Policing and Justice talks entering shaky ground…

Inter party talks are on shaky ground tonight. Deputy First Minister Martin Mc Guinness will address Sinn Fein’s board of officers tomorrow. There is no ‘product.’ In a sentence then Mr. Mc Guinness is going to talk with party officers with one hand as long as the other. This is ominous.

, , , ,

  • Marcionite

    What are the sticking points Eamonn?

  • FitzjamesHorse

    How can it be ominous?
    Personally I dont see how devolving policing makes any kinda difference where it matters on the ground.
    I dont need it so much that I want Davey Forde with a portfolio and Naomi Long becoming Alliance leader. (Poor Seanie).

    The great and the good journos who we are told in another thread are not restrained by the need to be balanced have demonised our local politicians. They are VERY bad people…..especially the members of the two biggest parties who are VERY VERY bad people.
    Now all of a sudden this is……..OMINOUS.

    Is this actually a talking point anywhere except on message boards?

  • crazy fenian 32

    The D U P is the sticking point.I hope martin has a good reason why sinn fein should not pull out of this farce from here there dosn,t seem to be one.

  • Marcionite

    I am sure the people of Haiti love our definition of ominous. Christ, we’re like fleas fighting in a matchbox in the pocket of a disinterested giant.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Is this actually a talking point anywhere except on message boards?

    Or SDLP circles ?

  • danielmoran

    Eamon. I’m not clear how this DUP/UUP alliance is going to prevent SF being the biggest party at stormont post election unless they formally join up under a new group/party. Won’t they go into election in their own party names? it doesn’t look like they’re planning a prmanent change in unionist distinct party entities. so their mla’s will be counted seperate from each other. This is weird.

  • FitzjamesHorse

    Marcionite,
    I agree totally.
    When I saw the word “ominous” I felt sure a giant meteorite was about to hit us.
    I do appreciate the fact that it is “ominous” within a certain limited context. But I still think it is hyperbole.

  • aquifer

    When we vote for political zombie parties from the ‘war’ years expect bits dropping off, empty stares, and a gathering stench of putrescence. They may stagger on for a bit, trying to scare us mortals one more time, but this ‘B’ movie must be on the last reel.

    Popcorn, chocolate, Coke anyone?

  • hairlacker

    God help the peacefull protesters on the Garvaghy Road!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Scaramoosh

    “Policing and Justice talks entering shaky ground…”

    Is that akin to saying that the hawks in S.Armagh are getting itchy fingers…?

    To crash the talks, and free themselves from the mantle of being the Shoneen Clan, is Sinn Fein’s best-strategic move; but not one that I think that they will necessairly embrace. Rather, on esuspects that with the talks in crisis, Uncle Gerry is going to ride in on his white charger to save them; thus turning from villain to hero in a flash (wishful thinking?)…

    Gerry would then be able to leave the stage quietly before the next round of questions that are likely to come out from the Dark’s Revelations From Beyond the Grave……

  • hairlacker

    Will the Shinners get Batons , pepper spray AS WELL AS Plastic Bullets banned from use in time for the marching season? I honestly hope not because those Hecklear & Koch make some mess!!!

  • someone

    Danielmoran msg 6 – the answer is simply that Mr Mallie’s story was bollocks. Confusion over.

  • wje

    What are the sticking points Eamonn?

    Posted by Marcionite

    At a quick guess, when one considers how often senior DUP figures have quoted the ‘parading issue’ and ‘community confidence’ I think it would be safe to say that the DUP wanted SF to ensure, even guarantee, that there would be full-blown Orange parades again taking place along the Ormeau and Garvaghy roads and probably quite a few other areas in order to bolster confidence in the unionist community.
    That scenario would leave confidence within the national community at rock bottom.
    SF know that to concede on parades would leave them totally exposed.

  • FitzjamesHorse

    It IS the Parades issue.
    SF have to some extent used it cynically and heightened local sensibilities that Parades wont happen again. With Brendan MaCionnaigh (sp) lined up against SF there would certainly be divisions in Portadown about the issue.
    Likewise the noisier Republican types who were SFs front line in parades disputes are still noisey.
    Probably DUP need a kinda fig leaf that SF could guarantee SOMe if not all of the Parades and this simply is no longer in SFs gift as it might have been ten years ago.

    Therefore some “independent” body will rule on parades this summer, postponing the issue again.

  • Marcionite

    If parade body is negociated away, SF better pray hard that nothing sinister happens duringvthe marching season. Remember the graffiti I Ran Away?

  • FitzjamesHorse

    Which of course begs the question if there are people in the wings HOPING and/or working to ensure that something sinister does happen.

    Now that would be a definition of OMINOUS. And therefore we can conclude we would be better without an agreement on Policing and Justice if it tried to bring about a normalisation which is not in the Community.

    Like I say, Im ok with the way things are.

  • mastermcgrath

    Poor wee Basil Mc Crea ranting about window dressing when all along his so called mates were inside looking out at him, he mus feel like a real fool, perhaps him and Lady Sylvia could get together with Dawn Purvis and form a new unionist labour party to challenge the conservative/dup/uup alliance (DUCUNF)

  • Coll Ciotach

    Bring it down – put this staelet out of its misery – there should never ever be any reconstruction of Stormont. Unionism is incapable of exercising civil power

  • mastermcgrath

    WELL IT CERTAINLY LOOKS LIKE A REAL OPTION. FOREVER TO LIVE IN A JOINT AUTHORITY LIMBO LAND. PERHAPS THIS HAS BEEN THEIR LAST CHANCE AND IT HASNT WORKED AND NOW THEY THINK THAT IF THEY REGROUP AND ALL GET TOGETHER THEY WILL BE STRONGER….. HOW WRONG THEY ARE…THEY JUST DONT GET IT.

  • Cynic2

    Dear Coll

    Time for bed now. Close the computer down now. You have a big day in school tomorrow

  • DisgustedinDERRY

    If the parading issue is conceded by Sinn Fein, something I doubt very much, the loyalist marchers come Easter, won’t toe line, won’t do the DUP/UUP any favours and certainly won’t do the residents in the areas they are not wanted any favours. This new year in this new decade of this new century should put to bed the issue of parading. Commemorating an event that happened over 300 years ago, move on with the rest of Europe. Imagine the Germans commemorating the 30 years war with pathetic racist banners dedicated to dead terrorists, supported by the 2nd battalion blue bag brigade, not a chance.

  • DisgustedinDERRY

    By the way Eamonn I’m not so sure about your choice of words, a wee bit devious me thinks!

  • tacapall

    At a quick guess, when one considers how often senior DUP figures have quoted the ‘parading issue’ and ‘community confidence’ I think it would be safe to say that the DUP wanted SF to ensure, even guarantee, that there would be full-blown Orange parades again taking place along the Ormeau and Garvaghy roads and probably quite a few other areas in order to bolster confidence in the unionist community.
    That scenario would leave confidence within the national community at rock bottom.
    SF know that to concede on parades would leave them totally exposed.
    Posted by wje on Jan 20, 2010 @ 10:00 PM

    They have nothing to concede on Parades, Unionism has lost that argument, didn’t the pro British people of Wootton Bassett decide that fate.

    http://explore.dailymail.co.uk

    David Cameron said such a march would be unacceptable. ‘I think this group are just saying that because they want to get some cheap publicity. Their views are completely reprehensible to the overwhelming majority of not just the British public, but British Muslims as well.

    Yesterday a clearly angry Mr Brown said he was horrified that Choudary was shamefully attempting to hijack the market town for political purposes.

    ‘I am personally appalled by the prospect of a march in Wootton Bassett,’ he said. ‘Any attempt to use this location to cause further distress and suffering to those who have lost loved ones would be abhorrent and offensive.’

    Maybe Unionists should look at this again, why should the Nationalist residents of Ormeau Road or wherever let Anti Catholic parades with bands who honour loyalist terrorists march by, the very same spot where their loved ones were murdered. If its right that the people of Wootton Bassett not to be offended by religious fanatics, then surely the same rights can be given to residents who dont want these parades going through their areas.

  • Marcionite

    Coll Ciotach – I hear ya. And agree with you. NI was constructed to have an inbuilt artificial majority not based on culture (if unionists were so foreign to the rest Of Ireland prior to partition then why didn’t they campaign for a seperate state with Ireland long before 1921? It was to solely exercise power).

    So a statelet founded upon sectarian principles can only be sustained and upheld by instituions that too are sectarian? How long would you think aparteid would have lasted in SA if those who had the state ammunition were black?

    Education (state education syllini were so pro British and anti Irish that the RC sector were given no choice but to opt out), power and policing, the pillars of society had to be sectarian too to sustain the perennial Rhodesian-mentality of unionist regime.

    When will unionists stop being Ian Smiths and become DeKlerks and embrace ur fellow Irishmen as equal citizens under a fresh constitutional arrangements and flags anthems and symbols acceptable to all? Does it nit rankle you to be eternal Baldricks to the Blackadders if British imperialism?

    If keeping the parades body is the price we pay for not getting P+J then so be it. Nats/republicans should not be seen to be desperate for power sharing. Let’s collapse the quisling Stormont and sue for a national constitutional convention.

  • DisgustedinDERRY

    tacapall

    What an excellent analysis, no pro/march unionist would dare argue with you on that, fair play!!!

  • DisgustedinDERRY

    Marcionite

    Your a legend!!

  • DisgustedinDERRY

    Marcionite

    Your a legend!!

  • DisgustedinDERRY

    Marcionite

    Your a legend, nicely put.

  • Dixie Elliott

    I think it might snow again, or it could rain instead…Sleet Maybe?

    PSF are trying to get into the driving seat but the thing is, where will they go if they can’t even get the frigging thing to start?

    If Gerry stops lying we’ll know he’s dead!

  • danielmoran

    someone…msg 12
    It depends on whether you mean EM’s statement of fact, which is tonight confirmed, [marty will report to ard C on state of affairs 2moro]
    or his conclusions from them, are bollocks. I await further updates. [for some reason, this reminds me of the reported death of princess margaret.

  • someone

    danielmoran,

    My message 12 referred to your message 6 reproduced below:

    Eamon.  I’m not clear how this DUP/UUP alliance is going to prevent SF being the biggest party at stormont post election unless they formally join up under a new group/party. Won’t they go into election in their own party names? it doesn’t look like they’re planning a prmanent change in unionist distinct party entities. so their mla’s will be counted seperate from each other. This is weird.

    My comment on Mr Mallie talking bollocks was in regard to his notion of Conservative DUP pact which your first comment on this thread was about – I was not referring to his post at the top of this thread at all.

  • Cynic2

    Oh the naievity .

    When the time comes boys SF will sell you

  • DisgustedinDERRY

    Don’t be a fool Cynic, when the time comes Gerry Adams will be president of Ireland and Martin McGuinness will be Justice Minister of a 32 county republic.

  • FitzjamesHorse

    Good to see Wootton Bassett quoted here as I raised this myself a few nights ago.
    Wootton Bassett sets the precedent.
    The notion that there is a “unionist” de Klerk out there ready to seriously deal is oft brought up but really there is no-one.
    Trimble was oft thought of one.
    But then again Gerry Adams is hardly Nelson Mandela.

  • Coll Ciotach

    Absolutely – Wooton Bassett put an end to the right to march argument

  • tacapall

    The notion that there is a “unionist” de Klerk out there ready to seriously deal is oft brought up but really there is no-one.
    Posted by FitzjamesHorse on Jan 21, 2010 @ 12:44 AM

    The reality is Unionism has nowhere else to go but accept the inevitable “Sharing power with Nationalists and treating them as equal partners” they must find a “de Klerk” and do it quickly, otherwise Nationalists, could accept nothing less than “Joint Sovereignty”. They are banking on the illusion that the Tories will be more Unionist friendly, indeed Cameron probably promised them the moon and the stars, but The Irish People know from 100s of years experience, that they will “Throw them to the wolves” when British interests come first.

  • FitzjamesHorse

    Well I tend to agree about 90%. Unionism is painted into a corner. They can have Plan A, Plan B, Plan X Y Z…..and none of them are palatable to them.
    Its basically a case of Heads the Republicans win…..and Tails the Unionists lose.
    There is a certain inevitability.
    The Greening of the West..council area by council area….constituency by constituency…..power sharing…..policing etc……the constitutional position that Norn Iron is semi detached (unlike say Yorkshire which simply has no right to opt out of the UK)

    these are not genies which will go back in the bottle.
    All the reforms are “banked”
    The 10% where I disagree with you is that five or even ten years of Cameron in Downing Street WILL give the Unionists a measure of respite and probably South Belfast and maybe FST.

    But these for nationalists will be temporary setbaks.
    The trend is one way.

  • DisgustedinDERRY

    800 hundred years of occupation, what’s another 20 or 30, one thing for sure, as shit sticks to a blanket, this little island will belong to the Irish people, Protestant, Catholic and dissenter. Westminster’s grasp on land they don’t have a right to occupy is slipping and wont hold for long. What will Mr unionist do then?

    He will do exactly as he should now, embrace his nationalist brothers. Do the inevitable so we can all move on from this 17th century squabble.

    Grow up unionism for your children’s sake.

  • tacapall

    Everything is up for grabs, Unionist unity and all that, hung parliament, No movement. Nationalists could shock them, play them at their own game, after all these people are refusing to treat us as equals, The SDLP are finished, their cosying up to the UUP and being connected to “Voluntary Coalition” which is another word for Unionist majority rule, will not be lost on the Nationalist electorate. Sinn Fein could take most of their westminister seats as well. When it comes to Unionists rigging polls, Nationalist always respond in numbers. In that scenario Sinn Fein might hold the balance of power at Westminister.

  • FitzjamesHorse

    as they dont actually sit at Westminster, it is not relevant except that it keeps a member of another party winning thru abstentionism.
    which of course is proper and right.

    i wont write off the SDLP politically or elrctorally. in some senses they are the civil rights party and are victims of their own success.

    what exactly can labour in britain having delivered on the NHSor Education…etc. Likewise the SDLP has a dilemna.
    of course the rivalry….I would say at times….hatred…..between SDLP & SF is intense but the bottom line is that they are on the same side.

    the position that nationalists all find themselves .in 2010….is not a place any unionist including the saintly moderate unionists want nationalists to be…..and that position has jointly been achieved by SDLP & SFNow of course both lots of party members will claim all the credit for their party and dismiss the other party but frankly neither could have got to this place on their own.

  • FitzjamesHorse

    on the deKlerk issue…it should not matter whether a deklerk emerges in 2010 or 2020. Logially for unionists they have a choice of “no no no” Jim Allister and a kinda scorched earth policy……or a deklerk who wakes up smells the coffee and gets the best deal possible for “his” people.
    but ultimately its not relevant.

  • tacapall

    as they dont actually sit at Westminster, it is not relevant except that it keeps a member of another party winning thru abstentionism.
    Posted by FitzjamesHorse on Jan 21, 2010 @ 01:44 AM

    FitzjamesHorse thats if you believe that Sinn Fein wont eventually take their seats at Westminister if it moves Nationalism closer to their goal. The Oath, is mere words, actions speak louder, I’d lick a rats ass if it would bring unity closer, but thats me, I imagine most Nationalists like myself at this moment, are at boiling point with Unionism over their intransigence on equality and power sharing. The Malcolm X stragety has to come into play, by any means necessary, pacifistly of course.

  • McGrath

    Lot of mastbatory drivel in this thread. That aside, the DUP and SF as we know then are done, time to go write new manifestos. The only way forward is. Compete shift in politics.

  • Cynic2

    This thread is like being in the Holylands on St Patrick’s day – lots of politics students drunk on alcopops and patriotism, wearing their celtic shirts, burning neighbours cars and stoning the cops to free Ireland.

    Never mind. Those of you who manage to get over the hangover and scrape a 2.2 will eventually get a job probably as a ‘customer service executive’ in a call centre owned by an English or American company and paying just over the minimum wage. nerve mind. Gerry will tell you that you have never had it so good and you will believe him.

  • danielmoran

    ‘i was not referring to his post at top of this thread at all’.

    Ok someone. got that.

  • Henry94

    McGrath

    The only way forward is. Compete shift in politics.

    I’m sympathetic to that idea but I’m reminded of the old saying that when a man marries his mistress he creates a vacancy. I’d love to see a single all Ireland party speaking for nationalists in the north but I fear it would open up space for the ultras.

    My main political concern is SF’s battle of ideas with those who still believe in armed struggle. Much as I’d like to see and end to all the baggage I am reminded that previous leaderships that threw off militancy left the field clear for their replacements.

  • joeCanuck

    The sticking point seems to be the parading issue. Both parties need to step back and ask themselves fundamental questions about parades.
    SF needs to ask themselves if the Ashdown proposals make it more or less likely that a parade will be allowed down the Garvaghy Road.
    DUP need to ask themselves if a return to direct rule will increase the likelihood of a parade down the Garvaghy Road.
    It really should be a non issue.
    SF cannot give permission for such a parade.
    The only possibility of any sort of “parade” will come about if the OO sit down and negotiate something with the residents.
    The Ashdown proposals require that.
    If direct rule comes back, there will be no parade.

  • “This is ominous.”

    Shock and awe. MLAs could lose their salaries and expenses.

  • heamaisbharney

    “Shock and awe. MLAs could lose their salaries and expenses.”

    What was that song, “We should be so lucky…”

    What would happen? Would we notice anything apart from copious doses of hot air telling us what we are missing?

  • Marcionite

    Firstly, my last post said ‘syllini’ instead of ‘syllibi’ and also the word ‘if’ is used instead of ‘of’. Thanks to my iPhone for its ‘spellchecking’.

    Cynic 2
    I do not belong to the demographic you have cited in any shape or form but where would we be without our stereotypes to anchor ourselves too during the stormy winds of debate.

    But you do have a point-let though about call centres, but can someone please tell me how I go about creating a new thread here?

    Anyway…

    if NI has to exist, then ok but only if all existing parties in NI decide to dissolve themselves and reorganise along left-right-centre lines like other democracies otherwise it is not a democracy but a tribal democracy one sees in many parts of sub saharan Africa. The constitutional question can be argued for every 15-20 years in a referendum allowing MLAs a free vote on the issue.

    But in the event of an all Irish republic, the same dissolution of the parties, north and south would need to take place still so that new organisations that everyone at least does not feel revulsion at, can be formed to kickstart the Second Republic.

  • FitzjamesHorse

    23.“This is ominous.”

    Shock and awe. MLAs could lose their salaries and expenses.

    Not to mention journos expenses. The bar at the Stormont Hotel would have to close.