Garrison attack and policing

Pete has covered the latest terrorist attacks below. Thankfully they seem to have been completely unsuccessful. However, the attempt to murder a police officer who lived in Garrison was particularly sinister. At the start of the troubles the IRA often targeted police officers living in nationalist areas and Garrison is a very predominantly nationalist village. In addition the IRA were often reported to preferentially attempt to murder Catholic police officers in order to drive their co-religionists out of the RUC which they then denounced for not having enough Catholics. The threats to police officers in places like Fermanagh resulted in them living only in certain safer areas, largely around Enniskillen, Ballinamard, Lisbellaw, Kesh and the like.

The problems of policing in areas such as Fermanagh have been frequently documented with officers being unable to respond to crimes in certain areas for fear of attack: it is widely believed in Fermanagh that the PSNI will not venture south of Lisnaskea at night. In addition the lack of police on the ground and very limited number of police stations makes community as well as more anti terrorist related policing very limited.

Much of the blame for these problems has been laid at the door of the Patten proposals on policing. Patten’s proposals especially the Policing with the Community (pages 111-112) were predicated on a peaceful society as indeed the next section of the report Policing in a Peaceful Society (112-113) states. The problem is that in a peaceful society people very rarely set out with the intent to murder police officers as their sole criminal enterprise at that time. Policing is a dangerous job as we saw when PC Bill Barker died in the floods in England. In addition police officers are sometimes murdered by criminals trying to escape arrest. However, it is not a typical mark of a peaceful society for a gang of criminals to attempt to murder police officers on or off duty for the simple reason that they are police officers: even less so when these criminals have access to assault rifles, explosives and the like. As such the Patten proposals for policing in a peaceful society are extremely flawed.

That the proposals are, however, being persisted with is of course a political decision. Matt Baggott’s decision to scrap the police reserve (officers frequently used in and experienced at a security role) was described as “incomprehensible.” That is, however, untrue: his decision was entirely comprehensible in the context of a police chief constable who is a champion of community policing and is following a political agenda to “normalise” policing. Normalising policing is extremely laudable; however, as we are being shown in substantial parts of Fermanagh and South Armagh amongst other places, traditional community policing is going to be extremely difficult if not impossible and as such for Baggott to persist with his professed aims looks completely naïve. As the DUP note here the idea of the lumbering van which is Fermanagh’s mobile police station visiting Beleek or Belcoo to provide community policing would be almost laughable were it not so serious and the idea of it in Rosslea would be more akin to Apocalypse Now than reality.

Some may call for the reintroduction of the army. The counter is of course that that is exactly what the dissidents want. However, if groups of terrorists armed with assault rifles and rocket launchers take over village cross roads or indeed attack police officers in their homes it is unclear which organisation is supposed to deal with them if not the army. The police can do so though it is far from ideal especially if one also wants them to be community police officers. If the PSNI are to stop heavily armed terrorists they will need to be more numerous in the affected areas; will all need to have suitable weapons. For those people to be primarily community police officers then becomes very difficult: G3 assault rifles and Heckler and Koch sub-machine-guns are probably not particularly conducive to Patten or Baggott’s ideals of community policing.

As I mentioned above Baggott’s intensely political decision to scrap the PSNI reserve may come back to haunt him: whatever the demerits of keeping the reserve surely even republicans would rather have them than the British Army; yet if normalisation renders the PSNI incapable of performing as an effective anti terrorist force then the army will be the only alternative. As such Baggott’s decisions may in actual fact help bring about the reintroduction of soldiers on the streets.

The DUP seem to have gone quiet on Donaldson’s threat not to accept the devolution of policing and justice if the reserve is scrapped. That may well have been because the DUP do not want to interfere in operational policing decisions. However, if a police chief constable makes a decision which is quite clearly political and will inevitably result in a loss of community confidence (as Baggott’s decision will in Fermanagh as well as elsewhere) then it is behoovent upon politicians to state this and act accordingly. If Baggott wishes to place the community and his own officers in unnecessary peril in Fermanagh and elsewhere then the DUP should state that they will not accept the devolution of policing and justice and indeed that their confidence in the new chief constable is being sorely tested.

I am indebted to serving and former RUC and PSNI officers for technical advice regarding this blog.

  • Only Asking

    Total hyperbole.

    I am indebted to serving and former RUC and PSNI officers for technical advice regarding this blog

    They may need help with applying for job seekers.

  • George

    In addition the IRA were often reported to preferentially attempt to murder Catholic police officers in order to drive their co-religionists out of the RUC which they then denounced for not having enough Catholics.

    When did the IRA ever denounce the RUC for not having enough Catholics? I’d like some evidence of that rather unusual comment.

  • NCM

    Yes, great idea, send in the army to crush an insurrection by a small group of folks who shot at the police and missed and have repeatedly demonstrated they can’t put together bombs that actually explode.

    In a year they’ve killed 2 soldiers and one policeman. That level of violence is like a typical summer weekend in Detroit. Nothing to overreact to.

  • KieranJ

    Turgon is one of those bastards with an extreme hatred of Irish Catholics but is too cowardly to act openly upon that prejudice.

    A mean lttle creature.

    Fighting for the restoration of your country is not terrorism. It’s patriotism.

  • joeCanuck

    Re-introducing the army would be playing into the terrorists arms. There is nothing they would like more.
    Sorry, Turgon, the battle has to be conducted by the police. And they are not totally without gains.

  • USA

    We have lost approx 6 officers in the line of duty this year in Philadelphia. I think all but one were shot.

  • Blessed Trimble’s – Liquidate the taigs

    This guy Turgon is a total bigot, precisely the symbiotic dovetail of those who are now trying to bomb and shoot.

    They live off eachother, so much so indeed that you’d almost think they planned these activities together.

    We’ve been here before.

    I hope that this time the Turgons will be as demonised as their partners in opposition.

  • Indifferent Nationalist

    The media shouldn’t focus on this stuff, it’s fairly old hat.

    If you live in Northern Ireland you just have to accept that you’ll live with low level militant republicanism. Has always been the case and always will be as long as this state exists. That’s the price you pay for the historical injustice Unionists and London have inflicted upon Ireland.

    A pretty small price to pay at that. A shooting here, a rocket attack there. Really not much to get worked up about and falls within the range of an acceptable level of violence. Let’s just get on with things, as USA says there are much more dangerous places to be a cop.

  • the future’s bright, the future’s orange

    is there anyone sane out there? please?

  • Dec

    When did the IRA ever denounce the RUC for not having enough Catholics? I’d like some evidence of that rather unusual comment.

    George

    Don’t hold your breath. It’s just a variation on the age-old contention (put forward by those experts on the Nationalist community, the DUP and UUP) that us ‘Roman Catholics’ loved the RUC but were too terrified to publicly admit it.

  • Mayoman

    Can anyone enlighten me as to the percent of catholics in the NI police service before 1967 (I’ve tried to google this, but not coming up with much)? My undestanding is that the only time there was a significant number of catholics in the RUC was after partition and represented former RIC men. The drop in catholic number was mostly due to these men retiring. Additionally, a discrimination survey suggested one-third of catholic RUC members were victims of sectarian abuse from colleagues (mentioned on RUC wiki page). I ask becuase it appears that the IRA are being blamed for the sectarian nature of the RUC, which is more simply a situation wilfully propogated by unionists, with the threat of the IRA helping to do the unionists’ job for them. Given the historical sectarian nature of the RUC, can any unionists offer reasonable suggestions as to how they would reform their own creation better than Patten would?

  • Seymour Major

    There is one big thing that has changed since the so-called troubles. That is the fact that the overwhelming majority of catholics now support the police. That has to be worth a few thousand extra police officers. It also goes without saying that relations between the PSNI and the Garda have never been better either.

    There is a red line below which security must never be allowed to fall. As to where that line is to be drawn, it has to be high enough to meet the ordinary policing needs of the whole community. It is obvious that in places like Roslea and Garrison, things are going to be a bit more difficult.

    However, we have to be careful not to go overboard either. Getting the vast majority of Catholics to be supportive of the police is such an important weapon against terrorsim that it must be nurtured. The Police understand the value of that very well. The reality is that things are still so much better than they were those years ago.

    I would rather trust the Chief of Police to draw those red lines than Jeffrey Donaldson. If it happens that more resources are needed, the Chief of Police will ask for them. It is better to leave operational decisions and advice regarding resources in the hands of the professionals. The politicians have to provide those resources when asked for them but as long as they are committed to doing that, then they are doing their duty too.

  • iluvni

    After the signing of the Belfast Agreement, Bertie Ahern promised us that there would be a ruthless crackdown on anyone who continued to defy the will of the Irish people…whatever happened to that?

  • Comrade Stalin

    George, Dec,

    When did the IRA ever denounce the RUC for not having enough Catholics? I’d like some evidence of that rather unusual comment.

    Sinn Fein used to frequently “denounce” (well, point out) that the RUC at the time was “90% Protestant, 100% Unionist”. There were posters all over the place and placards waved during the marching season with this written all over it. So yes – republicans, maybe not the IRA themselves, did “denounce” the police for not having enough Catholics.

    I do not accept the thesis, though, that the only reason Catholics were not in the RUC was because of the IRA. It was reason but not the reason. Allegations of shoot to kill, and the blatant cover-ups of same, can’t have helped.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Turgon,

    re. “Much of the blame for these problems has been laid at the door of the Patten proposals on policing.”

    As I pointed out to you on the other thread on this issue, there is relatively successful peace/poitical deal in place and Patten is part of this. I accept that this deal is not easy for many Unionists who have been in the firing line during the ‘troubles’ and who see such deals as tantamount to supping with devil.

    But to illustrate the importance of Patten – ask yourself this question would Republican dissers prefer that the Police Reserve was retained or abolished. As a former sympathiser/apologist though not supporter/cheerleader) for Republican violence myself, I will on behalf of the entire Republican community assure they would rather it was retained.

    If you check this out with a few former IRA men (and perhaps a few policemen as well ) I suspect they will give you the same answer.

  • Whether we like to admit it or not……

    So long as Britain occupies part of Ireland, armed attacks against those who support that occupation will continue…

    The only way to seriously address this problem is to properly address the legacy of British imperialism in Ireland.

  • Rory Carr

    Strange that Turgon doesn`t start threads every time loyalist drug dealers are shotting,[sic] robbing and maiming someone!

    I’m afraid you are very wrong there, Truth Seeker. You can’t have been seeking very hard otherwise you might might have come across the many, many threads where Turgon does exactly that. Indeed his denounciations of loyalist violence and intimidation on this site are frequent and scathing.

    Some may see this as part of his subtlety (if indeed subtlety it be) so that to be seen so denouncing loyalist violence as well as republican violence he can be regarded as impartial in his denounciation of violence from all quarters.

    Then there are some (like yours truly) who feel that his failure to denounce state violence in the same vein negates any claim to impartiality. But that is an argument that we are required to make convincingly, merely bad-mouthing Turgon and imputing dishonorable intent simply will not do.

  • couldn’t comment shouldn’t

    Quick question had the PSNI shot one of these malcontents in Garrison would that have been evidence of a shoot to kill policy or inthis new dispensation of NAtionalist/Republican support for policing would this have been viewed as par for the course now?

  • Dec

    CS

    I remember those placards well. However the key message was that the RUC, given its ethos and make-up, was the armed wing of unionism and needed to go. If you can point to any Republican or Nationalist stating that the problem with the RUC was that it didn’t contain enough Catholics, I’d be most impressed.

  • daisy

    “So long as Britain occupies part of Ireland, armed attacks against those who support that occupation will continue…”

    What rot. How can a handful of die-hards choose who should live and die on the basis of their flawed analysis? Who appointed them to do that?

  • “Baggott’s intensely political decision”

    Turgon, why are you so convinced that Baggott made this ‘intensely political’ decision?

    Your focus is on the FTR but surely the current deficit of constables and the counting of students as full time officers is even more serious. In total, this accounts for about 10% of the ‘front-line’ officers. You can check the statistics here.

  • Intelligence Insider

    Turgon, just being pedantic but the MP5 is a submachine gun not an assault rifle and is manufactured by Heckler and Koch. The assault rifles issued to police are either G3’s or HK33’s.

  • Turgon

    Intelligence Insider,
    Yes you are correct and my notes from speaking to the police officers confirm that: the final draft was written late last night. Sorry I am not treally a gun-ologist but I will ammend.

    Joe,
    Thank you for your comment but in truth you misunderstand. I am not advocating bringing back the army per se. What I am suggesting is that if the police have inadequate numbers and capability to deal with this threat the only alternative will be the army. Currently it seems that the PSNI have problems dealing with the terrorist threat.

    There is also the simple issue that who exactly is meant to stop 8 people some armed with assualt rifles and one with a rocket launcher. If it is the police then as I said (and Intelligence Insider has corrected) the problem is that police officers if they are to carry out anti insurgency work it makes it more difficult for them to be community police officers. In addition I do think it is asking a lot of any police force to stop groups of heavily armed criminals: that is in many ways more a military problem.

  • Daisy, with respect my views are far from ‘rot’. I’m only expressing the facts of Irish republican history.

    No-one ‘was appointed to choose who should live or die’. Bottom line is, the British need to leave Ireland forever and leave Irish citizens to deal with the future…..

    800 years of occupation is a little too much, don’t U think?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    IWSMWSI: “As I pointed out to you on the other thread on this issue, there is relatively successful peace/poitical deal in place and Patten is part of this. I accept that this deal is not easy for many Unionists who have been in the firing line during the ‘troubles’ and who see such deals as tantamount to supping with devil.”

    Waiting on the devil, more like it, with the honor of picking up the bill afterward.

    Likewise, seeing as “they haven’t gone away, you know,” on what basis do you use the past tense? The bombs are still being set, the balaclava set are still setting up road-blocks and still are armed with their assault rifles and rocket-propelled grenade launchers — the most you could honestly claims is that the rate of incidents has slowed — an improvement of sorts, although the fact that these hoods still have their friendly neighborhoods to protect them suggests no real change has occurred.

    IWSMWDI: “But to illustrate the importance of Patten – ask yourself this question would Republican dissers prefer that the Police Reserve was retained or abolished. As a former sympathiser/apologist though not supporter/cheerleader) for Republican violence myself, I will on behalf of the entire Republican community assure they would rather it was retained.”

    “Oh, laws noes, Brer Fox, don’t throws me in that briar patch!”

    And you’re splitting that hair mighty thin…

    The truth, being more complicated that a blog post, would be more complex — there is the element of a win-win in this scenario for the dissers in this — the practical gift of fewer cops if dissolved vs a political whipping boy if retained.

    The difference, Sammy, is you’re still apologizing for them, whilst some of us gave up on shellacking turds and bombs.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Dread Cthulhu,

    re. “The difference, Sammy, is you’re still apologizing for them”

    What basis have you for saying that?

    But hey

    “Oh, laws noes, Brer Fox, don’t throws me in that briar patch!”

    Top line. But that does not mean it is correct. The dissers need the British/Unionists to renege on the deal (with police and its transfer to Stormo) they cut with Nationalists and the DUP may be about to give them a massive Christmas present – but having listened to Robbo at the weekend I think he is preparing to jump.

  • joeCanuck

    In addition I do think it is asking a lot of any police force to stop groups of heavily armed criminals:

    Turgon,
    I agree with that for regular officers. That’s why I supported the decision a few weeks back for officers who spotted armed men to simply observe.
    But don’t the PSNI have swat teams? If not, they should be training some for rapid reaction.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    IWSMWDI: “The dissers need the British/Unionists to renege on the deal (with police and its transfer to Stormo) they cut with Nationalists and the DUP may be about to give them a massive Christmas present – but having listened to Robbo at the weekend I think he is preparing to jump. ”

    There is the small matter that Nationalism has obviously over-promised and/or under-delivered on their end of the bargain — the bombs are still being set, the AK-47s and RPGs still being employed, etc. “They haven’t gone away, you know.”

    IWSMWSI: “What basis have you for saying that?”

    For starters? A contract or agreement is only binding if both sides deliver. Nationalism / Republicanism has shorted the till, at least where the violence is concerned. And, yet, here you are trying to paper over this short-fall, saying that Unionism should fulfill are their obligations, regardless of the facts on the ground, with no thought as to what Republicans have or have not delivered. Never mind the bombs, the assault rifles, the road-blocks, the dead cops, etc.

  • Intelligence Insider

    Joe,
    The PSNI have their Headquarters Mobile Support Unit which is under the command of the Specialist Operations Branch for such instances.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Dread Cthulhu,

    re. “Republicans have or have not delivered”

    The dissers were not included in the deal – in fact most non-Unionist opinion in Britain and Ireland suggests that the way to help defeat them is to actually cement the politcal/peace deal – something Unionists like you are against.

    I asked you what basis you had for the assertion below – I’m still waiting to hear where I have been “apologizing” for them.

    “The difference, Sammy, is you’re still apologizing for them”

  • Dread Cthulhu

    IWSMWDI: “The dissers were not included in the deal – in fact most non-Unionist opinion in Britain and Ireland suggests that the way to help defeat them is to actually cement the politcal/peace deal – something Unionists like you are against.”

    It is humorous that I am the Republican to some and a Unionist to others. It is amusing that when someone stops arguing about the Plantation and apologizing for bombers and thugs, he becomes “a Unionist.”

    And, frankly, cementing the deal will be about as effective as spitting into the wind in dealing with the dissers. Maintaining a violent anti-governmental campaign requires an astonishingly small amount of popular support. All it *really* needs is money and guns and about 4-6% of the population to back it. Just enough water for the fish to swim.

    But that’s reality and, seemingly, beside the point. Republicanism has been rather close-mouthed about the dissers — sure, they mouth all the right words when a bomb goes off or a cop gets shot, but, shockingly, no one turns grass on the “dissidents.” I know old habits die hard, but once SF/PIRA climbed into government, their role and responsibilities changed… a pity they don’t realize such.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    As for being an apologist, you’re still carrying water and asking people not to believe their own eyes… mayhap “apologist” isn’t the best word to use, but “water-carrier” doesn’t have nearly the same impact.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Dread Cthulhu,

    “As for being an apologist, you’re still carrying water and asking people not to believe their own eyes… mayhap “apologist” isn’t the best word to use, but “water-carrier” doesn’t have nearly the same impact.”

    Thats as poor a retraction as I’ve seen for some time so on what basis do you use the term “water-carrier”?

    And whats this jibber-jabber about “you’re still carrying water and asking people not to believe their own eyes”?

    Re. Assuming you are a Unionist – whether you are or not is fairly irrelevant I was applying the old Duck logic e.g. walks like one etc. If you are not then it is always refreshing to hear unexpected views form which ever camp they arise.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Let us start with your premise that the action on the ground should be disregarded and that Patten should march forward despite the reality on the ground. You push the message, claim that legitimate concerns re: Republican violence should have a null value in this argument, that somehow dissident Republican violence isn’t really Republican violence, etc. You ignore that the dissidents aren’t going to be mollified by political progress, since that isn’t part of their agenda. You are, frankly, part of the problem, not part of the solution. You want reality to be supplanted by political aspirations. You’re carrying the Republican water and, as a consequence, creating a win-win for the dissers.

    You claim that the dissidents shouldn’t count on the Republican tally of sins, much like some on this board argued it was an illegitimate argument to conflate SF with PIRA, which is risible. Face up — this isn’t going to be a winning argument where it counts — no matter how many political bobbleheads bleat this line, the ones with real power (the power to destroy something is the power to control it) aren’t going to buy it.

    Clinging to an arbitrary schedule and chanting “Patten is good” isn’t going to undermine the dissidents. They like as not have enough popular support to sustain their operations. The Republicans who don’t support the dissers aren’t going to develop either the consciences or spines to turn grass on them. That leaves having enough police to keep them in check by cutting them off from the arms and money they need to maintain the struggle. Dissolving the Reserve, sadly, does nothing to achieve that end.

  • joeCanuck

    Dissolving the Reserve, sadly, does nothing to achieve that end.

    The CC says he doesn’t need them and says he has enough Officers to meet the threat.
    If that should change, and it might, I’m sure he’ll ask for more and should get them.

  • igor

    “Fighting for the restoration of your country is not terrorism. It’s patriotism.”

    mmmmm Kieran…..so does that mean that if Loyalists fear that Catholics are getting the upper hand they are right to start to murder Catholics?

    Are you a ‘true Republican’ or just a green tinged Irish American murder groupie?

    And whose country is it? Will you give American back to those pesky Redskins? Or is that not on the agenda because unlike the Brits your ancestors genocide almost wiped them out?

  • igor

    “800 years of occupation is a little too much, don’t U think”

    Not at all. My family have been here for hundreds of years and we are quite happy thank you.

    So why do you then think you have superior rights to the place?

  • Sean

    Igor
    mmmmm Kieran…..so does that mean that if Loyalists fear that Catholics are getting the upper hand they are right to start to murder Catholics?

    When did they stop?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    joeCanuck: “The CC says he doesn’t need them and says he has enough Officers to meet the threat.”

    That remains to be seen. The PSNI has long been politicized and undermined by both sides. And it isn’t as if their track-record for veracity has been sterling… They say there was no collusion between RUC/PSNI and the Loyalists, too — you believe that one?

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    re. “You ignore that the dissidents aren’t going to be mollified by political progress, since that isn’t part of their agenda. You are, frankly, part of the problem, not part of the solution.”

    Ok so there is me and the SOS, and the Irish Justice Minister and Hugh Orde all “water carriers” who see political progress as the way to defeat the dissers and we are all “part of the problem”.

    …and dont tell me there is yourself and the right wing of the DUP and the TUV as “part of the solution”.

    All very plausible I’m sure.

  • i wonder

    This will run and run and run (ITS BEEN RUNNING FOR 800 YEARS NON STOP)until someday in years to come someone in Brussels says fuk this remove that line on that map make them all pay the same whatever and tell them all to shut the fuk up or else.Turgon I see the glint of treasure in your eye.Bigotry has always paid well in the protestant FAMILY lolol if your connected.Same sort of connection as the two twats that got of with a caution in the holyland.But god help poor wee unconnected billy or paddy there will always be the Turgons on either side that know whats best for them.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    IWSMWDI: “Ok so there is me and the SOS, and the Irish Justice Minister and Hugh Orde all “water carriers” who see political progress as the way to defeat the dissers and we are all “part of the problem”.”

    You need carrots and sticks, Sammy. It makes no sense to break the sticks when the dissers aren’t interested in carrots.

    So long as the dissers have their neighborhoods and enclave, they can maintain the struggle, especially since “mainstream” republicanism is willing to play Wizard of Oz, what with their “pay no attention to the man behind the curtain” shtick.

    The fact that the politicians rally around political agreements without serious thought for realities on the ground shouldn’t surprise anyone. For starters, acknowledging that there are flaws in the political process is a non-starter for most of the politicians you’ve named. They’ll ride this pony right off the cliff before they’ll point out the flaws and prat-falls of the process. To the political set, preserving their own face is more important than reality. Saying that politicians believe in political solutions is a wee bit like saying surgeons believe that surgery is the best medical answer.

    As I’ve said before, barring some game changer in the next election, there is going to be grid-lock. DUP is being pulled to one pole by the UUP and the TUV, whilst the dissidents make too much cooperation uncomfortable for SF. That leaves political process an almost non-starter — a politicians first job is to get elected, his second to get re-elected. Doing their jobs is a distant third.

    Frankly, I hope you are right, but, honestly, I don’t think you are. From where I’m sitting, both sides are demanding more than they’re willing to give the other and it isn’t going to take too much imbalance for things to go off the rails and telling me not to dwell on the dead-enders setting bombs isn’t much in the way of comfort or hope. Political progress will not mollify the dissidents, it will put them to the wall and make them more desperate, not more complacent and papering over their deeds isn’t going to make them go away. CT operations are a losing proposition — the only way the defender wins is to always be perfect.

  • Guest

    Dread,

    What are Sinn féin demanding that has not been agreed?

  • Comrade Stalin

    The BBC is now reporting that the army Special Reconnaissance Regiment assisted with this particular operation. Quite frankly, between this unit and the full-time reserve, it should be obvious who is best qualified for this kind of work.

  • joeCanuck

    you believe that one?

    No, Dread; I do not.

  • concerned

    comrade stalin do you remenber 14 int

  • Comrade Stalin

    concerned,

    yes.

  • concerned

    since you remember ,you will obviously be aware of there past activities. step forward or step backwards ill let you decide .promotion of a one set agenda no 50/50 recruitment in there ranks.I think , never mind ABOUT the accountabililty part of there activities. But i suppose EVERY STATE HAS TO HAVE THEM.

  • joeCanuck

    Concerned,
    I don’t know what the accountabilty process is but I sure hope there is one. We do not need the SAS or SRR making their own decisions. Hopefully they only act in a assist role and take strategic direction from the PSNI who are accountable to the Policing Board..

  • Dread Cthulhu

    joeCanuck: “No, Dread; I do not. ”

    Ok… then in light of the PSNI’s need to draw the military into what some would tell us is “policing matter,” why I should believe they have “adequate resources” to deal with the dissidents?

  • joeCanuck

    I don’t know, Dread. Because the CC says so? Special forces have been used by the English police too. How could anyone old enough forget the storming of the Iranian (?) embassy by the SAS 25 years or so ago?

  • Igor, sadly you’ve taken me out of context….I was talking about the British Monarchy and Government occupying Ireland for over 800 years, denying Irish citizens the right to National self-determination….

    I accept there are thousands of families like yours who have been here for hundreds of years and that should continue….

    What is needed drastically, is for the British Monarchy and it’s government to leave Ireland and for the Irish people themselves to govern themselves on an All-Ireland basis without repression or oppression!

    Only then will armed attacks against the British State end once and for all.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    joeCanuck: “I don’t know, Dread. Because the CC says so?”

    Do you believe everything politicians and the like tell you, joeCanuck?

    joeCanuck: “Special forces have been used by the English police too. How could anyone old enough forget the storming of the Iranian (?) embassy by the SAS 25 years or so ago? ”

    Just because the British police lack adequate resources to deal with terrorism and have made use of the SAS / Special Forces does mean that a similar lack of ability and resources on the part of PSNI suddenly makes either of them “adequate.”

  • joeCanuck

    Dread,
    They are “adequate” if they have access to all state forces necessary to do the job.
    This isn’t unique to either N.I. or the rest of the UK. Most (every?) state has “special forces” who are called upon when needed.
    Remember the State National Guard and the US Army ensuring the rights of blacks in Alabama to attend University?

  • joeCanuck

    Do you believe everything politicians and the like tell you, joeCanuck?

    Absolutely not, Dread, especially politicians and the “rag” newspapers.
    But sometimes they do (accidentally?) tell the truth. Each of us must decide for him or herself whom we want to believe.
    The current CC came over here from a good job and presumably didn’t come to fail. If he said since he took the job “I have reviewed the numbers available to me and they are insufficient”, I’m sure he would have got a good hearing/review.

  • Comrade Stalin

    concerned,

    Get back to me when you’ve got a coherent point to make.

    Ardoyne Republican, I’d much rather you left Ireland, and that way we could be free of your oppression.

  • Comrade, UR comment is a little bit hyprocritical considering ur pen name (Stalin) and the fact that U don’t even live in Ireland lol.

  • I find it quite funny to find republicans hypothesizing about their victors. It’s a pity they can’t just admit that they were well and truly beaten, defeated and embarrassed. They surrendered in a war they were losing, admitted that only the people of Northern Ireland would determine their own future, agreed the principle of consent applying to Northern Ireland solely, and now participate in government in this part of the United Kingdom. Thank God for the Intelligence and Security Services for bringing them this far!I’m so, so glad they know who is in charge!

  • Dread Cthulhu

    joeCanuck: “They are “adequate” if they have access to all state forces necessary to do the job.
    This isn’t unique to either N.I. or the rest of the UK. Most (every?) state has “special forces” who are called upon when needed.
    Remember the State National Guard and the US Army ensuring the rights of blacks in Alabama to attend University? ”

    Which was, in the case of the active US army, technically illegal and has little enough to do with the matter at hand — the fact that the PSNI lacks a capability every major (and most lesser) US city police forces have — a SWAT team, or, at least, one they have any faith in.

    The National Guard isn’t technically a Federal formation on a day-to-day basis, but only under Federal control when activated by the President. It would be argued that the Federal activation was as much a tactic to prevent the state from employing them in a less useful fashion,

    To point out the obvious, the deployment of the British military, especially their specialist formations, is a red-meat gimme for the dissidents — “the army of occupation” yadda-yadda-yadda.

    In short, calling in outside specialists isn’t a sign of “adequate” ability, let alone competency. It isn’t as if they don’t understand the game at this late date, is it?

    joeCanuck: “But sometimes they do (accidentally?) tell the truth. Each of us must decide for him or herself whom we want to believe.
    The current CC came over here from a good job and presumably didn’t come to fail.”

    He also didn’t come here to rock the apple-cart, if I may mix my metaphors. Declarations of adequacy, followed by calling in someone else to do your job, sends something of a mixed message, neh?

  • John Laurie

    Well, at least we can agree on one thing, Dread.
    I have argued elsewhere on SOT that the PSNI needs to train some rapid reaction SWAT Teams.
    If they had a centrally located assembly base they could get to anywhere in N.I. by helicopter in about half an hour after assembling.

  • joeCanuck

    # 11 was me, not that jokester fellow.