UVF breach cease-fire?

According to the Guardian’s Henry McDonald, the man shot dead on Belfast’s Shankill Road has been “named locally as Bobby Moffat, [and] is understood to have been a member of the Red Hand Commando (RHC) terrorist group.”  The short Guardian report adds

It is believed Moffat was killed as part of an internal loyalist dispute and there was no Republican involvement.

Moffat is thought to have been in dispute with the RHC-aligned Ulster Volunteer Force.

The killing will prompt questions about the status not only of the UVF ceasefire but its claim earlier this year to have decommissioned its weapons.

Adds From a follow-up Guardian report

The Guardian has learned that Moffat was shot in the face at close range with a shotgun, a weapon that cannot be traced by ballistics checks and therefore cannot be linked to previous loyalist paramilitary shootings.

It is unclear at this stage whether the UVF’s national leadership sanctioned the killing, although it is understood that Moffat had been in dispute with leading figures in the paramilitary movement over the last few months.

, , , ,

  • joeCanuck

    So, “they” haven’t gone away, you know.

  • David Cather

    Eammon Mallie tweeted, “The man shot dead on the Shankill Road was in he forties. He has been named locally but some members of the family have yet to be informed.”

    Has the situation changed, if not is this article premature?

  • Argosjohn

    I am sure he is no loss. So many scores to settle I guess.

    A pity we had no thread on the Irish godfather caught in Spain. I had never heard of him.

  • Wendle

    Apparently the weapon used was a shotgun, point blank in the face. Presumably this was to look better in terms of decommissioning.

    Similar to Denis Donaldson’s murder where a shotgun was also used.

  • Sadly, I doubt any of “them” ever will, Joe. Power and money…

  • Mr. J

    As horrible as it sounds, I’m glad this is appears to be the result of an internal dispute, as opposed to a misguided sectarian killing.

  • lamhdearg

    Argos. i doubt his family will find his murder “no loss”, As for who will be to blame the Criminal Elements will get an airing as part of a smokescreen.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Internal dispute or not, nobody has the right to just shoot someone in broad daylight. Imagine a child seeing that.

  • jim

    do u exspect them to wait untill its dark n the kids are in bed before they shoot.get over it argos is correct hes no loss

  • Mr. J

    I agree fully CS. I had a friend who was nearby when it happened. Apparently it was pretty horrific.

    An internal dispute hopefully has less chance to grow into something more sinister than a sectarian murder does. I would not like to see further loss of life.

  • Pete Baker

    Adds From a follow-up Guardian report

    The Guardian has learned that Moffat was shot in the face at close range with a shotgun, a weapon that cannot be traced by ballistics checks and therefore cannot be linked to previous loyalist paramilitary shootings.

    It is unclear at this stage whether the UVF’s national leadership sanctioned the killing, although it is understood that Moffat had been in dispute with leading figures in the paramilitary movement over the last few months.

  • kells

    I will not be losing any sleep over his death.The UVF tried to murder my family during the war.Tried and failed,hell is to good for them.

  • joeCanuck

    It would be really interesting to know what the “dispute” was about. When gangsters elsewhere “whack” someone, it’s usually about money.

  • lamhdearg

    Guardian report, Shot in the face by shotgun, also claims shot four times, Something not quite right in those two claims, Me thinks Mcdonald is lisening to the wee drunk man in the pub again.If tv programs are to be believed ballistics can trace shotgun shot/pellets to point of manufacture/sale, but this may not help in proving who was responsible.

  • Jean Meslier

    “..It is unclear at this stage whether the UVF’s national leadership sanctioned the killing..”

    Did I just read that right?
    national leadership?

    Hacks gone completely mad.

  • John East Belfast

    kells

    “The UVF tried to murder my family during the war”

    By your logic

    What war ?
    Who were the soldiers ?
    Who were the legitimate targets ?
    Who were not legitimate targets ?

  • Battle of the Bogside

    John East Belfast

    What was our previous conflict in your opinion – cowboys and Indians?

  • John East Belfast

    BOTB

    It wasnt a war
    It was murder and mayhem orchestrated by criminal gangs on both sides of the so called divide.

    However I was simply enquiring behind the thinking of someone who uses “war” and “murder” in the same sentence ?

    If somebody believes PIRA were in a war and all their targets were legitimate then by that logic then so were the UVF ?

  • joeCanuck

    A few of the comments here are quite disgusting. No-one deserves to die like that. And, of course, no-one has the right to “pass sentence” on another, unless under proper jurisprudence.

  • lamhdearg

    joe one wonders will slugger tolerate comments such as “no loss” when (god forbid) some provo or another human being gets murdered in the street, was he even cold before i read those words.

  • jim

    were was the WAR

  • Mr Crumlin

    JEB – has there ever been a conflict/war were those not directly involved didnt bear the brunt on the violence? I think not.

    It looked like a war from my view – maybe the view was different in the suburbs.

  • jim

    wheres the local MP THE RIGHT HONORABLE G/ADAMS one of his constituintes is stiffed and not a word about it.has he visited the family yet

  • lamhdearg

    I would like to state that despite my last comment i exonerate slugger, Free speech and all that.

  • lamhdearg

    it was nice to see alex attwood make the effort.

  • paul

    30000 brits,15000 armed cops(more than afghanstan and iraq put together) no war?WISE UP

  • jim

    wheres the mp for the area

  • moysie

    JEB

    how can the words “war and “murder” not be used in the same sentence. civilians are murdered in every war.

  • Monkdewallydehonk

    Jim

    I’m no fan of GA but, given that it seems clear that this unfortunaute victim, had some RHC/UVF involvement, I doubt that GA would be welcome.

    Anyway, we could always take a look at the record of someone like McCrea – how many families of Catholic victims of “loyalist” terrorism did he visit? – I’d hazard a guess (based on his half-hearted and frequently non-existent condemnation of “loyalist” terrorism ) that the answer would be very few.

    I seem to remember Nigel Dodds visiting the family of a Catholic victim of “loyalist” terrorism and Talkback being inundated with “loyalists” criticising him.

    Like I say, I’m no GA fan and he should certainly make a statement of condemnation (he may have done so – I’m in Australia so not fully up to date). However, for obvious reasons, it is probaly highly inadvisable for him to go there.

    Your condemnation would be acceptable if you include Unionist politicians. However, it seems clear that it’s just a chance to have a kick at GA but ignoring even worse behaviour because it comes from “your side”.

    I think most rational people on this site can see through your hypocrisy easily and dismiss it for what it is.

  • padraig

    I am glad to see that Gerry A is being held to account for the boys who make no noise banging each other.

    However I also feel his role in the Bubonic Plague ,the current war in Afghanistan and the Economic Meltdown needs to also be placed under the microscope and I hope the astute observers on Slugger who have pinpointed his involvement in UVF housekeeping operations will also reflect this in subsequent posts.

    Thank you.

  • Henry94

    Voting Alliance in East Belfast and shooting people in the face in West Belfast. It looks like those people who provide political guidance to the UVF have their work cut out for them.

    I hope there is full support for the PSNI in the community as they investigate this brutal murder.

  • andnowwhat

    Well now, bearing in mind that Mc Crea refused to call Paedar Heffron by his proper name when he was attacked (he called him Peter) plus Willy standing on a platform, full smile cracking across his face with Billy Wright, one can hardly expect much from him

  • RepublicanStones

    In the face with a shotgun indicates a bit of hatred, personal, rather than business.

    Sometimes you have to question the impact all this new media has with regard to such incidents, how did his extended family first hear of the shooting one wonders.

  • John East Belfast

    Mr Crumlin

    I am not an international lawyer but justifiable violence in a war is orchestrated by established countries with borders and with a cause/reason that is recognised(not necessarily condoned) by international law.
    Or perhaps a seriously oppressed people who have risen up possibly against brutal ditcators and/or a foreign invading power.

    In nobody’s mind other than PIRAs – and odious regimes like Gadaffi or Cold War communist countries – was the cause of PIRA considered legitimate. Even the very country to which they said they were seeking to unite did not consider them legitimate and indeed just last week they were still locking them up for being a member thereof.

    As for a seriously oppressed people – once again there was no justification either – any grievances the Catholic population had were well sorted legally by the early seventies and of course the nature of the grievances were such thy never demanded violent action at any rate.

    The PIRA campaign was all about driving the British out of Ireland under circumstances against the will of the vast majority of the people of Ireland and in defiance of international treaties that PIRA didnt recognise.

    However you cant run a country where people who disagree with such treaties and laws then take up arms to over throw them.

    By that definition it was (and still is today post GFA) illegal criminality and certainly not a war.

    There was a clear alternative both in constitutional nationalism as well as in loyalism – if they wanted to “defend Ulster” militarily they could equally have joined legitimate forces that (for the overwhelming vast majority of the time) acted within the law.

    What happened on the Shankill Road last night was a brutal murder just like every other similar event that has happened in the place the last 40 years.

    You have to ask yourself what kind of society you want to live in.
    One that recognises the rule of law or one advocated by certain posters on this site that believe the victim last night had it coming or “was no loss”.

    I know the type of society I want but if we want to cement such a society in then there can be no place for calling murder anything other than what it was – now or 30 years ago.

  • who really cares if the pitbills are eating eachother again?

  • I wonder will Mr Moffats family be given an audience with the president in the white house, or maybe a documentary, book or movie ?

    Maybe they’ll be given the support of the local community with protest marches and squads of international media interviewing all in sundray, perhaps there will be calls to all those in the vicinity of the shooting to be held accountable for thier actions, after all those in Maginesses bar were all guilty by association,all of the above should apply given the similarities in this murder and that of Robert McCartney.

    Somehow I can’t see Mr Moffat’s family afforded the same publicity circus can anyone ?

  • Chris

    Mr. J do you not remember 2000, then 2005?

  • C

    Victor

    That would depend on whether anyone in the area has the balls to stand up to whichever gang carried out the attack..

  • Johno

    Padraig wrote,

    “I am glad to see that Gerry A is being held to account for the boys who make no noise banging each other.

    However I also feel his role in the Bubonic Plague ,the current war in Afghanistan and the Economic Meltdown needs to also be placed under the microscope and I hope the astute observers on Slugger who have pinpointed his involvement in UVF housekeeping operations will also reflect this in subsequent posts.

    Thank you.

    —————————————————————————-

    Spot on, P.

    What a pathetic site this has become.

    Maybe I should start a thread blaming GA for the BP oil leak.

    Pathetic, jealous bunch of nerdy geeks who utterly failed to have any impact on the election process.

    Blogosphere’s shaping and reflecting public opinion?! Don’t make me laugh, you shower of sad losers.

  • joeCanuck

    What a pathetic site this has become.

    So what are you doing here? Begone.

  • Hopping the Border

    JEB

    You fail to discriminate between cause and method. Can the cause of self-determination/sedition not be considered legitimate? (the implication being any war of independence is not legitimate).

    As for whether the catholic section of the population suffered serious oppression, surely it is for the members of that community to decide whether any treatment of them constitutes such oppression, not for others to tell them what is and what isn’t serious oppression.

    Finally, linked to the last point you say any perceived grievances did not amount to a standard necessary for violent action yet those opposed to a resolution of these grievances had no problem using violent action to suppress any moves towards resolution (i.e. Burntollet).

  • ontheroad

    Victor, this seems to already be happening, a call has come from the people fo the Shankill to boycott business that are perceived to have any links with the UVF. A protest vigil is planned for tomorrow night,

    As for the whitehouse, the international press and a movie, that is up to people who do not live on the road.

  • moysie

    the 2 murders have nothing in common. whats your point?

  • Clearly Mr Moffat doesn’t carry the same political currency as Mr McCartney, the silence of the established media is appalling as is the silence of all those political parties who screamed the place down after Robert McCartneys murder, Mr Moffats death has been resigned to the back pages of the history books another statistic who’s life means little to the political pariahs and media piranha’s within the north. Shame on them all !

  • EyeontheNorth

    Victor,
    The difference is that Moffett was a paramilitary murdered by fellow paramilitaries. McCartney was an innocent civilian murdered by paramilitaries who thought they could run the place and kill at will. A brave familiy stood up to them and deserved the publicity for their efforts.
    Like a previous poster said, someone needs to have the balls to speak out against gangsters on the Shankill. It clearly isn’t going to be you. And what ‘silence’ of the media? The shooting only happened a day ago, and as far as I can see, it’s all over the front pages. I smell sectarian shit-stirring from your good self old fruit!

  • chewnicked

    McCartney was killed following a row in a bar initiated by his friend..
    Moffatt was shot dead in a street.
    McCartney’s attackers sought to cover their tracks as no doubt did those who shot their erstwhile fellow terrorist on the Shankiill
    Was the degree of premeditation the same in each case?
    Has the media and political outrage to the crimes been the same?
    If not, why not?

  • RepublicanStones

    Didn’t Moffet serve a sentence? Are ex-convicts not considered citizens once they are paroled?

  • eyeonthenorth,

    I fully resent your accusation of “sectarian shit-stirring” how on earth you can accuse me of such is beyond my comprehension, I would ask you to consider your comment and withdraw it.

    Both men were murdered because they alledgedly had a fight with senior members of a paramilitary organisation, Mr Moffat was as much an innocent man as Mr McCartney in that neither deserved the fate bestowed upon them. It seems that Mr McCartneys life was much more precious though given the
    publicity, media and political circus who all wanted a piece of the action, Mr Moffat unfortunately (just like thousands of others) has not been afforded the same !

  • moysie

    i think you’ve lost the plot. mccartneys murder was all over the media due to his families efforts in standing up to the paramilitaries. they generated the publicity. i agree with eyeofthenorth, you’re clearly shit-stirring.

  • Battle of the Bogside

    John East Belfast

    So are the British government and the British army criminal gangs in your opinion?

  • Battle of the Bogside

    Were the British government and British army criminal gangs in your opinion?

  • Peter Fyfe

    I am sure they would welcome him with open arms. Of course, it is not the right honourable Gerry Adams either. But what a surprise here, a loyalist kills a loyalist and somebody starts pointing a finger at Gerry Adams. This place does get tiresome.

  • moysie, many many families have tried to get the media to support them in thier efforts for justice over the death of a loved one and consistently the media refused pointedly to get involved, the McCartney murder got a dissproportionate ammount of coverage due to the political setting at that time, nothing whatsoever to do with Roberts family, polititcians of all hues jumped on the bandwagon of the mans murder, not out of concern for the victim nor the family but solely to make political capital !! Mr Moffats murder has all the similarities of Mr McCartneys murder, yet few if any are shouting from the rooftops, is his death any less repulsive of that of Robert McCartney ? or is it that there is no political gain to be got in showing Mr Moffats family the same support ?

    Maybe if Mr Moffats family were given the same support they and those on the shankill and beyond would have the same courage to take to the streets and protest, but thats not likely to happen as there is no value to the political vultures and thier media puppets.

    As for your shit stirring comment, it’s as ridiculous as that of eyeofthenorth, as such it’s unworthy of further comment.

  • lamhdearg

    Utv reporting”Hundreds of people turned out on Sunday evening at a vigil for the murdered man.”. On side note many hundreds also turned out at memorial in the ballysillen area of belfast for three people (i cant call them men as one was only 17) murdered by the ira 39 years ago, i mention this only as the media seem not to have covered it on tv or their news web sites.

  • EyeontheNorth

    Maybe Moffat served a sentence, but he was still clearly a ranking Loyalist. That’s not to say that he deserved what happened in any way, no-one deserves a fate like that, unless he had done something similar in the past – not saying he did, but he was a member of a group who butchered innocents for kicks.
    McCartney was no paramilitary, full stop.And the ‘media furore’ that people here are whining about was because of his sisters and partner, who had the guts to stand up to Provo gangsters. Thye paid for this as well, and were forced to leave the Markets due to people intimidating them. Yet they still campaigned and deserved the attention, as they played a pivotal role in the final ‘winding up’ of the IRA.
    It’s early days, but if the people of the Shankill are prepared to finally give these tattooed knuckle-draggers the push once and for all in protests, pickets or whatever, then I sincerly hope they get as much media attention as possible.
    But to start playing whataboutery before Moffat’s body is even cold is shit-stirring, no other way to put it. So there will be no retraction Victor. Save your anger for those Shankill anti-UVF protests you will be attending….I mean, you are going aren’t you?

  • jim

    played a pivotal role in the final/winding up/ of the ira.u dont live on the falls road hit one of the pira men a dig on the gub n see wat happens ule end up beside bobby.i know they havent went away u know

  • Robert McCartneys family were from the Short Strand not the Market, if your going to comment at least make an attempt to get the facts right !

    There is no whinning, shit stirring or otherwise, it’s a simple case of Mr Moffats murder not having the political currency of Mr McCartneys, and the lack of the political mouth pieces and media pariahs clearly prove that to be the case.

    No one deserves to be murdered in our society, unlike you, I do not consider what someone may or may not have done in the past as justification for such acts, they are to be condemned totally and unequivically. Mr Moffats family should be given the same media and political support as Mr McCartney if he is not (and its highly unlikely) his death will be just another statistic in the back pages of the history books. The silence of the politicians and media outlets over this mans murder is shameful, don’t they care ?

  • EyeontheNorth

    You’ve got me bang to rights on the Markets/Short Strand error. Apologies. But that’s all you’ve got me bang to rights for. Once again, what media silence are you talking about?? It only happened on Friday and it’s still being reported. And whether you like it or not, someone’s past will have an effect on how their murder is perceived by the media and public…Moffat was essentially part of a murder club…albiet a murder club that had semi-retired…while McCartney was an innocent civilian. Was never a member of any gang that bombed or mutilated anyone because of how the pronounced the letter ‘H’, so try and get that through your head chum!
    Anyone with half a soul will feel sympathy for Moffatt and his family, despite his past…but the two murders don’t equate.
    And Jim…I don’t live on the Falls….thank fuck for that!

  • Neil

    The pertinent point to my view is that of CS above. No child should witness these things. When any of us makes a choice (and it’s a choice that’s available to most people here ) to get involved in any of the paramilitary organisations, one should be aware of a few things. One is that you may end up in prison, or dead, quite likely by your erstwhile comrades. So this kind of thing happens and will continue to happen, but if there’s to be outrage I would aim it at the unnecessary traumitising of a child.

    the two murders don’t equate.

    Horse shit. The main reason the McCartney murder was disected in public up until the present day is because it was supposedly evidence that the IRA were active.

    The equivalence is there, two organisations on ceasefire, members of both organisations carry out a murder for personal reasons. The only difference between the situation as far as I can tell is the former activities of the two dead men. To say there’s no equivalence when there’s a list of things identical between the two murders is plain daft.

  • padraig

    You know, Johno , one day on this forum, or one very like it, I am going to see an honset, frank appraisal of the truly mind numbingly awful state working class Unionism finds itself in.

    They permit themselves to be led by their own middle and upper classes , people like Nigel Dodds and his Mr’s who have always despised the very people they profess to represent. For if the like of Dodds gave a damn about the Shankill Road he would live their.

    These Loyalist drug groupings ,such as the UVF were set up, run and supported by the British Government to kill Feneians, through idealogues such as Brigadier Frank Kitson. Fair enough; standard counter insurgency techniques. However after having organised a group such as the UVF (whose founders were burglars operating in the Springfield/West Circular area] Britsh Intelligence never bothered their heads disbanding them.

    Thats the problem. The real problem.

    However reading middle class Unionist commentators on this forum it appears to be every ones and every things problem but the Unionist community itself.

    The bottom line is this, until and unless Unionism and Unionists can get over their paranoid hatred of Fenians working class Unionist areas will continue to rot and Unionist drug dealers will continue to flourish.

  • moysie

    the only similarity was they were murdered by gangster scum, the big difference is moffat was gangster scum himself. no loss, except maybe to his family. but then he was a woman-beater too, so maybe not. to compare them is ridiculous.

  • padraig

    You know I can boil down much of Middle class Unionist comments on this forum concerning this matter into one simple phrase, one no doubt I would hear in the Rex Bar itself if I was to sanuder in,

    ‘Its the Fenian’s fault’..and no amount of high falutin’ middle class chatter can disguise this; for Gusty Spence was right, the Rebels know what they are fighting for, Unionists only know what they are fighting against.

  • EyeontheNorth

    What a total contradiction. When you join a paramilitary cum mafia organisation like the UVF or Provos, then you’re right, you should expect to end up either behind bars or brown bread.
    This fate is not something you should expect when you’re a totally innocent man out having a pint a la McCartney. If it wasn’t for his sisters and partner, then the McCartney furore wouldn’t have got the media milage it did. The whole ‘plucky sisters vs the evil IRA’ angle is what made that story what it was, not the ceasefire breach.
    Apart from the ceasefire angle, tell me what else these two murders had in common, seeing as you think there’s a ‘list’.

  • Neil

    1) The were both murdered
    2) The murderers were paramilitaries
    3) The reason for both murders were personal disagreements
    4) The murderers used their paramilitary knowledge to attempt to evade capture
    5) Both organisations at the time were on ceasefire

    If it wasn’t for his sisters and partner, then the McCartney furore wouldn’t have got the media milage it did.

    And no Loyalists used it as a stick to beat SF with? It wasn’t trotted out as evidence that the IRA were active and dangerous? It wasn’t put forward as a reason to stop power sharing? All bollocks.

    The sisters made plenty of noise, but believe me families have been doing that for a long time in this place. The reason they got as much prominence as they did was because it suited the never, never, never brand of Loyalism to say it was proof that power sharing couldn’t happen because the IRA was still active.

    The other murders that families complained about didn’t concern that branch of Unionism in the past, they didn’t care about the IRA killing Catholics, which the IRA did, and which the families complained about as vociferously as the McC sisters. But Loyalism leapt on this because it suited their own ends at the time.

    The list as requested is above. 5 points of similarity, 1 difference – the prior acts of the victim. You say there was no equivalence, I say there’s 5 points of equivalence. So do you accept that there is some equivalence or are you to continue with the line that there is nothing to link the two? If so I’d be grateful for you to point out how each of the 5 points above are incorrect. If not, then you accept that there is equivalence and that you were wrong, that’s cool.

  • EyeontheNorth

    1 – they were both murdered….right. I think that one’s kinda obvious, though pretty unnecessary when I ask you to present a list of similarities in the two murders.
    2 – Paramilitaries. Innocent children have been murdered by paras in the past. Does that mean they are ‘equal’ to the likes of Moffatt or other paras killed by their erstwhile buddies? Don’t be absurd!
    3 – The McCartney ‘sisagreement was a spur of the moment slaying resulting from a drunken pub arguement. God knows what kind of murky dealings caused Moffatt to get popped and how long they were brewing for…I’m guessing longer than the mere minutes in which McCartney’s death was decided (Anyway, how do you know Moffatt’s death was ‘personal’?).
    4 – Paramilitary knowledge? Please don’t give these cavemen credit. Their ‘knowledge’ revolves around threats, while one of the alleged McCartney killers went and cut his hair straight away to try and claim he wasn’t there…what a criminal mastermind! And once again, how do you know what Moffatt’s killers have been up to since Friday??
    5- The IRA were on ceasefire, but the UVF as of Friday have officially stood down and had supposedly decommissioned.
    Unionist politicians would have used any excuse to stop power-sharing at that time, so yes, the McCartney murder was a gift to them, but it was the McCartney family forcing the IRA and Sinn Fein to re-evaluate their street-level authority that took the sisters and fiance to the White House.
    I gotta say chum, yours and others complaints about the lack of publicity for this killing have a certain “Them fenians get all the attention” ring to it. I hope I’m wrong.

  • Neil

    You asked me what they had in common, saying I had a list. I assume you now accept that they do have some things in common? That was and is my only point. Perhaps it’s my problem but I tend to take exception to statements like ‘the two murders don’t equate’ when in fact they share quite a lot in common when compared to any other murder (like say for instance – those of the lunatic in England).

    I actually agree with you on one, very important point, that being that it’s only Monday so we can’t really expect the wholesale dissection of this story in the media as yet.But given the vast amount of attention that goes the way of SF when IRA men get blamed for bank robberies or murders, and given that the organisation is on ceasefire and that they have said that they have completed decommissioning I would expect that the wholesale dissection will come in due course.

  • EyeontheNorth

    You said there was a list of similarities, not me. So I asked you what they were. They don’t share a lot in common apart from the fact that the people who did it are paramilitaries. Step back from it and they are two very different victim and sets of circumstances.
    And please don’t tell me you’re getting narky because the UVF aren’t getting enough attention for their stunts? There won’t be as big a political backlash regarding ceasefire breaches because the PUP aren’t poised to become the biggest party in NI, unlike SF, who have ministers in a government. Dawn Purvis might lose her mileage claims and free coffee entitlements but that’s about it as far as punishing a party who have only one MLA.

  • Neil

    You said there was a list of similarities, not me. So I asked you what they were.

    Yes, the words being: tell me what else these two murders had in common, seeing as you think there’s a ‘list’.

    Sorry, I transposed the word ‘saying’ to ‘seeing’ in my reply. Yes, I’ve now provided a list of five similarities, I take it you accept that in those there are certain, what’s the word, equivalence between the two?

    They don’t share a lot in common apart from the fact that the people who did it are paramilitaries. Step back from it and they are two very different victim and sets of circumstances.

    Here we’ll have to disagree. I see them as sharing quite a lot in common, apart from as stated, the prior acts of the victims. As others have said, murder is murder regardless of the victim’s past, I would agree with that view.

    please don’t tell me you’re getting narky because the UVF aren’t getting enough attention for their stunts

    No, what I actually said was it’s only Monday so we can’t really expect the wholesale dissection of this story in the media as yet, so I kind of stated that I wouldn’t have expected them to get any real attention for this murder (don’t know of any other ‘stunts’).

    As for the PUP, you’re quite right on that, and who’s to say that punishing the PUP would help at any rate, but I would expect that the whole UVF/totally decommissioned/on ceasefire angle might be explored in the media. But maybe some people don’t really care about that side of the argument.

  • Neil

    Should say: get any real attention for this murder as yet.

  • EyeontheNorth

    Look, can I quote you here?
    “To say there’s no equivalence when there’s a list of things identical between the two murders is plain daft.” End of discussion on that point please.
    You agree with ‘murder is murder’? But you said the lunatic murders in England are different? How does that equate with your point of view? I suppose you would say the Shankill Butchers killings were different from the English Crossbow Cannibal too, as Lennie Murphy and his crew were UVF members? They were serial killers full stop, and even their murders did not equate to Moffatt’s death, despite the UVF link.
    And don’t play silly beggars about your last previous point. We both know you were being sarcastic about the lack of media response when you said you expected it would come soon.
    And to be honest, no-one gives a fuck if the UVF haven’t fully decommissioned, as everyone knows they never did. It might be a bit more worrying if they started shooting innocent catholics again, but if they’re killing each other in disputes over drugs, turf wars or who’s the better singer – John or Edward, then no-one outside of the victim’s family is going to shed a tear. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
    Here’s the issue you should be concerned about…why

  • EyeontheNorth

    ignore that last line

  • fourwinds

    Man, this thread is really poor. It would be nice if we could hear from some of the local contributors who know what they are talking about.

  • RepublicanStones

    Just witnessed a rather heavy handed arrest taking place on the Ballysillan road, involving wrestling the man in question to the ground and CS spray directed at youths trying to intervene. Wonder if it has anything to do with the issue of this thread.

  • chewbacca

    Victor, I hope to see the end of this kind of brutality on our streets just as you do but I’m afraid It will take the ordinary people turning against the thugs as the residents of short strand did to stop it.

  • stevo

    Moffat lived by the sword and he died by the sword….simple as. He was not an ‘innocent’ man. An innocent man in my book is a decent hard-working guy who tries to do right and keep out of trouble.

    Moffat joined an organisation reowned for brutality and the murder of many ordinary people – no innocent man does that. Frankly he probably got a taste of his own medicine. People like that are no loss in my book. Let all the gangsters kill each other, less to bother the rest of us

    Its always amusing to watch them describe people who attack them as ‘scum’ while their own sordid pasts are no doubt littered with brutal attacks on others. the hypocrisy of these gangsters is astounding.

    At least in the Mafia, when your own comrades eventually killed you (as they usually did in the end) they didnt winge, they knew it was a case of living by the sword and dying by the sword.
    No please spare me the crap about moffat being a decent, guy, a ‘gentleman’ and all that total nonsense.

  • DOES ANY ONE KNOW THIS YOUNG MANS BACKGROUND,WHY WAS HE IN PRISON DID HE WORK ETC.