“What does it tell us about ourselves…”

RTE has the full report on the cover up of child abuse within the Dublin Archdiocese stretching back over 30 years… A shameful litany says Ruth Gledhill… appropriate for the context of the story… In this piece from the BBC:

Maeve Lewis, director of victim support group One in Four said the report helps get to the heart of the power structure in the Catholic Church in Ireland. “What is it about Irish society that we will pay such deference to an institution like the Catholic Church or indeed to government institutions as well – what does it tell us about ourselves?”

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  • joeCanuck

    There was total silence from most people for too long.
    When I passed my 11+ there was the usual college to attend, where my brothers went but a friend tried to persuade me to go to a Christian Brothers run one. I asked my Headmaster about it and he almost went ballistic warning me not to consider it for a moment and never to mention it again.
    The College I did attend took boarders and I knew from friends that abuse was carried out by some of the priests. I told my parents and they didn’t believe me at first but a number of years later they became worried and I persuaded them to remove 2 other brothers to the State College.
    I think a lot of people were just too afraid to speak up.
    Glad the Justice Minister said he would pursue the perpetrators through the Courts no matter what their age.

  • Panic, These Ones Likes It Up Em.

    That religious institutions should always look to protect the Institutions is terribly sad.

    The perpatrators and those that covered it up should be brought to book by the legal system and made to do the just amount of time in jail.

    I hope this happens but will it ?

  • Garza

    These are the people who say homosexuality is wrong, sex should only be used as a method to reproduce and abortion is a sin. Why should we listen to what these “men” say? These men are not holy, no-one is!

    You can call a dog turd holy if you put in a glass case and throw a bit of incense on it.

  • percy

    garza,
    ignorant comments:
    for a start the problem was/is sexual deviancy..
    the homosexual line is a misnomer.

  • Fabianus

    Panic

    What those Roman Catholic bishops did was monstrous. They knew children were being raped by their priests and they covered up for them. Of course they should be brought to trial and if found guilty given very, very long prison sentences.

    But I suspect they won’t be. The RoI likes to pretend that it’s moved on but when push comes to shove there remains a reluctance to upset Rome. There won’t be justice for most of those whose lives were blighted.

  • Panic, These Ones Likes It Up Em.

    Reply to Fabianus

    I doubt that those that colluded with paedophiles will be brought to book. Of course they should be as they are guilty of colluding with paedophiles even though they were not paedophiles themselves.

    It could be argued that those that covered up were worse than the paedophiles. The paedophiles could at least try to explain their actions as an uncontrollable compulsion.

    Those that covered up for them do not have such an excuse.

  • joeCanuck

    Yes, Percy.
    The majority of the abuse would appear to have been carried out on boys but not exclusively.
    Homosexuality, male or female, has nothing to do with it. It was/is simple deviancy.

  • John East Belfast

    HOME RULE = ROME RULE

    I used to think that was an old early 20th century unionist sound bite but it was much truer than I thought.

    My wife’s Protestant granny used to say “dont go near those Priests – dont let them get their breath around you”

    She was far from being a bigot – a kind and sweet old lady and I just put her comments down to a generational thing not worthy of rebuke.

    However that generation of Protestants were perhaps more tuned in than first thought

    That this was shameful for the Catholic Church is obvious but even worse was The Irish State which abdicated its responsibility to its children.

    Please dont talk to me about 50 years of unionist mis rule again – 26 county Irish Republicanism has no clean hands when it comes to creating the environment for the NI Stormont regime. The latter didnt live in a vacuum and although Catholics were clearly blind to the control and corruption of the Irish Catholic hierarchy it wasnt missed by the NI unionists

  • joeCanuck

    I hear what you say, John, but the abuse by Catholic clergy and nuns was/is widespread in N.I. too. Just hasn’t been revealed yet; hopefully it will eventually.

  • wild turkey

    ‘Homosexuality, male or female, has nothing to do with it. It was/is simple deviancy. ‘

    JC nail on head.

    Then again, celibacy could, or should, be considered a manifestation of deviancy.

  • joeCanuck

    In addition to my #9 comment, such abuse has occurred both here in Canada and in the USA. Perhaps it is a worldwide thing.

    Agree wild turkey. It’s a totally unnatural state which is probably why a significant number of priests apparently indulge in homosexual relations.
    That’s fine, just so long as they keep children out of it.

  • Cahal

    JEB, before you completely lose the run of yourself, remember that the vast majority of priests are decent people. I like how you are using this to justify the unionist junta/stormont regime – very tenuous.

  • joeCanuck

    Cahal,
    Don’t know your definition of “vast” but I agree that the majority are indeed decent caring people, in my, admittedly non-recent, experience.

  • John O’Connell

    JoeCanuck

    such abuse has occurred both here in Canada and in the USA. Perhaps it is a worldwide thing.

    It is not only a worldwide thing. It relates to every profession, to fathers and mothers on their own children and to every group that comes into contact with children. It is happening everywhere but it is particularly sad when it comes from people who profess to teach about Jesus Christ. But it is still a very low percentage of the population committing these crimes.

  • exile

    yeah well said JEB: the fact that thousands of paedophile priests across the world systematically raped and abused children in their care while actively protected by, at least in Ireland’s case, the state completely absolves Unionist misrule in northern Ireland and negates the deep pain caused to the Catholic community there. Hear, hear.

    Next.

  • exile

    [i]But it is still a very low percentage of the population committing these crimes. [/i]

    Yet an abnormally high proportion of Irish priests committed these acts: explain that one, our Messiah.

  • joeCanuck

    still a very low percentage of the population committing these crimes.

    The only acceptable percentage is zero.

    Same is true of violence against women, thinking of the U.N. Secretary’s initiative announced yesterday.

  • exile

    [i]The only acceptable percentage is zero.[/i]

    That will never happen Joe: too many people are born with this sickness and/or choose to perfom these acts out of sheer wickedness. The real question is why the perpetration of this form of abuse is endemic within the Catholic Church.

  • John East Belfast

    A few isolated Priests proportionately no different than the rest of the population was the line of defence in the late eighties and early nineties.

    Then it was a lot of Priests but the hierarchy was not involved.

    Now it is clear it went to the very top of the Irish Catholic hierarchy that was more concerned about its reputation and money than the welfare of children.

    Absolutely shameful and rotten that anyone could still put up any kind of defence for this now.

    However from a political point of view it is even worse and involved the defference of both the State and the police and probably the judiciary.

    Totally rotten.

    If you think the attitude of NI Unionists and the Stormont regime was not shaped in this environment then you are hopelessly in denial

  • John O’Connell

    exile

    Your Messiah responds: I think you’ll find that it is a very low % of priests too, the vast majority are trying to be decent men. The bad priests had many victims, like any paedophile group member and that is what we’re getting from this inquiry.

    But I would like to apologise to all those who were affected by priests who are supposed to have administered in my name and who were taken along the way by Satan. There can not be any special position for priests in terms of being protected from the evils of Satanism and I don’t understand why people feel that they are above all the evils that affect the rest of the population. But they have a special position in society which means that they are more culpable in the eyes of God and will face greater torment on judgement day.

  • joeCanuck

    That will never happen Joe:

    Unfortunately, I have to agree, Exile.
    But severe prison sentences might deter some from acting on their impulses and that would be an advance.

  • joeCanuck

    To add to my comment, I think that child sexual abuse should be treated equivalent to murder with appropriate sentences.
    Serial child sexual abusers should be put away forever.

  • Not one priest or Bishop will see the inside of a court or prison cell. The virus is strong enough to bypass both law and reason. It survives on ignorance and fear and therefore will never go hungry.

    http://forum.richarddawkins.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=100974

  • John East Belfast

    John O’Connell

    What about the Archbishops who abdicated their responsibility to protect children and instead chose to protect their assets and their reputation – are you going to apologise for them too or do you just want to pedal the old a few rogue priests line ?

  • John O’Connell

    JEB

    I’m not suggesting that it was just a few rogue priests. I’m telling the truth of the situation as far I can see it in terms of the % of priests that committed these crimes. The Archbishops would be culpable too and I apologise if anyone thinks that they were acting in my name when doing these terrible deeds.

    I firmly believe that serial offenders who cannot control their impulses should be put away for life or until they can control those impulses. That goes for all serious crimes.

    But what about Kincora, my friend. Are your views consistent on abuse or do you just not like our priest ridden society?

  • John West Belfast

    Glad to hear of John East Belfast’s Protestant granny. A nice old lady, of course. Had she any view on Catholics being assassinated?

    Did nayone catch those women abusing babies in English kindergartens recently? Or should we go elsewhere to get self rightous about that.

    And the One in Four mob are smelling more money. What is their governnance system? There were quite a few exposes on this group, whose God is Mammon (and, in its homo founder’s case, looking after young kids).

  • John East Belfast

    My views on abuse are very consistant but I cant see how Kincora has any relevance to the role of the Catholic Church, the ROI State apparatus and what is said about Irish Society as per this Report

  • joeCanuck

    Irish Society

    John, although I agree with some of what you are saying, this type of abuse is widespread (yes, Catholic priests north and south are offenders) and needs to be addressed everywhere.

  • John O’Connell

    JoeCanuck

    this type of abuse is widespread (yes, Catholic priests north and south are offenders)

    I feel it my duty to inform you and all that this abuse is wisespread, yes, and not only affects priests but all professions that come into contact with children and indeed parents. I think telling the truth is best as there are those who will feel a false sense of security with non-priests who may be paedophiles.

  • John South Belfast

    All we need is some priests to be in the GAA and then we can really let rip, using sources as our grannies to back us up.
    Has Mark Harbinson posted here yet? How about the Short Strand Provos? Or do paramilitaries pay compensation.

    In our beloved UK, 5 year olds have to be told what an oppresive life transexuals have. I see on Craigslist’s Belfast erotic services page, only one transexual, a Mistress, has a post. Dublin has more. Blame it on the Christian Brothers, never on yourself.

    As regards the Irish, let us remmeber waht James Connolly said about them. Surely Christ did not die for these people. If he did, he was a sucker (not in the Irish sense of coruse).

  • John East Belfast

    JWB

    Nice one – jumping from expressing concern about Priests to accusing her of favouring the assassination of catholics.

    That is the kind of deferent, defensive and unquestioning mindset that allowed the problem to occur in the first place

  • joeCanuck

    who will feel a false sense of security with non-priests who may be paedophiles.

    JOC,
    Stop trying to divert attention from the subject matter being discussed.
    That’s pathetic!

  • Republic of Connaught

    JEB,

    I share your disgust at the evil priests, the career bishops and the gombeen men in Ireland who covered up the crimes of these animals. But they will serve their sentence upon their death so they will not escape their crimes.

    However, I think you’re living in fantasy land if you think the disgusting behaviour of priests has anything to do with the partition of Ireland.
    If no Priest in Ireland ever abused a child do you honestly think it would make any difference to the Protestant, British, partitionist mentality of Ulster Unionism?

    Are Unionists ‘simply British’ only because they dislike Catholic Priests? If we all become Buddhists in Ireland shall the country be united?

  • Seimi

    ‘If you think the attitude of NI Unionists and the Stormont regime was not shaped in this environment then you are hopelessly in denial’ – JEB

    Their attitude and the Stormont regime were shaped by something which came to light 40 years later??? So NI Unionists and those within the Stormont regime knew about this and did nothing???

    ‘My views on abuse are very consistant but I cant see how Kincora has any relevance to the role of the Catholic Church, the ROI State apparatus and what is said about Irish Society as per this Report’ – Way to side step an answer John.

    What the Catholic church, worldwide, not just in Ireland (sorry ’bout that!), did, and then covered up, is shameful. Every single person who committed these crimes, and every single person who helped by covering up, should be tried and jailed. Then they should be ex-communicated. As ‘men of the cloth’, surely there is no worse punishment?

    But please don’t try and bullshit that this was an Ireland-only thing, or even more laughable, a Southern-Ireland-only thing. Catch yourself on. For once I agree with some of what JOC is saying (no offence intended JOC) – this is a global problem, which occurs in all walks of life, and at all levels of society. What you should focus on JEB, is not ‘how can I blame this on those southern feckers’, but ‘how can this be stopped/controlled, for the sake of the children/victims who suffer every day, and continue to suffer into their adult lives.

  • John East Belfast

    ROC

    From my point of view my unionism is not based on my religion – true.

    However there is little doubt that post 1798 the fact that Protestantism and Unionism became synomenous was a lot to do with the perception of the role of the Catholic Church in the cause of Irish nationalism. This would have been cemented by the early 20th Century and the rallying cry of Home Rule = Rome Rule.

    Therefore although the Catholic Church has undoubtedly contributed to the cause of Irish Independence it has been a hindrance to the cause of Irish unity.

    The question was always are the Northern unionists simply a shower of unreformable anti catholic bigots or was there cause and foundation for their suspicion through and/or outright antagonism ?

    I think the role of the Irish Catholic Church in the post 1921 Irish State was unhealthy and what we are witnessing in these reports is the eventual outworking of that.

  • Seimi

    I’ve had an idea for a sequel to ‘Being John Malkovitch’ – ‘Being John East Belfast’. What a trip that would be!!!

    Are you SERIOUSLY trying to say that the partition of Ireland is connected to sexually abusive, paedophile priests? Seriously!?

  • John East Belfast

    Seimi

    “Their attitude and the Stormont regime were shaped by something which came to light 40 years later???”

    You are missing the point.

    Of course Protestants didnt know there was wide spread abuse 40 years ago.

    However you have to realise that Irish Protestants did not exist in the kind of environment that Irish Catholics did.

    Central control was viewed with deep suspicion and although clergy men were shown respect they were not in any sense put on a pedestal. Infact in most Protestant churches the congregation can effectively change their minister if they no longer want him.
    There was no mystery and no deferrence going all the way back to Rome.

    As a result looking on Catholicism from the outside (and not ignoring the theological differences) caused Protestants to view the Catholic hierarchy with suspicion.

    Of course that suspicion and antagonism was mutual and the concern by the Irish Catholic hierarchy that Irish Catholic girls would be tended by Protestant doctors or Catholic doctors educated at the Protestant Trinity College is what scuppered Browne’s mother and child bill

  • John East Belfast

    Seimi

    Wise up

    The title of the thread is “what does this tell us about ourselves”

    I feel I am one of the few on this thread trying to address the question. A lot of people are simply saying that the priest hood is no different tnan any other profession and Ireland is no different than any other country

    To be honest I am more interested in what it says about the Political environment in the ROI than what it says about the Catholic Church. I am also trying to explore how that culture contributed to the pre partition unionist mindset and the Stormont regime.

    As I say unless you feel the NI Unionists are unreformable bigots for the sake of it you have to ask why they think the way they do and from where do their fears arise ?

    If you are not interested in those questions then you are not interested in Irish unity or indeed a true Republic

  • Fabianus

    Some of the comments here are beneath contempt.

    How dare anybody use the sexual abuse of little children as a vehicle to push their nasty sectarian agenda? You’re no better than the paedophile priests.

    Fuck off back to your cesspits, you evil, uncaring cunts. You disgust me and I wish a moderator would close this thread right now.

  • Seimi

    So you are saying that once a priest moved in to an area, that was it? He stayed? He couldn’t be removed? Really?

    Anyway, tell me how what you have just posted proves that partition and the creation of the Irish Free State caused the rise in paedophile priests.

    What has Browne’s mother and child bill got to do with this? You can’t just throw in a wee piece of info you learned in history class and then try and make it fit the ‘partition created paedo-priests’ line. It doesn’t work like that.

    Seriously John, you need to wise up here,yer losin’ the run o’ yersel’, as some people might say..

  • joeCanuck

    Now number 1 story on BBC World News, at least in N.A.
    Good.

  • Seimi

    ‘The title of the thread is “what does this tell us about ourselves”

    I feel I am one of the few on this thread trying to address the question’

    ‘Please dont talk to me about 50 years of unionist mis rule again – 26 county Irish Republicanism has no clean hands when it comes to creating the environment for the NI Stormont regime. The latter didnt live in a vacuum and although Catholics were clearly blind to the control and corruption of the Irish Catholic hierarchy it wasnt missed by the NI unionists’

    That was part of your first post here. On a thread about the abuse of children by clergy, you raised unionist mis-rule, Republicanism and NI Stormont regime, ALL in one paragraph. Before that, you used your wife’s grandmother as an example of how you would be right. How is that ‘addressing the question?’ Tell me. Cos from where I’m sittin’ it’s pretty pathetic.

  • Republic of Connaught

    I agree, JEB, the Catholic Church had too much power in the Republic. It was a mistake the country and the people had to learn from.

    But Catholic Priests abused kids in Northern Ireland also so let’s see when a report from NI comes out how they were dealt with in a British and not ‘Rome-Rule’ controlled state. Not very different at all, I would guess.

  • joeCanuck

    Agree, Republic of Connaught.
    And we’ve heard nothing about abuse in the rest of the U.K. either.
    I can’t believe it didn’t happen there too.
    The truth will out eventually.

  • John East Belfast

    Seimi

    “Anyway, tell me how what you have just posted proves that partition and the creation of the Irish Free State caused the rise in paedophile priests.”

    Where did I say that ?
    It is you who is getting the run of yourself.

    “What has Browne’s mother and child bill got to do with this? You can’t just throw in a wee piece of info you learned in history class and then try and make it fit the ‘partition created paedo-priests’ line. It doesn’t work like that.”

    I cant believe you are asking me a question like that.
    The collapse of the Mother & Browne bill and the 1949 government as a result of Catholic hierarchy has everything to do with this !

    The Irish Catholic Church shaped Irish Society and also contributed to the Northern unionist mindset – I cant see why you have a problem with that ?

    The fact that the Irish Catholic Church was given such an institutionalised role in the State is evidenced by the ability to cover these crimes up for so long.

    The fact that the majority of Irish Catholics were in unquestioning deference to the Catholic Church also contributed to this cover up.

    Therefore with ROI State, Catholic Church and Irish Catholics creating this environment what effect does this have on Irish Protestants ? – Quite a lot I would suspect.

    Anyhow what do YOU think this whole episode tells us about ourselves ?

    Fabianus

    What are you saying – we dont discuss things about Irish Society that are too painful ?

  • Deborah Cullen

    The UK seems to have adopted a more secular and liberal attitude than Ireland in state/spiritual matters.(2oth century) There have been scandals, but nothing on this scale. The Northern state has not yet had a case to answer as it was not a de facto Theocracy like the South. But questions remain.
    THIS monstrous report relates only to the Catholic Church and its widespread abuse of children. It has no bearing on politics.

  • Damian

    The Catholic church is like the mafia except not so benevolent. the idea that there are decent priests or even people that are accepting of the lies and criminal behavior is disgusting. priests are all covering up. gary glitter is a better roal model for kids and be a better bishop.

  • OC

    Pope John Paul II declared that the Catholic Church pedophile scandals were an invention of the American media.

    So much for Papal Infallability. No way should that bozo be made a saint, nor anything close.

    It now appears that Catholic priests in every English speaking country in the world were doing these things, but even worse, the Church was covering it up. Soon, it will be uncovered in every non-English speaking country in the world where Catholic priests are to be found.

    How nice that the RoI taxpayer will cover the damages.

  • K.A.T. Jones

    Isn’t it great we can get on a moral high horse and use the ills of Irish Catholic society to butress Unionism, other discredited creeds and our own sense of worth? Just like the Ku Klux Klan did in their hey day.

    A true analysis of this situation would have to look at why the Christian Brothers, to take one example, had to take care of lunatic kids in Artane and similar places. It would laos have to ask why kids were dragooned into joining the CBS at age 12 or so.

    It would also have to aks what did people like George Colley, Charlie Haughey, Bertie Ahern and countless others do to repay the debt tey owed to such exploited brothers.

    The 1916 Rebellion really screwed things up. Instead of the Jesuit trained Crown Catholics getting the whole pie, they had to share it with Paddy Muck and Micky Stink (read your Joyce).

    What does it tell us about yourselves? If you are one of the pompous, priest bashing (ethnic )Catholic pricks posting here, you don’t want to know.

  • Fabianus

    JEB

    “What are you saying – we dont discuss things about Irish Society that are too painful ? ”

    You know very well what I’m saying and it isn’t that. I hold no brief for Irish society and even less for the Roman Catholic Irish society.

    You and others here are making a political football of children’s suffering and blighted lives.

    Keep it up and I’ll start suspecting you of having a less than honorable attitude to children. That’s all I’m prepared to say.

  • common sense

    the church in the south got away with it because the state made it easy to do so. i would guess any institution made up overwhelmingly of single men, invested with authority, who are bound to celibacy would produce about the same volume of crimes against children, irregardless of whatever formal beliefs they held to.

    christianity, in all its guises (john, east belfast) imposes an extremely cramped and distorted version of sexuality on human beings. forced celibacy makes it worse for the rc church, i imagine, but what kincora, whats-his-name the drumcree stalwart now revealed as a pedophile, and the southern scandals have in common is long training in a highly repressive approach to sexuality.

  • Úlfr

    It is disengenuous to suggest, as some here have, that this scandal is only about abusive priests or indeed the Catholic Church’s attempt to hide the truth.

    The attitude of the State has also come under scrutiny and legitimate questions have been asked about the impunity that seems to have been provided to the abusers by, for example, An Garda Síochána.

    It is also legitimate comment to suggest that there was something rotten at the core of the State’s relationship with the Church.

    ‘Home Rule is Rome Rule’ is perhaps a crude shorthand but there are questions to answer on this front.

  • greagoir o frainclin

    Ah such a docile lot Irish folk are…docile, placid and naive….Sure no wonder we were colonized and we forever lost whatever we were supposed to have had. A people exploited throughout the ages by whoever that came along and saw such a gullible lot. Kings, Queens, the Church, Priests, Politicians, etc… all imposing their will on innocent docile Paddy.

    We recently had the debacle with the banks and financial institutions, with folk now having to repay their massive debts. Before that we had endless tribunals concerning political corruption. And now this again where the diabolical sins of the Catholic Church come to light once more.

    Seems to be as bad as everywhere else….but folk here accept it. So there’ll be no angry protests on the streets. There’ll be no bodies of priests and politicians and bankers hanging from lamp posts as the Dail and Catholic Churches throughout the land burn.

    Folk here have the X Factor to watch instead, as well as Celebrity Get Me Outta Here…oh and the Late Late Toy Show etc…

    For they are far more important matters.

    No wonder Ireland (north and south) has never produced a heavyweight thinker or philosopher. Too much wrapped up in religion (or ‘spitituality’ to give it the new handle) and servitude. The Celtic Tiger introduced us to vast amounts of money for the very first time. Gullible Paddy bought the dream. We thought we were free…as the debts mounted. Servitude will always be the occupation of folk here. Mask this with whatever – nationalism, religion, democracy, etc.. it only hides the truth.
    And gas, but for all this ‘spitituality’ that folk here express it has done S.F.A. for people in general. Singing all the Songs of Praise did nothing to heed the Troubles in the north…. but it was common sense that won out. However, common sense is rare in Ireland.

    So c’mon everyone, bow down before the one you serve…

  • John East Belfast

    Fabianus

    You bury your head in the sand if you wish on the issues but you only undermine your own position by taking both stupid as well as cheap shots at me.

    Yours was the kind of 3 monkey attitude to evil that allowed the thing to fester for 40 years

  • Fabianus

    JEB

    Whatever. Any thoughts on the victims yet?

  • John von Hitter

    John East Belfast

    Methinks your antipathy to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church colours your views.

    Check out the Irish Times’ office in Dublin. Rent boys were available outside, probably still are, when the Irish Press owned it. So much for media scrutiny.

    Also, Trinity College toilets were a major hangout for even younger rent boys. The saying Trinity queer comes from somewhere.

    Does East Belfast have rent boys or is it another world in that way as well.

  • Jo

    JoeC

    Could I ask, please, was yr headmasters anger b/c he was aware of what went on at the CB school, or b/c he thought it not good enough or what? I was a little confused at what caused the concerns you raised in yr 1st contribution. Thanks.

  • Cahal

    common sense
    “the church in the south got away with it because the state made it easy to do so.”

    So how did they get away with it in the US, Canada, up north, etc…? Did the state make it easy there too?

  • joeCanuck

    Jo,
    I didn’t know at the time being only 10 and sexually naive.
    With hindsight I am pretty sure it’s because he suspected something about sexual abuse. Can’t have simply been physical abuse for which the Christian Brothers were somewhat infamous because we got more than enough of that in the College I did go to.

  • Jo

    Thanks, Joe, it sort of confirms an impression I had/have that what went on was known about in educational and other circles but that the overall attitude was a mix of deference and fear and uncertainty about whether victims were in fact telling the truth (not being simply malicious).

  • joeCanuck

    Jo,
    Yes, I think so too. Another thing that amazed me when I found out about the sexual abuse of (mainly) boarders was that the fathers of some of my peers had been boarders in their day too. Abuse must have been going on when they were there too; it didn’t just start 3 decades ago, it was going on when I was there 5 decades ago.
    So why didn’t those fathers at least let their sons be day students if not send them to State schools?

  • John East Belfast

    Fabianus

    “Any thoughts on the victims yet”

    My abhorrence at the whole rotten affair is evidence of my concern for the victims.

    But what point are you making ?

    Do you want Slugger to be a place where we come and wring our hands in anguish or do you want it to be where grown ups tackle the issues and go right to the route cause ?

    This is an Irish political web site and if the ROI State was acquiescent and deferent to an institution covering up crimes by its members then that is fair comment do you not agree ?

  • Fabianus

    JEB

    “My abhorrence at the whole rotten affair is evidence of my concern for the victims.”

    You don’t get it do you? This is the first time you’ve actually mentioned your concern for the victims and only in response to my nudging. It seems to me that your previous posts were little more than some good old-fashioned RoI and RC bashing.

    Nothing wrong with that (I do it too) but there’s a time and place. This thread isn’t it.

  • John East Belfast

    Fabianus

    Sorry but you have got me wrong

  • It’s very good to see Maeve Lewis speaking out – the sheer obviousness of which has always given me a physical sore head every time I think of the neighbouring country, R.o.I. while looking in its direction. Yet no-one down there said a thing for so long. I mean anyway, it’s not just confined to the child abuse thing – that should begin to show just what it is exactly the people are prising in all respects.

    A wonderful thing to say, and high time, one hopes it is only a beginning.

    “What is it about Irish society that we will pay such deference to an institution like the Catholic Church or indeed to government institutions as well – what does it tell us about ourselves?” Maeve Lewis.

  • < continued ...Fabianus wrote:"Of course they [R.C. bishops] should be brought to trial and if found guilty given very, very long prison sentences.But I suspect they won’t be."I agree of course, and fully and very strongly. And I suppose many people reading my comment just above may be incensed at that place in the world being as it is (and other places) while my comment is thought relevant about the importance of the most basically appropriate words alone. When it's real court hearings and jail terms which should and need to be talked about.Yet Maeve Lewis's words seem like a stream in a desert to me. While it is appropriate for me to state the importance of these words alone (evident, yet lacking for so long) I can only point out that this shines up the real, awful, actual light as it really is on the situation (in R.o.I, I mean). And with dejection, so, I can only agree with Fabianus, mentioning that my suggested illumination of the status of the whole thing over years and now indicates that proper action including many jail terms seems all the more unlikely.

  • “Surely Christ did not die for these people?”
    John South Belfast.

    I’m a bit sick of the awful branches of Christianity (particularly those in them who cause abhorrent harm and there certainly are those) who turn either the possibility or fact of Jesus being son of god (or sun god as man representing as the light, a son of the huge sun as symbolic god, meaning the same thing) into something oppositional and devil made.

    Jesus of Nazereth died for no-one, for god’s sake. As far as he was concerned his life just ended. Did he kill himself? Or was it really understandable that those Jews and Romans did what they did? No. Did he beg to be speared and put to death? I can’t believe the sheerly vast extent that suggestions like these, which many Christians speak, ridicule that Jesus, if he was / is a son of god, or it is as any godly man is a son a god, the truth that is / would be of he on earth.

    That “Christ died for you” (or anyone else) is to suggest something evil (though perhaps you have made a mistake in your expression alone, but don’t subscribe to this way of speaking as it is far too awful). What is “dying for”, anyway? Jesus died because the devil (being a body of people) organised to have him so killed, thus the DEVIL exactly symbolising how you need to be if you are a great follower of god, while showing you most explicitly what or of the type of thing he will do to you on earth if you are any follower of god. If you really worship this person, then stop trying to own him and impose the exact opposite of the truth upon him. I don’t doubt that Jesus would have had a life he would have been happy to enjoy, and that is the important thing for if he is king or if he isn’t he is his and should never be owned.

    Parts of Christianity cause me so much pain – at times when I see the authority of the R.C. church being mostly that – authority, but also very significant wrongness in doctrine and illicit control of so many people, it is angering. But at times like this when the more abrasive, let me say actual physical, diabolical crimes of those of authority in the R.C. church when it is by far the worst. When at the same time one must cope with the painful concept of whole countries eating up the ridiculous, aged ‘church of moral authority over your choice and freedom’, still standing toes in line for these mentally defunct cretins of authority.

  • Fabianus

    John East Belfast

    If I got you wrong, mate, I apologise. Sincerely.

    Hope that clears the air. I normally enjoy your comments!

  • Brian MacAodh

    The Church jumped at the chance of partition as it ensured that there wouldn’t be a strong enough majority in the south to challenger their “special position” (although let’s not exagerrate it to a theocracy). As for the north, they knew the marginalized catholic communities would ahve to rely on the Church for school and leadership. Those at Stormont were happy with this.

    This is a disgrace and an abomination. I know many great priests and nuns who have spent their lives working in the 3rd world—this doesnt excuse what the leadership of the church covered up. God it really makes me sick to my stomach to think of the misery and absolute hell some kids went through…….No one in a position of authority is ever made to pay for their crimes, at least in this life.

    I had a friend who was abused by a local coach and he was never the same. Attempted suicide later in his life…even today he is not happy, he has to suffer with panic disorder the rest of his life. These people who perpetrate these acts are vile and deserve to PAY, and those who allow these people to continue abusing kids are just as guilty. They have blood on their hands.

    Absolute scum, all of them involved. You’d think God would give those who knew it was going on the moral courage to speak out??

  • Castlederg

    I don’t think anyone can deny that the history of Ireland has made “Catholic” and “Protestant” into a lot more than just religious denominations. Even non-practicing/lapsed/bad Catholics are still “Catholics”. I am still “a Catholic” to those who know nothing of me but my religion (thanks a lot, small-town NI), though I have not professed that faith since I was old enough to know better. This perceived dichotomy, “you’re either one of us or one of them” has only made us ever more unwilling to question “our own side”.

    All religious institutions are engines of control. People who seek to be IN control seek to make themselves a cog in these engines. So it has always been.

    Where better for a potential child molester to be than employed in work that also works as a perfect disguise?

    – Priests are respected, generally considered good and decent people.

    – Priests are a-sexual, supposedly married to the church and without sexual appetite.

    – Priests are educated, both in apologetics and in managing people (pastoral care). Hurray for mental gymnastics.

    Add a job that puts you in close contact with children beside a society that trusts and respects the authority of a Church to a sexual predator and you have the ultimate recipe for disaster.

  • Fabianus

    I notice that RTE’s The Late Late Show—Late late? Oh yeah, they stole the name from an American show that really was shown late at night—are conveniently ignoring the report.

    Instead they’re running a children’s toy show. They don’t do irony in the RoI do they?

    I seem to recall that when the Ferns report appeared The Late Late Show had another convenient excuse for ignoring it.

    If I were Colm O’Gorman of 1-in-4 I’d make damned sure this story was kept hot at least up until next Friday afternoon. Then I’d fucking DEMAND airtime from the priest-loving RTE.

  • Republic of Connaught

    The Late Late toy show is a time honoured tradition, Fabianus. They’d sooner cancel Christmas than let the kids miss out on it. They’ve already done shows about the abuse and will undoubtedly do more. It’s been on many other Southern programmes anyway.

    And so as you know, the Irish Late Late Show is the oldest running chatshow in the world since the 1960s. They didn’t steal the name from anywhere. The Late Late Show in America only began in the 1990s.

  • Fabianus

    Republic of Connaught

    “The Late Late toy show is a time honoured tradition, Fabianus. They’d sooner cancel Christmas than let the kids miss out on it. They’ve already done shows about the abuse and will undoubtedly do more. It’s been on many other Southern programmes anyway.”

    Hmmm, really? You’d have thought they could have set it back a week, no? How terribly convenient for the Roman Catholic Church. Oh, how the fucking bishops must have been delightedly saying their rosaries. And oh, how the victims of the paedophile priests must have been cursing the state broadcaster.

    “And so as you know, the Irish Late Late Show is the oldest running chatshow in the world since the 1960s. They didn’t steal the name from anywhere. The Late Late Show in America only began in the 1990s.”

    Sorry, I was confusing it with this Late Late Show.

    Clearly those Wisconsin folk had gone forward in time and stolen the show’s title from the Paddies.

    The very name should give you a clue. It’s 100% American.

  • Republic of Connaught

    Fabianus,

    The scandal has already been covered by other RTE and TV3 shows this week. Though I agree with the primary point of shaming the Bishops and Priests, I don’t agree with cancelling a famous Christmas toy show for children across all-Ireland for the sake of discussing evil Priests.

    The Late Late Show on some regional station in Wisconsin in 1960? Can you actually prove the name was ‘stolen’ by RTE, Fabianus? Or do you believe your fellow ‘Paddies’ incapable of coming up with the same name for a talk show in the same language?

    Though there may conceivably have been an RTE producer who watched an obscure show on Milwaukee TV in 1960. Copying names would be nothing new in television; but it has never been mentioned before about the longest running chatshow in the English speaking world.

  • Fabianus

    RofC

    “The Late Late Show on some regional station in Wisconsin in 1960? Can you actually prove the name was ‘stolen’ by RTE, Fabianus?”

    Why would I need to? Use your head, mate. The RTE programme (note, not “show”) was and is broadcast at about 9.30 pm.

    What does this scheduling suggest to you? That it’s late in the evening? If you’re 3 years old yes. Use your head. RTE stole the title from an American programme that really WAS broadcast late at night.

    Hint: RTE steals just about every format known to man and gerbil. If you can point me to an original format then I’ll be beholden to you. They didn’t even want to touch Father Ted until Channel 4 had a hit with it. Wankers.

    “Or do you believe your fellow ‘Paddies’ incapable of coming up with the same name for a talk show in the same language?”

    I’m not a Paddie. I’m British. There’s a difference. We Brits do have original TV programmes which are avidly stolen by the Paddies: cookery programmes, true crime, soaps, panel discussions. In fact, I’d be hard pressed to name one original Irish TV programme.

    Quite pathetic really.

  • Republic of Connaught

    Fabianus,

    So you can’t actually prove with any evidence whatsoever the name was in point of fact copied from an obscure programme on Milwalkee tv in 1960 which no one but a saddo would have wasted his/her time desperately looking up? Fine, I rest my case.

    But your entitled to you conjectures, of course.

    There is indeed nothing more utterly pathetic than a ‘more British than the Queen’ Irish Prod from the north of Ireland being the most bigoted and sectarian saddo who spends his time trying to denigrate the majority of the people from his own home island.

    Truly pathetic.

  • Fabianus

    RoC

    Why are you flogging this deceased horse?

    The Late Late Show.

    I’ve already indicated that its provenance owes just about every fucking thing to America.

    Show: American. Back in the 1960s they were called programmes in Ireland and the UK.

    Late: Meant after the kids went to bed, about 9 pm in the 1960s.

    Late Late: Meant very much after the kids went to bed. We are not referring to a programme that started at 9.30 pm, more like after midnight, by which time the “Late Late Show” has ended. Give me a fucking break!

    “There is indeed nothing more utterly pathetic than a ‘more British than the Queen’ Irish Prod from the north of Ireland being the most bigoted and sectarian saddo who spends his time trying to denigrate the majority of the people from his own home island.”

    I cannot bear the fucking queen. She’s terribly popular in the RoI, didn’t you know?

    Sectarian, moi? No, son, I’m an agnostic. No religion here. Sorry to disappoint.

    I do wish I could be pathetic if only for your sake.

    Alas…. I’m thinking of the myriad TV formats that RTE have lifted wholesale from their betters in Britain.

  • greagoir o frainclin

    Ah come on…no need to lose your head there Fabianus.

    Don’t watch RTE then if it upsets you that much!

    In any ways, comparing a small network like RTE to the likes of the global and resourceful BBC and ITV is rediculous.

    BTW, whatever about the shite on RTE but you would hardly call the relentless soaps and reality TV shows on British television “quality” TV. The BBC is a great British institution and well worth the licence fee, is it not? It’s the only channel now that shows programmes on the arts, wildlife, etc…at primetime. ITV has become too commercial and cheap. The days when it commissioned the likes of Jesus of Nazareth are long gone.

    But maybe you do avidly watch the endless back to back episodes every night of Coronation Street, Emmerdale, Eastenders, or the vacuous hype of Big Brother, the X Factor, I’m a Celebrity Get me Outta here etc etc….plus that cheap gameshow on UTV late at night.

  • Fabianus

    greagoir

    I don’t watch RTE. In fact I only watch TV for the news and current affairs programmes. I use the set principally as a monitor for my DVDs.

    However I take the Sunday Times, and its Culture Magazine gives me TV listings. Glancing through them in (usually) a vain search for worthwhile viewing I’m struck by the number of programme formats that RTE have lifted from BBC and ITV, not to mention American shows.

    And please don’t tell me they can’t afford original ideas. Aren’t they financed by the Irish licence payer AND advertising revenue? No, it’s easier to filch ideas from elsewhere.

  • greagoir o frainclin

    “Aren’t they financed by the Irish licence payer AND advertising revenue? No, it’s easier to filch ideas from elsewhere.”

    Yes Fabianius, but you forget that the population of the Republic of Ireland is about 4 million people compared to 60 million+ people of the UK. So the licence fee revenue as well as advertising revenue is alot smaller here.

    But do check out our TV3, for it is pratically ITV as it shows well over 50% of British TV programmes of which you should be very happy about.

    Regarding original ideas, well I suppose we could do better,but RTE programmes have won internatioal awards over the years. As a small nation on the edge of Europe, we punch well above our weight when it comes to the arts, enetertainments and culture.

  • greagoir o frainclin

    FYI again Fabianus,

    http://www.rte.ie/about/awards/Overview.html

    http://www.rte.ie/about/pressreleases/2009/0705/irishdocsawards050709.html

    As you are a British citizen reading the daily TV schedule…..it’s comprehensible that you have just a general understanding of RTE programming.

    Again for a network it’s size it punches well above it’s weight on the domestic and international stage.

  • greagoir o frainclin

    BTW, as a foreigner you’d love the Savage Eye on RTE 2 Monday evenings, a comedy sketch show that wonderfully takes the piss out of ourselves.

  • Fabianus

    greagoir

    I know such things aren’t black and white (at least not since the 1960s) and no doubt there has been some originality on RTE television throughout the years.

    But I’m a cynical bastard and therefore a little mistrustful of anglophone “international” awards organisers who dish out prizes to so many broadcasters from anglophone nations. Reminds me of the Oscars and their token Best Foreign Language Film award.

  • There is the positive criticism ‘irrelevant’, but maybe I’m the only one who could be bothered to address it to the list of comments about T.V, R.o.I or D.V.D. or whatever on the scandalous child abuse topic. Unless you’re all being relevant and suggesting that T.V. is poor and ongoing abuse of anyone of any age, you’ve just missed the topicless internet chat sites, that’s all – it’s no big problem in itself, as long as you do know.