Memorial to murdered soldiers dedicated

The News Letter has a report of Sunday’s formal dedication of a memorial at Ballysillan Avenue to three young Scottish soldiers: Dougald McCaughey, 23, from Glasgow along with brothers John and Joseph McCaig, aged 17 and 18, from Ayr. The three were lured from the city centre and murdered at the isolated White Brae off the Ligionel Road on March 9, 1971. On Saturday the families of the murdered soldiers held a private service at the site of the atrocity and yesterday the memorial was dedicated before being followed by a parade of standards to a drumhead service of remembrance at Ballysillan leisure centre, attended by approximately 1,000 people.

David McCaughey, Donald’s brother, said (from the News Letter):

“I have been in Belfast over the last 20 years but never went up to that spot until this year,”

“This was also the first time I met the McCaig family, it was bad enough that we lost Dougald but to lose two and so young, it is so tragic.

“It was either the wireworks or the army for Dougald after his father died and he joined the army because he wanted to travel.”

David also met the women who at the tender age of 15 had found the three soldiers lying dead after the murders.

“She told me it was something she will never, ever forget as long as she lives, seeing the three bodies piled up,”

“It makes me sick seeing republicans in top positions in government, it’s the hypocrisy of it, there are certain individuals who would want this airbrushed from history but thanks to the good people of Northern Ireland and Scotland we will never let that happen.”

The memorial is the realisation of the dream of members of Oldpark/ Cavehill Royal British Legion, who along with the support of the Greater Shankill Community Council and Shankill Mirror, last year commissioned commemorative badges to fund the project which sold over 15,000 worldwide.

  • Dan

    More digging up of the past. Sure it was a sad incident, but surely the only people who care now are the families, and after 40 years it can’t be anywhere near as tough for them. It’s harsh but it’s true – we need to move on.

    In any case, where’s Stephen Carroll’s memorial? There’s something that would be worthwhile at present.

  • lamhdearg

    Thank you for posting this, I wrote a little of it on the “uvf ceasefire post” but it deserves a post of its own, i was at the service and it was a very well run and worthy of more press that it has received to date (talk back covered it today) maybe some drunkeness or fighting would have got it more press. Sorry to disappoint. Less WE Forget.

  • Michael

    “Less WE Forget”

    I also prefer the ‘less we remember’ how the poem actually went 😉

  • Argosjohn

    These three terrorists were members of the notorious Black |Watch regiment, who had a terrible record of sectarian attacks and robbing and looting Catholic homes. No doubt rape would also have been on the charge sheet had not Ms McLoughlin intervened.
    What next? The French will put up memorials to the SS, such as Hans Pieper, murdered by cowards in France many years after the war ended.

    Thisd memorial is an affront to all decent people.

  • boris1

    That has got to be one of the most vile posts I have read on Slugger.

    Its also indicative of exactly why Slugger is no longer held in, anything remotely close to, the regard it was.

  • boris1

    I forgot to add……..They were NOT members of the Black Watch, they were Royal Highland Fusiliers.

  • HeinzGuderian

    Londonjohn…………your bitterness and hatred knows no bounds.

  • Argosjohn

    Guderian (Nazi general’s name?): The Black Watch was and probably still is a sectarian rag bag. They should not be celebrated for occupying Ireland and robbing houses. These three guys went off to fornicate. As the saying goes, they thought with their little heads, not their big ones. Is that cause for a garish plynth?

  • Granni Trixie

    I think it is worth repeating a point I have made previously: that on this site we seem to have rules about not going off on a tangent….which seems absurd in view of some of the offensive remarks above which apparently are ‘allowed’.

    For the record,you can try all you like to dehumanise these 3 but they live not just in the memories of their loved ones but in those of people like me who were horrified at the callous luring of young men to their death (especially as one of these honeypot women was at school with me,as it happens). I wonder when Roisin McL lost her own son when he was robbing did she think back to those other 3 she helped kill?

    DAN: you obviously have not lost a loved one or you would not express the view that after 40 years it is “nowhere near as tough”. Or you are just insensitive to suffering.
    And if this is playing the man,I have no regrets.

  • As an Irish Republican and Socialist, I’ve no problem with the above memorial to the three Scottish Soldiers…If people wish to remember them then so be it…..

    In saying that those who were brutally killed by British troops in Ireland should also be remembered. The recent Conflict was a brutal period and all those lives lost should be equally remembered.

  • Mr Crumlin

    Well said. Agree with that.

  • lamhdearg

    argos they were Royal Highland Fusiliers, and i doubt they joined their countrys army with the intention of raping their way cross ireland.

  • lamhdearg

    ArdEoin Republican
    may i assume You unlike other republicans would have been happy if the memorial had been put at the place of their deaths.

  • DerTer

    Turgon
    I’m sorry your post has produced such an outpouring of venom – saved mainly by the sound and sensible offering from Grannie T. It’s perhaps worth noting that the troubles had hardly got going when these young men were shot – it was certainly long before anyone could possibly argue that their regiment had established a record of “of sectarian attacks and robbing and looting Catholic homes”. Is anyone really suggesting that setting these men up in this sordid fashion was other than a deliberate escalation in both tactical and strategic terms of the conflict by the IRA?

  • kells

    Yer woman’s crap was as full of venom as the previous posts.

  • Granni Trixie

    Kells; I agree – but the difference is that my feelings are stirred by the memory of women using their feminine ways to lure young men to their deaths. It was so out of kilter to the morals we knew.

  • Granni Trixie

    Should have added – there is such a thing as justifiable anger particulalry as I knew one of the women from school and knew we were taught to value life. I knew her husband too. She fled down south leaving her family behind.

  • Lamh Dearg, I’d also have no problem having the said memorial at the spot where they were killed either…..

    I just think its hypocritical for some on here and elsewhere to use the deaths of these three British soldiers to further their own selfish interests….

    Maybe the Shankill Mirror, British Legion et el..should also fundraise for a proper memorial to those 11 civilians, including, women, teenagers and a Priest killed by British troops in Ballymurphy. Maybe then, I’d be able to accept they truely are concerned about proper memorials etc??

  • lamhdearg

    ArdEoin
    On your first point, it was planed to put it at white brae (ligoniel for others reading this) but a threat was made to blow it up, You seem to be a man in the know was this threat real?

    Your point number two, i agree with you completely

    Point three, Surly thats a job for the people of ballymurphy.And i hope they get justice

    ? Have you ever heard the rumor the one of the killers of the three jocks was the grandson of a Enniskillen Fusiler.

  • Blair

    They were in the Royal Highland Fusiliers.

  • Munsterview

    I can well understand other differing Nationalist / Republican views here on this subject.

    There is a story I read in Islamic Literature dating to over seven decades ago from Libya at the start of the second World War when the Italians Fascist Army invaded. Most were poor conscript soldiers that had no choice; it was fight or firing squad.

    An Islamic teacher did his best to keep his school together but when the majority of his teenage students took to the hills, he did too and led them in guerilla warfare against the Italians. Once from the hills they see their village burned and their mothers and sisters, other females first raped and then murdered. Any males found were also tortured and killed.

    Some terrified children were left alive to relate what they had seen.

    As the troops were returning the Flying Column ambushed them. It was not much of a fight and half the marauding troops were taken alive. The prisoners were lined up on a kneeling line and the young Islamic Officer, the second in command, went down the line executing the prisoners. His mentor ran up and demanded to know what he was doing ?

    “….I am doing what they did to our people….” was the reply

    ” I thought I was your Instructor ” the Imam replied, ” Since when have these men become your teachers” ?

    To Republicans of all views I pose the same question, since when has turgid 4% or any of that kind become our teachers ?

    We as Irish people and of Ancient Gaelic Race are better than this, we always were and we always will be.

    Irrespective of the true motives behind the monument, it is raised to fallen soldiers and should respected!

  • Munsterview

    Oh lets start even earlier still, how about a defense of the Black & Tans and the Auxies ?

    They were shown up in a terrible light in ‘The Winds That Shakes The Barley’. Not all were that bad surely?

    And as for the Brits deliberately burning Cork, it is now about time that the story of that unfortunate Tommy that carelessly threw away a match after lighting his fag was given a little more credence too.

    Accidents will happen!

  • Munsterview

    Still the same old problem : was is war !

    If however there is no acknowledgement that a war situation existed then what happened is distorted and taken out of context.

    A generation Of Senior British Army Officers have provided a nice little earner for the Ministry controlling the British Armed Forces by touring Nato and other Military Colleges lecturing on how to fight Low Intensity Warfare.

    Nether these Senior British Armed Forces Officers or their audience have any difficulty of calling a spade, a spade or referring to the Six County armed conflict as war.

    Nomenclature : while we use oppressor propaganda terminology it can be used to cover what really occured. When this happens the lessons of history are not learned and in the words of McLune….” we walk backwards into the future’!

  • Granni Trixie

    A. Repubican: why would you assume that anybody who thinks it terribly wrong for women to lure 3 young men to their deaths think it right to kill people in Ballymurphy?
    These acts were all wrong.
    BTW, Fr. Hugh Mulllan was an exceptional priest. May he, and they, RIP.

  • As a man percieved to be in the know..I think the ‘threat’ to blow up a memorial would be a joke…Why would Republicans wanna use explosives to destroy a memorial??

    As 4 the rumours..well U should never believe everything U hear chara. One of the rumours in Ardoyne ever since has been one of the main men involved later turned out to be a BBritish Spy and is living the high life today with assistance from British taxpayers..but then again, who would believe that, right??

  • Granni Trixie, I assume that anyone/organisation who fundraises for a fitting memorial to three British soldiers should also help secure some kind of closure/justice for the innocent victims killed by the British Army in Ballymurphy!

    In order that our past is properly remembered, everyone needs to accept that every victim was equal and there’s no heiracy of victimhood.

  • Munsterview

    ArdE R

    Have you not learned anything from these postings? Very simple really.

    Foreign Army comes on the streets, batters, gasses and to drive home the message, shoots unarmed demonstrating civilians.

    Army is called……….. Peacekeepers.

    Some unarmed demonstrators arm and retaliate killing a few soldiers.

    The armed civilians are called ……….. Terrorists.

    Monuments are for brave soldiers who kill unarmed civilians, not their victims.

    Got that ?……… Now go to to bed will you, I have enough problems trying to enlighten the ‘other side’ without taking on the task for our own side as well !

  • Niccolo

    Would someone please remind me….how many prisoners did the Provisional IRA take during the ‘Troubles’? After all, it was a ‘war’ wasn’t it?

  • Niccolo

    As for the deaths of civillians, well: the British Army killed 149 civillians whilst the Provisonal IRA killed 495 civillians. In fact the IRA were ‘top of the charts’ for killings in all of the following categories: women (139), children (47), pensioners (90), Protestants (795), Roman Catholics (342) – from the very community they claimed to ‘protect’. I hope these figures will serve to “enlighten”.

  • kells

    You have got two incidents totally confused.One was the three Jocks who got shot and the other was the Three Sergents who got shot on the Antrim Road in a flat.Rosin’s newphew Kevin Kane 18 was murdered by the UVF in a bomb explosion and another female relative was stabbed to death by Loyalist filth.

  • kevin moran

    Niccolo

    You miss the point. When republicans shoot people it’s a ‘war’ and ‘all deaths are a cause of regret’. When themuns shoot back it’s murder; simple when you think about it?

  • I think you both miss the point, when the forces of law and order run around killing the civillians they are supposed to be protecting it’s called MURDER !

  • dmcoop

    “We as Irish people and of Ancient Gaelic Race are better than this, we always were and we always will be”

    Of course you are : Look at Darkley, LaMon, the disappeared…..

  • HeinzGuderian

    Argos ( shop for buying tat ?); The slimmers of the year at the Maze………………any problems with a garish plynth for them ??

  • HeinzGuderian

    Didn’t pira brutally kill a few more than our Troops did ?? Or maybe it’s just our British Troops you have the problem with ??

  • HeinzGuderian

    It the ‘dirty,little,sectarian skirmish’,as David Ervine called it, was ‘war’……….why all the gurning about ‘shoot to kill’ ??

  • HeinzGuderian

    Indeed. republicans stand proud……………………Jean McConville/Robert McCartney…………………the garlic race honours you………………..Ermmmm ??

  • HeinzGuderian

    When the forces of pira run around killing the civilians it’s supposed to be protecting,it’s called ……………’The murder of Jean McConville was not a crime.’ According to El Beardo ??

  • When thr forces of law and order murder 14 innocent civilians in Derry blah blah blah…….

    We could go on and on mr 57, but the fact remains Britain commited murder on the Island of Ireland, and no ammount of whataboutary is gonna change that ! State sponsered MURDER by British terrorists !!

  • Munsterview

    Pointless to attempt to argue!

    History and The International Community have long passed their verdicts on what happened in the Six County Statelet between 69 and the ceasefire in 96.

    ” If in the last few years you havent discarded a major opinion or acquired a new one, check your pulse. You may be dead! “……… Gelette Burgess

    In the context of some of these postings there is no need to even bother to check pulses : The Six County Statelet contains the biggest collection of Mummies in the world outside of Egypt!

  • Munsterview

    History buffs and Republicans please note…..

    RTE1 tonight 10:15 pm The Limits of Liberty….. dealing with the First Dail , establishing the Republic and that period. Sounds good!

  • HeinzGuderian

    Oh we could go on and on Vic,but I would take you a tad more seriously if you gurned half as much about the republican murder gangs !!!

    State sponsored murder,you whinge…………….were the cowardly pira murder squads not sponsored by the Oirish State,or does that not count ??

  • Driftwood

    The 3 soldiers were members of the Royal Highland Fusiliers, not the Black Watch.
    But why the inference against the Black Watch by some commenters? They performed their peacekeeping duties commendably here and elsewhere, and continue to do so.
    It was units like them that stood between the 2 warring factions here with little thanks. Politicians may steal the limelight, but several regiments held this place together at the worst moments in our history.

  • HeinzGuderian

    Herman……………….Does the International Community include Colombia ?? “ira go home……..murder your own people” !!

  • HeinzGuderian

    Yeah………….” If in the last few years you havent discarded a major opinion or acquired a new one, check your pulse. You may be dead! “……… Gelette Burgess

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  • Every regiment based here drift, ensured we were destined to travel the long rd we came, they were part and parcel of the problem , nay……they were the probelm along with thier murerous paymasters !

  • Niccolo

    Munsterview,

    “History and The International Community have long passed their verdicts on what happened in the Six County Statelet between 69 and the ceasefire in 96.”

    Lol….that’ll be why the Provisional IRA was listed as a known terrorist organization in, for instance, the US throughout that same period.

    Tell me, how many times do you have to repeat that to yourself until you actually start believing it?

    Another learned contributor, ArdEoin Republican, earlier stated and I quote: “Why would Republicans wanna use explosives to destroy a memorial??”

    Why indeed….the families and friends of the 11 innocent victims of the Provisional IRA’s bombing of the Enniskillen war memorial in 1987 are still trying to figure that one out.

    In this instance I think U2’s Bono spoke for the ‘international community” when he declared the following after the IRA’s Enniskillen massacre:

    “What’s the glory of taking a man from his bed and gunning him down in front of his wife and children? Where’s the glory in that? Where’s the glory in bombing a remembrance day parade of old-age pensioners, their medals taken out and polished up for the day? Where’s the glory in that…to leave them dying, or crippled for life, or dead under the rubble of a revolution that the majority of the people in my country don’t want? No More!”

    I removed the section where he employs foul language but I’m sure, from the excerpt above, you catch the drift.

  • RepublicanStones

    Those three weren’t more than lads. There shouldn’t be any objection to this memorial.

  • pinni

    It was a despicable act by Irish republicans who have ultimately failed in their objectives. What a shame that over 3,500 were killed before they realised the futility of their strategy.

    Obviously some of the old republican hatreds are still present, as evidenced by a number of the comments on this thread, but NI has moved on, and I hope and pray we never return to where we once were.

    The unsuccessful IRA terror campaign is a dark stain on the history of the province, and we will never forget those who served to protect us.

  • Munsterview

    Neither will I forget my experiences of these ‘ protectors ‘ during my frequent trips to the Six Counties.

    In your view the B specials that ‘ served to protect ‘ should all have been given medals and pensions !

    Oops…….. ah well can’t get them all I suppose!

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘us’ being who pinni?

  • Munsterview

    Britian fought a second World War that spanned the world with British Arrmed Forced active on every part of the planet where Britian had her interests treathned and where she could defend them them if she could.

    If not these resources were destroyed irrespective of what effect it had on the natives. Thats war!

    I will just for now take one event from that war, the deliberate firebombing of Dresden in such a way that a firestorm was created that swept inwards killing over 100,000 people. The City one of the cultural jewels of European Civilization was totally destroyed with all it’s Millennia of art’s treasures.

    When Hitler ordered his army generals to destroy Paris, another pivot of European Civilization and like Dresden a world cultural heritage icon, Hitlers Generals proved a little more civilized than their British Bomber Command counterparts and refused the order.

    Following is part of an internal RAF memo that is now in the public domain. In this it states that the city and its 100,000 people, many of them war refugees were destroyed in part to (quote)

    ‘….. incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do…..’

    Over 100,000 thousand young and old, children, women and men, many elderly, refugees already broken by war and one of the finest Cultural Cities in the world destroyed…… ‘ to show the Russians what Bomber Command could do!

    * * * * * * *
    (1) Internal Royal Air Force memo (January, 1945)

Dresden, the seventh largest city in Germany and not much smaller than Manchester, is also far the largest unbombed built-up the enemy has got. In the midst of winter with refugees pouring westwards and troops to be rested, roofs are at a premium. The intentions of the attack are to hit the enemy where he will feel it most, behind an already partially collapsed front, to prevent the use of the city in the way of further advance, and incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do.
    * * * * * * * *
    There is no such thing as a nice war, whether conducted on a world wide basis as with The Second World War and events such as 100,000 civilians casually killed as a demonstration of bomber command firepower for the Russians, or Enniskellen in a small localized Low Intensity War as was conducted in what Republicans regard as the Six British Occupied Counties and that others of Planter Stock regard as the remaining part of Ireland that will be forever England !

    Obviously there can be no accepting of each others views here, they are mutually contradictory, much less a meetings of minds.

    The Good Friday Agreement recognize this, you are allowed to keep your ‘ Forever England delusion for the present and the sake of peace, we are allowed to finally end British interference on this Island and see the back of them out of the Six Counties as we did the other Twenty Six when the votes stack up… as in time they will !.

    It should be Twenty Eight, Two voted for to make A Republic with the other Twenty-Six in 1918, they were hijacked into your little Statelet against their will in 1920 !

    Then again Democracy was never the strongpoint of the British in relation to the Colonies much less those planter descendants of ‘The Good Old Smithy’ tradition.

    It is necessary to restate these things in blunt plain English ever so often, the Six Counties are a Colonial hangover that as if my own experience is anything to go by, our average decent friends ‘Across The Water’ cannot wait to be rid of!

    In the Low Intensity War that began in 69/70, aspects of which are not yet concluded, terrible things were done some, some like Bloody Sunday on your side by Armed Forces you supported, some such as Enniskellen on our side by Armed Forces we supported.

    However there is one vital difference, Bloody Sunday was a deliberate massacre, Enniskellen was not.

    However to those of a certain mindset all these things are moot; things were going swimmingly up there until a bunch of over pampered students with nothing better to do set out from Belfast to Derry to provoke the State and cause trouble for the sake of trouble……. well you know the rest of that narrative, Goodness knows I have heard and read it often enough.

    I believe even 3.9% of the electorate voted for it the last election !.

    Meanwhile we have a narrative too, you can get to know that as I know yours, but then again that is the problem with certain people like me they not alone know your narrative and where it came from, they know it all too bloody well for your sides taste.

    Irish War Of Independence Hero and Freedom Fighter, the late Commandant General Tom Barry took a keen interest in what was happening in the North and especially the morale of the IRA units. Because of certain family circumstances at one period towards the end of his life I met him on a regular basis.

    On one of these occasions I had come back from the Six Counties the day before, the usual questioning followed. As was about to close the door and having left my car he leaned back in, looked me in the eye and said….

    “…… The Black and Tans Were In The Shit, We had to get them and we went into the shit after them. There is no other way to fight a war and you tell the boys that from me…”

    Wars be they major or Low intensity, especially the latter are a series of brutal acts. All killed had a father and mother, most brothers, sisters and other extended families. All lost lives civilian or soldier are regrettable.

    When I hear of yet another soldier killed in Afghanistan which do you think I do, give three cheers or think of his family as I do other families on our side in similar circumstances and the effect it will have on them. But then again that would mean looking past stereotypes and thinking outside the box!.

    However as I have written, if you believe that there was no War to begin with then everything else is moot……… !

  • Given the ammount of informers at the highest level within the IRA I would contend the British sponsered all of the murders on the Island of Ireland, does that count ?

  • And lets not forget the other state agents within Loyalism, the whole organisations being controlled by the British state, murdering at will at the behest of thier handlers, or does that not count either ?

  • Dan

    Well I’m nowhere near 40 so I couldn’t possibly know, but no matter what it surely makes it a private not a public matter, so why don’t they have a memorial in their homes or something similar?

  • Stephen Williamson

    Time to let go – if we in Northern Ireland are to have anything that resembles normality, issues such as this need to be left with the families to grieve over and one day, let go.

    I Live in NI – wouldn’t want to live anywhwre else but, the past needs to be in the past, not brought up when people feel it’s ok to do so.

    Take PC Blakelock’s family (Broadwater Farm 1981 Riots). He was brutally murdered, yet you don’t hear them rattling on about it.

  • Stephen Williamson

    A terrible record, back in the early 20th Century.

    You need to read a little history, then make a constructive comment.

    These young men were abducted, tortured and when pleading for their lives, shot in the head – Only a debased culture would think this was ok, the youngest wasn’t far off 18. I think a memorial is a good thing if it helps the families come to terms with their loss.

  • Stephen Williamson

    Black and Tans?, ghosts from the beginning of the 20th Century. What bearing do they have on three young men who were brutally tortured then shot in the head whilst their hands where tied?

    Absolutely nothing.

    B Specials. what bearing do they have?

    Absolutely nothing.

    These were young lads, murdered by cowards.

  • Stephen Williamson

    And to settle a score, Dresden was bombed in response to Coventry taking a battering.

    The RAF Bombed legimate targets which escalated.

    Buy a book man…

  • Munsterview

    http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/bombing_of_dresden.htm

    This is from an RAF own memo that I quoted earlier….

    “Dresden, the seventh largest city in Germany and not much smaller than Manchester, is also far the largest unbombed built-up the enemy has got. In the midst of winter with refugees pouring westwards and troops to be rested, roofs are at a premium. The intentions of the attack are to hit the enemy where he will feel it most, behind an already partially collapsed front, to prevent the use of the city in the way of further advance, and incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do.”

    I did it to show that war is hell and also to show that when Hitler ordered his Generals to burn Paris in similar circumstances they refused for the sake of civilization ! Dresden was bombed and so many civilians killed that it took the SS from nearby camps two weeks to burn the charred remains in the public square. It was none primarily as the RAF document advocates to…………” incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do !”

    Black & Tans…… just ghosts from the start of the 20th, century ?

    There is a memorial outside Banteer village in Co. Cork to a Milk Inspector shot in a hillside field while about his work collecting a milk sample. from a quarter mile away across the valley by a Tan raiding party in a farm yard. When his officer demanded why he did it, his answer…… ” Just to see if I could do it, it was a bloody good shot !”

    Your ‘just ghosts’ have left similar stories in villages all over Southern Ireland, very much laving history to the families concerned. When attending a history conferences across the water in the autumn all there observe three minutes silence for the ceasefire of WW1, do you suggest that victims of the same period should not be remembered just because they were killed by British Armed Forces?

    Tans, Auxies ( ex battle hardened WW1 officers described officially in British Propaganda death notices as ‘Police Cadets’) etc for Irish Nationalists are part of a straight line that encapsulate the activities of such forces in Ireland from Bloody Sunday and their other acts of this campaign back to the atrocities of the Elizabethan Wars on this island and before.

    As to the B Specials : they fall into the category of ‘Queens Irish’ people born in the Island of Ireland who were prepared out of conviction but mainly for pay to don a uniform of the Crown and murder their fellow citizens on this Island to English requirements……. or as was often the case for their own personal satisfaction……. exterminating what they considered sub-human vermin.

    There is no middle ground in this, war is war, all of those ‘murdered young lads’ were trained soldiers and as part of a Foreign Occupation Army that hours or days later, were quite capable of shooting down innocent civilians as their kind consistently did over the period of the last Six County Conflict.

    This is not just about ‘young lads murdered by cowards’ no more than Bloody Sunday is just about Paratrooper discipline, such acts go to the core of all the armed conflicts on this Island and the present Armed Republican Resistance.

    Catholic/Nationalist/ Republicans have one narrative……. that of a people conquered by brute force, systematically ethnic cleansed over centuries…… pushed to the margins… dispossessed…… denied religious freedom….. education, their culture denigrated and destroyed etc who yet continually fought back and eventually established a Provisional Republic in 1916…… had that ratified by 88% of the electorate in 1918, two years later….. who had this democratic will of 88% thwarted and denied by 12% of the population who then hijacked in another two counties to add to their four to make an unstable starlet that could only be maintained by exercise of constant force and repression against their artificially created minority who were in fact part of the majority on this island.

    Then we have the Planter Narrative of history….. yours ! In this the invasion was legitimate and every act of resistance against a Crown Soldier on this Island was an act of treachery and cowardice by the natives who were resisting your ‘ progress and civilization ‘.

    Look to the other British and Colonized countries that shared your view of history, that were in fact educated into it and nothing else during the dominance of the British Empire. All that is left of this narrative in most of these countries is a few lines in grave stone monuments in long abandoned weed covered graveyards where Union Jacks once flew as plentiful as they now do on the Shankhill Road.

    West of the Bann is now Nationalist majority, Belfast will soon have a Sinn Fein Lord mayor and your Statelet a Sinn Fein First Minister……. you and your kind cannot stop the onward march of history, merly slow it down occasionally. It is you and your kind that needs to look to the twenty first century and seriously the future.

    ‘ The Turk, Jew and Atheist may enter here but not a Papist ‘, erected in by the gate on the walls of Bandon is long gone as are the walls and the mentality that supported it. Those in the area of planter stock are now thoroughly ashamed of their ancestors history during this period. Indeed the loudest religious voices condemning Drumcree in the South came from Church Of Ireland sources, they did not want to be reminded of their own past in this regard.

    Not the nicest topic for a fine sunday afternoon but these things need to be spelled out in blunt , plain english ever so often…… lest we forget!

  • Stephen Williamson

    For how long will people like you always try and link history to the present?.

    If anyone can’t move on – it’s you!!

    FYI – I am not a planter. I’m Catholic and proud of being so. Your comments border on racist if not very offensive. Here’s a question – Do you live in Northern Ireland?, or are you one of these ‘republicans’ who like the old pissing contest in the Wine Bars around Dalkey when it suits them. I bet you even vote Fianna Fail and told your friends you voted for the shinners..

    Memorials are there for people to think about those who have went before us – not a means of raking up a very old and worn out arguement. What bearing does an incident over 100 years ago have on today?, i think you will find the answer is nothing.

    If you think that Sinn Fein will have a first minister here, you are in for a shock – it won’t happen. Sinn Fein are useless, just look at the hash of Education that we now have. Belfast has already had a Sinn Fein Lord Mayor – Alex Maskey. Someone from either SDLP or Alliance should be first minister because either party actually stands for something other than tribalism.

    I see you have stated that enniskillen was a mistake.. Let’s see – Bomb planted at the cenotaph on Rememberance Day and it just happens to go off – Mistake?

    Omagh: Clear links to PIRA members and i suppose that was a mistake too?

    Bloody Sunday was wrong, but we are sick of hearing about it. Lets face it, will there be a conviction?, no. And because Greedy Paddy wanted his snout in the trough for a bit longer, there will be no more public enquiries – A real result indeed!!

    United Ireland. You are quite right, England can’t wait to get shot of NI. One small item you overlooked, Majority of people living in the Republic don’t want it back. If the Republicans have their memorials, then it’s only fair that the British Army should have theirs to remember their fallen too.

    It matters as much as the current sentiment amongst residents in either Coventry or Dresden regards the bombings – It happened, but it doesn’t really mean anything now.

    Get over yourself and get a life.

  • Munsterview

    Coventry and Dresden……. ‘ It happened, but it doesn’t really mean anything now.’

    Cork city had it’s centre burned out in an act of wanton destruction by the British army as did Mallow in the war of Independence. Both welcome thousands of English visitors every year without one iota of unpleasantness or thought of the past : the other cities such as Limerick that had their Lord Mayors assassinated, likewise. In fact all cities, towns and counties in all Twenty-Six counties are the same in this regard.

    The whole Thirty-Two counties should be now like this also and would be had not the majority of four counties just 12% ignored the democratic will of the other twenty-eight, 88% on this Island and put their own selfish interests and bloody mindness before the peace, happiness and prosperity of all the other 88%.

    There are four Historical narratives regarding the history of this Island, that of the Natives, The Planter, The British and the factual historical truth. Even the occasional time we get something like the latter as in the Saville Report, Sammy Wilson and Gregory Campell etc have to indulge in the usual Unionist Bloodmindness and still dare to question the innocence of some, and by implication, all of the murdered and wounded Civil Rights marchers!

    If when I detail historical fact if I ‘ border on racist if not very offensive,’ it is because these events that I relate were just that. Any amount of shooting the messenger will not change the message, that is already a matter of historical record!

    “……… What bearing does an incident over 100 years ago have on today?, I think you will find the answer is nothing……….”.

    Where else on these Islands would a twelve year old girl or any other young female teenager get a brick into her face because of her religion, bar possibly a young moslem girl in a National Front area in England, as that young Catholic teenage girl did in the North in the recent past ? This go right back to the foundation of the Orange State that enshrined and ?,made a virtue of sectarianism!

    Name one incident in the South where any member of the Protestant Community much less school children were in any interfered with during the troubles irrespective of what went on in the North because of their religious affiliations?

    It would have simply inconceivable as the past had be indeed become the past; you represent an anti-Republican viewpoint where you want the past to continue and become the future……. some chance!

    History can only become history as such when issues are resolved, a community or Nation can move on and then past events becomes the active concern of historians, not while they are dictating current attitudes and shaping the future!

    The North had a chance to do that and the goodwill of all decent people on these Islands to do so and draw a line under the past with the Good Friday Agreement but instead we got the same Unionist game play as before. The writing may have been on the wall for them but as usual they refused to contemplate any interests or viewpoint other than their own.

    “……. If you think that Sinn Fein will have a first minister here, you are in for a shock – it won’t happen……….”

    Was a time when the only place for a Shinner like Martin McGuiness was On The Run, Internment, Jail or a Grave. Remind me again, what is his current status ?

  • Oldrossorry

    Hello

    I am in agreement with you. I, too, come from a Roman Catholic background (I am English born from Irish parents from the Republic). While I am fully aware of the injustices suffered by NI Roman Catholics I have always felt that SF/IRA hindered progress for equality rather than helped it. SF/IRA are an insult to Irish people. I am disappointed that most NI Roman Catholics are now voting for SF. I do not understand why – NI RCs know who and what SF/IRA are and what they are capable of.
    I have lived in NI and had a very good time there. My mother, having worked for most of her life in England decided to retire to NI. I moved with her to NI in my teens but returned to England in my 20s. She died two years ago but lived for nearly 20 years in NI. As far as I am aware she was very happy there and experienced no discrimination for coming from an RC background.
    NI is a lovely place and, whether SF/IRA like it or not its economic interests anway lie in remaining within the UK.
    Yes, the injustices experienced by NI RCs was cruel but those times are in the past. It is time to leave the past in the past and look forward to a positive future. SF/IRA and supporters should also remember the suffering of protestants during the troubles. The British Army is in general an admirable army. A few bad eggs should not tarnish its whole reputation. Brave British soldiers are dying in Afghanistan to help the people there achieve a better life.
    SF/IRA need to look at the bigger picture.

  • Munsterview

    From Ways Of The Craft Ye Shall Divert ?

    Lets all return to the Masky for the real fun and games !

  • MV

    From ways of The Craft we shall divert?

    Explanation please?

  • Munsterview

    Pip

    Did not get that quite right….. this is the exact quote !

    From Ways Of The Craft Ye Shall Divert ?

    A bit of game play going on here !

    Just letting those concerned know, I know and drawing the attention of those with ‘eyes to see’ to what is happening.

    Do you consider it normal for a poster on any site exposed as a fake to carry on with ‘business as usual’ ? Only two explanations, arrogance or stupidity. Either way it is an insult to the intelligence of the rest, of most of whom, are genuine, to do so !

    Do you think that it was a co-incidence that dormant issue that I had expressed a strong opinions on some week back should be again activated just now ?

    Some months back I used Turgons own words to lay out what he see as the purpose of his contributions to this site in dealing with Republicans who had come from, or were of a millitant background. That same psycology is evident in some other contributions, but other than to note same in passing, it do not normally concern me.

    However when somebody puports to speak on behalf of the Nationalists or Catholic community in a way that at plays to protestant prejudgices and hang ups, then at best that is self indulgent mischief making, at worst it is deliberately stirring the brown stuff for sinister reasons.

    There are more than enough misconceptions in communities up there about the ‘other side’ without reinforcing what is already there or adding to the store!

  • MV

    A person caught out in such a way has three choices: he can apologise for his mistake and move on; he can slink away in defeat or, he can carry on regardless. Number three seems to be the path chosen.

    Coincidence? who knows but nothing here will change a mind once made up.

  • Munsterview

    Agreed !

    I would have thought that it would be a matter for concern for others as well.

    Seems Prod morality is as squashy and flexible as our own when it comes to tolerating lies and deceit…. would not have thought it mind you, but live and learn I suppose!

  • MV

    It is a concern and reading the threads its easy to see courtesy being replaced by impatience from each correspondent!

  • Munsterview

    A little impatience and the odd off day with a poster etc is what gives this medium a human dimension.

    The practices I have isolated and referred to, in the part of one particular poster, go away past that and even mischief making, into what I believe is the realm of the sinister !

    My observations in this matter were not lightly made !

  • MV

    But the poster has not been believed, commenters have made their opinion of the views expressed very clear!

    Unlike you, most people are not certain of some of the nitty gritty. This means they give the benefit of the doubt until their doubts are confirmed and then a few, like me just go away from the ‘problem’ and others are ruthless in their dismissal of the culprit!

    Tomorrow when you are rested and you will need to be rested first, read the threads and see for yourself. It is a long read!

    If I am right (and I am) every ‘conversation’ has ended the same way…

  • jim

    his current status is a british minister

  • lamhdearg

    “However when somebody puports to speak on behalf of the Nationalists or Catholic community in a way that at plays to protestant prejudgices and hang ups,” munster prods dont need maskey they have you.

  • bemused

    Jumping Jesus, is it still 1971? There was a war. People died, sometimes in ways that speak ill of the character of those who killed them. Now the war is over.

    A long time ago, three boys joined the British Army. They didn’t commit any atrocities. They died in the line of duty, and now their families and people who sympathize with their side want to memorialize them. That doesn’t call for the partisanship of Turgon’s original post, nor for the partisanship of some of the Republican responses above, nor for relative body counts of any kind. It doesn’t call for a judgment by anybody on whether or not killing British soldiers in NI in 1971 constituted murder.

    There’s no skin off any nationalist’s back if someone wants to remember these boys, nor off any unionist’s back if we all march around in memory of Bobby Sands. Let it go if you don’t want to start it all over again.

  • Granni Trixie

    The callousness of some of the above is sickening.
    Was this the so called ‘honeypot’ murders? If so then someone I was at school with lured them.
    As a women, this action sickened me too at the time.

    If it is the same case, her own son was shot down robbin in the Republic for the Ra around mid 90s.That is terrible too.
    I wonder have her views changed?

  • JJ Malloy

    Neither of them killed 1/10000s of the people that Guderian’s troops killed.

    Nice choice of name

  • JJ Malloy

    “We as Irish people and of Ancient Gaelic Race are better than this, we always were and we always will be.”

    It must be those Volunteers with more Norman and Viking blood who are responsible for the atrocities of the PIRA.

    The Gaelic members fought the good fight.

  • JJ Malloy

    He is an employee of the British state.

    Not only did his cause fail, but he sold out for power and prestige.