“campaign against me is not really about me at all…”

What’s evident from Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams’ speech at the weekend – along with his attempt to equate criticism of his personal toxic denials of involvement in the Provisional IRA with a campaign of “black propaganda, the lies and smears and disinformation and the efforts to criminalise our struggle” – is his effort to assuage self-declared members of the Provisional IRA. From Adams’ speech

This is bigger than me. This is about us as a republican community, especially in this city of Belfast. This is about our integrity and the just nature of our cause. That is why the Irish Republican Army – Oglaigh na hEireann – was known as the peoples army.

I am proud of that Army and my association with it. I am not a militarist and I never have been but without the IRA the nationalist people of this state would still be on our knees. We would still be second class citizens. So bear in mind that this relentless campaign against me is not really about me at all. It’s about trying to defeat the struggle.

Proud of the human rights violations? When he was “of the view that no military solution was possible…” Adds Not to mention “[keeping] faith with the republican past…”As I said in the linked post

The quote from the letter dated in the 1980s, however, would not seem to be as conclusive as Adams would appear to believe.

And it ignores other elements of the struggle which were deployed – in a “campaign which drew its lessons from previous such periods in Irish history, as well as from contemporary experience around the world.”

And for an alternative analysis of the outworking of that Process™ see this previous post. Or this one.

After all, it might already be too late..

Then, as noted here, there is Gerry Adams’ less than transparent accounting of his brother Liam’s movements.

By way of comparison, as RTÉ reports

Cardinal Seán Brady has indicated that he intends staying on for a considerable time as Archbishop of Armagh.

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  • Drumlins Rock

    aint it lovely to see that SF and the Catholic church have so much in common these days.

  • sdelaneys

    Gerry trys to move the spotlight from himself to ‘the people’ just as the Catholic church called on ‘the people’ to repent for the abuses of the priests, you couldn’t make it up.

  • joeCanuck

    Adams should try ventriloquism as a second career. Can’t be any more difficult than talking outside both sides of your mouth at the same time.

  • mayday

    My my! A new pantomime for Christmas – Gerry in Wonderland! What exactly is Gerry proud off – was he an armchair general puffing his pipe with his slippers on whilst the volunteers sloged it out with the British? I am sure the families of the Loughgal PIRA members, etc are proud of Gerry’s public version of his ‘war’. Has the cock crowed thrice this Easter for Gerry?

  • sdelaneys

    Mayday, in Gerry’s case it’s cock and bull.

  • Alias

    “I am proud of that Army and my association with it. I am not a militarist and I never have been but without the IRA the nationalist people of this state would still be on our knees. We would still be second class citizens. So bear in mind that this relentless campaign against me is not really about me at all. It’s about trying to defeat the struggle.”

    So folks are entitled to form murder gangs if the State doesn’t build free houses for them and increase their dole payments? I wonder will he be putting that spiel into the proposed Bill of Rights? Hardly, since it is only Gerry’s murder gang that has the right to set itself up as an ad hoc civil rights court of grievance where civil rights for Catholics are perused by violating the human rights of Protestants.

    In reality, the civil rights grievances were resolved early on. The outstanding issues were national rights. These were resolved by making a cessation of activity by the murder gangs conditional on the surrender of these national rights, with the deal being that the Catholic tribe must formally renounce their former right to national self-determination and accept the legitimacy of British rule if they wanted the murder gangs to desist. The Catholic tribe was happy to comply since the murder gangs on loyalist side were making life difficult for them.

    Now, of course, they no longer have any right to live within an Irish nation-state, and there are no members of the international community promoting this renounced right on their behalf – mainly because they’d look rather stupid insisting that the Catholic tribe was being denied its former national rights when said tribe no longer asserts such rights and no longer claims to be denied that which it has formally declared it has no entitlement to.

    Gerry, of course, is appealing to the self-interest of the Catholic tribe by seeking to present criticism of his role in protecting paedophiles, murdering women, orphaning children, et al, as being a sectarian attack on the Catholic tribe. He is manipulating them into unwittingly defending him by presenting it as though they are defending themselves by so doing. And, of course, hoping that the protection of the mob will deter any other criticism from being directed at him.

    This will work to some degree because the mob supported the murder gang, believing that the murders delivered their civil rights and believing that they owe the murder gang loyalty for this. Of course, it might be unkind to point out that the murder gang deliberately murdered Protestants in order to provoke the loyalist murder gangs into retaliating against Catholics, thereby leading the Catholics to believe that they needed the Shinners to protect them from the loyalists.

  • Michaelhenry

    loyalists followed provos in decommissin there weopons,good at following the loyalists,but the provos lead.

  • Halfer

    “loyalists followed provos in decommissin there weopons,good at following the loyalists,but the provos lead.”

    Can someone please take this child out of here.

  • Alias

    True, but ’tis the way in conflicts: once one side surrenders, the other side packs up and goes home.

    The loyalists, like the Shinners, merely handed their weapons back to the State so that the State could destroy the evidence of serious criminal offences without forensic examination, thereby denying justices to the victims of those weapons.

  • Michaelhenry

    your so called state alias never got an ounce from the provos,never got a bullet,read what is wrote,not what you want to believe.

  • USA

    Alias, that is utter drivel (#6 above) and not even worthy of a response.

    Michaelhenry, decommissioning was carried out under international supervision. You and Alias live in a fantasy world.

  • Michaelhenry

    usa is listening to journalist pillow talk,me i read the agreement,i hope the slow people will one day do so.

  • USA

    Whatever!

  • Michaelhenry

    good to see usa has not got a glue about whats going to happin.

  • [quote][i]True, but ‘tis the way in conflicts: once one side surrenders, the other side packs up and goes home.[/i] ….. Posted by Alias on Apr 06, 2010 @ 01:08 AM[/quote]

    How very encouraging to read/see Alias and Michaelhenry in agreement with whenever the war is won is to continue fighting a crime against humanity and violent innocent death thereafter, premeditated murder and an act of psychopathic state terrorism when support is covered in military guise?

    And what do Slugger Stalwarts make of this heroic pornography? …… http://www.collateralmurder.com/

    [quote][/i]“I am proud of that Army and my association with it. I am not a militarist and I never have been but without the IRA the nationalist people of this state would still be on our knees. We would still be second class citizens. So bear in mind that this relentless campaign against me is not really about me at all. It’s about trying to defeat the struggle.”[/i] ….. Gerry Adams[/quote]

    That statement would seem to reveal that whereas that Army’s volunteers believed and fought as oppressed freedom fighters and paramilitary soldiers for equal rights to all, Mr Adams was the crazy terrorist who played them off against neighbours for his own gain …. and to hide/assuage his own suppressed personal family pains …….. whilst every pathetic self-serving Church stood deaf mute to the carnage and madness around them and within their own traumatised and petrified flocks, pouring virtual fuel on the fires with their tacit Silent Support of Sectarian Schutzstaffel on one side of the coin and their No Surrender rabble rousing rhetoric on the other, for it takes two idiots to tango and lead the ballroom in a merry dance.

    However, notwithstanding all of that and everything else in the past which has so many baying for swift justice and/or sweet revenge, the only thing that really matters is the Future and the struggles which “authority” is going to inflict upon everyone and everything, for they seem incapable of providing the people with needs and feeds, wedded as they are to the Corrupt and Corrupting Structures of the Past for Perverse and Subversive Global Control.

    Man is most definitely the most stupid of crazy dangerous animals and none are more stupidly crazy and dangerous that those who would claim authority to lead, but who would just follow the old perverted and subverted rules of engagement and memoranda of understanding.

    Time for a Radical and Fundamental Peaceful Change, MeThinks, with the World Banking System providing an Inexhaustible Loop Funding Stream with the Accumulated World Debt transferred to New AIgents as Working Credit for Creative Spend ……. or will they think to put someone at the head of a committee to decide on who is to benefit from such largesse and thus create a blocking facility, which means that they are again the Same Problem stopping Progress. Which has One then Asking ….”Who is the Present Head of the Global Banking System stopping World Progress by Vetting and Vetoing who gets what and where and how, for there are Others with A.N.Other Operating System Hosting AI with Beta Peace Plans and the Returns on their IT Investments leave Anything and Everything currently running on Earth, Floundering and Swamped in their ProgramMING Project Wakes, and they would claim their Inalienable Right to Unlimited Funds through an Always Available Line of Cleared Authorised Credit.

  • wild turkey

    “loyalists followed provos in decommissin there weopons,good at following the loyalists,but the provos lead.”

    Can someone please take this child out of here.

    Halfer,

    it is my understanding that the resident facility and associated programme encourages clients to communicate with the “outside world” for therapeutic reasons. admittedly, a cursory review of past and current comments might lead one to question the efficacy of said therapy.

    indeed comments such as
    “good to see usa has not got a glue about whats going to happin.”
    could lead one to question whether the resident facility adheres to rigorous dangerous substance storage protocols and practices

    but wtf, it makes hilarious reading.

  • [quote][i]it is my understanding that the resident facility and associated programme encourages clients to communicate with the “outside world” for therapeutic reasons. admittedly, a cursory review of past and current comments might lead one to question the efficacy of said therapy. [/i]…. Posted by wild turkey on Apr 06, 2010 @ 08:04 AM[/quote]

    wild turkey,

    Others would posit that your comment above, which would appear to pour scorn on contributors here, would actually admirably prove the efficacy of the programme, for most probably/possibly in the past they would have been looking for those others in the real world who would scorn them, to do them significant physical harm, and all for holding a view which they did not agree with, and did not understand how it came to be held.

    The very fact that they can share what they believe to be true and can accept that it may be false and a planted reality to fool them into a crazy action desired by another with another completely hidden and dark secret agenda which they dare not share, would show more intelligence than is the usually accepted sad norm ….. and surely something to be encouraged and mentored and monitored for continuing better mental health in a society which is without equal and beyond compare and doggedly decided to ensure that such Troubles as they have endured and conquered are never ever again visited upon anyone with the excuse of ignorance in not knowing the reason why.

    [quote][i]indeed comments such as
    “good to see usa has not got a glue about whats going to happin.”
    could lead one to question whether the resident facility adheres to rigorous dangerous substance storage protocols and practices

    but wtf, it makes hilarious reading. [/i][/quote] …. Whereas that may or may not be true, and substance use and abuse is part and parcel of Life nowadays [and the lack of education on that issue, which might be because of a fear in glamourising it, is a national disgrace] the humour of the Irish is also in a league of its own and making fools’ of oneself is no disgrace especially whenever so many make a good living out of it. And whenever you are only a number, how can you take anything seriously and even yourself too seriously. Here today, gone tomorrow and life goes on, and that should tell you how important anyone is.

  • CatinHat

    This is about our integrity and the just nature of our cause.

    Proud of the human rights violations?

    As here, too much of the moral case against the IRA is given in terms of the immorality of their acts and not the immorality of their cause. Forcing NI into a united Ireland without consent was immoral and Sinn Fein has conceded that fact in practice. That is what they had to concede to bring peace. They didn’t have to concede that murder is wrong.

    The Nazis were not in the wrong because they committed individual human rights violations, but because their very raison d’etre was evil (e.g. lebensraum in the east). Such was the case with the PIRA also. However respecting of human rights the PIRA had been they’d have still been in the wrong. They could have pursued a united Ireland without consent as peacefully as Gandhi and they’d still have been evil.

  • Cynic2

    Oh isn’t it good to see all these new names. Has Connolly House installed some new terminals for the election? The posts certainly read like law or politics students on work experience

  • granni trixie

    I am working my way through Maloneys book but already see why Paul Bew says in its Foreward that it is significant for what it tells us about the thinking of people centrally involved in the conflict.
    Hughes comes across as thinking about use of guns, hiding out with locals as a kind of boys own game. Not as one who at the time at least had the imagination to understand the impact of violent acts. Now it seems that Gerry too does not seem to have the capacity for empathy,driven by self interest. But now at least we know why he is screwed up.

  • In any conflict the victor can always find justification for his actions. Problem with the north is, since there are no outright winners all sides get to write the history. It is interesting!

    Gerry Adams has said he was not in the IRA for so long he may even believe it. He was giving orders, sending people out to kill and maim, but rarely seeing the results anywhere except on tv.

    His past is catching up with him. The spotlight will I am sure, as time goes on, be focussed on others just as culpable.

    The other interesting point is he seems to think the south would have welcomed this ‘peoples army’ with open arms, thats fine in theory but I am not sure he is right. No country can tolerate different defense forces with very different agendas.

    The peace has left many unresolved issues and a lot of pain but at least people have the opportunity to talk their way through it all, and it should never be forgotten, that is largely due to Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness.

  • Halfer

    “This is about our integrity and the just nature of our cause.

    Proud of the human rights violations?

    As here, too much of the moral case against the IRA is given in terms of the immorality of their acts and not the immorality of their cause. Forcing NI into a united Ireland without consent was immoral and Sinn Fein has conceded that fact in practice. That is what they had to concede to bring peace. They didn’t have to concede that murder is wrong.

    The Nazis were not in the wrong because they committed individual human rights violations, but because their very raison d’etre was evil (e.g. lebensraum in the east). Such was the case with the PIRA also. However respecting of human rights the PIRA had been they’d have still been in the wrong. They could have pursued a united Ireland without consent as peacefully as Gandhi and they’d still have been evil.”

    Your totally ignoring the fact that partition was forced upon the majority in Ireland after a pretty atrocious war.

  • Michaelhenry

    catinhat talks about the peacefull gandhi, he was so peacefull he agreed to the partition of india,not a good role model is he.

  • Cynic2

    Oh I just cannot resist. The hypocrisy levels is just so high. I have to Fisk it.

    “It is a day to remember, to honour, and to celebrate all those republicans of our generation and other generations who gave their lives in the struggle for Irish freedom and justice.”

    ….not including of course all the people including innocent men women and children whom they killed and maimed, nor does it include the touts who were and are still active in the movement and betrayed their comrades

    “Belfast republicans are proud of our patriot dead; we are proud of their families; we are proud of our struggle and we are proud of our history.”

    …..well most of our Patriot Dead, except of course those like Darkie Hughes who turned into hopeless alcoholics and useless, lying, lumps of shite whose memories were so befuddled that they got names all mixed up and whom we disown

    ….. but at least we are proud of the official version of history (or should that be the ‘Provisional’ version ….ho ho ho) and I deeply regret that, because I was never a member of the IRA, I don’t know that much about it other than what I have read or written in books; and I certainly nothing about kidnapping mothers of 10 children nor mysterious deaths in prison, although we remain proud of those things as well.

    “Belfast is where the United Irish men and women committed to ending the connection with Britain.
    This is the city where James Connolly organised the working men and women, and particularly the women against sweat shop exploitation. In 1916 he went from the Falls Road to join with the Irish Volunteers, the Irish Citizen Army, Cumann na mBan and Na Fianna to take on the might of the British Empire.”

    …. and like us he lost totally and led hundreds to their needless deaths, but let’s not dwell on that now. At least in our generation out of our defeat, with the help of our friends in the British Government, Ireland and America, we were forced to accept the great victory of getting Ministers’ seats and salaries in the British Administration in the hated Stormont. From there we now rule over you, the little people, who can at least now look up to True Republicans (TM) in office, and my office is very nice I can promise you!

    “This is the city where Sean MacDiarmada joined the Irish Republican Brotherhood. This is the city where Countess Markievicz founded Na Fianna hÉireann. This is the city visited often by Padraig Pearse and the leaders of the 1916 Rising as they worked with County Antrim gaeilgeoirí and home rulers before going on to become republicans.
    This is the city of Maire Drumm and of other brave Sinn Féin activists.”

    …. of course, all of it was pointless and all of them are now long dead thank God so there cant be much of a challenge to us. And of course, they won a free Ireland which, thanks to our ceaseless efforts, in 1995 in a free vote decided by 97% to 2% to abandon the territorial claim to this hell hole we have helped create in the North

    “The city of Mairead Farrell and Dorothy Maguire and all the other patriotic women of our time.”

    …. there are, of course, many others too numerous to mention, some of whom are confused, befuddled, off message or whose views may no longer agree with mine so let me move quickly on now

    “This is the city of Bobby Sands and Joe McDonnell and Ciaran Doherty and all their brave freedom fighting comrades of the Irish Republican Army.
    We honour them all. In particular we honour those who lie in these republican plots and in this cemetery. They are not just heroes and heroines. They are our friends, our comrades, our neighbours, our family members.”

    …… they may have been murderers, bombers and child killers but they were OUR murderers bombers and child killers

    “Like the men and women of 1916 they knew the dangers they faced; the military capacity of the British state, and the subservience of sections of the Irish political establishment and media.”

    …… the dangers posed by the touts in our movement many of whom I had placed in positions of authority and , above all, the danger of going on hunger strike then not being told in time of a deal on the table so that they died in vain for a concession already won. But hey, you know, that’s politics for you and we can be proud of them, as they undoubtedly would be of us.

    “But they were determined to bring about change.To end centuries of British involvement in Ireland and to construct a republic in which citizens would be treated fairly and equitably.”

    …. Like us, they failed of course. But I am sure that were they to return to day and look at us in Stormont, the officers, titles, suits, Ministerial cars they would say to you now that their short lives were truly a price worth paying for our great step forward and for the equality you now have to pay the same taxes and vote in the same elections to choose us as your representatives in perpetuity.

  • Michaelhenry

    cynic2 will next talk about the defeated british army in iraq,and how british leaders sold out the british dead,they died so that the british army could run from the fight,who were the touts that sold out the paras.

  • Cynic2

    Michael

    That’s an easy one…..they were the Labour party who sent young men into battle ill equipped, unsupported an with no clear strategy. And if you want to know what the volunteers in the UK think of Brown read this:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1263619/Johnson-Beharry-Victoria-Cross-hero-refuses-shake-Gordon-Browns-hand-disrespect.html

    Indeed the Labour Party have long supported your friends in Sinn Fein and the parallels in terms of the competence of the two parties is astounding.

    By the way, aren’t you due back to school soon? Has nurse given you your medication this morning?

  • Michaelhenry

    cynic2 has agreed with me that the british leaders have sold out the british army,those leaders and sinn fein must be good friends.

  • The important thing about any army to its generals and its governments, is not that it is made up of thousands of people who must be listened to and cared for, but that it is a useful tool thats all it is. Few armies have been well cared for after the war, and we see from some of its ex members the republican army is no different.

    The support for ex members of all armies comes from other ex members and from their own societies. Generals tend to turn up at important events, make a speech, then bugger off back to their lives of relative comfort, relative that is to the poor sod who lost friends and who remembers too well the pain inflicted by all sides.

    I hope all ex republican members have the support of family and community.

  • CatinHat

    @Michaelhenry

    catinhat talks about the peacefull gandhi, he was so peacefull he agreed to the partition of india,not a good role model is he.

    You support a united India / Pakistan / Bangladesh? A pretty niche opinion.

    In any case I would (say) have no problem calling an Indian who supported the annexation of Bangladesh without consent evil too, irrespective of the level of violence they employed or did not employ.

    @halfer

    Your totally ignoring the fact that partition was forced upon the majority in Ireland after a pretty atrocious war.

    The independence of Ireland was no less forced upon the United Kingdom after a pretty atrocious war. But the justice rests on consent, and the people of the south withdrew their consent from British rule just as those in the north withdrew their consent to Dublin rule. You cannot have it both ways.

  • Greenflag

    ‘I am proud of that Army and my association with it. I am not a militarist and I never have been but without the IRA the nationalist people of this state would still be on our knees. ‘

    Very true .

    ‘We would still be second class citizens.’

    Even truer .

    ‘ So bear in mind that this relentless campaign against me is not really about me at all. It’s about trying to defeat the struggle.”

    Most true of all .

    Adams is just like the leader/leaders of any nationalist or republican element in Irish history – none of them were saints nor could they ever be. Had they been the country would never have won it’s independence .

    The ‘authorities’ i.e those loyal to Britain having a permanent role in the governance of Northern Ireland or in earlier history of Ireland have always used any and every weapon they could find to discredit Irish political opposition. From Tone to John Mitchell to Parnell to Casement and to Pearse (with the assistance of Irish ‘revisionistas’

    On Easter Monday we should at least remember that much of our history .

  • Michaelhenry

    what about articles 2 and 3 catinhat.

  • CatinHat

    However let’s put the moralism to one side at the moment and just look at the substance of what I am saying, Adam’s says,

    “I am proud of that Army and my association with it. I am not a militarist and I never have been but without the IRA the nationalist people of this state would still be on our knees. We would still be second class citizens. So bear in mind that this relentless campaign against me is not really about me at all. It’s about trying to defeat the struggle.”

    This is revisionism. The PIRA, rightly or wrongly (you may say rightly, I wrongly, whatever) was centrally about using force to unite Ireland against the wishes of the majority in NI. Sure the northern state was demonised for this and that treatment of nationalists but that was, to use a criminal court analogy “aggravation”, not the actual crime on the charge sheet. The “crime” was the existence of Northern Ireland. The IRA, for whatever reason, abandoned it’s central justification.

    Now perhaps the justification for that is the 1998 referendum in which the people on the island as a whole voted that NI should stay in the UK unless and until it voted otherwise. That is indeed a powerful argument against the present dissidents. However what had changed? Had the people of Ireland as a whole ever supported annexation without consent, or did this just change overnight in 1998?

  • Greenflag

    pippakin ,

    ‘Few armies have been well cared for after the war, and we see from some of its ex members the republican army is no different.’

    Very true . Many of the American homeless and ‘disturbed’ are ex military veterans who either could not adjust to civvy street or were ‘warped’ due post traumatic stress disorder . The ‘haves’ in American society wave the flags but they don’t die in the trenches .

    ‘The support for ex members of all armies comes from other ex members and from their own societies. Generals tend to turn up at important events, make a speech, then bugger off back to their lives of relative comfort, relative that is to the poor sod who lost friends and who remembers too well the pain inflicted by all sides.’

    That about sums it up .

    The Adams ‘baiting’ will have it’s reward at the hustings . It may not be the ‘reward’ the baiters are hoping for .

  • Greenflag

    Gerry Adams will hold his seat at the Brit GE. He does have serious questions to answer, but these are not, or only loosely related to the Ra, and they will not be asked or answered this side of the election.

    I do think he is a liability in debate. I hope if there is a leaders debate S/F will choose Martin McGuinness.

  • Alias

    “Now perhaps the justification for that is the 1998 referendum in which the people on the island as a whole voted that NI should stay in the UK unless and until it voted otherwise. That is indeed a powerful argument against the present dissidents. However what had changed? Had the people of Ireland as a whole ever supported annexation without consent, or did this just change overnight in 1998?” – CatinHat

    What changed Irish minds to make them accept the legitimacy of “the cruellest wrong”? Prior to the sectarian murder campaign in Northern Ireland, nothing. The position was that Ireland was comprised of one nation with one right to national self-determination.

    After the sectarian murder campaign, the Irish people didn’t want to annex Northern Ireland, and accepted the legitimacy of partition. The position was then that there were two nations on the island of Ireland, and that each nation had a separate right to national self-determination.

    So it wasn’t the “people of Ireland as a whole” who voted to legitimise British sovereignty in that there was not one act of self-determination but two acts of self-determination in two separate states by two separate nations, both of whom voted to accept two separate agreements.

    Since it is now accepted that there are two separate nations then it is also accepted that there can never be unity between them since, by definition, two is not and can never be one.

    British sovereignty could never have been legitimised without the sectarian murder campaign in Northern Ireland, and that was the value of it to those who sponsored it.

  • Greenflag

    pippakin,

    IMHO -They all have serious questions to answer as has virtually every ‘leadership’ element party/church etc in Irish political (north and south ) religious , and financial life .

    In terms of the near and medium term future for the NI economy and polity the election in NI might as well be a simple census count . The decision in Britain may have some more import for world economic recovery in that Gordon Brown at least sees the need for global financial reform without which any recovery will be shortlived and may lead to an even worse relapse . Currency speculators are already gathering 🙁

  • Michaelhenry

    its high time that alias actually reads the good friday agreement and not what some journalists opinion of it is.

  • Henry94

    I’m happy but not surprised that Adams sees the attacks in their proper context and clearly has no intention of deserting his post or being deflected from the work.

  • Greenflag

    Alias ,

    If politics were mathematics your ‘logic’ might make sense but as human beings are not always rational nor perfectly efficient in their thinking or in their economic actions and even less so in their market behaviour in a world of imperfect information -your ‘logic’ and assumptive definitions above are to use an old fashioned word ‘codawallop’ !

    ‘ two is not and can never be one.’

    In the world of mathematics two can be divided by two and it becomes one . In the world of ‘politics’ ‘E pluribus unum ‘ ( out of many one)
    is you may be aware the motto of the USA .

    ‘British sovereignty could never have been legitimised without the sectarian murder campaign in Northern Ireland, and that was the value of it to those who sponsored it.’

    Complete and utter shite . Drivel . British sovereignty in Northern Ireland rests solely and simply on the wishes of the majority of people in NI to remain under British rule until such time as a majority of people in NI decide otherwise.

    The Irish ‘national’ struggle will continue until there is a UI or until a majority of the nationalist /republican element in NI are prepared to settle for a fair repartition of NI .

  • Alias

    Greenflag:

    “Irish [b]OR[/b] British or Both”

    Two, my poor delusional bacteria-infested friend, can never be one. 😉

    There is only one right to self-determination per nation. The state is the sovereign territorial entity by which that nation’s right to self-determination may be exercised. Where there are two nations then there must be two states if both of those nations are to exercise their respective rights to self-determination.

    That is the reality, and will remain the reality. You have two nations on the “island of” Ireland, and both of those nations that a right to self-determination and a state wherein it is exercised.

    It isn’t possible for two nations to “share” one state and for both nations to have a right to self-determination. They must have a nation-state that is dedicated to the purpose of allowing them to exercise their right to self-determination.

    [i]“All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.”[/i]

    Is it any wonder the muppets were so easily led to renounce that which they have no understanding of?

    “The Irish nation hereby affirms its inalienable, indefeasible, and sovereign right to choose its own form of Government, to determine its relations with other nations, and to develop its life, political, economic and cultural, in accordance with its own genius and traditions.”

    I don’t think it mentions anything about another nation having a veto over the exercise of that right, but correct me if I am wrong.

  • Michaelhenry

    two nations,one rugby national team.

  • Alias

    Two nations, two states. Rugby teams are not sovereign territorial entities, my friend. But that is a good example of how the attempts by two different nations to share things inevitably results in the cancelation of national rights. They only manage to share when they veto each other’s national identity and symbols of same, e.g. flag, anthem, etc.

  • Michaelhenry

    two nations,one good friday agreement.

  • Greenflag

    Alias ,

    So where does the IMF feature in your mythical world of self determination ? When the Indonesian banking system was in a mess in 19997/98 the USA/IMF told the Indonesian government what they could and could’nt do. Sovereignty ? More explicitly they told the Indonesian Government NOT to bail out the banks as that would set a precedent . The Americans did’nt follow their own advice last year . In a world where the US dollar is the global reserve currency no nation/state is truly sovereign not Ireland -not the UK not France nor Italy. And even the USA is entirely dependent on the Chinese and other East Asian and South Asian countries continuing to buy US T bills to support the dollar while the USA complains of an undervalued Chinese currency while it seeks comparative advantage by keeping it’s interest rates low to prevent a total free fall of the Wall St stock market and another even deeper recession .

    If and when the world’s elected financial leaders summon up the balls to tackle the global reserve currency issue that’s about the only time you’ll see ‘national sovereignty’ actually meaning anything bar than empty words and even then no nation/state alone can make the ‘reforms ‘ needed to ensure the world is never again held to ransom by the crooked bankers and the financial con men that foisted this ‘made in america ‘ crisis on the entire world !

    Northern Ireland matters a shite in the overall and whether it’s ruled from Dublin or London will make precious little difference to the lives of most people in the here and now and even for the foreseeable future .

    Neo con capitalism has failed the world economy. But the crooked bankers of New York and London are still hoping they can return to the good old days of ripping off the public with usurious rates and paying themselves as much as they want .

    They will get theirs sooner or later if western politicians don’t or won’t or can’t summon up the courage to re regulate and force the financial criminals of the banking industry to reform .

  • Greenflag

    ‘two nations,one good friday agreement.’
    ‘two nations,one rugby national team.’

    Even better

    Two/Four/Five nations -Five international soccer teams.

  • Greenflag

    ‘I don’t think it mentions anything about another nation having a veto over the exercise of that right, but correct me if I am wrong.’

    You are wrong . That’s exactly why the GFA was agreed by the Irish Government and SF and only accepted by about half the NI Unionist electorate. The practical facts of political life in Northern Ireland whether or not one chooses to believe or not believe in any two nations theory is that the vast majority of the NI unionist population wish to remain part of the UK. Until that situation changes there will not be any UI or until such time as the demographics in NI change the current status quo.

    All other gumpf about ‘sovereignty’ /’vetos’ is meaningless spiffle . There can be no ‘militaristic’ ousting of ‘unionism ‘ from Northern Ireland and the people of the Republic are about as interested in annexing NI as they are of annexing Outer Mongolia . Apart from a tiny minority of extremists who believe that only the gun ‘works’ . You forget that though SF is now associated with it’s paramilitary underpinnings of the 1970’s and 1980’s there is , was and always will be a large voice in Ireland which eschews ‘violence’ as the means necessary to either win independence in the past or to unite the country in the future .

    The fact that SF won in the 1920’s in the Republic is more due to the ‘failures’ of HMG at the time to be seen as even handed in the ‘independence ‘ debate and their reneging on the promise made to Irish Home Rulers . Instead of having semi autonomous Irish self government within the UK the British government of the time ensured that the militaristic wing of SF would triumph .

    They say history repeats itself and while it may not seem to be exact in every detail we in Ireland have been here before and we’ll be here again no doubt .

  • Actually I think Rugby is quite a good example.

    I suppose you guys have heard of what was the British Lions and HEY PRESTO became The British & Irish Lions – and appear to be living happily ever after…

  • Cynic2

    Ireland was never ‘one nation’ before the Brits came. It was a collection of warring clans. This Irish golden age nonsense is a myth and the genetic record shows that we are genetically identical to the Brits. There is no separate Irish race. Almost certainly there never was. It was invented in the 19th Century by romantics

  • Cynic2

    Im inclined to agree with you. This neutral, peace loving nation is a recent invention. Historically the Celts were a very successful warrior race.

  • aquifer

    Thanks for the reminder Cynic2. Uniforms, Gunboats, Mythology, a flag. The Brits have a nation state I want one too, and lets shoot some Irish policemen to get it.

  • aquifer

    Lets shoot some Irish policemen to get it?

    You are sick! You belong in a padded room with a nice white jacket, with no arm holes.

  • old school

    cynic 2 The struggle for Irish sovereignty is not a race war.
    Ulster Protestants were the first to try and break the connection with England.
    It was based more on the French and American Revolutions. Nothing romantic about it, and nothing to do with genetics or race.

  • West Sider

    To go back the original point in this blog which focused on Adams’ declaration on how this media onslaught is not really about him at all…

    The ‘hostile media’ (think The Sunday Tribune whose Northern editor has been driven to the point of madness in her hatred of Sinn Fein and those who elect them – see the soft, sympathetic pieces on those who would kill members of that community – Billy Wright et al/dissident republicans, those who would justify it – Willie Frazer, and those who would bring violent forces into conflict with that community – again, the dissies), and the unionists and their fellow travellers, the dissies, have all spent energies on trying to get Adams out.

    They’ve been unsucessful. And in the forthcoming election, I can’t be certain, but I’ll hazard a guess that all this Get Adams stuff will result in nothing more than another landslide for the SF president.

    Even youngsters – who get the vote for the first time – will listen to and be directed by their older siblings and their parents who will do for the Beard what the southern electorate did for Bertie when under the same pressure.

    And as for subliminally wishing for violent actions against that community, where do these commentators go from there.

    I could suggest somewhere – somewhere white and padded – but I won’t.

  • Alias

    Greenflag, I don’t think you understood correctly, but that might have something to do with your extra copy of chromosome 21, so I’ll make the appropriate allowances for that. 😉

    The right to self-determination is stated in the Article 1 of Bunreacht na hÉireann as “The Irish nation hereby affirms its inalienable, indefeasible, and sovereign right to choose its own form of Government, to determine its relations with other nations, and to develop its life, political, economic and cultural, in accordance with its own genius and traditions.”

    The constitution is the highest form of law in the State, and no court or government can overrule it. It declares very clearly that no other nation can have a right of veto over the right to the Irish nation to “develop its life, political, economic and cultural, in accordance with its own genius and traditions.”

    If you are attempting to argue that the 19th Amendment is incompatible with Article 1 of Bunreacht na hÉireann, then I suggest that you take your case to the Supreme Court and have them duly strike down the 19th Amendment.

    In addition of being protected by the first article of the Irish constitution, the right to self-determination is protected under international law in the UN’s ICCPR and ICESCR.

    It is the right of sovereign nations to determine their own affairs. The clue to the meaning [b]self[/b]-determination is highlighted in bold. The ‘self’ refers to the nation which has the right to self-determination, and does not extend a right of censorship or veto over its exercise to another nation. If it did, then it would not be a right to [b]self[/b]-determination, child.

    In regard to your horrid, longwinded waffle about the IMF, mythical neo-cons, secret Jewish financing of the Easter Bunny, and wotnot: what has that got to do with the right to self-determination? Any treaty that the sovereign nation engages in carries with it the right of repeal. If it did not, then the nation would not be sovereign.

    The state is the sovereign territorial entity wherein the nation exercises its right to self-determination. As the United Nations puts it: “All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.”

    A state that is “shared” between two nations simply means that neither nation can exercise its right self-determination, since neither nation has its own state. I see no reason at all why the Irish nation should give up its right self-determination and its sovereign claim to the territory of Ireland simply for the dubious pleasure of being vetoed by a foreign nation.

    That is simply a foreign competitor state seeking to undermine Irish nationalism from within by promoting self-censorship of that nation’s “political, economic and cultural” life so that it is only expressed within the parameters of British nationalism. This internal self-destruction of the Irish nation is then sold to that nation as Irish nationalism, i.e. promoting unity, rather than something that is designed to do the opposite.

    By censoring their own culture and identity so that it is less offensive to the other nation which defines itself by not being Irish, it is hoped that this will allow the smooth reintegration of a united Ireland within the UK, thereby fully extending the sovereignty over institutions of the Irish state that was given to the UK in the British Irish Agreement.

  • redhugh78

    How will it feel for all the SF haters when SF are the largest party after the general election?

    No coincidence that the mudslinging at Adams and SF is ratcheting up is it?

  • Alias

    I think most folks accept by now that the Catholic tribe will vote along sectarian lines, voting for whichever party they beleive delivers them most state-supplied “goodies and sweeties” as British citizens within the legitimsed British state. The same, of course, holds for the Protestant tribe.

  • Munsterview

    ‘……….The independence of Ireland was no less forced upon the United Kingdom after a pretty atrocious war. But the justice rests on consent, and the people of the south withdrew their consent from British rule just as those in the north withdrew their consent to Dublin rule. You cannot have it both ways…..’

    Posted by CatinHat on Apr 06, 2010 @ 12:21 PM

    But you apparently can!

    If memory serves me right Sinn Fein/Nationalists won twenty-eight counties not twenty -six in the 1918 election. That seems to be an inconvenient truth that you ignore in your desertions about six counties ‘ opting out ‘.

    Ireland had a treaty and partition forced on it under the treat ‘ of immediate and terrible war’ and at that time most of Ireland was so sick of the Auxies, Tans British Army and British duplicity that a large section of the populance, Unionist and Nationalist just wanted peace at any price!

    How tolerated would it have been in our own time if the full details of the G.F.A. were published on the morning it was to be voted on ?. It would of course be totally unacceptable even in this instant news era, never mind back then.

    This is exactly the choice the Irish People got with the settlement articles, published on newspapers on the morning of the election in times of primitive communications and it was one of the least disputable stunts pulled by the Government of the so called Mother Of Parliaments in forcing partition on the Irish People at the point of a bayonet. You may forget but there are some in this Island that will never forget…. and make sure others do not do so either.

    As to the Brits having any concerns for the ‘Ulster People’, Churchill showed his contempt what he thought of their views and them collectively when he offered to trade the lot including the Six Counties to Dev prior to the Second World War for the use of a few dilapidated galvanized sheds and adjacent Port facilities.

  • Jimmy Sands

    “their parents who will do for the Beard what the southern electorate did for Bertie when under the same pressure.”

    Re-elect him and then force him out next year?

  • Greenflag

    Alias ,

    ‘the state is the sovereign territorial entity wherein the nation exercises its right to self-determination. As the United Nations puts it: “All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.’

    Lovely words . Tell them to any of the world’s underdeveloped economies or those countries which have been laid waste by the greed and rapaciousness of the Wall St financial con men and their IMF partners in world impoverishment and they will laugh in your face .

    Tell them to to the Palestinians or Gazans and you will hear that the biggest obstacle to their claiming their ‘right’ is not the UN but the Israeli Army.

    ”what has that(IMF) got to do with the right to self-determination? Any treaty that the sovereign nation engages in carries with it the right of repeal. If it did not, then the nation would not be sovereign.’

    You can have all the rights you want or all the written constitutions or armies you want but if the IMF says jump so called ‘sovereign states ‘ jump . Just watch how high Britain’s politicians will jump after this election as currency speculators move in for another kill . Mammon rules and the world’s bankers decide the fate of nations.Even more so now than in the past because the elected politicians in all the so called democracies are ‘terrified’ of the swine .

    We have moved a long way from the world of 1916 and the age of worldwide territorial empires . Your political analysis and even worse your ‘economics’ seems unable to grasp that actuality . No man is an island and neither is any country . We are all interdependent .

    There have been some ‘states’ historically who have tried to put ‘national sovereignty ‘ at the top of their priority list . They include such well known success stories as Enver Hoxha’s Albania , and Kim Il Sung’s North Korea 😉

    I recommend you read Joe Stiglitz’s “Free Fall’ and educate yourself as to the difference between how the real world works for people all over the world , instead of how it’s supposed to work as concocted by the far right ideologues of neo conservative ‘robber’ capitalism , and those like yourself still adhering to outmoded notions of the ‘nation state ‘ uber alles .

  • Neil

    … Adams stuff will result in nothing more than another landslide for the SF president.

    You really couldn’t get a safer bet. If SF were going to lose a huge number of voters in WB it would have happened already, I expected them to lose some votes when Marty McG used the word ‘traitors’ on the telly bax, but I was wrong. If I had a farm I would bet it on Gerry getting elected in some style.

  • seandubh

    In reply to Alias murder gangs were set up by the British,republicans did not blow up silent valley.or murder Peter Ward,or Scullion,they wanted republicans and Catholics to behave.Will nobody in this part of Ireland admit that wrong was done on both sides,and will no Protestant with two up and two down a loo in the yard admit that Stormont did not give a damn about them as long as they voted them into power.Get a grip get real,a protestant state for a protestant people was living on borrowed time.Its time us people demaned our land for £5.00 lets see if we get it.

  • Munsterview

    seandubh

    Why stop at that! How many streets were burned out and people made homeless when The Sticks sealed dumps and decamped South Of The Border. I can still see the Late Maura Drumm’s rage when on her way to Dublin seeking assistance, she stopped into a Dundalk Hotel. Behind she had left exhausted Republicans veterans and some teens, the few that arms could be found for attempting to defend their areas with short-arms against machine guns!

    In the hotel she found virtually the entire Officials Belfast Command sitting down in style to a steak dinner! Those with long memories will also recall IRA….. I Ran Away appearing in walls at this particular time. The Sticks were prepared to allow God only knows how many streets to be burned out and people murdered or driven out of their homes rather than fire a shot in defense and appear to be sectarian. The start of this War was a very much one sided affair.

    ‘The Dark’ was a fine and true Vol. he will be always be well respected in Republican circles for what he did. However his is not the only story out there. When these stories of the early days from the rest of ‘The Dogs’ in particular become available, then another more complete picture will emerge. Ironic that when the means to get the stories out there are available that those who should be encouraging it are like the Sticks reneging defense of their areas back then, are now keeping stum rather than provoke the ‘other side’

    This is not agreement, it is appeasement ! How many now remember R.I.C. Heavy Caliber Browning Machine Guns with armor piercing bullets firing straight through houses, in the front walls and out the back, including bedrooms some with children asleep? How a proportionate response was this against a few antiquated revolvers?

    The Provo campaign did not arise in a vacuum, nor did the attitudes that fueled it exist without reason. There is no need for Republicans to re-write history but just to write it all and a different picture will quickly emerge. Unlike those of us dealing with the reality of those times back then, the media cordon sanatir is long breached and truth can out.

  • seandubh

    Munsterview,I do not disagree with you that when the pogroms stated nationalists were practically devoid of weapons to defend thier areas.I was making a political point,what the Proovos have achied now the Republican Clubs advocated in the early 70s.The difference being timing,when the people got war weary the ceasefire was announced.As for B rendan Hughes all I said was I would have preferred these revealtions said when he was alive,now the have no credence,and I am sure he would have been supported.Gerry Adams deserves credit,I said that and believe that,no other leader could have politicised Sinn Fein they way he has managed.I prefer winning an Unitied Ireland through the ballot box,the armalite has had its day.