DUP to block Gaza debate at Stormont today…

The DUP is moving to block a vote on the emergency Gazza debate today through using a ‘petition of concern.’ Mover of motion is William Irwin.

The debate was proposed by independent MLAs Gerry McHugh and Dr Keiran Deeny, and supported by at least 30 MLAs. Under Standing Order 11 of the rules that govern the Assembly, if the First Minister/deputy First Minister or at least 30 MLAs request a special sitting, the Assembly can be recalled.

The plenary sitting is scheduled to begin at 2pm and expected to finish by 3.30pm.

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  • Driftwood
  • Munsterview

    Greenflag et al

    Another piece of interesting reading. I know the guy, I have met him at a few conferences and he knows his stuff. He also knows the Middle East and is a frequent traveller there!.

    It the links do not come up google Nexus for the magazine articles listings.

    State-Sponsored Terror in the Western World 04/18/2008
    Hits: 3118
    By Philip Coppens. Most terrorist attacks in Europe, whether attributed to left-wing or right-wing activists or even Islamist fundamentalists, can be traced to actions by government-sponsored military or intelligence agencies.

  • wee buns

    MV

    sporadic visits here, nonetheless very interesting how the thread has developed in the past dayz. The best informed contributors are clearly not supporters of the current Israeli position. Although as you point out, this Israeli state is in rude health, confirmed by the fact that international outcry is impotent, or so it would seem…thus far.

    Artistic boycott, some say, hurts more than ecconomic boycott. Loach was right to object to Israeli film entry in the Edinburgh Festival; after directing The Wind That Shakes The Barely, how could he not? It was nothing personal against the young filmaker concerned. Herein lies a large problem, that current Israeli policy is neccesarily an abuse of their own people also, who for example, are tempeted by financial incentives, such as very cheap morgages, to settle in luxery apparments on newly stolen territory. Many are (due to the usual state propaganda/askew history) largely unawake to the abuses of their the state.

    Fisk, having done his time in B’fast, and being of good intellect, understand the parallels perfectly.

    Looking forward to your further contributions!

  • Munsterview

    Brian

    “…… They can debate this crap in their free time.”

    Very good comment, excellent even………. in terms of showing where your thinking that is !

    I will bear this in mind regarding your future contributions.

  • JG

    David Vance: “Go Israel”

    Jesus wept. No wonder you can’t get eletced with that kind of childish attitude.

  • JG

    What would you expect from a pig but a grunt?

  • JG

    Unlike you good self, Hamas have a democratic mandate. Is it hatred of Muslims or Arabs that drives you, or is it jealousy of those who can win an election?

  • Brian

    how bout the maze?

  • Brian

    Please do. Nothing will come out of MLA’s discussing this issue that will be of any help to anyone or any aspect of the Palestine question. If you think otherwise, please enlighten me.

  • wee buns
  • Alias

    “David might also like to note that Palestinians are a Semite people too. Thus it is unlikely a ‘Hamas sluggerite’ would also be anti-Semitic” – Jon

    This is a good example of the brainwashed using sophistic techniques to sublimate their prejudice so that it is expressed in a disguised format wherein the dupe is able to persuade both itself and nominally others that the source of its bile is other than it actually is.

    The trick in this deception is to conflate the Semitic with anti-Semitism, and then to claim that because the former category includes Arabs an well as Jews, then the bigots cannot be anti-Semitic because they are pro-Arab. It is, of course, an unwittingly self-incriminating argument because it acknowledges that they are anti-Jewish.

    However, as with all that is sophistic, it is plausible but fallacious. Anti-Semitism specifically refers to those who are anti-Jewish.

    These dupes think that their engineered hatred of Israel can be seperated from their hatred of Israelis, and that their hatred of Israelis is seperate from their hatred of Jews. And yet they are focused on hatred of Israelis with all the ignoble fervour that they formerly focused on hatred of the Jews, thinking that this engineered resurgence of their historical hatred is merely coincidental to its former manifestation. As the US State Department correctly alluded to, the historical anti-Semitism of the West has tied in nicely with the anti-Jewish practices of the East. These folks are just patsys in a game that can’t even begin to understand.

    So we see the giddy brainwashed specimums masking their rabid anti-Semitism under a veil of anti-Zionism, as if the right of the Jewish nation or indeed the Israeli nation to self-determination should be any concern of theirs or in any way dependent upon their veto or approval, and curiously expressing no such urgency in regard to the delegitimisation of any other state in the world other than the state of Israel – which, of course, is a place where these anti-Semitic bigots of the West can no longer persecute the Jews in accordance historical and biblical practices.

    So back to what anti-Semitism means. The EUMC (an EU agency): “Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities. In addition, such manifestations could also target the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for ‘why things go wrong’.”

    These bigots who mask their anti-semitism as anti-Zionism do to the state of Israel what it is no longer culturally acceptable to do directing to the Jews, i.e. demonise and delegitimise them. That pattern is an extension of the anti-semitism that Dietz Bering described as beleiving that “Jews are not only partially but totally bad by nature, that is, their bad traits are incorrigible. Because of this bad nature: (1) Jews have to be seen not as individuals but as a collective. (2) Jews remain essentially alien in the surrounding societies. (3) Jews bring disaster on their ‘host societies’ or on the whole world, they are doing it secretly, therefore the antisemites feel obliged to unmask the conspiratorial, bad Jewish character.”

    The only difference between this generation of rancid bigots and the generations that preceeded them is the level of self-deception involved in an individual basis and the level of polished public deception involved on an organised basis.

  • Munsterview

    Brian

    If we Republicans did not make the Low Intensity War and the situation in the Northern part of Ireland a matter of International concern and debate, despite Britain’s best effort to prevent it, that war would still be dragging on!

    Already because of International debate and criticism of Israel, the Egyptian / Palestinian borders are open and the some relief is coming through.

    Debate even in such an insignificant regional statelet Parliament as in the Six Counties still counts in International terms, the very fact that such a debate took place would give leverage for sympathetic Parliamentarians elsewhere to cite the Northern debate as a reason that they should have one in their own assemblies.

    Any resolutions passed would also have a status and standing Internationally, they could and would be also cited by other Parliamentarians in their own Assemblies and such resolutions would immediately be postered all over Gaza and the West Bank : all these peoples would get a lift and know that they were not alone and forgotten.

    Likewise such a resolution would be broadcasted all over Arab TV stations, Republicans interviewed etc. For this reason I do not believe that it was just the DUP bloody mindness here, I think that the phone lines to Whitehall and Westminster were humming and that the DUP were but their Masters Voice………

    There was also no doubt some useful horse trading on the issue with the DUP taking the blame in return for brownie points and a few more poker chips and IOUs for the bigger game!

    Not very edifying or moral but it is politics and how the real world works!.

  • Munsterview

    Wee Buns

    Bob also stood on the mounds of fresh bulldozed earth in Sabra camp that moved under foot and he suddenly realized that he stood on graves of people who had been buried alive after the massacre !

    Bob also told me that it was he told me one of the scariest moments of his life, any Israeli Intelligence Officer there realizing that he was a Journalist and what he had seen would have killed him!

    Not surprising then that Bob Fisk’s of the Mid East accounts are still full of passionate concern and restrained anger. Wish there were more like him.

  • Well said alias. This site is little more than a islamo-facist cherrleading instrument, populated by the usuall nationalist soap dodging suspects.

  • Munsterview

    Alias

    Will not wash…… will not wash at all !

    You can dismiss me and people like me with whatever descriptive adjectives you can avail of to suit your propaganda purposes.

    So let us see what you will do with the brave members of these same Israeli Defense Forces who risked their lives in defense of their People and Country and are still willing to so in the event of total war or where there is a threat within the 1967 borders.

    They refuse to be part of the Israeli War machine for the reasons stated.

    • We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, self-sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.

    • We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty in the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people.

    • We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides,

    • We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Occupied Territories destroy all the values that we were raised upon,

    • We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society,

    • We, who know that the Territories are not a part of Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated,

    • We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.

    • We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.

    • We hereby declare that we shall continue serving the Israel Defense Force in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.

    The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.

  • Kevin Barry

    I doubt they do albert2, however, I would stress that they don’t support collective punishment of women and children either. It’s not a black and white situation, but shades of grey as per usual.

  • Kevin Barry

    Simple question David, no what aboutery; are you for the continued collective punishment of women and children contrary to international law rather than Hamas being singled out?

    A simple yes or no will suffice

  • Kevin Barry

    Neither, but you know this already and you’re just trying to build a profile.

    The old saying about empty vessels would seemingly apply to you if looking at all of the comments you’ve made on this topic are anything to go by

  • Munsterview

    To the rest of you all fair minded people out there labeled Anti-Semitic, Crypto-Fascists or whatever; which is rich indeed given the sources that it is coming from, I have a simple suggestion, use the following sites and let fair minded Israeli Citizens speak for themselves against the this Right Wing Greek Chorus for State Fascism.

    Let us see them attempt to brand soldiers decorated for bravery and service to their country ‘Anti-Semitic’ and Anti-Israeli etc.

    I would respectfully urge all of reasonable opinion to do this, if not the view may be propagated by default that these politically illiterate right-wing clowns are actually speaking for and articulating the views of the Israeli Peoples as a whole.

    As can be seen they most definitely do not, they speak for the same right wing intolerant and bigoted sections as they do here. Admittedly this Right-Wing Lunacy has more than 3.9% support, much, much more but it is far from representing the views of the left and middle ground, which is rapidly gaining ground.

    For sources google………. ‘Israeli Defense Forces + Refusal to serve’…….. And select your own comments and points from the hundreds of listed sites. These are some that were recommended to me of the listed sites listed.

    Mossad Number 2’s Daughter Refuses IDF Service | Tikun Olam-תקון …

    Why Every Jewish Soldier Should Refuse

    Why Every Jewish Soldier Should Refuse

    We refuse to “dominate, expel, starve and humiliate the ..
    The Shministim Letter 2009-2010: Refusing To Serve The Occupation
    6 Oct 2009 … Refusing to serve the occupation! We are Israeli teenagers who refuse to ….. The Israeli Army is not a “defence force”, but an aggressive …
    http://www.shministim.com/ – Cached – Similar

    We cannot silence this Greek Chorus for Israeli wrong doing even if was compatible with free debate. What we can do is show their propositions and their self congratulating exchanges as facile as their proponents!

  • Kevin Barry

    Agreed Jon

  • Jon

    Alias – I didn’t initiate the use of the term anti-semitism in this thread, but if you’re going to use it you should realise that it is, and always has been, a misnomer when applied to specifically anti-Jewish prejudice. It refers to a prejudice towards any Semitic people, that it has exemplified by prejudice towards Judaism does not change the meaning of the term. This is the context in which I was correcting David.

    Besides that, you’ve formed an entire argument on a very weak presumption that those arguing against you are ‘brainwashed’ and ‘anti-Zionist’. You might do well to try and take on board some of their actual concerns and argue against those if you disagree, rather than spout the usual catch-all nonsense of branding everyone an ‘anti-Semite’.

    Regardless of your views on whether the opinions of Westerners affect the right of the Israeli people to ‘self-determination’, and you might want to read up on the history of the state to see how the Governments we elect have had a very crucial role in Israel’s existence today, five Irish people have just been kidnapped into Israel and that makes it a very relevant issue for Irish people in my opinion.

    Alias says:
    7 June 2010 at 10:36 pm

    “David might also like to note that Palestinians are a Semite people too. Thus it is unlikely a ‘Hamas sluggerite’ would also be anti-Semitic” – Jon

    This is a good example of the brainwashed using sophistic techniques to sublimate their prejudice so that it is expressed in a disguised format wherein the dupe is able to persuade both itself and nominally others that the source of its bile is other than it actually is.

    The trick in this deception is to conflate the Semitic with anti-Semitism, and then to claim that because the former category includes Arabs an well as Jews, then the bigots cannot be anti-Semitic because they are pro-Arab. It is, of course, an unwittingly self-incriminating argument because it acknowledges that they are anti-Jewish.

    However, as with all that is sophistic, it is plausible but fallacious. Anti-Semitism specifically refers to those who are anti-Jewish.

    These dupes think that their engineered hatred of Israel can be seperated from their hatred of Israelis, and that their hatred of Israelis is seperate from their hatred of Jews. And yet they are focused on hatred of Israelis with all the ignoble fervour that they formerly focused on hatred of the Jews, thinking that this engineered resurgence of their historical hatred is merely coincidental to its former manifestation. As the US State Department correctly alluded to, the historical anti-Semitism of the West has tied in nicely with the anti-Jewish practices of the East. These folks are just patsys in a game that can’t even begin to understand.

    So we see the giddy brainwashed specimums masking their rabid anti-Semitism under a veil of anti-Zionism, as if the right of the Jewish nation or indeed the Israeli nation to self-determination should be any concern of theirs or in any way dependent upon their veto or approval, and curiously expressing no such urgency in regard to the delegitimisation of any other state in the world other than the state of Israel – which, of course, is a place where these anti-Semitic bigots of the West can no longer persecute the Jews in accordance historical and biblical practices.

    So back to what anti-Semitism means. The EUMC (an EU agency): “Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities. In addition, such manifestations could also target the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for ‘why things go wrong’.”

    These bigots who mask their anti-semitism as anti-Zionism do to the state of Israel what it is no longer culturally acceptable to do directing to the Jews, i.e. demonise and delegitimise them. That pattern is an extension of the anti-semitism that Dietz Bering described as beleiving that “Jews are not only partially but totally bad by nature, that is, their bad traits are incorrigible. Because of this bad nature: (1) Jews have to be seen not as individuals but as a collective. (2) Jews remain essentially alien in the surrounding societies. (3) Jews bring disaster on their ‘host societies’ or on the whole world, they are doing it secretly, therefore the antisemites feel obliged to unmask the conspiratorial, bad Jewish character.”

    The only difference between this generation of rancid bigots and the generations that preceeded them is the level of self-deception involved in an individual basis and the level of polished public deception involved on an organised basis.

  • Just to say that the “David Vance” who posted at 12.12am is not me. I trust the moderator will remove.

  • Michael

    He does a good you though, gotta give him that.

  • Munsterview

    Will the real David Vance please stand up ?

    This should be very easy to sort out : I would request the moderator to also ‘out’ whoever pulled this stunt, David has a right to know and so do every other poster on slugger.

    Debates such as this are monitored by all sorts of hidden ‘watchers’ who seldom reveal their hand. They are well organized, just a phone call or two or em is enough to set off the usual ‘Israel can do no wrong Greek chorus’ who are always primed and ready to go anyway.

    Was it just a complete coincidence that this diversion should follow my comment to ‘wee buns’ regarding the Sabra Camp and other massacres of that period under the direction of Israeli Intelligence Forces ? I make a point at every public meeting that Robert Fisk addresses that I am at of asking him for an update on the prospect of those responsible being held accountable and he usually briefly recounts what happened and how the real instigators evaded International Justice.

    The Israeli Intelligence Personnel that instigated the Refugee Camp Massacres of this period are no different to the Nazi War Criminals that they so diligently hunt down all over the world.

    I also note that since my postings over twelve hours ago of Israeli Defense Forces and Citizens opinions supporting my argument that the Right Wing Greek Chorus of accusations of Anti-Semitism and Anti-Jewish have not come back.

    Simple really; remove the unfounded sectarian labeling additives from their arsenal and they have no argument; at least none that they can take up with Israeli Citizens living in Israel without exposing the political bankruptcy of their own stands when forced to deal solely with the issues raised on their own merits.

    I will be interested, very interested indeed to see the response of David Vance, turgon, Alias et al. to the true Israeli Citizens views posted in the hundreds of sites referred to in my postings of last night.

    Meanwhile this is my response to ‘wee buns’ that seems to have brought the diversion and great silence ( re posted for convenience as it is overleaf ).

    Wee Buns

    Bob also stood on the mounds of fresh bulldozed earth in Sabra camp that moved under foot and he suddenly realized that he stood on graves of people who had been buried alive after the massacre !

    Bob also told me that it was he told me one of the scariest moments of his life, any Israeli Intelligence Officer there realizing that he was a Journalist and what he had seen would have killed him!

    Not surprising then that Bob Fisk’s of the Mid East accounts are still full of passionate concern and restrained anger. Wish there were more like him.

  • Munsterview

    Thanks for that. I know we may not agree but it becomes impossible to debate if you cannot bes sure WHO you are talking to.

    Michael,

    I am sure it appeals to your inner prejudice.

  • Munsterview

    Now, now Mr Vance, exercise a little caution if you please, I have quite enough faults laid at my door without being the cause of a rift between Turgon and yourself over a polite exchange and the fact that you actually thanked a Republican !

    This could end in real engagement, for goodness sake man restrain yourself, we all need our bogey men on either side!.

  • Brian

    Fair enough MV.

  • Brian

    “Already because of International debate and criticism of Israel, the Egyptian / Palestinian borders are open and the some relief is coming through.”

    Though to be accurate, I don’t think this issue was ever about aid. It was about ending the blockade, which they partially succeeded in doing indirectly.

    Hamas has refused the aid from the flotilla ships, which is now sitting in an Israeli warehouse.

  • Brian

    The humanitarian situation in Gaza:

    http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http://www.steffen-jensen.dk/dan/blogartikler/134–mere-mangel-pa-arbejde-end-pa-mad/&sl=da&tl=en

    (Excuse the long link, it’s a google translation from a Danish reporter Steffen Jensen who lives and works in the Middle East and was just in Gaza. From his report)

    “Judging from the media, the situation in Gaza is desperate, everything is about to collapse, and the community is on the brink or at the level of a third world country.
    The Palestinian community’s immediate downfall has been prophesied numerous times in the media. People have nothing to eat, we sometimes know. The UN must from time to time to stop food distribution, either because their stocks are running low, or because they can not get diesel for their trucks, and therefore can not carry food in. And so on.

    Yesterday I drove into the Gaza Strip. I don’t do this as often as before [because it takes much longer to get through the checkpoints now.]

    This time, I had expected to see real suffering, because with all the fuss in recent days about bringing tons of humanitarian relief in – so much that people actually sacrificed their lives for it – there certainly had to really be a deep, desperate situation in the Gaza Strip. No food. Long queues in front of UN food stocks. Hungry children with food bowls.

    But this was not the picture that greeted me.

    When I yesterday morning drove through Gaza City, I was immediately surprised that there are almost as many traffic jams as there always has been. Is there not a shortage of fuel? Apparently not. Gasoline is not even rationed.

    Many shops were closed yesterday, Hamas has declared a general strike in protest against Israel’s brutal and deadly attack on the Turkish flotilla with pro-Palestinian activists on board. So it was difficult to estimate how many products were on the shelves. Therefore I went over to the Shati refugee camp, also known as Beach Camp. Here is one of Gaza’s many vegetable markets that sell much more than just fruits and vegetables.

    I will not say whether, in better times has been a larger product range than there was yesterday. But there was certainly no shortage of vegetables, fruits or any other ordinary, basic foods. Tomatoes, cucumbers, corn, watermelons, potatoes – mountains of these items in the many stalls.”

  • Brian

    The whole article is good, I suggest you check it out. He ends by exhorting the West to talk to Hamas and put more pressure on Israel. His concluding paragraphs.

    But the lack of real work and a genuine Palestinian economic development, as their brethren in the West Bank currently enjoys with help from the West, it could make much the situation in the Gaza Strip. And this economic development must come from within.There will never again be a situation where up to 150,000 workers from the Gaza Strip can take into Israel every day, and bring money back to help the local economy. (Someone actually once Israel was also criticized for). It gave a wave of terrorism and suicide bombings in the 90s and beginning of 2000 year end.

    But to get such an economic development with help from the West in time it will require Israeli cooperation. And it means that the Hamas government may soften its total and unflinching refusal to negotiate with Israel or even recognizing its right to exist. And you actually feel that – although there is a very long way to go – are trends in some circles of Hamas, to show greater flexibility.

    To cultivate this wing of the Islamists, it is probably also necessary that we in the West bleed up our total rejection of having contacts with Hamas. Even our own Danish diplomats in the region have in common with other EU diplomats have no contacts with Hamas. A dialogue is necessary.

    Are there not some sort of relaxation in time, so there is a danger that the more militant and fanatical jihadist groups that are already emerging in the Gaza Strip, begins to challenge Hamas on the flank and forcing the organization to abandon all possibilities of political compromises, and instead protect its Islamist credentials. “

  • Next time In Gaza, why not visit here? Super menu…I bet Mairead Corrigan would love it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_puiuvWHQ4I

  • Munsterview

    Back to business as usual!

    I can easily remember when Mairead was known in our circles as ‘Mairead-New Car-Again’. I can also recall how eagerly her every utterance against Republicans was seized on, quoted by certain quarters in the Northern part of Ireland and repackager for the World Media by Downing St and Whitehall spin merchants.

    Nothing too much wrong about the same Mairead to some quarters in the Northern part of Ireland back then, Mairead would probably maintain that her preoccupations for Peace and Justice have not changed.

    Now over eighteen hours since I posted that references for those hundreds of Jewish sites dissenting from the Israeli State view and telling it like it is. Any takers for the views of the IDF soldiers that were in Gaza, not for a flying one day visit but for months at the time in successive tours of duty and knew the conditions there first hand, back streets and ghettos, from constant personal experience ?

    Any takers ?

  • Michael

    Hehe
    My inner prejudice?
    I’m not the one that hates darkies
    Sorry I meant muslims

  • Brian

    If so many of them feel that way, why don’t they vote in different leaders

  • johno

    Is that david Vance from that no-mark party that got humilited in the recent election?

  • Munsterview

    Brian

    A little more precision in the query would possibly make for more precise response also.

    By ‘them’ I take it that you mean all those Israelis who disagree with the current Israeli State in its policy towards the Palestinian Peoples?

    Here in the South how many of Fianna Failure supporters agree with Nama, Health Care policies , etc., yet a significant core vote representing a fifth of the voting remains. Come actual elections it will be much higher than this.

    There are many complex reasons why People vote as they do : I was with a group of Irish and Uk reporters during the H Blocks Hunger Strikes, off the record I predicted Southern Election success also, I was supported by the Irish side until the group split up at which stage with the UK people gone they tore stripes off me for having given hostages to fortune.

    The results came in; our finger on the public pulse was correct.

    There is a very complex situation in Israel; the hysterical Right Wing dominate the media and talk up the threat and the under siege mentality that we were all so farmilar with on this island to hold on to corrupt power.

    These dissenting concerned Citizen Soldiers and other Citizens are dubbed State Traitors, Terrorist facilitators, bombers friends, etc. However they are slowly but surely gaining ground and reaching a wider audience.

    They are now there or there abouts where John Hume was at when he undertook the Hume/Adams talks. Remember the outcry these talks produced among the forces that wanted to preserve the status quo, who would cheerfully have lived with a continuing war situation rather than make room for Sinn Fein in power.

    Just as the Sky did not fall when Sinn Fein’s Martin McGuiness and other Sinn Fein Ministers took a join Governmental Control, neither will it when the Palestinians take real power over their own lives and state.

    This was the same man that Majors asked Albert Reynols to put in jail as it would help with the optics for the Unionists. Albert’s reply,……… no problem,…….. and Martin was arrested and got nine months ( if memory serves me right) in Portlaois Prison.

    That is how little the respect or value both parties put on Martin, he was jailed for optics then, what is his standing now Nationally and Internationally?

    Martin has since more than proved his worth, he was no different then at the time of his Jailing, yet this how he was treated then, that is how his Palestinian equivalents are treated now!

    There are Israeli peace activists who visit and interface with the Palestinian People and are welcome. The situation is not impossible or totally bleak. Despite all that has happened there are still people of goodwill on both sides that want a solution. Most Arabic peoples would accept n Israeli State with the 1967 borders.

    If the Israeli State were to withdraw to these borders and leave their infrastructure behind intact as a gesture of good will and a new start to Israeli relations with her neighbors, much else could be quickly done. A fully functioning infrastructure in the Palestinian side would absorb much of the personnel and energy now involved in understandable militancy.

    The Jews should look to their own history; when their own Eastern European Ghettos were constricted and crushed with every pervasion that Nazism could devise, they still rose, fought inside, and some broke out and fought outside also. That is not a tribute to Jews per se, it is rather a tribute to the universal, indomitable aspects of humanity it self.

    Can they expect other peoples to do less in the face of the same oppression ?

  • Michael

    I wouldn’t say coming last out of all the pro-union candidates in somewhere like east belfast is humiliating.

    It’s more a…
    return of the footnote.

  • Munsterview

    Michael

    David Vance stood for election, he got 5.4% of the vote which was 1.5% over the TUV average.

    David Vance also can now say that he put a proposition before the East Belfast electorate and 1,856 voted for him.

    Because of that mandate, David Vance can now say with certainty that he writes here for one thousand, eight hundred and fifty six people. He did not get elected, granted, but while he articulates a view that, in general, is in keeping with the views that he requested endorsement for, then he has some authority for his views.

    When I read something that speaks for over 1,8000 people then I pay some attention to it and the views that it express.

    That do not mean that in another posting I will not intrepid these same figures in far less flattering light to Dave Vance, to advance an argument or proposition of my own; that is how the game of politics is played.

    I respectfully suggest that you too play the ball and not the man, the politics and not the person.

  • Michael

    “Because of that mandate, David Vance can now say with certainty that he writes here for one thousand, eight hundred and fifty six people.”

    Gibberish

    Because someone got 1856 votes, he speaks for those 1856 on this subject? Do the 1856 people like his sink the flotilla icon on twitter, do 1856 people support his statement yesterday hoping that the Israeli’s sink the Rachel Corrie? Does he check with them using some sort of sub-dermal neural net?

    I fail to see how I’m ‘playing the man’ by pointing out his much vaunted return to politics resulted in him coming last out all the pro-union candidates in a unionist heartland.

    Like I said, return of the footnote, but hey, reading the odd political website from time to time is a far cry from starfucking politicians.
    But i guess that’s what distinguishes the average voter like me from political anoraks 😉

  • Munsterview

    Michael

    Gibberish ? please re read exactly what I have written…

    “……He did not get elected, granted, but while he articulates a view that, in general, is in keeping with the views that he requested endorsement for, then he has some authority for his views…..”

    ….. a view that in general…etc. David Vance did not obviously ask for, or get a mandate from his electorate to advocate sinking the Rachel Corrie. Very well, then by all means, then take him on on that particular issue or indeed on any other issues and by all means use the East Belfast election figures or anything else to back up your argument.

    Citing those figures in isolation just to coat trail or rub David Vance’s nose in it is not of much use to anyone or anything bar providing passing entertainment for like minded individuals.

  • Michael

    “Gibberish ? please re read exactly what I have written…”

    I have, then I posted above.
    What can I say, if I believe its gibberish that you argue he speaks for 1800 people here on a specific international subject because he once got 1800 votes thanks to parochial subjects such as slutty wives, back gardens and wether or not the incubant is Luddy reincarnated I’ll tell you it’s gibberish.

    Sorry, I don’t do starfucking.

  • Michael,

    I guess given that Conal McDevitt has not yet managed to achieve one vote, you will now confirm he should not be speaking on anything?

    Munsterview

    Thanks for your intelligent contribution and sorry if by me saying that it causes you hassle from some here.

    I think people should be entitled to comment on whatever they want – so long as it is civilised.

  • Munsterview

    Mr Vance Sir

    I must warn you that as of now your life is at hazard !

    1 ) You, shortly I fear, are about to be boarded by some gentlemen in Naval Uniform who will request that you yield them your sword and that you accompany them to the Flagship.

    2) Once aboard there you will be taken to the Admirals Cabin where you will find three other Gentlemen also in Naval Uniform in Naval uniform and of Senoir Rank seated behind a polished table, you will be invited to take a chair facing them and your sword will be placed lengthwise across the table

    3) The charges Sir will be consorting with the enemy in times of war : Admirals that have just suffered a rout, you will unfortunately find Sir are not in a very reasonable frame of mind.

    4) Do not sir for a moment be lulled into any false sense of security just because all is enacted as per regulation while your are in the cabin, when asked to retire I suggest you request to go on deck, there you will see some sailors under the directions of the First Mate busy arranging a hemp sheet over the yardarm…. good Sir that is for you !

    5) When you are next escorted back to the Admiral’s cabin look to your sword Sir, you will find that it will now be placed with the point facing towards you, the result was always a foregone conclusion !

    6) Die well Sir ! It is unbecoming to blame turgon and you are too noble a soul to bear a grudge. Duty Sir, he did his duty as he see it, no more to be said !

  • Michael

    “I guess given that Conal McDevitt has not yet managed to achieve one vote, you will now confirm he should not be speaking on anything?”

    I would say you’re confusing me scoffing at Munter’s view that your 1800 parochial protest votes equates to speaking for 1800 people on a specific international incident as risible starfucking, with me somehow suggesting you shouldn’t speak on anything.

    By all means get it off your chest for two minutes, from now till even you get sick of the karaoke version of littlejohn.

    Btw, you honestly think calling for a boat full of civilians to be sunk is civilised commentry?
    You’re as mad as some the real antisemites on this board.

  • Michael

    Oh, you mean the Hate Flotilla full of Hamas enablers? I trust Israel continues to defend itself robustly….and no messing.

  • Michael

    hehe
    You’re like a parody of the right wing ‘commentator’, i’d swear you were a javascript function and some meta data, if I hadn’t actually seen a photo on your web site.

  • And you, Michael, are the personification of what passes for comment here on Slugger.

  • Michael

    Hehe
    Did you think you would spark an absorbing conversation with ‘go Israel!’ and your little twitter icon?

  • Jo

    I think the root of David Vance’s anger is at least partly due to the fact that though he detests homosexuals, his own daughter (on Facebook) is plainly gay and is in a same-sex relationship with a Newry girl. Must be frustrating that his preaching has proved as ineffective as his politics…

  • Munsterview

    Jo

    This is not fair comment.

    I have frequently disagreed with David Vance in slugger and I dare say that I will continue to disagree with him on most issues. However David Vance is David Vance, his child ( or children if the plural is appropriate ) are entitled to privacy and to their own lifestyle.

    Two matters immediately arise here : given the lack of tolerance of gay culture in some quarters in the North is it fair to openly identify this young female just because she happens to be David Vance’s daughter to make a point against him?

    It is not alone thoughtless and tackless in relation to the young woman concerned, you could and probably have, by identifying her like this, have set her up for harassment and interference with her basic human right to live her life inside whatever interpersonal social relationships she see fit.

    Do you have a right to do that ?

    On the second matter, I would have thought that the fact that a daughter of David Vance’s, could, given his strong views on the matter, take up such a lifestyle says more for David’s tolerance in the private sphere, than it in any way indite him in the public sphere, even if David personally may not necessarily see it like that.

    I can recall a few incidents where the daughters of some prominent politicians in the South had ‘gay ‘ lifestyles during their college years over thirty years ago. Most of the same are now married with families ! Young people will especially in a wall to wall pop culture exhorting such things from all sides explore aspects of their sexuality among other things.

    People mature into straqight, bi-sexual or gay as the case may be, people alyways have and all ways will. The only things changed is that these ‘lifestyles’ can be explored more openly than they were.

    It is both a denigration of such a young ladies personal rights and an unwarranted intrusion into her fathers private sphere, to use a personal family particular to attack this individual for attitudes in the public sphere.

    We all as parents have had to adjust to some uncomfertable choices in our childrens attidutes, all mine veer towards the politically conservative and I did absolutly nothing to have that inflicted on me in my declining years after a forty years in Radical Left politics !

    I can relate Dave in this matter……. I too wake up at night sleepless woundering where I went wrong !

  • Alias

    I wondered would Mr Vance regret posting a picture of his daughter on his site a while ago given the number of hate-filled lunatics on the Internet who would abuse her as a means of abusing him.

    Jo, for those that don’t know her antics, has a history of obsessive stalking of Bloggers. She drove United Irelander to despair when she locked her poisonous and disturbed mind onto obsession with him a couple of years back.

  • pippakin

    We all, well, most of us, have family, we may in some cases be their keepers but we are not their masters. Son or daughter they grow up and move on. The lives they lead and the partners they choose are their own. It is wrong to use children or relatives as weapons. I hope this snide little comment has now ‘gone away’ for good.

  • Munsterview

    Yeah man…..tell me about it !

  • Michael

    It would be ackward for a homophobe to have a gay son/daughter to say the least.

    If you believe it’s ‘learned behaviour’ then you’ll probably wonder where you went wrong, after all, you’ve probably ‘blamed the parents’ for everything you didn’t like in other’s children.

    If you didn’t want to blame yourself, the other possibility is that your son/daughter was simply ‘born that way’, in which case you are hating someone based on their biology.

    Or you could delude yourself into thinking it’s all Lady Gaga’s fault or whatever and have a wee pray to the old testament god.