“Kennedy accused the church of fanning ‘flames of dissent and discord’ on Capitol Hill”

An Irish Times report identifies one potential rock upon which US President Obama’s Public Government Health Insurance Bill might founder.

It was a Democratic congressman, Bart Stupak from Michigan, who put forward an amendment demanding not only that the government insurance option in the healthcare Bill be banned from covering abortion, but that private insurance companies participating in an insurance market or exchange to be established under the Bill also be forbidden from paying for abortions.

The Bill would give subsidies to companies in the exchange and tax credits to any family of four with an income of less than $88,000 a year purchasing insurance. Companies participating in the exchange would have to drop abortion coverage and women receiving tax credits would not be eligible for abortion coverage, unless purchased privately outside the exchange, dramatically reducing the availability of the procedure to poor women.

As the report adds

Now pro-choice and anti- abortion Democrats threaten to hold healthcare reform hostage to the abortion question.

Congresswoman Diana DeGette this week presented Pelosi with a letter signed by 40 House Democrats saying they would vote against the final Bill if it contained the restrictions of the Stupak amendment.

For his part, Stupak threatened “there will be hell to pay” if his fellow Democrats “double cross” him and that he too could muster 40 No votes.

And

The American Conference of Bishops has long campaigned for universal healthcare in the US, but they were also the driving force behind the Stupak amendment, instructing priests to mobilise parishioners and openly lobbying for the House vote.

Critics say the presence of four envoys from the bishops’ conference on the Hill on November 7th was a violation of the separation of church and state and have suggested the church should lose its tax-exempt status.

The dispute became personal in Rhode Island, where representative Patrick Kennedy, son of the late senator Ted Kennedy, clashed with Thomas Tobin, Bishop of Providence.

Kennedy accused the church of fanning “flames of dissent and discord” on Capitol Hill and asked “how the Catholic church could be against the biggest social justice issue of our time”.

Bishop Tobin called Kennedy “a disappointment to the church” and suggested he should be denied Communion.

“If you freely choose to be a Catholic, it means you believe certain things,” the Bishop said on a Providence radio station.

“If you cannot do all that in conscience, then you should perhaps feel free to go somewhere else.”

Although, to take a slight tangent, not apparently if you’re an Irish Catholic bishop.

As another Irish Times report notes

In his wide-ranging address, the bishop said he “lacks any enthusiasm for the Latin Mass” and was “saddened” that he could not feel free to take part in Communion at Church of Ireland services because of the rules in his own church. This was despite the fact that “in Ennis it was never suggested that Church of Ireland people are not welcome to receive in our church.”

He said he always had difficulties when told by the church that certain subjects were not for discussion. He was unhappy generally about exclusion by the church, citing the issues of second unions and homosexuality as examples.

, , , ,

  • IRIA

    Kennedy accused the church of fanning “flames of dissent and discord” on Capitol Hill and asked “how the Catholic church could be against the biggest social justice issue of our time”.

    Kennedy is exactly right. It’ll never happen, but threats of the Catholic Church losing their tax exempt status should be used. They’ve been actively engaged in lobbying.

  • Danny O’Connor

    Killing babies in the womb being described as social justice,that is a disgrace coming from someone who calls himself a Catholic.
    This issue goes way beyond abortion – the so called end of life panels that will decide which -if any -treatment that will be offered.There are many other concerns including how and if immigrants or other non Americans will access healthcare ,there are issues around conscience -where a person may be forced to do things against their beliefs eg participate in certain end of life issues or abortions.

  • OC

    Did RoI’s “Mother and Child Scheme” debacle cause the Church to lose its tax exempt status?

  • joeCanuck

    Danny,
    You are fanning flames too with your intemperate language.
    Should women who “kill” their unborn babies be charged with murder in your weird world?

  • Padraig

    If the Catholic Church honestly opposes abortion, as do as recent polls suggest a growing majority of Americans, what would be surprising in the fact that that should wish to lend political support to their beliefs as indeed can anyone in a Democracy?

    It is important to emphasise that the Catholic Church supports Public Health Care Reform and has always played a huge role in Social Care activites not only in the USA but Ireland.

    Its pro abortion extremists who threaten to sink Public Health Reform by tying in abortion to such schemes who are the real threat to reform.

  • igor

    Danny

    As its so bad, why has your invisible friend not stopped it?

    And the defence of hundreds of thousands of unborn children might have more weight if it came from an organisation whose representatives hadn’t spent years physically and sexually abusing children and whose leadership hadn’t spent decades permitting it and then covering it up

    Amazing too that morality can be so clearly defined on some issues but so flexible on others

  • Padraig

    It always amazes me how casually anti Catholic bigotry can raise its head amongst people who themselves most loudly proclaim their own tolerance and Liberal viewpoints in other arenas such as Abortion and Homosexual ‘Rights’.

    This discussion had nothing at all to do with paedophilia yet in a very casual manner the Catholic clergy are branded whole sale as Child Molesters with no moral authority. A sweeping statement of such breath taking bigotry as to leave even an Editor of the ‘Protestant Telegraph’ or the ‘Loyalist News’ breathless. But apparently there is tolerance of everyone and everything apart from the Catholic Church who are to be considered fair game.

    Statistically by far the greatest amount of Paedophilic activity occurs within the family. Are then all fathers to be labled as immoral scoundrels with no right to a moral viewpoint. There was a recent report in New York which cited some 30.000 cases of peadophilia amongst its community and widespread instances of such abuse amongst Protestant communities, such as the Amish, are ongoing . This coupled with the fact that there has been massive abuse in Government Institutions, including Children’s Homes and schools. This being so perhaps Jews, Protestants, Social Workers, and Governments should have no moral authority either?

    Along side this it is fair to mention that the overwhelming majority of such abuse cases di not involve paedolphilc activity but puberbic sex and sex involving sex between consenting adult makes, something the gay rights lobby have been clamouring for.

    What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If homophobic bigotry is unacceptable and a hate crime, so to o should anti Catholic rants bye considered hateful.

  • Dave

    The right to life isn’t a religious issue, even though the Catholic Church has played a very honourable role in seeking to protect human life here. It is a human rights issue. Article 3 of the UN’s UDHR declares that every human being has an inherent right to life and pro-life campaigners should be more proactive in demanding that the unborn human beings are not excluded from protection. The abortion-on-demand brigade seek to misrepresent the right to life as a religious issue so that they can dismiss this most fundamental of rights as being based on nothing more consequential than superstition, thereby devaluing human life as being less important than the right to retroactive contraception. These are the same folks that now kill 115,000 unborn human beings every single day of the year.

  • igor

    Padraig

    I am more anti-religion than anti-catholic. I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy inherent in the Church’s positions on the two issues.

    For the record, most priests I have ever met were caring, decent, honest men totally committed to their flocks. However there were some who werent and were able to thrive in an organisation where Bishops covered up and on occasions simply moved them to other areas to begin the abuse on new victims. There is also evidence that the physical abuse of children was institutionised in some orders and some establishments.

    The Catholic laity are just as appalled by all this as anyone else. Its the institution that was the problem. Yet this is the organisation that places so much stress (it says) on the sanctity of human life?

    So is it anti-catholic bigotry to point that out?

    Oh and by the way, I personally think that abortion is morally wrong when there are so many children who could find wonderful adoptive homes with caring parents desperate for a baby. However, while I think we should encourage that I don’t think we have the right to force women to carry unwanted children to term and there may be many other cases (forced marriage, rape etc) where its essential for the mother’s mental and physical health that abortion is available.

    Real life is more complex and messy than slogans allow

  • Comrade Stalin

    Danny,

    This issue goes way beyond abortion – the so called end of life panels that will decide which -if any -treatment that will be offered.

    Danny, repeating fabricated Republican propaganda does absolutely nothing for your credibility.

    Are you opposed to the NHS, Danny ? Because it has similar “panels”.

  • Greenflag

    ‘threats of the Catholic Church losing their tax exempt status should be used. They’ve been actively engaged in lobbying.’

    Given the number of financial crimes being committed by actual Churches and other so called ‘Godly’ institutions , the USA should in these difficult times remove tax exempt status from ALL Churches and all ‘institutions’s’ who are seen to be sellers of commercial religious products and services.

    The churches are ‘businesses’ ranging from the rabbis selling ‘fresh ‘ human kidney’s and livers in New Jersey at one end to paedophile clergy, fundamentalist fraudsters , and demented Ayatollahs at the other . And that’s not even mentioning the Scientologists and the wacko cults that prey on the innocent , gullible and the weak willed !

    If people want to buy products or services from these organisations then these organizations should be treated the same as all other businesses are treated and taxed on their sales and profits . Might even help to provide employment opportunities for the hundreds of thousands of newly unemployed financial executives ?

    Did the founder leader of Christianity make the statement ?’

    ‘Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars and unto God that which is God’s ‘

    It seems that ‘religion’ in the USA has embedded itself into the Government at least in respect of ‘finances’ .

    But then the present day leaders of Christianity are no better than the old Pharisees in the temple hagglin over market share , offerings and who’s got the biggest temple and who is and is not the most loyal to the Roman Imperium .

    Neither the Pope or his Cardinals have a clue about the ‘real’ lives of women . How could they ?
    If modern women did not practice contraception there would be standing room only on the European continent and the Pope would have to elbow his way a crowd through to the eh papal throne room to relieve his bladder.

  • Comrade Stalin

    And no, it’s not even faintly anti-Catholic bigotry to point out the truth that the Church effectively allowed itself to operate as a global paedophile ring. It would be a different matter if these issues were not known to the hierarchy, but not only were they known about, they were actively covered up.

    It should be more clear than ever that a large section of the SDLP is, in fact, a right-wing Catholic theological movement.

  • Padraig

    Bigotry starts with citing a particular ‘fact’ or series of facts :

    Therefore I could say as a ‘fact’ that many Negro fathers abandon their children.{which is statistically correct}

    That many Jews are wealthier than the surrounding population {which is statistically correct}

    Or that homosexuals have higher rates of sexually transmitted diseases than the surrounding population {which is also a fact}

    The clear implication of such ‘facts’ when quoted is that one has the clear pejorative. bigoted and prejudiced implication, negros are immature, Jew’s are out for themselves and homosexuals are immoral.

    It is wrong to draw from the particular to the general in this way, thus some groups Jews, homosexuals, Catholic Priests etc behave in such and such a way therefore ALL homosexuals, negros and Catholic Priests behave in such a way.

    This is by definition bigotry and bigotry founded on entrenched prejudice.

    I should not have to explain this, but I understand that a bigot , for a whole complex range of pscyhological and social factors is the very,very last to admit or realise he/she is bigoted.

    Currently for talking head liberals anti Catholicism is as acceptable as antisemiticism once was to the Nazis.

    Despite the fact that such bigotry and hate may be considered as somehow tolerable in whichever particular mileau you move, please understand that to countless millions of ordinary decent Catholics such as myself it is very,very offensive.

    Now if a homosexual in similar circumstances were to tell you he found this kind of bigotry offensive you would at once apologise and mend you ways.

    Now if a negro in similar circumstances were to tell you this was offensive, you would at once apologise and mend you ways.

    Now if a Jew in similar circumstances were to tell you this you would at once apologise and mend you ways.

    Why not for Catholics? If you prick us do we not bleed?

    Save the tar brush for someone who doesn’t mind it…RTE or the Guardian perhaps.

  • Padraig

    [b]For the record, most priests I have ever met were caring, decent, honest men totally committed to their flocks.[/b]

    ‘Some of my best friends are Jews, blacks, Gays, Protestants, Catholic Priests, etc, etc, etc…@

    Why does all this seem so glaringly familiar?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Why not for Catholics? If you prick us do we not bleed?

    Padraig, do you mean to say that if the Catholic Church conspires in the abuse of children, nobody should be allowed to talk about it ?

    BTW most of the “facts” you posted up there aren’t true. Try finding a source for any of them. What about a source for that claim about homosexuals with STDs. I bet if you were to ask the staff up at the GUM clinic in the Royal, you’d find that most people coming through there are straight.

  • igor

    Padraig

    Oh dear oh dear. What dreadful mopery.

    You set up a ‘logical’ argument that means that any criticism founded on facts is by definition ‘bigotry’. Ye you ignore the bigotry inherent in many Catholic theological positions.

    Still, Monty Python dealt with this many years ago and so much more articulately than I can:

    terribly bigoted, as (for balance) is this

  • Greenflag

    ‘please understand that to countless millions of ordinary decent Catholics such as myself it is very,very offensive.’

    The same could be said for Jews ,Protestants , Evangelical Fundamentalists , Moslems , Hindusm, Scientologists etc .

    ‘Now if a homosexual in similar circumstances were to tell you he found this kind of bigotry offensive you would at once apologise and mend you ways.

    I don’t care what religion homosexuals practice as long as they keep it to themselves . Their sexual practices are their own business and as long as it’s with consenting adults it’s nobody else’s business .

    ‘Now if a negro in similar circumstances were to tell you this was offensive, you would at once apologise and mend you ways.’

    That would be after you picked yourself up off the street with a richly deserved bloody nose .

    ‘Now if a Jew in similar circumstances were to tell you this you would at once apologise and mend you ways.’

    Whether you apologised or not you would find yourself in court being prosecuted by said Jew’s first cousin. The charges would include everything under the sun including the fact that your great great great (40 greats) grandfather was a participant on the pogrom of 1294 when Richard the Lionheart ran out of cash to pay his ‘bankers

    ‘If you prick us do we not bleed? ‘

    Don’t mistake a pimple for the pox . The Catholic Church did’nt care about the ‘pricks ‘ of it’s clergy abusing children for centuries !
    The only reason it criticises such practices NOW is because it was found out – plain and simple-

    If you wish to believe otherwise that’s your prerogative . But don’t expect anybody else to !

  • Padraig

    Well, well one bigoted rant after another.

    There is little sense of trying to have a logical discussion with a bigot he will only continue on with another rant.

    However one semi logical point I would try to answer.

    [b]I bet if you were to ask the staff up at the GUM clinic in the Royal, you’d find that most people coming through there are straight. [/b]

    Of they would say that most infected people are straights. They would also say proportionally the Gay community have higher rates.

    I repeat [b] proportionally[/b] and [b]rates[/b]; hopefully you can understand this.

    A study published in the American Journal of Epidemiology compared 12,201 heterosexual men with 5,324 homosexual men. Both groups were interviewed during their initial visits to the Denver Metro Health Clinic during 1977/1978. The homosexual men were significantly more likely to have gonorrhea (30.31% vs. 19.83%) and early syphilis (1.08% vs. 0.34%). The authors speculated that “higher rates of gonorrhea and syphilis result from a larger mean number of sexual contacts, more potential sites of infection, and more hidden and asymptomatic disease” among homosexuals. When asked the number of different sexual partners within the previous 30 days, the homosexual men reported a mean of 5.5, the heterosexual men a mean of 2.3.(Judson 1980)

    J.L. Fluker studied the male cases of homosexually acquired STDs at Charring Cross Hospital (West London Branch) between 1962 and 1971 and noted “an explosive increase in case load, particularly between 1968-1971.”(Fluker 1976) According to clinic records, in 1962 there were 105 cases of STDs among homosexual men; by 1971 the number had climbed to 1,773 cases. Fluker reported that male homosexuals had a high repeat infection rate, “some patients having had 40-59 new infections over the years in the same clinic.”(Fluker 1981) It should be noted that legislation legalizing homosexual practices between consenting adults took effect in England in 1968.

    Syphilis and gonorrhea are not the only diseases affecting homosexual males. In the 1970s, doctors began grouping the large number of conditions affecting the lower intestinal tract of homosexual men under the classification “gay bowel syndrome.” These included viral infections, infectious diarrheal diseases caused by bacteria and parasites, and injuries caused by anal sexual activity. Before physicians could treat the patients with gay bowel syndrome, they had to determine which infection their patient had contracted. The possibilities included: bacteria, such as Shigella sonnei, Shigella flexneri, Campylobacter enteritis, Campylobacter jejuni, or Salmonella enteritis; intestinal parasites such as Giardia lamblia, Entamoeba histolytica, and Entamoeba coli; herpes simplex and Chlamydia trachomatis. Most of these infections could be traced to exposure to fecal material either through oral/anal sexual acts, or through oral/genital sexual acts occurring after anal/genital sexual acts. At one point, health officials, uneducated as to homosexual practices, were so concerned about an unexpected outbreak of dysentery in the Greenwich Village section of New York City that they ordered an inspection of the water supply, fearing contamination with raw sewage.

    A 1983 study of homosexual men attending a San Francisco Bay Area health fair found “strikingly higher prevalence rates of intestinal parasitic infections” among homosexual men when compared with rates in a control group of health plan members who had a routine multiphasic health examination. Of 105 homosexual men, 59.1% had intestinal protozoa, in contrast to 14.2% of the men in the control group.(Markell 1983) The number of homosexual men in the control group, if any, was not ascertained. According to Shilts:

  • Bugger Them

    The bishope is correct to tell the Swimmer’s son what to do. If young Kennedy is anything like his da, the Swimmer, he has no moral authority. Catholics are against abortion so if you don’t like it, f off. Simple. Espcially if you are a Kennedy, feeding off the family business.
    Obama put a pro abortion hack in as US Ambassador to the Vatican. Hardly a bridge builder by the Kenyan.
    As regards buggering little boys, that is a widescale hobby of all who deal with little boys. IUn that conncection, middle class Ireland had its own horny swimmers.

  • Padraig

    By the way to the Orange Bigots posting here {and there seem to be quite a few];

    Does the word [b]’Kincora'[/b] ring any Orange chimes?

  • Danny O’Connor

    comrade stalin
    it is about a private company providing the funding – is the argument about clinical benefit or economic benefit.where is the safety net?

  • Danny O’Connor

    Igor, reducing the amount of abortions is obama’s objective -so he says -When Reagan stopped public funding the number of abortions fell by 30%,saving half a million lives a year.Why would he want to re introduce it?
    As for my invisible friend ,He will be your’s too – just ask Him.
    You will meet Him someday& you can ask him yourself

  • Comrade Stalin

    Padraig, rather than copying and pasting from hate sites, have you got any studies done in the past 10-15 years, accounting for the fact that people are better informed about STDs and how they’re spread ?

    It’s ironic that you’re banging on about this given that the Catholic priesthood is full of gay men. There are probably more gay men in the priesthood than there are among the male population on average. Bishop Pat Buckley has attested to that.

    It is strange how some people are so obsessed with homosexuality and sexual practices. I find people who talk about other people’s sex lives all the time usually have something lacking within their own lives.

    Does the word ‘Kincora’ ring any Orange chimes?

    The chime it rings with me is the one where the people behind it were prosecuted, which is entirely appropriate and is exactly what should happen to the priests who did this, and those who covered them up.

    bugger them :

    Hardly a bridge builder by the Kenyan.

    Obama was born in Hawaii and so is an American. It doesn’t help your case if you’re openly racist.

  • Comrade Stalin

    comrade stalin
    it is about a private company providing the funding – is the argument about clinical benefit or economic benefit.where is the safety net?

    Danny, what part of that question does not apply with the existing system in the USA (where insurance company “death panels” deny life-saving treatment on a regular basis) or with the NHS ? This argument is a straw man.

    Igor, reducing the amount of abortions is obama’s objective -so he says -When Reagan stopped public funding the number of abortions fell by 30%,saving half a million lives a year.Why would he want to re introduce it?

    Danny, here’s the statistics for abortions since the 1970s (from a pro-life website) :

    here

    Where’s this 30% drop you speak of ? I see 54000 more abortions in 1990 (the historic peak, two years after Reagan left office) than there were in 1980 when he entered office. The CDC numbers show an increase of about 200,000.

    According to this article, it was Clinton who reinstated public funding for abortions. Between then and 2001, when Bush came to power, the rate of abortions fell dramatically.

    Not only do the numbers not fall the way you are suggesting, I see no evidence for a correlation between public funding and the number of abortions sought. I’d be happy to stand corrected.

  • Padraig

    Comrade Stalin,

    Are you asking me to post scientific medical statistics from within the last 15 years showing higher rates of STD’s in homosexuals?

    I will if you want.

  • Padraig

    Take this for instance from Reuters, not as far as I know a ‘hate site:

    [b]WASHINGTON (Reuters) – U.S. syphilis rates rose for a seventh year in 2007, driven by gay and bisexual men, [/b]

    http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE50C5XV20090113?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=22&sp=true

  • Stalin the Mass Murderer

    Comrade Stalin

    Obama is a sweet talker. He is good looking if you are into black men. He is pushing his anti democratic big government plan.

    To call him a Kenyan is as fair as calling Ted Kennedy the Swimmer. This “man” left a young woman to drown. The Kennedys were blood suckers. So is Obama. Let’s see if he can do anything else besides help little girls and boys get rooted.

  • Padraig

    In 2007 and seven a report from the Center for Disease Control and Prevention showed that, men who have sex with men (MSM) continued to account for the majority of primary and secondary (P&S) syphilis cases, representing 65 percent of the 11,466 P&S syphilis cases reported. Increased transmission among MSM is believed to be the primary driver of increased rates of syphilis overall in the United States.

    cf:

    http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats07/syphilis.htm

  • Padraig

    Sorry Comrade Stalin,

    I thought for a second you might like to read the facts.

    But of course the very , very last thing you’ll want to read is facts that don’t suit whatever liberal myth you’ve cooled up in your brain about homosexual sex being ‘normal’ when the human body is in fact designed for anal penetration.

    I hope these figures don’t drive you off in another rant of deitracted denial.

  • PN

    Padraig

    The quibbling over statistics distracts from the fundamental logical flaw in your argument.

    Gay people, Jewish people and Black people are all varied and disporate groups of individuals. The Catholic Church is a single organisation. Talking about the institutional flaws of that organisation is not the same as broadly stereotyping a group of people who are united only by an aspect irrelevant to the discussion.

    It has been made clear that the criticism is of the attitude of the Catholic Church and that individual Catholics are not the target, so the charge of bigotry doesn’t really stand up.

  • Paisley Lives

    PN: Your argument that you hate the Church but not the gullible flock is Paisley’s, Ulster’s oldest godfahter of anti Catholic violence.

    Padraig: Syphilis is also widespread in India. And not all Indians are white, middle class perverts.

  • borderline

    Widespread, eh?

    Such a scientist.

  • Padraig

    [b]Widespread, eh?

    Such a scientist. [/b]

    Feh! Such gornisht you got

    {a lame attempt at a wise crack replacing reason or logic. From the Yiddish hot air, nothing}

    So let me give a little advice Bubbala. When you have no answer, don;t give one…

    Borderline indeed

  • Padraig

    [b] Syphilis is also widespread in India. And not all Indians are white, middle class perverts.[/b]

    I am about to give up.

    I’ll try one last time.

    If amongst the population of one country, such as the USA and which the CDC confirms the rate of STD amongst homosexuals is higher this is significant.

    Significant should Eskimo’s in the North Pole have high STD rates, or Martians on the moon, or Lapland reindeer, or your uncle Bert, who you swear is straight, have a King Size syphlittic purple conker the size of the ALbert Clock.

    In the name of God use logic.

  • PN

    To clarify, the argument is not that I hate the Catholic Church, just that Padraig’s accusation of bigotry is not logically sound.

    Indeed, it appears that Padraig’s position is the mirror image of Paisley’s. Both are interested in conflating the Catholic Church and Catholics.: Paisley by using criticism of the organisation to justify bigotry against Catholics, Padraig by portraying criticism of the Catholic Church as bigotry against Catholics. Neither approach us sound.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Any word on whether or not Patches was sober?

  • Padraig

    When we meet someone in debate there are two roads we can travel. Firstly to engage in honest, direct discussion about the issue at hand .

    Or second to attack our oppenents credibilty by lauching an attakc on his character.

    This discussion centred around both abortion and the Churches rights or wrongs in correcting a politician who dissented.

    At one a bigot changed the whole tenor of the discussion by attacking the character of the CHurch by talking about child abuse. This changed the whole tenor of the discussion thus changed it form objective discussion of a particular area to charater assault.

    The age old tactic of bigots and folks with little logic or substance to their contribution everywhere.

  • Brit

    “Currently for talking head liberals anti Catholicism is as acceptable as antisemiticism once was to the Nazis.”

    But fortunately talking head liberals are not planning to try to wipe all Catholics of the face of Europe.

    Despite the fact that such bigotry and hate may be considered as somehow tolerable in whichever particular mileau you move, please understand that to countless millions of ordinary decent Catholics such as myself it is very,very offensive.”

    And a woman walking around without a headscarf, or a Muslim converting to Christianity, or two men getting married it very offensive to millions of Muslims. A white man married to a black woman is very offensive to Nick Griffin.
    You’ll have to do a lot better than “I find that offensive”.

    “Now if a homosexual in similar circumstances were to tell you he found this kind of bigotry offensive you would at once apologise and mend you ways.

    Now if a negro in similar circumstances were to tell you this was offensive, you would at once apologise and mend you ways.

    Now if a Jew in similar circumstances were to tell you this you would at once apologise and mend you ways.”

    First mistake is “this kind of bigotry” and the second is to equate religious belief and practice (in relation to which there is a degree of choice and volition – particularly amongst Catholics) with being gay or member of an ethnic group.

    In effect your argument seems to be that it is wrong and bigoted to criticise any aspect of Catholicism? Whether its wrong or bigoted will depend on the nature of the criticims but there is nothing necessarily wrong and certainly not bigoted in criticising, for example, the teachings of the Church on abortion, homosexuality, divorce and contraception, or the way some institutions of the Chuch have protected or even facilited in child abuse.

    “Why not for Catholics? If you prick us do we not bleed?”

    I think one can cricise the instition and the teachings without hating or discriminating against individual Catholics – unless there is a particular aspect of their belief which means that they are fundamentally unsuited to a certain role.

  • Brit

    “The churches are ‘businesses’ ranging from the rabbis selling ‘fresh ’ human kidney’s and livers in New Jersey” WTF?

    “Whether you apologised or not you would find yourself in court being prosecuted by said Jew’s first cousin. The charges would include everything under the sun including the fact that your great great great (40 greats) grandfather was a participant on the pogrom of 1294 when Richard the Lionheart ran out of cash to pay his ‘bankers'”

    Borderline