Mitre confusion

Isn’t it staggering how a bunch of guys who are supposed to be able to speak ex cathedra or at least with some authority find it so difficult to string two effective words together? All they’re doing is exposing their own confusion and incompetence. Had Rowan Williams altered the single word “all” and substituted “ a lot of “ he would have been home and dry. You can hear from the tape he was about to use other words anyway and changed his mind in the last milli-second. The BBC didn’t help by failing to point out that Williams had partly apologised for his remarks 36 hours before they were broadcast in context, but informed listeners wll have made their own adjustments. The context made no difference anyway. Next, instead of developing their own position on the impact of the Catholic crisis on Christianity in Ireland, the Church of Ireland leaders fell over themselves to gang up on the presiding bishop of their own Communion for his minor contribution, using weasel words like “unhelpful.” Unhelpful to whom? The trade union of compromised bishops? Finally we have a second Vatican fool in almost as many days grossly offending people of conscience far more than Williams did under the Pope’s very nose with his talk of “petty gossip.” Meanwhile the BBC leads with the startling Easter news that the Pope himself has said ‘ nothing.” What a shower. It’s nearly enough to turn you into you a Presbyterian. At least we have it confirmed that Vatican attitudes lie at the heart of the problem. I turn with relief to Anne Marie Houricane’s good sense.

Traditionally, Irish Catholics have not given a damn about anything that English Protestants have had to say – unless it is about us.

  • joeCanuck

    Let’s get real here folks. Why should this extremely holy and incredibly caring god man busy himself with petty gospel? He has people to do things for him. Besides which, digging a hole can be back breaking and very time consuming.

  • joeCanuck

    “gossip” even. Help me out here Freud.

  • bollix

    what did Martin find more “shocking” – the fact that his priests were abusing kids or that another man in a hat said the church lost credibility over the fact that his priests were abusing kids.

    the church appears to be operating under some kind of delusion that IT is the victim here. It’s not the victim, it is either directly the perpetrator of these foul acts or else it facilitated and covered them up.

  • Now why would the woolly headed leader of the Anglican Communion interfere in scandals of another faith? Every Catholic Bishop in Ireland must have breathed a sigh of relief at an opportunity to turn the subject, and if possible the blame, on the English. What after all would unite Irish Catholics more than such interference. Why a conspiracy theorist might almost see conspiracy.

    Of course its a world wide scandal but surely no one is surprised at the Vaticans attempts to dismiss discussion as ‘petty gossip’. The cover ups started there, not in Dublin.

  • [quote][i]the church appears to be operating under some kind of delusion that IT is the victim here. It’s not the victim, it is either directly the perpetrator of these foul acts or else it facilitated and covered them up.[/i] …..
    Posted by bollix on Apr 05, 2010 @ 01:15 PM[/quote]

    Err, it is much more likely that they are the sick heavenly perverted stars in at least those two categories, bollix, and with information so easily shared nowadays and with everyone being educated and reading of practices which are not considered normal and decent and holy, no matter what a man in a frock says, one can surely expect much more to surface and many more faces to mysteriously disappear to country retreats for quiet reflection and to probably try and avoid criminal prosecution, public conviction and secure incarceration in the prison population, who would have their own not so mysterious ways of dealing with the situation ……. which has been most significant in its absence from the scene. Or is the Vatican its Own Open Prison?

    Now there’s a controversial thought for some deep contemplation although some may be more outraged to the point of wanting to rant and rave about it.

    It’s a funny old world, and there’s no doubt about that.

  • Alias

    There is element of a generic ‘Catholic nation’ in operation there as opposed to an Irish nation. The Catholic Church remains as a form of colonial rule with its ‘nationalism’ being comprised of Catholic nation that is formed according to its generic blueprint and that allows its affairs to be determined by the foreign state that remains unaccountable to it. These Catholic nations have in effect ‘dual citizenship’ in whichever state they reside and are essentially interchangeable with each other.

    The fact that the Catholic Church did not support Irish nationalism should have translated as it falling outside of it. And I think it does. So what you are seeing is the Catholic nation reacting to the criticism from its colonial ruler’s rival rather than the Irish nation. But then again, the Catholic nation and the Irish nation have fused in large cultural measure – with good patriots who were devout Catholics – so its complex.

    It could be bogus nationalism of the kind that seeks to reassure the non-sovereign Irish nation that it is still in control of its internal affairs since the Irish nation has granted the UK sovereignty over its internal affairs via key institutions of the Irish state as set out in the British Irish Agreement. So the bad faith that seeks to conceal this reclamation of Irish sovereignty by the British state from the Irish nation may be why certain media commentators act all anti-British at key moments, being black propaganda operations.

  • Alias

    By the way, Rowan Williams should never have apologised for speaking the truth. What kind of moral message does that send out?

  • Alias

    Its the same message he always sends out, intellectual ‘expert’ on all things and nothing. Why do you think the Anglican church is on its way out.

  • Panic, these ones like it up em.

    Posted by bollix

    ” 3.what did Martin find more “shocking” – the fact that his priests were abusing kids or that another man in a hat said the church lost credibility over the fact that his priests were abusing kids.

    the church appears to be operating under some kind of delusion that IT is the victim here. It’s not the victim, it is either directly the perpetrator of these foul acts or else it facilitated and covered them up. ”

    Well said bollix.

  • Munsterview

    I fully agree that the Irish Catholic Church has been in hock to a Foreign Government since it’s foundation…… England.

    As part of the agreement in setting up Manooth and for allowing Catholic Emancipation, the Church agreed to give political allegiance to the English Crown. Up to I think 1937 all priests for the home Catholic Dioceses had to take this Oath which some of these were still with us until the end of the eighties. Some of the the younger priests they taught are still with us…. they have not gone away you know!

    On thursday night last I was at a Cultural gathering in Munster and after the interval I was invited to say a few words for Easter Week. Most of the people in the audience had relatives in their own, their parents, their grandparents and even their great parents generation who had served in the mission fields in Africa and elsewhere.

    The vast majority of these Priests, Nuns and Brothers from their first vows until their coffins were lowered in the ground, had lived entirely blameless lives of devotion to their faith and service, especially in the educational fields to humanity. It is nothing short of the same moral cowardice that led to silence on sexual abuse issues, for the Church Establishment to now stay silent also while those with other agendas tar all religious with the same brush!

    In regard to the Christian message of Easter and Renewal I had much more to say on the above and afterwards there was a line of people, most visibly upset, up to shake my hand and thank me for what I said regarding their missionary relatives and other family religious. It was likewise when I compared to ideals of 1916 and of the sacrifices their relatives and mine made in the War Of Independence, to the recent and current Corruption of the State Establishment!

    The corruption in the Irish Press that lead to the paper’s demise and left Nationalist Ireland without an authoritative voice all during the Northern Conflict and the great silence is now matched again by a great silence in the face of rampant and evident State corruption. The poor and the defenseless are without a voice to speak for them.

    Future commentators on this period of Irish history will be very unforgiving on this.

    What would the likes of one of my early mentors Fr. Mc Dwyer of Glencolmcille have had to say on this political corruption if he was about? For two long the some of the authoritative figures in the church in Bishoprics and parishes were bullies of the first order and now like all bullies they cower when confronted while their counterparts follow their instructions ‘to be seen to be humble’ for the P.R. and optics.

    Meanwhile the weak and the innocent go undefended and without an authorative voice!

  • Coll Ciotach

    It is not petty gossip at all – it is far worse than that, it is a full scale assault on the Church by vested interests and it demands far more attention that a mere brushing of as petty.

  • “not given a damn about anything that English Protestants have had to say”

    What about Welsh Protestants?

    Rowan Douglas Williams was born in Swansea, south Wales on 14 June 1950, into a Welsh-speaking family, and was educated at Dynevor School in Swansea and Christ’s College Cambridge where he studied theology.

  • Nevin

    Its the English accent, enough to fool anyone, besides arent most Welsh Chapel? Very strict they were.

    Munsterview

    There is no doubt most of the clergy were unaware of the abuse taking place and being hidden by the Bishops and the establishment. I see no need to link it to republicanism. It clouds the issue and that is exactly what the abusers and their protectors want.

    This is about clerical abuse. In due course S/F will have, if they do not retire GA and anyone else accused, to answer questions about abuses committed in their ‘domain’.

  • bollix

    As an irish catholic i’m sure i have anti-protestant prejudices, no matter how moderate i try to be. However, in this discussion on “petty gossip” and the “malign influence” of the English, i think that my anti-paedophile prejudice is stronger. So although i may feel a knee-jerk resentment of any english / protestant criticism of “my” priests, it is quickly over-turned by my knee-jerk reaction against the actual bad guys here – the paedophile priests and those in the hierarchy who let them keep on abusing.

  • bollix

    Well said, mind you, you better look after your knees!

  • [quote][i]So although i may feel a knee-jerk resentment of any english / protestant criticism of “my” priests, it is quickly over-turned by my knee-jerk reaction against the actual bad guys here – the paedophile priests and those in the hierarchy who let them keep on abusing.[/i] …….. Posted by bollix on Apr 05, 2010 @ 05:18 PM

    Of course the question which everyone is not asking but everyone should be [b]SHOUTING[/b] is …. Are paedophiles in churches still abusing innocent children for their own and their friends’ perverse pleasures?

    And when/if they are, what does that tell everyone about the safety and sanctity of the Church and churches and that also has organised Religion and the God Business under closer scrutiny?

  • amanfrommars

    The Catholic Church insists they have stopped all paedophiles and will inform the Gardai of any future allegations.

    The Catholic Church still runs most of the schools and many homes for the disabled. In the absence of outside investigations I do not see how anyone can be sure we have heard the full history, and we definitely cannot be sure it has stopped.

  • Pippakin, I just wanted to ‘highlight’ Houricane’s knee-jerk reaction 😉

  • Nevin

    I do know. I also know (note the name) Rowan Williams has an English accent you could cut glass with. Some in Ireland are inclined to forget the antipathy between some of the branches of Protestantism. Church looked down on Chapel, and so on.

    I was in England when some of the media wondered aloud how the English would react to a Welsh Archbishop. Of course the English did not care, and a quick review of Dr Williams career as Archbishop shows English reaction was the least of his problems.

    BTW the thing about a knee jerk reaction is: its instantaneous and does not wait for the brain to ‘kick in’:)

  • My apologies, it’s Hourihane – not Houricane [note to Brian ;)]

  • Alias

    Bollix, but are they are the Vatican State’s priests, so unless you owe your allegience to a foreign state, how could they be your priests?

  • joeCanuck

    Cardinal Brady said at the weekend that there is no longer any hiding place in the Church for paedophiles. That’s great news; it must mean that all of the names of suspected offenders have now been given to the Civil Authorities. If that is not true then he is just a blethering old fart.

  • Cardinal Brady is hardly a reliable source.

  • TellMeMa

    Coll: … it is a full scale assault on the Church by vested interests and it demands far more attention that a mere brushing of as petty

    I agree with you Coll. It is not a conspiracy per se, but there are a lot of people who hate the Catholic Church and are loving this opportunity. Things are misreported, based on hearsay which is grossly amplified by the media, based without the full facts and even on untruths. And some of the comments to articles are unbelievable except as an expression of the writers’ loathing (and often ignorance and inability to read things properly).

    Many of these people aren’t really interested in paedophilia and getting rid of it – just interested in taking pot shots at the Catholic Church. For instance, here is an article I found in the Sydney Morning Herald. I could not find it anywhere in the UK media:
    http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-scouts-in-paedophilia-scandal-20100405-rlwo.html

    Not newsworthy enough for people in the northern hemisphere: it doesn’t involve the Catholic Church.

    Dominic Lawson (The Times) did note something about the new movie “The Ghost”. Some of the actors wanted to do this because a character was loosely based on Tony Blair who allegedly told lies about Iraq and they wanted to have him mocked, yet they were quite happy to work with a director (Roman Polanski) who committed at least one paedophile act.

    I doubt that many people who have been demanding Cardinal Brady’s resignation are going to avoid going to Polanski’s film because he is a paedophile.

  • Munsterview

    While this is welcome news, it is by no means the last word. The Church is no different to any-other organization out there, by law of averages it still has to have some padophiles within its ranks, just as surely as it has alcoholics! It is also only a matter of time until the next abuser is uncovered.

    It is also only then that we will see how well all the safeguards and controls put in place are working. However whether inside the religious or teaching profession etc the predators cannot be identified until after they act. Both new predators and victims will be an ongoing part of the future and anyone that claims otherwise quite simply and unfortunately do not understand the problem!

  • TellMeMa

    You may be right about some hating the Catholic Church, some, not most. Some take the allegations against Gerry Adams brother as an opportunity to have a go at GA. So what? The fact is this tragedy is of the Catholic Churches own making, you and everyone should be insisting formal rules and regulations be introduced.

    As for Roman Polanski. I have always thought they should lock him up and throw the key away. I have never watched one of his films, not even on tv.

  • joeCanuck

    TellMeMa,

    Just for the sake of accuracy, not a strong point of yours; If you go back through the Blogs on paedophilia here, you will find, no longer than a week ago, that I covered the Boy Scouts of America scandal, giving details. That Aussie article is dated today. So you are either lying or mistaken.
    I will also repeat a query to you last week which you ignored, in fact after which you absented yourself for a day or so for some reason known only to yourself. Can you please name those that you assert:
    “are unbelievable except as an expression of the writers’ loathing (and often ignorance and inability to read things properly).” and “aren’t really interested in paedophilia and getting rid of it – just interested in taking pot shots at the Catholic Church”. Are you afraid of libel? It really is ugly man/woman playing and I can’t understand why the moderators allow it.
    Finally, you are so desperate still to deflect attention that you are dragging Roman Polanski into it! Why are you trying to do that – deflect attention?

  • joe

    Well Roman Polanski did rape and bugger an underage girl. It was a long time ago, the girl has settled, and now would like the case to go away. Roman Polanski escaped from the US and spent a very happy and apparently unrepentant life in Europe. To that extent TMM is right, some actors are very selective about who is a criminal.

  • joeCanuck

    Well pippakin, much as I was disgusted by what Polanski did, I was possibly more disgusted by the “name” people who said “Aw, give the guy a break”.
    Regardless, I don’t see what it has to do with priestly abuse in Ireland, especially. TMM is and has been desperate to show that the priests aren’t so bad because others did it too.
    There, I named him/her. Why is my question repeatedly ignored? TMM may be pointing an ugly finger at you or me.

  • joe

    I completely agree with you, and so was and am I!

    TMM has two agendas and they are interconnected.

    Promote the Church

    and imply those who question the Church hate Catholicism itself not just the crimes committed within it.

    I suspect he is irreclaimable, and will continue to crop up, using one name or another and continue trying to discredit people.

    TMM owes several apologies, sad if he is not man enough to make them.

  • Alias

    The Catholic Church takes criticism better than it used to. In the old days, it would have burned you at stake or put you up on the rack. Now it just cries about it. There was a lot to be said for reigning in its powers over the centuries.

  • Alias

    Ah for the ‘burning times’. Abuse has always happened, but it seems to have got to almost a conveyor belt system. If we are seeing the end of that, then that is progress and a real reigning in of power.:)

  • joeCanuck

    Alias and Pippakin,

    Should be “reining”

    Joe the Pedant.

  • Brian Walker

    Since I started this post, I’d just like to end it (perhaps) with a word or two of respect for Abp Martin. He put his head down for a week or two but what more could he add as he waits for others? In his post-Williams interview I heard him talk of a more Gospel-based” Church. By this I take him to mean a Church based more on love than on laws. That seems right.

  • joe

    Pedantic and right! Oops

  • Brian Walker

    Yes I was a big supporter of Dr Martin, until he stopped wringing his hands long enough to take advantage of any anti English sentiment to fudge the issue.

    I actually like the pageantry of the Catholic Church. It represents continuity and is very satisfying for those who believe. The Church should not be endangered by full and proper accountability.

  • Eileen Calder

    As the Archbishop Of Canterbury has stated that he supports the further facilitation of Sharia Courts to deal with family issues for Muslim women and children in England, I have no doubt that his ill-thought statement was not based on concern for survivors of abuse – but on petty revenge for the Catholic Church poaching his flock without his permission.

    He would be well-advised to take a look a the mote in his own eye, to look at what is going on in his own country and speak out about forced marriage, honour killings and female genital mutilation. It is astonishing that he continues crawl on his knees to the Imams and then has the audacity to criticise the Catholic hierarchy in Ireland. The man is a disgrace and is the personification of the arrogant, cowardly, self-serving hypocrisy of all organised religions.

  • Alias

    I agree about Sharia Law, but I think the personal motivation that you attribute to him may have come from BBC news reporting of the story which focused on the ‘feud’ between the two Churches, particularly the ‘poaching’ and the ‘not a real religion’ remark.

    If it was calculated to offend then he is unlikely to have withdrawn his remarks so quickly or humbly. I think he was right to say what he said, but wrong to apologise for saying it.