Queen set to visit the Republic…

Interesting that the Daily Mail is reporting a possible visit by the Queen by next year. Last week in Cavan at the BIPA, there were some whispers that in fact the Irish authorities were preparing for a visit as early as this June. The logic given being the same as that quoted in Mail article: Mary McAleese is keen to have her over before she finally leaves Áras an Uachtaráin next year.

A source who accompanied Mrs McAleese on her whistlestop tour of Irish communities in London and the Olympic site this week confirmed her commitment to a royal visit by 2011.
‘Everything is in place,’ the source tells me. ‘The President wants it to happen and is very optimistic the Queen will visit during her term in office, which ends next year.’

, ,

  • Garza

    And I’m sure the Irish will welcome her with open arms. Only the Irish clinging onto past events they were not alive for will begrudge her visit.

  • Ulick

    Who’s filling in for Freddie?

  • Nordie Northsider

    Éirígí, RSF and the others will be on the streets. I can see the posters now: ‘No welcome for British monarch while part of Ireland is occupied’.
    It will interesting to see what SF do. They were out in force against Charlie some years back. Will they give dissident groups ‘the gig’ or would that be ceding too much of their vanishing revolutionary street-cred?

  • Paddy

    So the main thing is for Mary McAleese to boast that she got the plebs to accept Elizabrit. Is this a lead up to 1916 mark 2. The Famine Queen appears, culture revives and occupation troops are attacked by democrats?
    If it sweeps spongers like McAlese and her UVF loving husband out of the Vice Royal’s house, it will have to be a good thing.

  • Given that most Republicans would admit that Britain has made peace with the plain people of Ireland with the signing of the GFA, SF should at least adopt a policy of neutrality to the visit.

    Charlie’s relationship with the parachute regiment may require him to stay away for a while longer.

  • abc123

    Mrs McAleese is a constant visitor to the UK especially Northern Ireland. There has been too much talk about a visit by the Queen to the RoI. They should just get on with it. Perhaps she could come to one of the rugby international matches in Dublin in order to represent the NI part of the ‘Ireland’ team. As the Republic’s Government recognises that NI is part of the UK, it shouldn’t be an issue.

    Although I’m still waiting for them to tell the FAI to stop acting aggressively against their neighbours in the IFA in Northern Ireland. After all, we’ve been told that the constitutional issue has been settled.

  • Paddy

    When you speak of “Northern Ireland”, you are not speaking for the majority west of the Bann, in South Armagh, Newry and Mourne and most other places.
    As regards the FAI/IFA, no one gives a shit about them. In fact, there should be just a team GB, instead of Walews, Scotland and the Anyone but Neil Lennon lot having their own sub standard teams.

  • Garza

    Paddy, and when you speak of “occupation” you are speaking about a people that have access to voting, free speech, free assembly, free press, freedom of movement, fair and speedy trail. Must be horrible.

  • David Crookes

    Thanks, Paddy. You say (#7), ‘When you speak of “Northern Ireland”, you are not speaking for the majority west of the Bann, in South Armagh, Newry and Mourne and most other places.’

    I must have imagined the twin referendum that backed the GFA. Given a majority IN MOST PLACES (that is the meaning of your words), it should be easy for the majoritarians to win a referendum on the UI question. Let’s have one tomorrow.

  • Marcionite

    I know there is rule here about not playing the man but the ball but in Paddy’s case, what a throwback. Paddy, being ruled by a country that you consider different does not automatically mean you are oppressed. How are you oppressed? You’re able to post on this forum without fear of the government busting your door down and shooting. No, only republicans do that kind of thing.

    I second Garza’s posting. There is no oppression in NI. Catch a grip. If there was oppression, SF would never have been allowed to exist.

    As for Northern Ireland, that is the de facto internationally recognised name of this country , one of the 4 countries within the UK. Eire recognises it.

    So Paddy, keep drinking the Guiness and wearing easter lillies and bang on about the famine, I think people like you enjoy wallowing in self pity and holding grudges becauses its all you have to hold on to. You’re a saddo and so are people like you.

    PS Ulsterbus do a good bus service to Dublin these days, the next one leaves within the hour. There’s still time for you to make your bid for freedom. It must be hateful living in NI, being oppressed with a free health service, decent police force, free press, free assembly, freedom of speech etc. How on earth have you coped all this time.

  • Marcionite,

    fair point, the Irish are a funny lot, fancy them wanting their own country back?

    It puts one in mind of many other crazy peoples all over the world, like for example the Chinese, who insisted on having Hong Kong back in their National territory.

    I wouldnt want to sound all revolutionary but perhaps this unfortunate condition may be brought on by a prolonged bout of unwanted foreign interference?

  • joeCanuck

    I imagine she will get a good welcome apart from the usual.
    Republicans in the proper sense won’t care a whit about a visit from any monarch but everyone deserves respect as a person, until they show they are not worthy of it.

  • joeCanuck,

    you Commonwealthers are such dreadful lackeys.

  • joeCanuck

    Not me, MU; I’m a republican. I wouldn’t go out to see a monarch if she was in my backyard.

  • David Crookes

    People in Dublin are a lot more urbane than some of the baigles we have up here. I wonder will any of those baigles buy a return ticket for the bus that Marcionite is talking about on the day of the visit.

    Now let me be serious. Was the royal visit clinched once the P&J business was finally settled? Next question. WAS the P&J business finally settled?

    Maybe it was. Maybe the grown-up people know in a few days RE will do a David Ford and reveal that his antics have been harmless pantomime-dame stuff.

  • KieranJ

    Whatever you do, please do not, I repeat, do not get between Mary McAlesse and a television camera unless you wish to be run over.

  • Paddy

    I am not sure about the rules here but rest assured, I do not see any Orangies posting anti Paddy posts. Of course, I know you are all anti paddy, anti Irish: be it the Irish language or the right of the people of Ireland (Crossmaglen included) to live by majority rule. Your 6 county state is a gerrymandered stgate, as you well know, watched over for generations by armed thugs such as the PSNI. There is and was nothing democratic about it, just as there was and is nothing democratic about your brand of right wing reactionary BNP type politics.

    If the Queen does visit the Curragh or the Galway races, there will, of ocurse, be a long line of Crown Catholics lining up to kiss her arsem, and that of the Greek as well.

    But I would wager such a visit by ElizaKraut would help the RIRA types. Only a few more years to 2016.

    And Marcionite, I netiehr drink nor wear lillies. And even though I am a Catholic, I wash and shower every day. To rephrase: hold in the sectarianism you imbued, if not from your mother’s milk, from your earliest Croppy Lie Down days.

  • Brian MacAodh

    Why should the Republic accept the Queen? Until the law changes that excludes Catholics from ever becoming the monarch, she shouldn’t be welcomed by the state.

    What is she anyway, but a remnant of a “glorious” empire that, in the name of civilization and christianity, enslaved and exploited people all over the world?

  • Garza

    [quote]Of course, I know you are all anti paddy, anti Irish: be it the Irish language or the right of the people of Ireland (Crossmaglen included) to live by majority rule. Your 6 county state is a gerrymandered stgate, as you well know, watched over for generations by armed thugs such as the PSNI. There is and was nothing democratic about it, just as there was and is nothing democratic about your brand of right wing reactionary BNP type politics.[/quote]

    The more and more I post on Slugger, the more and more I realise that nationalists don’t have a clue what unionists are about.
    Hence the sweeping, generalised, paint every unionist with the same brush statements as above.

  • Brian MacAodh,

    she is the head of state of Irelands largest trading and social partner and most Republicans accept that since the GFA we have to look forward rather than back. Time to move on surely?

    JoeCanuck,

    I was just trying to set you off on one.

  • Garza

    [quote]Why should the Republic accept the Queen? Until the law changes that excludes Catholics from ever becoming the monarch, she shouldn’t be welcomed by the state.[/quote]

    “Why should the UK accept the Pope? Until the law changes that excludes Protestants from ever becoming the bishop of Rome, he shouldn’t be welcomed by the state.” Fixed.

    See what I did there. The Queen is head of a protestant church, just like the pope is head of catholic church. But for the record I couldn’t give a toss whether the monarch was proddie or cathy as I’m an atheist and its all bs to me.

    [quote]What is she anyway, but a remnant of a “glorious” empire that, in the name of civilization and christianity, enslaved and exploited people all over the world?[/quote]

    You would be hard pressed to find a country or culture that hasn’t enslaved or exploited people. The Irish have enslaved and exploited people in the past as well.

  • Brian MacAodh

    “You would be hard pressed to find a country or culture that hasn’t enslaved or exploited people. The Irish have enslaved and exploited people in the past as well.”

    Yes, but most countries don’t cherish their link to such a past and keep them around as head of state (at a cost to taxpayers, no less!!).

  • David Crookes

    Easy, boys. People are what they are. They are not relics of the past. You and I can be good friends without invoking our great-great-grandparents. A friend of a friend of mine has a great line in one of his songs: ‘Oh, how the Druids control me!’

    Why should we allow the Druids to control us? I want to live a happy life now.

  • Michael Gillespie

    Wouldn’tit be more appropriate for the Queen first of all to visit the no-go areas of the U.K. such as the Falls the Bogside and Crossmaglen?. Her visit to Dublin typfies the muddle headed thinking of partitionist Dail Eireann and p;artitionist Mary Mc Aleese.No doubt Dail Eireann and Mary hope the Queen’s visit will give the royal assent to partition

    Federal Unionist- Early Sinn Fein

  • Why on earth shouldnt the Queen visit? I wont be watching it and could care less whether she comes here or stays home.

    Some people like the monarchy. For them it represents continuity and the definite (so far) fact that they didnt get stuck with a President Thatcher, or even, yuk, a President Bliar.

    She is, I think?, in her eighties now, and if I think nothing more of her, I think she has made no mistakes, except of course her son, but then shes not the first to have embarrassing offspring.

  • Michael Gillespie

    Its easy to ask the question —Why on earth shouldn’t the Queen visit? Personally I would have no difficulty with such a visit to the districts considered but the reality is that the Queen doesn’t make visits to the Falls Bogside and Crossmaglen and if not why not? The answer is bound up with a complex history of these islands. Your defense of the monarchy is acceptable to me as I’m not a Republican but is the monarch acceptable in the districts indicated? Until the Queen is accepted the United Kingdom isn’t united.

  • Michael Gillespie

    You quoted my comment so I will answer:

    I was unaware that I defended the monarchy, I stated I didnt care if she came here or not.

    I also said some might be pleased, even thrilled to bits! that they had a monarch rather than a President Thatcher or a President Bliar. To me that makes perfect sense I wouldnt want either of them to be our head of state. In fact I might even have been one of the leaders of the revolution if they had been here instead of there.

    I get sick and tired of the north being dragged into every aspect of Ireland, there is more to us than that.

  • Greenflag

    moderate unionist ,

    ‘Charlie’s relationship with the parachute regiment may require him to stay away for a while longer.’

    He’s been to Ireland a few years back -opened something or other down at the end of Pearse St in Dublin and then went on a fishing holiday to the West /Co Galway . Got a decent reception in Dublin from some of the locals .

    As for Queenie’s visit ? I’ve no time for monarchy -any monarchy but if she comes she should be treated with the normal respect granted to any Head of State . I’ll not be protesting against her visit . The Duck himself has visited a few times as has Princess Anne and the other one 😉

  • ardmaj55

    “was the P&J business finally settled?

    Still too early to say, DC. The PMs were left with that impression in that show of amiability at Hillsboro, but they might find that Robbo is getting cold feet already. Meanwhile, in one short interview last week on talkback, Ford managed to do serious damage to his credentials as someone who is fit to take the Policing chair. He couldn’t bring himself to answer a straight question about half a dozen times. More negotiations at hillsborough soon.

  • socaire

    We could dig up the bones of that other German – what’s his name – Schickelgruber, and carry him en fete round our country. Why make fish of one Hun and flesh of another

  • David Crookes

    Thanks, ardmaj55 (page 2, #4). Yes: our politicians are all about as good as each other!

    Interesting idea, but I shouldn’t bother, socaire (page 2, #5). Dev’s visit to the German Embassy in 1945 will suffice.

    It’s impossible to say exactly how the Queen will fare in Dublin. Does anyone recall the day when some heroic character tried to murder her with a concrete block in Belfast?

  • Marcionite

    Paddy
    I invite you point out the portion of my posting which advocates hatred of people because of their religion.

    I see, you think I am sectarian because I hate Provo-ism and ‘republicanism’? Such a pathetic lack of logic.

    PSNI, armed thugs? At worst, they are keystone cops who dont know their pens from their truncheons but they’re an amiable decent fair minded lot. Are you just reaching into your goody bag of Provo cliches and just slavishly and lazily label any police force as thuggish?

    As for my ‘BNP politics’. Again, I invite you to quote any of my postings which advocate the forced repatriation of ethnic minorities. I get it now, my hatred of the IRA means I am a fascist. But of course..

    You make assumptions that I’m a Protestant too. Well, I suppose there’s no proof I can offer here but I was born an RC and went to RC schools in Dungannon and Omagh

    There, I had teachers who make jokes about the murder of RUC men in Ballygawley, jokes about Protestant workmen being killed in Teebane. Teacher who got picked up by the RUC for suspected IRA membership but kept being released only to find when such ‘teachers’ died, they were given IRA funerals.

    My mothers milk was very green indeed but I intrinsically knew from an early age that despite the rhetoric and propaganda and sloganeering of my nationalist upbringing that I did not live in an oppressed society. All the inconveniences caused, any indiscretions borne of frustration from the small minority of RUC men were caused by IRA brutality, murder and destruction.

    I also learned that the priest who married my parents, so called ‘Father’ McCloskey in Omagh, harboured at least one IRA murderer, namely Sean O’Callaghan who murdered Inspector Flannigan in a Broderick’s pub in Omagh in the early 70’s.

    I knew instinctively these were the attitudes and opinions of charlatans and men of evil nastly narrow minds who wanted a monocultural, mono ethnic, mono religious gaelic Ireland where Protestants didn’t exist. I knew boys who joined the IRA who told me they just wanted prods dead. No great orations of James Connolly from them, no memorisations of the Declaration of the Republic.

    No, their agenda was ‘Dead Prods’.

    In England, I witnessed a tolerant, open, pluralistic society where individuality was cherished and espoused. A society where people could hold diametrically opposed opinions withour resorting to shooting each other.

    If anyone was oppressed there, it probably was the miners and their families, losing their livlihoods and way of life irrevocably. The police did behave dispicably in part towards the miners but the majority of police behaved impeccably.

    Did the miners advocate the forming of paramilitary groups to shoot Tories because they couldn’t get a Labour party elected?

    No, they didn’t. They valued democracy and democratic principles and fought their battles via the ballot box and the ballot box alone. The idea of shooting someone was utterly alien and sickening to them.

    Republican Ireland has a bloodlust, an utter lack of democratic principle or advocacy or appreciate because its not in the DNA of illegal militaristic traditions to encourage dissenting points of view.

    As we all know, dissenting points of view within republicans does not lead to hiving debating societies but funerals.

    The multi ethnic, multi cultural, secular, democratic principles of England, Britain and the UK are things I cherish and hold dear.

    And just because I don’t want to be ruled by Eire does not mean I hate Eire. I neither wish to be ruled by Spain but I dont hate them but I would take severe umbrage with anyone or any force that acts with physical violence to force my country into such a jurisdiction

    As for the accusation of NI being an artificial state. Well, perhaps the border did not exist officially before 1921 but the border was there in the heart and soul of the island for decades if not centuries before it was drawn on the map.

    The British minority were not and are not and never will be Irish in the modus vivendi. Ireland, the island, is not and never will be a nation state for there are two nations on it. An Irish one and a British one.

    I understand the Irish minority who found themselves within NI may have resented that and that’s unfortunate but welcome to the world of border drawing European and African style of the 20 century. Do you think when you cross the French border from Germany that all of a sudden, every one speaks French? Every nation under the sun has some of its neighbours ethnic groupings within its borders but that in itself does not mean they are oppressed.

    Where there is a ballot box and freedom to form polical parties without fear of the gas chamber, there is no oppression.

    Paddy, call me what you will but don’t call me racist, sectarian or a BNP supporter. Get your insults right, don’t just reach into your cliche bag and throw the first words you find, which are typical provo-speak usually.

  • Gréagoir O Frainclín

    Rediculous bringing the Queen Liz to Ireland now especially when the ‘dissadent’ halfwits are trying to murder people and considering there’s no petty cash in the kitty to pay for her state visit. Should have brought her here during the Celtic Tiger years when the place was thriving and everyone was optimistic, wealthy, carefree and happy.

    BTW, haven’t been on Slugger in a while but reading the comments I’ve been reminded of how folk are so parochial and narrow minded in Ireland ….. NI being the prime haven or indeed heaven for such ignorant beligerant backward types.

    greagoir o frainclin

  • David Crookes

    Marcionite (page 2, #7), many thanks for your post. You often record the sort of authentic details that never make it into the ‘study of conflict’ academic bogosphere.

  • Marcionite

    thanks David. I am sure I’m not the only one though who saw through the tribal doctrinaires of the formative years.

    Scotland had it’s highland clearances, an act of barbarism on a par with the famine but I’ve never heard any Scottish nationalist advocate violence or dwell on that aspect of history. Irish republicanism has a cult of martyrdom and self pity which is markably absent from Wales and Scotland even though those countries have ample historical reasons of their own to point to. But they don’t.

    Today is the 37th anniversary of the Abercorn bombing where 2 lives were lost and many horribly maimed for life. No Savile inquiry for them, no Civil Rights marches for them , just the quiet dignity of innocent bereaved families and friends that slips into history, largely unnoticed and forgotten

    lest us forget

  • Greenflag

    marcionite ,

    I would’nt waste a long post on yon paddy . I doubt if the chap is authentic or even a republican. He comes across more as a prop or troll .

    As for Republican Ireland having a bloodlust ?

    Well the State i.e an independent Ireland (Free State & Republic) has been in existence for almost 90 years and so far we have managed to avoid declaring war on anybody .

    Now if only the same could be said of Britain? WW2 , Korea, Palestine , Cyprus, Kenya , Suez Canal , Falklands , Iraq , Afghanistan etc.
    Of course those wars were/are different eh ? Nobody was killed , no blood was spilt and no innocent civilians were killed .

    Once upon a time there was a Prince who became a frog or was it the other way around .

  • Marcionite

    I think it is to do with trying to best such a mighty foe. You have got to admit we are indomitable! In addition the water barrier has meant that whilst some have seen the worst, many have never seen the best of England, or possibly even wondered why so many Irish, Scots and Welsh have settled permanently there.

    I had a ‘debate?’ with someone who said he had spent eleven happy years in England, baffling then why he was droning on about Cromwell!

  • Marcionite

    Sorry, dont want to bore you but I must add:

    I think too there may be, at the back of our minds, a sense of betrayal. There is no doubt the English let the famine happen. No excuses, they let many, many people die. It was not a man made atrocity, but the English quite deliberately did nothing, or nothing like enough, to deal with it. It was a shameful stain on England. I know it was different times and there is no way if such a disaster happened today, the English would not be in the front of the queue to help out.

  • Greenflag

    You are being deliberately provocative!.

    Admit it, in every one of those wars Irish people were in church praying for the Brits to lose! Too bad they did not get off their knees long enough to see the children being abused.

    In many of those wars, the Irish fought alongside the Brits. Not to acknowledge that denies our history. A shameful part of our history is the overt support given by the De Valera govt to the Nazis. Fortunately we are saved from absolute ignominy by the brave men who also fought alongside the Brits in the second world war.

    We are, regretfully or not, warrior races. To deny that is to deny ourselves.

  • Marcionite

    My experience of republicanism is not that of Fine Gael or erstwhile PD’s or Fianna Fail but of SF/IRA.

    I never heard anyone who believed in peace describe themselves as a republican in NI, perhaps with the exception of Gerry Fitt during his Republican Labour days.

    But Pippakins postings #12 makes a very good point. Apparently RSF have a branch in London !

    How on earth can they hate England so much and yet live in it. I am not being facetious, does it not strike anyone else here as being bizarre? Do they go around their daily business wishing every English person they meet, dead ?

    What’s so great about being independant anyway? How does electing ones MP’s to a more local Parliament make one more free?

    How many of us actually do get on our hindlegs on the street and tell the world our beliefs?

    Lets take this to the micro level i.e a workplace in Cork. Let’s take a call centre worker in Cork. He/she it can be argued by republicans, is a free citizen because she/he is not subject to a Queen and is able to elect a TD to Dublin therefore he/she is free.

    Yet same person may not be given permission to go to the toilet for more than 5 minutes in successive hours by their line manager otherwise their job could be on the line.

    So tell me, how really free is that person?

    Politicians live in their own little world where being free means the very same politicians being free to attend their Parliament of choice but they always forget or overlook the fact that the meaning of freedom is very very different for the ordinary man and woman in the street.

    I work for a firm whose management threatens and intimidates psychologically anyone who tries to invite the trade union, Unite in to organise. I believe this happens all over the UK and Ireland in firms owned by the US.

    How free are we really? You can build a Parliament in every town and village if you like but when the dignity of workers is curtailed and threatened, there is little freedom.

  • Brian MacAodh

    “overt support given by the De Valera govt to the Nazis”

    What overt support was that? Just because we didn’t let British troops reoccupy our land and ports means we were giving the Nazi’s over support?

    Give me a fuckin break

  • Brian MacAodh

    No! It is true and you know it. De Valera even went to the German Embassy to commiserate with the German people on the death of Adolph Hitler. He went on the radio after the war to talk about a poor little country. He should have had his violin the better to pull the old heart strings.

    It was not good enough. If it had not been for the brave men who served with the allies Ireland would have been shamed.

    To be neutral you have to be as Switzerland, truly independent of both in word and deed, we were not. I am sick and tired of the secret smirks. It is long past time we faced that part of our history.
    Dont swear at me because you dont like the truth.

  • Marcionite

    Eires rulers had a shameful history in WW2 but this was at odds with it’s people who joined UK forces in their droves voluntarily.

    I wonder if Eire ever really wanted independance or was it’s people whipped into a propaganda-led berserker-like frenzy by SF when deep down all the Irish wanted was Englandto be nicer to it within the UK

    There should be a referendum in Eire to see if it wants to rejoin the UK. one may be surprised at the result.

    As for the Bean Rhianna Eleish a Dó na-hEireann, she is more than welcome to visit Eire, her other Celtic footstool

  • Marcionite

    I never meant to imply that all of us were either neutral or against the allies in the 2nd world war. Thousands of Irish men went to fight for the allies, most for the Brits but some for the US. On their return the soldiers who fought in Brit uniforms were treated worse than those who fought in US uniforms. It was not until the sixties that Ireland recognised the heroism of all of the soldiers who fought with the allies. We owe them much they saved Ireland.

  • Alias

    “In England, I witnessed a tolerant, open, pluralistic society where individuality was cherished and espoused. A society where people could hold diametrically opposed opinions withour resorting to shooting each other.” – Marcionite

    That is consistent with my own experience of the English. So we can both agree that England is a fine society, but what about the United Kingdom? In the UK, as you contrast it with England, people who “hold diametrically opposed opinions” do resort “to shooting each other.” Or have you forgotten that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom?

    It sounds like the UK would be almost as fine a society as England if Northern Ireland left the union – and many of the catholic tribe in the UK would agree with you.

    By the way, there are circa 7,000 nations in the world. Its pushing it just a tad to claim that the UK is some great contrast to a nation-state because it grants parity of esteem to 4 non-sovereign nations that share the common nationalism of British but gives a two-finger exclusionist salute to the other 7,000 nations.

  • Marcionite

    Alias Your logic is good. My ultimate point is if the union is copperfastened, the best qualities of the mother ship England would seep into NI. As it stands now, our semi-detached relationship prevents such a trickle down of qualities

  • Marcionite

    Alias I am agreeing with your first and second paragraph of posting #20. Your final paragraph can be summed up by saying its just a tough old world out there and commisserations to all those ‘nations’ who are not sovereign but on what stone is it written that a ‘nation’ should be sovereign necessarily?

    Anyone with Thread-Creation capability I wouldnt mind a thread being opened about the concept of freedom as per my last posting but one. thank you

  • David Crookes

    And now people from the RoI are joining the British Army in significant numbers. In so doing they aren’t ‘betraying’ any other people. They are asserting their right to live their own lives, and refusing to bury their heads in the graveyard of sanctified hatred. Some things about the past were very bad, but none of those things should cause us to desire a present which is anything but very good for everyone.

    The so-called ‘dissidents’ are like bleary-eyed fantasts who want to be married to Cleopatra. They know they can’t be, so they are driven to reveal their manhood every so often by letting off little bombs. Of course not one of these heroes would ever join a proper army and fight in a proper war.

    No one who welcomes the friendship which is growing up between our different island peoples can be called a traitor. The real traitor is the hate-filled loser who keeps returning, like the Biblical dog, to the vomit of a largely imaginary past.

  • RepublicanStones

    I suppose there’s no proof I can offer here but I was born an RC and went to RC schools in Dungannon and Omagh,/i>

    What schools were they?

    any indiscretions borne of frustration from the small minority of RUC men were caused by IRA brutality, murder and destruction.

    Ahh the old fruit analogy. I think given the chronology of events which encompass the most recent round of the Anglo-Irish conflict commonlly referred to as ‘the Troubles’, you’ll find the it was actually the reverse. Oh and this is really interesting reading.

    http://www.seeingred.com/Copy/2.1_CODE_weiraff.html

    Of course, the man in question must be lying 😉

    Well, perhaps the border did not exist officially before 1921 but the border was there in the heart and soul of the island for decades if not centuries before it was drawn on the map.

    And that would obviously have nothing to do with a certain British policy of mass importation of loyal subjects, would it?

    All in all…………. a fair dose of the Stockholm, it has to be said.

  • RepublicanStones

    And now people from the RoI are joining the British Army in significant numbers.

    Wouldn’t have anything to do with the recent moratorium on recrutiment in the Defence Forces?

    An interesting article from David Morrisey as well..

    http://www.david-morrison.org.uk/ireland/irish-in-british-military.htm

  • RepublicanStones

    “overt support given by the De Valera govt to the Nazis”

    Could you list this overt support please?

  • Marcionite

    Here here to David Crooke’s posting. I agree wholeheartedly.

    However, I do confess to being hatefilled towards SF. When I think of all what they did (I am not exonorating the loyalists by any means, but they dont get 50% of the unionist vote) and how they lionise their dead gunmen and bombers for committing atrocities, I cannot help but wish how this country’s people could have a universal revulsion of murder, like some decent nation like Denmark.

    As it stands, over half of northern nationists support a party who thinks it is a good idea for widow and orphan making and killing innocent shoppers and proto-ethnic cleansing of Protestant farmers along border areas.

    I keep banging on about this but my God, its the lowest benchmark of any democracy for evrey politician to condemn past acts of evil. Alas, not here.

    It does deeply sadden me and I am not being dramatic or prone to hyperbole, it does sadden me to see a large proportion of my country in a glassy eyed grip to an evil party, a situation non unlike what prewar Germany must have been like when it was in the hypnosis of the Nazis.

    Does any other non TUV unionist not think the same? I know you may say its time to move on but like postwar Germany, we were able to move on once Nazism was expunged. Even there was de-Baathisation in Iraq. But here, there cannot really be moving on when the party that committed the most bloodshed and terror, does not atone and holds power.

    To me, SF being in government is as much an act of desecration to the memories of its thousands of victims as it would be urinating on each of their graves. Excuse the perhaps undignified analogy but I stand by it for it is how I feel

  • David Crookes

    Every counrty has its fair share of ‘dirty laundry’ we are no different. It is a sign of the maturity of our youth and how, in spite of everything, there are many young people joining the British forces. I believe we should be very proud of the ten thousand or so Irish men who went off to fight for the allies.

    Republican Stones

    I cant speak for Marcionite but I was christened Catholic. Some of us, the ones with more than one grey cell, do outgrow it. As for the British mass importation of loyal subjects, when did that happen, not to the day of course, the year will do.

  • RepublicanStones

    When I think of all what they did (I am not exonorating the loyalists by any means, but they dont get 50% of the unionist vote)

    You see unionism had its own ‘legitmate army’, in uniform and in reciept of pay, ditto for its own police force. Loyalists were playthings of unionism, to be discarded on a whim. But as admittted plenty of wallpaper was seen.

  • RepublicanStones

    I cant speak for Marcionite but I was christened Catholic. Some of us, the ones with more than one grey cell, do outgrow it.

    As Im not a ‘bead rattler’ myself, I still think it is a bit condescending to insinuate that Catholics, or at least practicisng ones, need to grow up !

  • Marcionite

    Republicanstones – yes, the plantation. If I had a timemachine and had magical powers, I would have stood at the shores of Larne and told them all to go back and go to Nova Scotia instead but here we are.

    In the absence of timemachines and tardis, let’s deal with the here and now?

    You cannot equate the British army and RUC with IRA terrorists. So some cop beat someone up. So someone was beaten in custody. I’ll let you into a wee secret, come closer, comfortable? Ok, there isnt a police force in the world, even the Gardai, where such things do not happen but you dont see those societies espousingthe murder of every policeman, do you?

  • Marcionite

    Catholic babies need to grow up.

  • Brian MacAodh

    “De Valera even went to the German Embassy to commiserate with the German people on the death of Adolph Hitler. He went on the radio after the war to talk about a poor little country. He should have had his violin the better to pull the old heart strings.”

    Is that the best you can come up with? You claimed the Free State gave overt support to the Nazi’s during WW II. Please give me one example of this. (Signing a condolences book at an embassy at the end of the war hardly qualifies as overt support)

    -Nazi spies were arrested, as were the IRA men who tried to meet them.
    -Those IRA men who took part in the S-campaign against Britain were arrested and some executed.
    -The crew of Nazi planes that crashed were imprisoned til the wars end, while the crew of Allied planes were freed in NI within days.
    -Ireland accepted refugees from London during the blitz.
    -Ireland passed over captured German plans of invasion to Britain
    -In contravention of Irish nuetrality, Ireland allowed British planes to land at the Donegal Corridor as well as fly over Irish airpace.
    -Ireland allowed British rescue boats/planes to stay on their coasts in order to rescure downed pilots or boats in the ocean
    -etc etc etc

    The Free State, if not honorable, certainly has nothing to be ashamed about. They were a poor country with no military to speak of. They helped the Allies to the point were they could have been seen as violating their neutrality and the Axis would have been within their right to treat them as belligerents. No effort was made to stop the 100s of thousands of Irish free staters (including my Grandfather who was wounded in Belgium, Jan 1945) who joined up with the Commonwealth or American military, at least 10,000 of whom died.

    Ireland, for their benefit easily could have joined the allies from 43 on, when there was no real threat to them and it was popular to do so (Brazil, Mexico, etc). But they did not, as De Valera was committed to nuetrality that was enshrined in the Constitution.

    He also could have taken up Britain’s offer for re-unification through opening up Ireland’s ports and land. But again, he did not. He was too committed to neutrality to entertain such an offer.

    Certainly, De Valera never should have signed the book at the embassy even if (as a technically neutral country) it was protocol to sign. I hardly think that one act shames the whole of (26 county) Ireland for those 6 years. His speech, you mentioned, was in response to Churchhill’s typical blustering and insulting of Ireland. I’m not a big fan of Dev, but his speech was great. Here is an excerpt

    “Allowances can be made for Mr. Churchill’s statement, however unworthy, in the first flush of victory. No such excuse could be found for me in this quieter atmosphere. There are, however, some things it is essential to say. I shall try to say them as dispassionately as I can. Mr. Churchill makes it clear that, in certain circumstances, he would have violated our neutrality and that he would justify his actions by Britain’s necessity. It seems strange to me that Mr. Churchill does not see that this, if accepted, would become a moral code and that when this necessity became sufficiently great, other people’s rights were not to count… that is precisely why we had this disastrous succession of wars — World War No.1 and World War No.2 — and shall it be World War No.3? ”

    I do apologize for swearing.

  • RepublicanStones

    So some cop beat someone up. So someone was beaten in custody. I’ll let you into a wee secret, come closer, comfortable?

    Ach Marcionite, why didn’t you tell us thats all went on. Christ, all those families have been getting pent up over nothing. Sure the RUC were just like the Garda, or the Cops over in Britain. Lets have that fruit analogy again…

    http://www.seeingred.com/Copy/2.1_CODE_weiraff.html

  • RepublicanStones

    Brian they’ve obviously never even heard of the Cranborne Report nevermind read it !

  • David Crookes

    Brian (page 3, #8), unless they’ve been mentioned already you can add the fire engines which were sent up from Dublin to Belfast during the Blitz. Hitler responded to this friendly act by bombing the RoI.

  • Everyone!

    I happen to be someone who thinks no policeman, gard or soldier has the right to ‘beat anyone up’.

    De Valeras support for the Nazis (I will not call them Germans because they were but the scum rising to the surface) was overt. I direct you to Wikipedia and the BBC (actually there is an interesting article claiming he was a British spy, but I doubt that, he was fanatical), to his denial of Nuremburg, to his allowing Nazis to shelter here after the war. To the treatment given to returning allied soldiers. It is a long list.

    I dont blame Ireland, I blame De Valera. One day we will face the truth about him. It is enough to know there were so many Irish people prepared to fight for the freedom of the world.

  • Gréagoir O Frainclín

    “Irish republicanism has a cult of martyrdom and self pity which is markably absent from Wales and Scotland”….

    Yep very true … blame the Catholic Church for this and the Christ death cult! And indeed most of the woes that befell this country and her broken people …. Ironic isn’t it, but if only we had Republican Cromwell today to sort out these dirty old pious priest bastards.

    “A shameful part of our history is the overt support given by the De Valera govt to the Nazis.”

    What an idiotic and ill informed statement!

  • David Crookes

    I doubt the destruction of the north was part of De Valeras hatred of the UK.

    Hitler also (or his minions) also apologised for the bombing of the ROI.

    The facts really do speak for themselves.

  • Gréagoir O Frainclín

    Na Pipakins your take on Dev and his role in WWII is a bit fucked up. I know he was a bit of an auld consevative bastard too but Ireland which was supposedly ‘neutral’ actively assisted the allies during the Second World War …. not as much as the allies and Churchill wanted, and not as much as it might: but ours was a vastly more pro-allied policy than that followed by Sweden or Switzerland who were also ‘neutral.’
    The latter shot down allied bombers which entered its airspace, but Ireland allowed British aircraft access to the Atlantic’s vital north-western approaches through the Donegal corridor. Ireland allowed thousands of its citizens to join the British armed forces, and which they did. Ireland gave vital weather reports to the British and our Defence Forces handed over U-boat parts and German mines washed ashore on our coasts to the British.

  • Graigoir O Fraincin

    Getting all hot under the collar will not stop it being true. It may have been De Valeras hatred of the Brits, or his dislike of Judaism or even his Catholicism but it is still true.

    As for the deference, some might say obsequent attitude toward the Catholic church, I would not recommend Cromwell by any means, but we do need to get over it. Too many children have suffered for this church already.

  • Gréagoir O Frainclín

    Anyways, what has all this got to do with England’s Queen Liz visiting the Republic of éire!

    Another case of tit for tat meanderings in the inane blame game!

  • Gréagoir O Frainclín

    BTW Pipakins, Are U a ‘Brit’?

  • Gragoir O Francin

    Allowed the Brits access? Would this be the little island with no defence force to speak of, and who once the Yanks got involved and old Joe Kennedy was back in his lair, knew which side their bread was buttered on? As much as what happened during the war you need to look at what happened after to be sure.

    No I sincerely wish you were right, but I cannot see it.

  • Gragoir O Francin

    Allowed the Brits access? Would this be the little island with no defence force to speak of, and who once the Yanks got involved and old Joe Kennedy was back in his lair, knew which side their bread was buttered on? As much as what happened during the war you need to look at what happened after to be sure.

    No, I sincerely wish you were right, but I cannot see it.

  • Gragoir O Francin

    No I am not! But I have lived a life time of De Valeras vision of Ireland. It was not until he kicked the bucket that we finally started to get over his ‘barefoot and pregnant’ vision of Ireland.

    Some would say it was the Brits holding us back, others would point to the EU as our saviours, but none of it could have happened while Dev lived. He was a mountain too far for all opposition.

  • Gragoir O Francin

    As for the Queens visit. I could care less. It wont make a difference to my life.

  • Alias

    “It may have been De Valeras hatred of the Brits, or his dislike of Judaism or even his Catholicism but it is still true.”

    You’ve lost the run of yourself. Dev had no dislike of Judaism whatsoever, granting it the status of an official state religion (at a time when anti-Semitism was rife in Europe). He was also a great friend of Isaac Herzog, then Chief Rabbi of Ireland, who hid Dev him in his house when Dev was on the run from the Black and Tans. Dev was profoundly against the creation of the state of Israel, however, and implemented a policy of hostility towards it which remains the default Irish policy today. The Irish state itself, mainly at its civil service level (which was the old colonial civil service retained), was undoubtedly anti-Semitic, often frustrating Dev’s attempts to help Jews during the war (e.g. blocking the issue of visas that might allow them safe passage). Dev had a political objection to Israel which was fair enough, but it’s an unsupported leap of logic to claim that he had a “dislike of Judaism” or acted maliciously toward Jewish people.

  • Alias

    One other point: President Douglas Hyde (Protestant from a British background) also expressed his condolence on the death of the German head of state since both of them followed state protocol on the issue (rather foolishly).

    That said, Dev showed no such slavish devotion when it came to expressing condolences to Israel’s heads of state – he abandoned protocol and never sent any.

  • Marcionite

    DeValera was a Gaelic Franco. A arch conservative backwoodsman who turned Eire into a Celtic version of Albania because prosperity was very unIrish

  • Gréagoir O Frainclín

    “DeValera was a Gaelic Franco. A arch conservative backwoodsman who turned Eire into a Celtic version of Albania because prosperity was very unIrish”

    True!

    Meant to add that during WWII fire brigades from the south crossed the border to assist in putting out the fires from the Nazi air raids.

    greagoir o frainclin

  • Alias

    I hope you are right but I cannot see any other reason for condemning the Nuremburg trials or for allowing Nazis to remain in Ireland.

    De Valera is still almost untouchable here and I think it will be some time yet before we begin to really unravel the facts.

    I remember when the film Angelas Ashes came out there were huge arguments over how accurate it was. A member of my family who lived there then said it was absolutely accurate. On one tv program a historian said in answer to questioning on why things were so bad that: “they had other priorities” If the people were not the priority what was.

    I believe Dev leaned toward the Nazis, not because he agreed, but because of that sad old saying ‘my enemys enemy is my friend’.

  • Alias

    “DeValera was a Gaelic Franco. A arch conservative backwoodsman who turned Eire into a Celtic version of Albania because prosperity was very unIrish”

    Do you mean that he squandered all of that considerable wealth and prosperity that British rule brought to the country? He did his best with what was left to him by the UK – which was a backward, non-industrialised country after colonialism had duly extracted the resources and wealth from the country and failed to develop it as anything other than an agricultural country for a protestant landowning class. After he kicked the parasitic British out, Ireland advanced its own economic interests and duly surpassed its old occupier in per capita wealth despite said occupier having the considerable advantage of having plundered the world’s loot. 😉

    Now I hate to quote Noam Chomsky, but his analysis of the parasitic history of British imperialism is spot-on: “…in the 18th century, India was one of the commercial and industrial centers of the world. England was a kind of a backwater – it had much greater force, but not commercial or industrial advantages. It was able to forcefully impose on India what was now called the neo-liberal program of free-market, tariffs, etc. etc. Meanwhile England itself, which was a powerful state, raised high protectionist barriers to protect itself from superior Indian goods…textiles, ships, and others. There was massive state intervention in the economy, the United States later did the same thing – stole Indian technology. Over the next 200 years, that tyranny led to an impoverished, agricultural country, while England became a rich, industrial society. The mortality rate in India after 200 years of British rule was about the same as when they took over. There were railroads, but they were run from the outside – they were there for extraction of resources. Meanwhile, tens, if not hundreds of millions of people died in famines – the famines were horrendous. So that’s the history of the British in India. After India won its independence, it began a path of development, picked up again where it was two centuries ago. It’s true that while under the imperial system, some of the better features of Western society leaked through, but India had a rich literature and culture long before England came in. Basically it was a murderous, destructive, several centuries of history, which India then got out of. Then it began to develop where there were no more famines, and the infant mortality rate began to improve enormously. There are still a lot of problems, many traceable back to the English days. That’s the history of English imperialism.”

    Pip, you’re spouting complete rubbish. Where are you getting that garbage from? The Ulster Bogtrotters’ Guide to Irish History? If you are trying to nudge unionists into a united Ireland by having them move shyly away from your attempt to gives their arses, then I suggest you get yourself a move dignified strategy. 😉

  • Brian MacAodh

    Pip

    You still have yet to point to one evidence of giving “overt support” of Nazi Germany. Signing a condolences book or anything that happened after the war doesn’t count as giving overt support.

  • Alias

    You sound as though you hate the Brits and that has been the problem all along. I believe they started the industrial revolution and of course they were protectionist, every major economy should be. The reason we are in this mess is the West has gone for cheap, which means foreign. I never hesitate to blame the Brits where it is due, read my earlier comments to Marcionite on this thread.

    Brian MacAodh

    I did! I mentioned various sources for you to check, look back through this thread. I also mentioned an article, on the BBC search, that claimed he was a British spy.

    Get over yourselves lads. Is it my fault I would have been a Collins supporter back in the day?

    Sorry this has taken so long. I went to bed!

  • RepublicanStones

    So Dev gave ‘overt support’ to the Nazis by being a spy for the Brits ??!!!

    Can I have a puff off that?

  • RepublicanStones

    Talking of puff, I have just run out of cigarettes and have to go to town (two miles) to get some so will be, temporarily, switching off soon.

    I did not say that! I said it was an interesting article, among hundreds? of others. I also said in an earlier comment (not going to check, Ive stirred up such a hornets nest there are too many!) that I did not believe Dev was a Brit spy because he was too fanatical.

    Back to cigs, I may well buy some wine and start early, so much wind and gas!

  • Brian MacAodh

    Didn’t notice the sources you said you mentioned (other than wikipedia, which doesn’t support your assertion), but no matter.

    I enjoy your reading your posts usually, but what you said was not true here. I think people are tired of Ireland getting beaten up over the legacy of the “Emergency” when, in reality, there is not too much to be ashamed about. It’s often Unionists who don’t know or could care less what the truth is who like to bring it into a discussion just to rile people up or score some imaginary points.

    On a differnt topic…if only the Big Fella had lived…methinks Dev wouldn’t have dominated the stage for so long and Ireland would have been better off. But who knows

  • Brian Mac Aodh

    You can find some on google. I know Wiki didnt entirely support it, but it did enlarge on after the war, which I thought was interesting in this context. RTE also did their ‘Hidden History’ series which whilst, as far as I remember did not implicate Dev it certainly highlighted the ‘flirtation’ some of us had with Nazism.

    Im not interested in Unionist opinion of Dev or anyone else, their opinions are, like ours way too biased!

    My views stem in part from the poverty, to the treatment meted out to returning Irish allied soldiers and to the general atmosphere of the times, which is not to suggest that what Ive said is not documented.

    I understand there are some files ‘buried’ for one hundred years. It would be interesting to know why would it not, considering any aid given to the allies would be something to boast of today.

    I am not good at giving web addresses as sources. My B/B is not that reliable and I cant switch from one to another without switching one off and going back and so on.

  • Paddy

    Dev’s cabinet included at least one Jew but hey, bang away.

    Bottom line: the Queen is not welcome. I am saure she does not want to come. She did get to the Kentucky derby,one of her life’s ambitions. I was trying to check up Paddy Power to see what odds he was giving on her attending the Curragh but can’t find it anymore.

  • Paddy

    http://bnp.org.uk/2010/03/dagenham-welcomes-home-a-hero/

    On a related note, her is a guy who fell for Queen and BNP/TUV.

  • Paddy

    Why do you care so much. The head of state of our main trading partner may or may not come here. So what?

    If your faith in this country is so fragile the fault is yours.