Convery for Lord Mayor? Kyle as Deputy?

So it is coming round to our eighth birthday with the annual race for Lord Mayor of Belfast (we came in when the first Sinn Fein councillor was successfully elected), it seems Pat Convery is hotly tipped for the top post. There are whispers that one prominent UUP councillor is canvassing for the support of Dr John Kyle of the PUP as Deputy Mayor. It remains to be seen how much political capital Kyle can realistically call in given the proximity of the actions of the Shankill UVF in the run up to last weekend.

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  • White Horse

    What about Eastwood for mayor in Derry, Mick?

  • Pat Convery is confirmed as the new Lord Mayor.

  • The idea of Kyle being deputy Lord Mayor is particularly disappointing. Kyle has never been elected and became a councillor on the death of David Ervine.

    I must confess to finding it amazing that Kyle, a doctor and a man who claims his “motivation springs from a strong Christian commitment and a desire to see communities damaged by conflict and deprivation transformed and renewed.” (from the PUP / UVF website) has anything to do with the PUP.

    That Kyle as a doctor supports and is a cheerleader for the loyalist drug dealers, pimps, thieves and murders who blight the area he serves as a doctor (Hollywood arches) is bad enough. For him to claim that his support for these murderers and thugs comes from a “Christian commitment” beggars belief as does his statement that he wants to see transformation and renewal of his community when the people for whom he cheerleads are the main causes of conflict and deprivation.

    Rewarding this individual with the post of Deputy Lord Mayor (if it happens) is a nauseating insult to the victims of the UVF including the latest man murdered by those for whom he cheerleads.

  • Thankfully Kyle was not elected and instead William Humphrey was reelected.

  • Stephen Blacker

    Turgon

    You are a typical TUV (ed mod play the ball not the man) Give details of Dr. John Kyle being a cheerleader for the UVF.

  • chewnicked

    Classy stuff from Mr. Blacker whose charming turn of phrase merely add weight to the views of those that see the PUP as a gang of irreformable thigs and apologists for loyalist violence.

  • Stephen Blacker,
    I regard being a member of Sinn Fein as giving support to the sectarian murderous bigotry of the IRA. Just as I regard being a member of the PUP as giving support to the sectarian murderous bigotry of the UVF.

    I suppose to be fair I may loathe the PUP / UVF more. At least in no way do I have to feel that the IRA committed their foul murder campaign on my behalf. In the case of the UVF they claim to have done it on my and other unionists / Protestants behalf’s. At some level they are trying to say they did what they did for me: I reject and loathe them for that as well as for their foul crimes.

    For Kyle to support the PUP who I regard as cheerleaders for loyalist murderers is reason enough for me to loathe him. That he should know better as an educated man makes it worse. that he claims to be motivated by religious conviction is utterly nauseating.

    If Kyle is not a cheerleader what on earth is he doing with the cheerleaders for the murderers, thieves, racketeers, pimps and drug dealers.

  • Stephen Blacker

    chewnicked

    I’m sick to the back teeth of people like yourself putting down good people like DR. John Kyle. People like you prove every time that you know nothing about the PUP and what they are about. Your response to me shows that you are blinkered in your ability to talk on this issue, all you see is a murder gang and the PUP certainly are not.

  • Stephen Blacker,
    I cannot speak for chewnicked but I suspect he can see more than a murder gang. I suspect he like me can see people who terrorise the elderly and vulnerable, who sell drugs to young people, who are pimps and extortionists. I suspect he can see people who feed vampire like off the working class unionist communities they infest and then claim to protect.

    The PUP cannot condemn and indeed is in actual fact the mouth piece for these people on the rare occasions that they are not actually one and the same people.

    Thankfully the working class unionist communities on the rare occasions that they are asked (in the privacy of the polling booth) reject these individuals out of hand. I note with considerable pleasure that Kyle has never been elected and hope (with some confidence) that he will be sent packing by the electorate when they have an opportunity to pass judgement on his self proclaimed “desire to see communities damaged by conflict and deprivation transformed and renewed.”

  • Stephen Blacker

    Turgon

    I apologise for saying you were a f’#@ker, i was angry when I saw your blog because I know Dr. John Kyle and he would never support and of the above criminal acts. People in the PUP who follow the teachings of the Late David Ervine or their new leader Dawn Purvis are worth listening to. People find it easy to be cutting and pick holes in a sound bite but putting down a good man because of what i can only discribe as ignorance is hard to take.

    You could search all day to find proof of Dr. John Kyle being a cheerleader for any terrorist group and you will find nothing.

    I know that your views are your own personal opinion as I have mine and with your TUV connections and mindset you certainly will not listen to what a PUP person would say because your so blind with hate.

  • HeinzGuderian

    The pup are SCUM Sir !! And UNELECTED SCUM at that !!!

    As Turgon has already said,thankfully the Unionist community want nothing to do with these racketeers,’loyal’ to nothing but their own gain !!! Parasites on the backs of their own community.

    The Unionist People do not want pup/dup rabble rousers!! By gad Sir,I would rather vote sf than one of those self righteous,bible bashing bastards !!!

  • HeinzGuderian

    The ‘teachings of David Ervine’ ?? What,how to be an unsuccessful bomber ??

    PARASITES……one and all !!!

  • chewnicked

    Steven,
    over the years, I have personally came across a number of community activists from a PUP background. All made the right noises about building better communities free from paeramilitary influence.

    Alas over the years all have fallen by the wayside- either silenced by or intimidated by their masters in the UVF or else because they have been caught in criminal actions themselves.

    Actions speak louder than words. Until such time as the PUP can break the link with the drug-dealers and extortionists in their paramilitary wing and also deliver genuine benefits for the people in loyalist areas, then it is fair to dismiss the Party as dishonest and self-serving bluffers of the worst kind.

  • Stephen Blacker

    HeinzGuderian

    People can change and the Late David Ervine did.

  • lamhdearg

    What did our new lord mayor do during the “war”

  • Glencoppagagh

    Turgon
    “…that he claims to be motivated by religious conviction is utterly nauseating.”
    You seem such a likeable chap except when you adopt your po-faced, self-righteous rural ‘born-again’ pharisee stance. Dr Kyle might well care about the circumstances of the community in which he practises and be motivated by the sort of Christianity which would sooner offer bread to a starving man than a ‘Gospel’ tract.

  • Stephen Blacker

    Turgon

    Dawn Purvis has condemned all acts of violence and has told everyone that will listen to go to the PSNI with information about crimes.

    I would imagine that Dr. John Kyle will do better than any TUV person.

  • Stephen Blacker,
    I do not need to search all day to find proof of Kyle being a cheerleader for a terrorist group. He is a member of an organisation which provides political analysis and support to the UVF: that makes him a cheerleader.

    Tell me has Kyle come out against the UVF murders over all those years? I have not seen it. If he did oppose them what is he doing in the party of murders and their apologists?

    As to the “teachings of the later David Ervine” Ah yes the man who was a terrorist bomber who said he had not forgotten how to make bombs. Who called the UVF murdering people “returning the serve.” The same David Ervine who was friendly with Billy Hutchinson the murderer who was arrested over withholding information on the murder of Thomas Devlin.

    If Kyle is in the same party as those people and agrees with their political analysis he is a cheerleader. For him to do so and be a doctor is bizarre but for him to do so and proclaim his faith and that he is motivated by a desire to help the very people on whom the UVF prey beggars belief.

  • Stephen Blacker

    chewnicked

    You make some very good points and I can understand why you would be disillusioned. There is only so much the PUP can do. I first saw David Ervine at his conference in 2004 and he begged the guest speaker – Peter Taylor, BBC Investigative journalist – to look into why known loyalist drug dealers were arrested in the morning and let out in the afternoon and selling drugs in the evening? It made me wonder what was going on?

  • Turgon, you are a massive hypocrite and so is your party. TUV members have been cheerleaders for Greysteel murderer Torrens Knight and your leader refused to take any action. He was therefore comfortable enough with the stance of Trevor Collins to allow him to remain in the party. Stephen, take no lectures from him.

  • slug

    Turgon – (a serious point in case it needs pointed out) Jesus himself kept company with those that respectable society of his time shunned – people such as tax collectors and prostitutes and various other sinners.

    Let he who is without sin cast the first stone Turgon!

  • nineteensixtyseven,
    I have repeatedly condemned that decision and do so again.

    Be very wary of who you call a hypocrite. I challenge you to find anything other than condemnation of all loyalists from me. I was condemning Knight long before that episode and I have continued to condemn him and the individual who organised the petition in his support.

    You are, I remember an SDLP supporter. As such be a little careful. Your party has a less than perfect record of standing up to terrorists. Where was your candidate here in FST in 1981 on either occasion? In addition your former leader John Hume never ired of helping drag Gerry Adams out of the holes he had dug for himself with IRA atrocities. Of course we hardly need mention the fact that Declan O’Loan is still a member of your party despite expressing a hope that your party should join up with the murderers of 2,000 people here.

  • lamhdearg

    And the same people are still doing it, But david would be spining in his grave if he could see inside the pubs on the newtownards road on a sat night, Kids as young as fourteen being sold drugs and drinking till five in the morning,All under the watchfull eyes of the men who “run the road” his ex comrades. Now can anyone tell me if convery has a history with the military wing.

  • Stephen Blacker

    Turgon,

    I never expected you to do any searching, you know it all and your thoughts are where it stops. I super TUV trate. Dr. John Kyle would condemn all crime never mind murder but saying that to a narrow minded person like yourself who obviously has no wish to except that the PUP are not the UVF or RHC, my points have lost before they begun.

  • chewnicked

    Stephen,
    There is a genuine need for a working -class party to properly represent the poorer urban loyalist areas in particular. A party made up of people from those areas and not people like David Vance parachuted in on an ego trip and with no interest in making life better for local-hard-pressed communities.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    What is interesting is why Dr Kyle would choose the PUP instead of for instance the the UUP or the Alliance Party. Presumably the reason he would give is that the PUP are to the left of the available Unionist parties?

    I suspect, that anyone like Dr Kyle who joins the PUP probably beleives that the actions of their paramilitary wing were ‘understandable’ in some way. I’m not suggesting that is not a valid position for him to hold but it is a reasonable deduction from the availalbe facts. He, like those in SF, can hardly complain when and if they are asked to justify or explain the actions of the paramilitary wing of the party they have chosen to join.

  • Glencoppagagh,
    I missed your comment. A problem with the reply system, my apologies.

    If Kyle is motivated by such laudable concerns why does he support a party composed of and supportive of the very drug dealers, thugs, pimps, murderers and extortioners who have oppressed the people of the areas where he practices?

    I would rather give people bread and indeed a gospel tract. It seems Kyle would rather pass by on the other side pretending not to notice the fact that the people for whom he pretends to care are being oppressed by the people whose company he keeps and whose views he represents.

    Stephen Blacker,
    “Dawn Purvis has condemned all acts of violence”

    Yes just like Adams “regrets” the deaths in the troubles I suppose. Tell me as leader of the PUP what action has Purvis taken against Billy Hutchinson the convicted murderer who was arrested for failing to give information to the police over the murder of Thomas Devlin?

    As to Ervine “changing” Yes he changed from being a loathsome terrorist to being a loathsome supporter of terrorism who said with pride that he had not forgotten how to be a terrorist. Tell me what action did he take against Billy Hutchinson over the latter’s with holding of evidence in Thomas Devlin’s murder?

  • Glencoppagagh,
    I missed your comment. A problem with the reply system, my apologies.

    If Kyle is motivated by such laudable concerns why does he support a party composed of and supportive of the very drug dealers, thugs, pimps, murderers and extortioners who have oppressed the people of the areas where he practices?

    I would rather give people bread and indeed a gospel tract. It seems Kyle would rather pass by on the other side pretending not to notice the fact that the people for whom he pretends to care are being oppressed by the people whose company he keeps and whose views he represents.

    Stephen Blacker,
    “Dawn Purvis has condemned all acts of violence”

    Yes just like Adams “regrets” the deaths in the troubles I suppose. Tell me as leader of the PUP what action has Purvis taken against Billy Hutchinson the convicted murderer who was arrested for failing to give information to the police over the murder of Thomas Devlin?

    As to Ervine “changing” Yes he changed from being a loathsome terrorist to being a loathsome supporter of terrorism who said with pride that he had not forgotten how to be a terrorist. Tell me what action did he take against Billy Hutchinson over the latter’s with holding of evidence in Thomas Devlin’s murder?

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit,
    I suspect you are correct. However, two additional things. Just because Kyle is educated and religious does not mean that he cannot rationalise in his own mind the murder of people as part of some “war.” It may be loathsome hypocrisy but I am sure it is possible.

    In addition as one of the better educated members of his party Kyle may have a taste for political power and rather than serve a long apprenticeship in a real party. Maybe he saw the PUP as a way of being a bigger fish in a smaller pool. Provided he could find a way to rationalise their support for murder I am sure he has more influence within the gutter of the PUP than he would have had in a proper party.

  • slug,
    I do not remember Jesus supporting murdering people. That is what Kyle is doing. I would be very in favour of him trying to help working class unionist communities. Opposing the likes of the PUP / UVF is but one way of helping such people. On the other hand supporting the PUP is supporting the oppression of the working class unionist community. The fact that the working class unionist community serially reject these criminals and their fellow travellers at the ballot box is something which should never be forgotten.

  • lamhdearg

    was billy charged with withholding? Are you and slugger happy with the naming and linking of people to crimes that they were only arrested and quized about.

  • Stephen Blacker

    Turgon

    There is just no talking to you but it is really my fault for replying to you. You really are a brilliant TUV person, blinkered, self- righteous & dogmatic, tollerance not required.

    David Ervine changed from someone who believed violence was the only to deal with our Troubles to someone who believed that there would never be a military victory for anyone and our Troubles only caused division. You are up to date on things that are nasty about your target people because I suspect that you know David Ervine had passed away before Billy H was arrested. (and you say the PUP are scum, look in the mirror)

    If Billy H is guilty of with holding information on young Thomas Devlins vile cold blooded murder he should face the rule of law. I have no doubt Dawn Purvis will except any lawful decision.

  • Turgon

    Stephen Blacker,
    Indeed Ervine was dead before Hutchinson was arrested but long after poor Thomas Devlin was murdered. In addition when Hutchinson was arrested Purvis supported him: “But I do have to question the arrest of Billy Hutchinson. If police wanted to talk to Billy about comments he made, why did they not go to Mount Vernon Community House and speak to Billy there?”

  • “If Kyle is in the same party as those people and agrees with their political analysis he is a cheerleader. ”

    So being in the same party as Trevor Collins who organised the petition and Jim Allister which gave him tacit support doesn’t reflect on you in anyway way? Or do you just hold members of other parties to different moral standards than you hold yourself?

  • i note turgon your party the TUV had a member petition for the earlyrelease of a ruthless secretarian murderer.A lagan valley TUV councillor who said publicly at a council meeting the police are the Gestapo.Your party the TUV failed to even take any action against these TUV people the very party you are member of.Are you still in the same TUV party as these two gentlemen turgon??.

  • Turgon

    Stephen Blacker,
    Sorry did not address Ervine and changing. So did Ervine pass on his knowledge of loyalist terrorists to the police? like fun he did. He changed from being a terrorist to being a cheerleader. The fact that he was semi articulate (and only semi) made him much more convincing than the rest of the muscle bound drug taking thugs he associated with. However, he had not changed in any meaningful way: as I said he did not help the police disarm the terrorists or catch the drug dealers, pimps and criminals. Indeed he routinely supported them when they got into trouble and on the rare occasions the police took proper action against them.

    Finally you still have not explained his gloating claims to have not forgotten how to make bombs.

    I remember his loathsomeness being summed up when he said that he unlike a proper decent unionist politician whom he was debating with was willing to die for Ulster.

    Of course Ervine was not willing to die for Ulster. He was willing to murder for it: there is an enormous difference. Making other people die is not the same thing as being willing to die. That made him throughout his terrorist and pseudo political life merely a thug, a pathetic mirror image of the thugs on the republican side with whom he had vastly more kinship than with the unionist population of Northern Ireland.

    Let me remind you Stephen that the IRA killed and bombed down here in Fermanagh more than almost anywhere else and the local unionist population, working, middle, whatever class had no truck with the murderers and thugs of the UVF. They wanted none of their “help” and rejected them wholesale.

    Thankfully when given the chance the working class unionists of Belfast seem to have almost equal contempt for the PUP. It is to be hoped that the next assembly and council elections will see the stain which are loyalist representatives removed from the unionist body politic.

  • Yes I would agree the pup have nearly being wiped off the map and so too have the TUV.The unionist community does not want either the PUP or the TUV

  • Turgon

    I am in the same party but wholly reject Collins’s analysis. That being the point about analysis which you just quoted.

    Howwever, yet again I unreservedly condemn Torrens Kinight as a criminal and I condemn Trevor Collins’s support for a petition to free him.

    I am not calling you a cheerleader but as a supporter (?member) of the SDLP: the party of O’Loan; you are falling by the moral standards you are setting for me.

  • Stephen Blacker

    Turgon,

    So I was correct in assuming you were just kicking The Late David Ervine again, your God loving TUV supporters will be very proud of you, no need to worry about judging people, never mind the dead.

    Someone that has been a Life Prisoner is out on licence for the rest of their life and to be arrested can have serious consequences for their liberty. The fact that Billy H could have been talked to at anytime in the Community House were he worked was why Dawn Purvis was querying the need for the arrest – nothing else.

  • Turgon

    Paul,
    That may well be the case. I may be a little sad the TUV did so badly. However, I positively glory in the hope that the PUP will be destroyed. Indeed I must admit that on the rare occasions when I voted in constituencies where the PUP (or other terrorist soup parties stood) I voted all the way down the ballot paper so as to vote for everyone except the PUP (and other soup parties) and SF.

  • Turgon

    Stepher Blacker,
    Indeed sadly Hutchinsons’s arrest did not result in the end (at least temporarily) of his licence: a pity that.

  • Turgon

    Paul,
    You are in the DUP. Where from? I hope not Armagh. That is where convicted paedophile Brian Hutchinson was made local party treasurer.

  • jim

    hes already guilty of murdering a child 16 year old micheal loughran n his older brother

  • Stephen Blacker

    Turgon,

    I am not surprised with the content of this rant, you have your way of thinking and I wont be able to plant any kind of seed to have you thinking outside your armoured plated box.

    It is good to know that the community you live did not feel it necessary to have any kind of paramilitary group, the rolling hills of Fermanagh are a million miles away from the streets of interface areas in Belfast.

    The PUP know, just like you, that there is no need or reason to have any paramilitary groups and they have worked for years to help get these groups to turn away from crime and disappear.

  • Turgon

    Stephen Blacker,
    Actually Fermanagh is only about 70 to 120 miles from Belfast; it depends on what part of the county you are in. However, loyalists like yourself often seem to have difficulties with simple facts like geography.

    The real point is that here in Fermanagh unionists were proportionally under greater threat than anywhere else and yet did not set up sectarian murder gangs to deal out the same horror to others as was dealt to them.

    To be fair of course it was actually quite similar in Belfast. The unionist population despite being often under considerable threat wanted nothing to do with the loyalist criminals. That is why they never politically supported them and frequently gave information to the police which led to their arrest. And great credit that does to the honour of working class unionist communities.

    Of course the PUP (and the rest of the soup) were different. They were and are the political mouthpieces of the loyalist terrorists and supported and excused their actions. It was long after the ceasefires when Ervine made his loathsome comments about “returning the serve” and that he was willing to die (sic) for his country or his menacing comment that he had not forgotten how to make bombs.

    Fortunately the working class Belfast unionists have a great deal more in common with the unionists of Fermanagh than they do with the PUP et al. and have serially rejected them.

    The PUP and co of course do share a great deal with one group in Northern Ireland: that is Sinn Fein and the IRA. They share with them the support of murder, drug dealing, pimping, extortion and indeed the murder of working class unionists. Yes indeed Stephen your lot do have a great deal in common with republicans.

  • Stephen Blacker

    Turgon,

    Here is me thinking you were in Scotland? Of course I must be a vile scumbag, there you go with your narrow mindedness again. Again you only read what suits you and ignore the rest. Glad you have no UVF/RHC/UDA/UFF/OV/UR/3rd Force to deal with, just what the PUP want. Does that mean you have something in common with the PUP?

    Why would people vote for a party that challenges mindsets and talks to the “Enemy” when they have the safe DUP/UUP and dont have to think outside their box. Saying that, with you being a TUV supporter you know the DUP/UUP have put on some of the clothes that the PUP made 30+ years ago.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Turgon,

    “The unionist population despite being often under considerable threat wanted nothing to do with the loyalist criminals”

    I remember reading somewhere that in some loyalist estates almost all males of ‘fighting age’ were members of the UDA and I think that for example during the Ulster Workers strike politicans like Wee Reggie and Trimble, were declaring they were ready to fight for Ulster*, and giving considerable political cover (if not direct support) to the paramilitaries. After thar period, I think in general, mainstream Unionist politicians moved way from incitement/support for violence. I’m not sure that the likes of Wee Reggie et al would have a clear conscience.

    At the last PUP confernence Dawn Purvis came out with what I think was the political quote of the year (even if you dont agree with it) when she spoke of Unionist leaders as “rabble-rousing politicians threatening to fight to the last drop of everyone else’s blood”

    *Loyalists fighting for Ulster generally meant attacking local Nationalists and driving out of their homes or worse.

  • Turgon

    Stephen Blacker,
    Indeed “Why would people vote for a party that challenges mindsets”

    Very few do vote PUP. I suspect that is because they do not recognise the PUP as the same as your fantasy. They see them as the mouth pieces for the drug dealers, pimps, extortioners and murderers. For some odd reason that is the general view: I suspect because the party was set up by said criminals, seems to contain a disproportionate number of them and their supporters and seems most dedicated to helping those criminals rather than the working class communities the criminals victimise.

  • Turgon

    Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit,
    Certainly Ervine seemed keen of fighting to the last drop of other people’s blood. Hutchinson took that to its logical and utterly immoral conclusion by murdering a teenager.

  • Stephen Blacker

    Turgon,

    Time and time again you show yourself up for having no knowledge of what the PUP are and you just see UVF when you think of them. I am sure you turn off the tv when a PUP person comes on or you dont listen to what is being said. Countless times Dawn Purvis speaks out about crime of any sort but you dont allow yourself to hear it.

    the PUP have been a godsend for the press because they needed a balancing act when they bashed the Shinners & IRA and in came the PUP/UVF/RHC. That has been very successful and has stuck. What is the since of talking to someone that already agrees with you when the people you should talk to are killing people?

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Turgon,

    I’m not sure you addressed the point about mainstream Unionist ambivalance/support for violence – who on earth were Wee Reggie and Trimble and the other Vanguard people going to fight? They stood shoulder to shoulder with the paramiitaries who supplied the muscle to close down Ulster and the same paramilitiaries had been involved in wholsesale attacks and killings in Nationalist areas.

    If there is to be a fair appaisal of support for loyalist violence I think that those associated with Ulster Workers strike and Vanguard are going to have quite a bit of explaining to do.

    Dont you agree?

  • Stephen Blacker

    ITwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit,

    That is a terrible thing to say. You are implying that Jim Allister was involved too because he joined the DUP in 1971. Does that mean he could have flirted with the unclean?

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    I dont know about Jim Allister or if he was involved in Vanguard or the Ulster Workers strike, but if he was, then he effectively cohabited the barricaeds with loyalist paramilitiaries and there is strong case to answer against him.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Turgon,

    you have me going now…

    I think the Ulster Workers strike was really a threat to the British government that loyalists would effectively start a civil war if they did not get their way – they could hardly fight the British army to stay British? Many mainstream Unionists including Trimble in a recent interview justify their right to ‘fight’ at this time and I dont really think the implications of this threat have been fully explored.

    It is a truly horrible thought for Unionism, but certainly plausible that the only reason Ulster remains under British control is that the British feared that Unioinists would simply murder as many Catholics as they could if they dared to leave. It is also arguable that Trimble and Wee Reggie were part of a movement that very forcefully reminded the British government of this horrible reality.

  • I’m not setting you any moral standards, Turgon. It is you who hold the criteria of guilt by association, not me. I am not questioning your morality but your consistency in applying your own criteria.

  • Stephen Blacker,
    You admitted in response to chewnicked that PUP representatives who seem initially reasonable end up being sidelined or else found to actually be criminals. Then you say it is all the media’s fault that people see the PUP as a pack of loyalist criminals. A bit of a contradiction there and one from your own keyboard.

    The reality is that your party is the mouth piece of loyalist terrorists and by your own admission many of their representatives (usually not elected as so few get elected) end up being not mouth pieces for but actual criminals.

  • Cushy Glenn

    where is this faraway place called Belfast, of which most of us know nothing, and care even less…..?

  • No turgon I am not in the DUP so yet again you are wrong.As you usually are I see you are now stooping very low with your insults.Whats up you now ashamed of being in the dinasaur TUV

  • I have done the same turgon I hate the PUP so we both agree.I also despise your party TUV who offer us nothing.

  • turgon the fact is neither the PUP or TUV offer the unionist community of which I also come from anything.GO AWAY AND LEAVE US ALONE

  • Rory Carr

    Turgon, with just minimal editing the second paragraph of your comments at 9.39 p.m. on 1 June above could read like this:

    In addition as one of the better educated members of his party [Turgon] may have a taste for political power and rather than serve a long apprenticeship in a real party. Maybe he saw the [TUV] as a way of being a bigger fish in a smaller pool. Provided he could find a way to rationalise their support for murder[ers] (Torrens Knight) I am sure he has more influence within the gutter of the [TUV] than he would have had in a proper party.

    See! Anyone can write that sort of rubbish to apply to anyone else but we must be careful of what we reveal of ourselves through Freudian slippage when we do.

  • Rory,
    With no editing at all we can call you a supporter of murder. It is appropriate for you to support loyalist murderers since you also support republican murderers. At least you are consistent in your support for terrorism.

  • John East Belfast

    I have known Dr Kyle on and off personally over nearly 30 years and all I can say is a truer Christian gent you will be hard to find – humility, kindness and compassion for other people’s needs

    I have never had opportunity to ask him why he chose the PUP but I would have little doubt believing that it where he thought he could be of best SERVICE – which is his true motivation.

    I also believe he has a strong concern for the East Belfast working class and probably feels that they are largely without a voice.

    Sometimes I think the man brings more to the Party than it takes from him and I know him long enough to trust that his judgement and motivations are honourable

  • I hope we can get this thread back on track instead of talking about the PUP/UVF

  • Rory Carr

    Your comments, Turgon only serve to illustrate just how much your own words stung when redirected at yourself.

    I must humbly confess that such support as I may have given to Republican violence cannot in any way be measured against your own unstinting support for murder on a mass scale as perpetrated by your own great colonial heroes. In the admiration for murder stakes you certainly take the prize, your team win out every time in that league.

  • willis

    JEB

    Absolutely agree with you about John. I must admit that I have enjoyed many of Turgon’s posts in the past but this has been exceptionally personal and bitter.

    Turgon

    Have you ever spoken to Dr John Kyle or are you basing your attack on what you believe he represents?

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    JEB,

    “I have never had opportunity to ask him why he chose the PUP but I would have little doubt believing that it where he thought he could be of best SERVICE – which is his true motivation.”

    Well perhaps, but just like I dont think it is likely that somone would join SF unless they in some way understood/sympathised with the violence of the IRA likewise it seems unlikely someone would join the PUP unless they had a similar view to UVF violence. It seems strange Dr Kyle has not expained this after all it is the assumtion that most people (reasonably) would come to.

    Someone from Slugger should pop the question.

  • Jean Meslier

    Slightly off the thread here. But I wonder can you settle a small debate for me Turgon.
    Are you a creationist?

  • Looking through the Window

    Turgon, you and SammyMcnally are far too personally attacking someone who I know to be a good, principled man who never has and never would sanction the murders committed by the UVF.
    As I said I have known John personally for many years and Turgon it may interest you to know that he was not living in NI for many years of the Troubles. I have heard him talk about why he chose to join the PUP despite its paramilitary connections, and the reason he gave was to try and work from within the party to turn it away from any links with violence- which he condemned.

    He explicitly stated that there were those within the PUP who were ‘in the know’ about specific links with the UVF, and those who were not- he said that he was in this second group.

    He is no cheerleader for murderers and maybe you should consider what you say before personally insulting someone you appear to know very little about. As a relatively new follower of Slugger I am glad to say that is the first off-putting post I have come across.
    Congratulations Turgon, keep the libel to yourself. And Sammy apologies if you get caught in the crossfire.

  • lamhdearg

    Good luck with that paul, i tried twice yesterday with the question ” what did our new lord mayor do during the war”.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Looking through the Window,

    “principled man who never has and never would sanction the murders committed by the UVF”

    I think it unlikely that someone would join a party which is directly linked and has/had some joint membership with the UVF if they did not in some way understand/sympathise with the UVF campaign – this is not a personal point against the good doctor but a general point about those who join political parties e.g. SF that have, within the liftime of the leaders of the party, an association with violence.

    p.s. I enjoy a bit of crossfire.

  • Looking through the Window

    Well Sammy you make a good point but I would have some reservations about applying that rule to all and sundry. As you say SF have had an association with violence, and these stats say 25.5% (BBC) of those who voted in NI this past election voted for SF.
    I wouldn’t say these over 170 000 all endorse the PIRA’s murders.
    Also what of the UUs and DUPs? Certainly their connections with the strikes, with the Order, with the OV/3rd Force and many more make them all liable to be called ‘cheerleaders’ etc etc. Won’t venture onto the SDLP as i’d be on uncertain ground.
    But my point is that whilst the party has had an association with violence, I believe people can join recognising that there has been a violent past and determined to change that, not giving in to any threatened resurgences etc etc. After all Christianity is all about forgiveness, ‘the God of the second chance’ and working with people who are far from perfect- whilst not being one of them in the sense of approving their past actions.

  • Looking through the Window

    Working class unionists didn’t exactly embrace the TUV either this May did they?
    You seem to have the good people of East Belfast pigeon holed nicely- they’re either pimps/murderers/drug dealers or prostitutes/dead people/drug addicts.
    Take the blindfold off and find a new tune Turgon, you’re getting boring.

  • lmao no turgons not a creationist hes a member of Jim Allisters dinasaur motley crew TUV.

  • John East belfast,
    To be fair I have heard similar praise for Kyle (a couple of years ago from a Catholic doctor who was at Queens with him).

    The big problem is as It was sammy mcnall what done it says: that is that he no matter what his Christianity or his genunine goodness as a doctor, concern for the community etc. he has joined a party of cheerleaders for loyalist terrorists. This is the party which thinks the UVF and the rest of the alphabet soup campaign was reasonable. That means they support the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, Sean Graham’s bookmakers, the Rising Sun, Loughinisland etc. etc.

    Now sometimes a normal political party has a member who does something wrong but the rest are decent people. However, in the PUP it is the reverse: there seems to be the odd decent person but most are simply supporters of terrorism.

    Kyle may well be a decent person but he must be massively wilfully naive to ignore the overwhelming terrorist connections of the PUP and indeed those terrorists ongoing rule of terror in working class unionist communities: the very ones Kyle is a doctor for.

    Kyle’s position may be like that of those reasonable seeming people who join the BNP from time to time. They may be decent but their associations are so dreradful that they need to be roundly condemned for them and if that clamour makes them leave then they may have begun to understand why decent people are so opposed to their actions no matter what the motivation they have invented for themselves even if it is from good intentions.

    Finally as I said at the start, the blog was suggesting Kyle as deputy Lord Mayor. I think he as an unelected politician should not be DLM and in addition considering the UVF’s murders of Belfast’s citizens over the years (and continuing) it is also inappropriate.

    willis,
    I see your criticism but I think the above answers what I am doing. Kyle may be a decent man and he could and should show it by having nothing further to do with the PUP.

  • one question turgon we in the unionist community want our politicians to work together.Unionist unity in some form or another why dont you dinosaurs in the TUV not catch yourselves on your appalling negative politics has being rejected.

  • Turgon

    Jean Meslier,
    Off topic but I will give an answer. I am an I do not know and do not care. I think the science behind evolution whilst imperfect is much better than that behind creationism. Yes there are holes in it but that does not mean it is necessarily wrong. In addition I do not believe that it is necessary to believe in creationism to be a proper Christian. Indeed I think that a slavish insistence on belief in creationism puts people off evangelical Chistianity.

    That said I used to believe in evolution but I now feel that for me personally God wants me to believe in Creationism. I cannot explain that but it is what I believe and as such I will accpet what I feel is His will (no blinding lights voices etc. just a feeling that that is what God wants me to do / believe). Call it a test of faith or whatever you want.

    My views on the origin of the world have absolutely no effect on my day to day life and if by the Grace of God I get to heaven I will be supremely unconcerned if I discover that actually the world evolved.

    Sorry a bit long winded but you did ask.

  • ASk me this Turgon two statements in a month on your TUV national website both bitter in its tone why dont you just go away and leave us alone.We are sick tired and sore of the whole lot of you TUV motley crew.

  • Stephen Blacker

    Turgon,

    You must be recieving different posts than what I write because I never said any such thing.

  • Turgon

    Paul,
    Posts crossed.

    I think the TUV’s election was very poor. I stand by what I wrote at after it (here). Might I also suggest that my blog The DUP; a steadying ship? was not far off. You liked the blog at the time.

    I still feel that the DUP made compromises they should not have (at St. Andrews and Hillsbourough) and made promises they did not keep. I do think there is a place to say that. However, as you say the electorate rejected the TUV. One can argue about an STV election being difficult for a small party and so on but the reality was and is that we were well beaten.

    I am unsure where the TUV could / should go from here. I do think that there is more concern and dislike of the current set up than you think. However, there is also a desire for unionist unity / cooperation: a desire I also find attractive. Indeed my blogging over the election focused heavily on Rodney Connor’s campaign and I would humbly submit that many down here felt I did my bit for him.

    Going forwards I would like to see a role for an opposition in the assembly (I regard it as good for democracy) and in addition I think a simplistic unity is not going to solve all unionism’s problems: joint candidates may be an idea and a theme I am considering.

    As yet I am undecided on the way forward but I do think unionism needs dissenting voices and people who question what we are doing.

    However, I do think we all need to try to talk to one another in a more civilised fashion. I am as hard as anyone in debate and you and I have crossed swords frequently. However, I do feel that we all want the same thing (the union) and our real enemy should be republicanism. Healthy competition within unionism can be good for it. However, the infighting between TUV, UUP and DUP has wasted a vast amount of out resources and I believe is a turn off for the electorate.

    If you ever want a civilised debate I am keen for one.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Looking through the Window,

    This is where myself and Turgon will part company in this debate as I would describe myself as a SF supporter and would not describe killings by PIRA as murder, not that I supported their campaign just that I dont see it in terms of black and white and good and evil. I suspect the vast majority of SF supporters also have some ambivalence towards the IRA campaign as I suspect the good doctor does towards the UVF one.

    Turgon,

    If I have to be labelled for the above remarks I personally feel ‘apologist’ for what you would call ”terrorism” is a more suitable term than ‘cheerleader’ for ‘terrorism’.

  • Turgon

    Paul,
    I think that the TUV did very badly at the election. I stand by my comments at the time. I am as yet finally undecided as to what the TUV should do.

    I do think the DUP made some inappropriate and foolish compromises at St. Andrews and at Hillsborough. I do think that it is reasonable to call them to account for this. In addition I do think that there is a place for an opposition to the current system: I think that is good for democracy.

    I also believe that there is more anger about the DUP’s position than you think.

    However, after all that is said the TUV did very badly. One can suggest that it was in part because an STV election would have suited them better. However, the fact is that we still lost very heavily. My blog on the DUP: a steadying ship was close to the mark.

    Clearly the DUP has seen off the TUV and UUP in this election and possibly permanently.

    In addition there is an appetite for unionist unity. I do not regard it as a panacea but it would help. Maybe joint candidates is an option worth exploring. I would point out that during the election I spent considerable time helping Rodney Connnor’s campaign and I think people down here felt I did my bit wholeheartedly.

    So I am undecided as to what is the best thing. I do not think slavish pseudo unity is the way forward but I do think coooperation is very useful.

    In addition I think the tone of the campaign was poor on the unionist side. We as unionists all want the same thing (the union). Whilst some healthy competition is good the endless fighting between TUV DUP and UUP was and is destructive and a turn off for voters. All parties are guilty of that at times. I am at times and so are you.

    You know I can be extremely hard in debate and I make no apologies for that (certainly not to in debate with republicans) However, I am also up for a civilised discussion about the future if people like you are interested.

  • Looking through the Window

    Sammy
    I understand your position of armed struggle and legitimate targets- personally I don’t like going into it as it find the line far too blurry between killings by state personnel, by loyalist/republican paramilitaries.

    However Dr Kyle may well feel that in some circumstances the UVF did what they thought right in terms of defending their community even to the extent of killing others (I don’t know and don’t presume to speak for him), and I believe this position could equally be applied to the RA.

    Yet this in no way makes him a cheerleader for ‘pro state terrorism’ or even an apologist I feel. This is my issue with Turgon. The company he keeps does not define who he is, what he believes, or the job he will do for the people he represents, elected or not. And yes Turgon it will be interesting to see how that pans out when he is up for re-election.

  • Turgon

    Paul,
    I think that the TUV did do very badly at the election. I stand by my comments at that time. I am as yet finally undecided as to what the TUV should do.

    I do think the DUP made some inappropriate and foolish compromises at St. Andrews and at Hillsborough. I do think that it is reasonable to call them to account for this and to point out their mistakes. In addition I do think that there is a place for an opposition to the current system: I think that is good for democracy.

    I also believe that there is more anger in the community about the DUP’s position than you think. The European election suggests that.

    However, after all that is said the TUV did very badly. One can suggest that it was in part because an STV election would have suited them better. However, the fact is that we still lost very heavily. My blog on the DUP: a steadying ship was close to the mark.

    Clearly the DUP has seen off the TUV and UUP in this election and possibly permanently.

    In addition there is an appetite for unionist unity. I do not regard it as a panacea but it would help. I think joint candidates are an option worth exploring. I would point out that during the election I spent considerable time helping Rodney Connnor’s campaign and I think people down here felt I did my bit wholeheartedly.

    So I am undecided as to what is the best thing. I do not think slavish pseudo unity is the way forward but I do think cooperation is very useful.

    In addition I think the tone of the campaign was poor on the unionist side. We as unionists all want the same thing (the union). Whilst some healthy competition is good the endless fighting between TUV DUP and UUP was and is destructive and a turn off for voters. All parties are guilty of that at times. I am at times and so are you.

    You know I can be extremely hard in debate and I make no apologies for that (certainly not to in debate with republicans) However, I am also up for a civilised discussion about the future if people like you are interested.

  • Stephen Blacker

    Turgon,

    You are very consistant in your revulsion of anyone, no matter who, that converses with people you dont like. This kind of philosophy turns someone unclean because they talk to a person that committed a crime. It is very sad that you do this but I understand why – its a qualification necessary to join the ranks of the TUV.

    To make assumptions on someone’s character and personal integrity when you obviously do not understand or seek to understand anything about this person except for your own misguided hostility is just wrong. No doubt you will continue your venomous attacks on anyone and everyone that does not think like you especially when the TUV have announced that they have not gone away.

  • HeinzGuderian

    Indeed. If only the UUP could get their act together,we could rid ourselves of the odious,duppers and all !!!

  • HeinzGuderian

    Religion diminishes humanity,by encouraging belief in the patently absurd !!

    Science adds to the joy of being alive,with the even deeper joy of comprehension. Prof R Dawkins.

    baby jebus wanted me to be a millionaire…………….just like plan A,before the big flood……………it went tits up !!! :O(

  • Now that Dawn Purvis has resigned from the PUP is the way clear for the good doctor Kyle to become chief apologist for the UVF ?