its the right person accused and eventually found guilty. The risk of covering someone with the terrible slur of child abuser is too great to ignore, there would always be someone (possibly me) saying there is no smoke without fire!

    I agree with you about the ‘professionals’ – not got a clue most of em, they do more harm than good.

  • wee buns

    Likes of Fritzel, I would have no problem with a bullet through the head. In general I do not plump for the death penalty. But repeated offenders; their lives serve no purpose.

  • TheHorse

    Pippakin Do you believe they are sick people mentally imbalanced, they know its wrong but they just cant help not doing it or a kickback from the caveman times in our gene pool or are peadophiles/child abusers just sexual predators who are highly intelligent people who plan every opportunity to be around children. Are they people following the footsteps of their own abusers, abused themselves and dont understand its wrong.

  • The Horse

    The simple answer is I dont know. It may be everything you say. I dont believe its a choice. I dont believe anyone would choose such a thing.

    But some are completely without conscience, they are the predator padeophiles planning and seeking out their victim and no doubt for them the plan, the chase and the anticipation is part of their condition.

    I dont know. I doubt if anyone does.

  • B.R.F

    I Live in the Brooke area and being a father of two young girls i was delighted that this was brought to my notice..would any of your Bloggers be happy living beside such a person…?

  • slappymcgroundout

    I found this line particularly rich:

    “This was not about the community taking the law into their own hands or engaging in a which hunt.”

    No, it was about a mob doing what mobs do. He simply decided to leave before you all came back with the torches and pitchforks. And so you miscreants there in the Upper Falls get the point:

    If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same; or
    If two or more persons go in disguise on the highway, or on the premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege so secured—
    They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.

  • Munsterview

    Yeah Slappy,

    Got something like that down this neck of the woods too. Some years ago in a Southern City local community protesters were arrested protesting outside the home of a drug dealer dealing from home and attracting unsavoury types into the area.

    They were threatned with imprisonment in court and prevented from further protesting.

    The dealer just went on dealing with de facto poliece protection but what the hell, his Civil Rights were not infringed. And then we wonder where the drug problem came from?

  • B.R.F

    I live in the Brooke area and have two young children and was shocked to hear the news but glad that the news was made public… also delighted that something was done about it. If we were waiting on the forces of law and order to do something regarding the issue, we would of never been informed, thats is until a crime was committed!!

  • slappymcgroundout

    I would suggest that in your example, there was a failure in law enforcement. Perhaps instead of picketing the dealer, they might have picketed their local elected representatives and the chief of police. Then maybe some appropriate law enforcement action might have been taken with respect to the soul dealing drugs.

    All that happens here is our man moves somewhere else, and so becomes someone else’s problem (assuming that he is a problem). The drug dealer might have just as easily done the same. I simply suggest that making him someone else’s problem isn’t any solution at all.

  • Munsterview

    Slappy…
    Anti-Drugs and organising community support against it was one of the main items on the Sinn Fein agenda that ordinary people could relate to and it gathered much popular support for the party.

    Dick Spring as a Government Minister suspended work on the Peace Process until he got a commitement from Sinn Fein that they would cease all involvement in the Anti-Drug Movement. Sinn Fein stopped, the people did not forget and Martin Ferris TD now has his seat.

    Dick had delivered the goodies in spades to Tralee and Kerry during his long period in politics, but the electorate preferred a convicted gun runner and former political prisoner willing to stand up to druggies rather than Dick, however bountifull his ‘goodie bag’ was!

    With respect slappy you do not seem to know too much about how the Poliece operate down here ! Do you know for example that Donegal Gardai had a garage converted into a factory to make explosives mix, which they planted in the North at a critical time in the Peace Process. Lashing of overtime all round, commendations for the Northern poliece who ‘ found’ the explosives etc, ect.

    It is all there in a Judicial enquiry! How many Dismissals From the Force followed ? How many procussions followed ? How many forced retirements? How many lost their pension ? It involved a whole compromised Garda division in the Donegall area, Gardai HQ continually denied there was a problem then when confronted with the undeniable Judicial evidence, the ‘ allegations absolutely without foundation’, quickly became ‘ just a few rotten apples’.

    No open Parlimentary enquiry, just the cops investigating themselves as usual and providing a report for the Minister for Justice for his eyes only! Look it up for yourself and then get back to us with a few more suggestions, we all know how Justice and Law Enforcement should be adminestered but, hey man what can I say, this is Ireland !

  • Munsterview

    Slappy….

    Somewhat off thread but it may still interest you !

    Bear in mind that Michael McDowell is the former Minister For Justice! Had not all of this information been already disclosed in a High Court case it would have never seen the light of day ! Absolutely no conflict of interest of course, how on earth could anyone ever think such a thing.

    Now, google up, read on…… Enjoy! Perhaps even dare to believe ?

    www,wearechangeireland.com

    http://spirit-of-truth.org/?p=13

    sound file 1 Irish Army Officers Supplying Arms to Assassins

    We are talking about his solicitor an ex Minister For Justice and an ex Minister from the Irish Government that is representing him for 16 Million Euro against Irish Army Officers buying Arms on the Black-market in South Africa and shipping them to the Seychelles.

    To expand on that audio recording the ex Minister for Justice is Barrister Michael mc Dowel and he is named in other audio recordings. And when I originally asked Peter if he was telling me that serving Irish Army Officers were buying illegal Arms on the Black-market he said Yes and he told all this to Michael Mc Dowel and recorded giving him this information which as you will see at this level of security would be standard practice.

    So it appears Michael Mc Dowel a barrister of the Bar Council and a former Irish Minister for Justice knew that Irish Army Officers were buying illegal Arms on the black-market to train and Arm teams of Assassins. He then proceeded to cover this up with Irish High Court case 2009/2845 P a bogus breach of contract case for € 16 million and Michael Mc Dowel made money by doing so.

    The names of defendant’s listed first names last, in this high court case were three serving and two former Irish Army Officers and all are directors or employees of Aver international Ltd. with the exception of Francis Chang Lang who was the Governor General of the Central Bank in the Seychelles.

    I was informed Governor General Francis Chang Lang resigned and later absconded to Dubai after he was served with a summons for this High Court case linking him to these men involved with the illegal Arms for Assassins. This operation was described to me as setting up a secret organization on a par with the CIA of America.

  • Munsterview

    Regrets : should have made it clear that all following, after this line ……….

    Now, google up, read on…… Enjoy! Perhaps even dare to believe ?

    ……… is actually copied from the article

  • Munsterview

    Here is some interesating material inkeeping with the topic of the thread, I could not located it the last time around some weeks ago and some wise guy linked the sites quoted by me to flying saurcers reports, etc ……. there are always some who try to deflect from these exposures, no need to search too far for the reasons !

    The only flying saucer connection to this one is that all named should be rounded up and shipped off in one! Judge for yourself how widespread the problem is!

    *********************************************************************************************************
    http://info-wars.org/2010/01/10/a-list-of-child-sex-offenders-inside-the-british-government/

    A List Of Child Sex Offenders Inside The British Government
    January 10, 2010 by Infowars Ireland 

    By Cuthulan
cuthulan.wordpress.com

    As a follow up to my previous post about child molesters in the Government and the blackmail potential here is a FOI (Freedom Of Information) request about alleged peadophiles past and present with connections to the Halls of power today.
    A Freedom of Information request to Home Office by Derek Canning LLB [HONS] and Francis.P.

    A List Of Child Sex Offenders Inside The British Government …………

  • Comrade Stalin

    Sounds good. Let’s abolish the police and courts and set up a special kangaroo justice system operated by “community representatives”. That way we will never see justice delayed ever again.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Munstewview:

    With respect slappy you do not seem to know too much about how the Poliece operate down here !

    Where is “down here” ? Rhode Island ?

  • Reader

    Munsterview: Bear in mind that Michael McDowell is the former Minister For Justice! Had not all of this information been already disclosed in a High Court case it would have never seen the light of day !
    Wow. Deja Vu. Old habits die hard. Do you also have any links that tell us whether Haughey and Blaney were supplying arms on their own initiative or were they only obeying orders? (Still not quite on topic, but at least this earlier case is more local)

  • Munsterview

    Right, no problem, you are on! I will pencil it in for an article somewhere down the line, I will have the first of these posted shortly, I do have a life apart from slugger!

    I personally knew many of the main players in the drama and discussed things in detail with them whenever opportunity permitted down the years. Here is a teaser : did you know that there were plans to set up a militia something along the lines of Pasleys Paramilitary force? Well possibly more along the lines of ideas in that area that were explored at the time.

    I got to know Cpt James Kelly fairly well post the Arms Trial, he was an honorable man that would never under any circumstances compromised his commissioning oath as an Officer of the Defense Forces to serve and protect the Constitution.

    Captain James Kelly believed himself at all times to be acting under lawful orders orders from superiors attempting to implement Government policy. That always remained not alone his firm belief but it was also the belief of others including Cpt, Feehan of Mercier Press who I also knew and who in turn was well keyed in to these Radical (? ) but still mainly Constitutional Circles. It is no doubt a fascinating story! Meanwhile for any interested some references.

    Captain Kelly Justice Campaign
    Order ‘The Thimbleriggers’ by James Kelly – The Dublin Arms Trials of 1970 … to read from Jim’s book, ‘Orders for the Captain’ detailing his arrest. …
    http://www.captainkelly.org/ – Cached – Similar

    1. ‘Arms Crisis’ captain – portrait unveiling | IrishDigest.com11 Apr 2010 … Immediately after James Kelly’s death he launched the Captain Kelly … “He [ Kelly] had acted on what he believed were proper orders. …
    http://www.irishdigest.com/?p=5720 – Cached

    1. Captain James Kelly grievously wronged – Analysis, Opinion …7 Jun 2010 … CAPTAIN James Kelly was grievously wronged in the Arms Trial of October 1970. … of the State and under orders from his superior officer, …
    2. http://www.independent.ie/…/captain-james-kelly-grievously-wronged-348558. html

  • Munsterview

    Comrade S.

    May I respectfully remind you that there is a EU ban on over fishing threatned species that apply to these Islands and you have long exceed your permitted Red Herring Quota !

    Compliments to your trawler skipper, Turgon ! ( if he has not fallen asleep at the helm or tripped overboard, is he still headed for the rocks ? )

  • Munsterview

    Sexual activity is one of the most basic of human drives! The majority expression of this drive is via one to one consenting adults of opposite sex. Aside from this there is a whole range of sexual activities involving consenting adults that society as a whole, tolerate.

    In general most world cultures and religions accept and prohibit any form of sexual contacts between adults and children. Most also regard the premature sexualization of children as taboo and a crime.

    Pederasty and paedophile activity is regarded by all modern society as unacceptable deviant behavior with good reason given the unhealthy mentalities it creates in both the abuser and the abused. If all the arousal sexual stimulation and gratifications triggers implanted in the brain in early formation include young participating children, these remain in adult life and will always impel the individual towards repeating the imprinting experience.

    There are thousands of studies out there available on the net, anyone interested can inform themselves as to what is involved, and given the seriousness of the topic should, if they are concerned about the activity and the havoc it causes in society, contary to the common good!

  • wee buns

    It is true: a pitiful, wretched & deplorable lack of efficiency within the judicial & police systems with regards child welfare & family law. Anyone who has rubbed shoulders with this system knows how undetached from the welfare of the child it actually is. They would need to get heir collectively sorry act together. Any dunderhead can understand that in the absence of an efficient system, people are entitled to act, preferably within the law, to protect their community. Given the covert nature of most child abuse, it is even more Important that the right thinking people can act overtly, & legally.

    Personally given a threat to y children when three hare small, my instinct way t cut the perpetrator’s throat with a brad knife. It was an appropriate feeling which was not carried out.. What is utterly inappropriate is the attitude of the law, dtate (making it a low priority) the church etc Which is not cured through cutting throats. But then how do you change it??
    Yeah whadabbout answers this time, as to how to change our lives.

  • Munsterview

    I read your links. Interesting, but hardly tory or labour top drawer, there are/were bigger fish out there! I have read up on the ‘bigger fish’ and whilst they are interesting I can find no trace of evidence, not even the rumoured D notice. Regardless I believe there is cause for suspicion of some very big names. One tory whatsit who suddenly buggered off to Europe, with no apparent reason to believe the Westminster career was over, and at least one other who took himself off in a similar direction and later to the House of Lords. So many questions and no real answers!

    I still believe that without a conviction there should be no exclusion. It is too serious a condemnation.

  • Munsterview

    Pip

    Two years ago I attended a lecture given my a leading surgeon and a former serving Officer in the British Army who has made pererasty ( sex between adult men and young boys ) or more specifically the practice of pederasty in Establishment Circles, the subject of a life long study.
    He is a man I have had a few long chats with. He is also one whom I respect for the courage of his public stand.

    The audience was mainly middleclass, most third level, quite a few there were Old Fabians and all were politically aware above the normal. All were shocked speechless by the end and a wave of absolute outgage followed !

    This man was not dealing with small fry or minor figures, he gave dates, times and places where leading public figures were linked to this activity and he publically invited those the named, including Government Ministers to sue him. He was dealing with instutionalised, Establishment fostered and toletated pederasty more boy child prostitution than paedophile activity per se.

    You are right about those charged and convicted not being ‘top tier’ apparently there is a certain level over which there are little or no prossecutions in GB.

  • Munsterview

    Not only in GB! For the RCC to have been so successful here there must have been many a blind eye turned, up to and including Albert Reynolds.

    Back to GB. A field marshall was rumoured to prefer young men. It is a long list!

    The good news is the ‘veil’ is being lifted, or perhaps ripped off by out own insistence on truth. I find it heartening that so many are now prepared to speak out.

  • Munsterview

    My apologies, I meant of course ‘young males’!

    Going back to my previous comment the ‘other one to disappear to Europe (ish) was a labour bod!

    Sorry, I am discovering a black eye hurts! who’d have thought..Going to take some Asprin and go to bed.

  • Manfarang

    And the moral of the story is if you kill someone people won’t feel too bad about you but don’t do anything involving sex.
    While we are on the subject, Munsterview got any low down on that ex-priest from your part of the world that lives in this part of the world.

  • Munsterview

    Any names; more than a few of that category about I would think at this stage?

  • Manfarang

    I thought you might have the list!

  • Reader

    Munsterview: Captain James Kelly believed himself at all times to be acting under lawful orders orders from superiors attempting to implement Government policy.
    I have a genuine but casual interest in the case – so don’t knock yourself out. I acknowledge the sincerity of the Captain Kelly Justice Campaign. But Kelly himself, however sincere, could well have been factually incorrect on either or both counts: “Lawful orders” and “Government policy”.
    I would be fascinated to see a thread on this topic, if you can sell the notion to Mick Fealty. But I long ago stopped believing that sincerity implies accuracy, let alone that sincerity was a guaranteed path to morality.

  • Munsterview

    A review of the last four decades cannot be undertaken without including that period or the watershed effect it had on Irish politics, so Mick may very well buy in.

    Prior to 1970 I was in what is now generally referred to the Army Reserve until my O’C informed my that certain gentlemen ( or not so gentle men ) from Military Intel were interested in me and before all the dots were joined up, under the circumstances he suggested my immediate resignation may not be a bad idea considering what the alternative could be! I agreed.

    All in all a few enjoyable years, a handy few bob for the weekend as apprentice wages were cat, and a few stripes on the sleeve gave a good insight into what a regular soldiers thinking is. Because I knew the mindset it also made exploration of these military chains of command easier with Cpt. Kelly etc.

    Cpt Kelly was a serving soldier, he got orders from a Superior Officer, his Commanding Officer in charge of Military Intelligence and he carried out those orders. Things are really that simple for a serving soldier! ‘ Theirs is not to question why…..’ etc.

    The pivotal figure here is the Then Minister For Defense and his role. It helps too if you can envision a situation where FF thought they owned the Country and all the State Forces were there, like the servants in a Big House and Estate just to do their to do their bidding!