“Hopefully, it will lead to further discussion of the issues..”

RTÉ’s CSÍ series is about to visit a topic that generated more heat than light the last time it was discussed – and in 2004 Mick noted an even earlier discussion. On Monday 5th October, 7.30pm, RTÉ 1, CSÍ will look “at the killing by the IRA of 13 West Cork protestants over four days in April 1922.” Eoghan Harris, one of the participants in the programme, has written about it here. And there’s a contested wikipedia entry – Dunmanway Massacre.
And a Slugger reader has kindly sent the following programme notes

In “Cork’s Bloody Secret”, descendents of some of the protestant victims return to the scene of the murders. Hazel Baylor is a grand-niece of John Albert Chinnery who was killed at his farm on 28th April 1922. A number of men called to his house at night and asked him to harness a horse to a cart. While he was doing this, they shot and killed him. His grand-niece Hazel Baylor (who speaks lovely Irish) brings her daughter Jennifer to the farm to tell her the story as her own mother had told it to her many years before.

Then she brings Jennifer to a lonely churchyard to show her the grave of “Uncle Bertie” as she calls him (Bertie being the diminutive of his middle name Albert). She speculates on whether he was killed simply because he was a protestant and wishes she had asked her mother for more details while she was alive. As Hazel says in her interview: “Tháinig tost mór agus tá an tost sin fós ann inniu”. She thinks the men who killed her grand-uncle must have known him, “ach níor chuala mé ainm riamh”.

Charles Duff is a lecturer in theatre studies in Norte Dame University. He is based in their London campus. He is an expert in London’s West End drama tradition of the 1950s and has written a book on the subject called “The Lost Summer: The Heyday of the West End Theatre”. He has also worked as an actor and theatre director (he has directed Shakespeare’s Hamlet for example), and he was involved in the New Globe Theatre in London.

He is a grandson of David Gray, the chemist who was shot dead in the doorway of his home in Dunmanway on 27th April 1922. Charles Duff is the son of David Gray’s daughter who was upstairs in bed while her father was being shot. She was only 2-years-old at the time. Because Charles was born out of wedlock, he was temporarily adopted by a Church of Ireland Mission couple in London and then permanently adopted by an aristocratic couple in Wales.

Some years ago, he became interested in his Irish birth-origins and got in touch with some of West Cork’s local historians. In our programme, he visits Dunmanway for the first time ever while local historian Tommy Collins shows him the Chemist Shop where David Gray worked, the house where he was shot and the grave where he is buried. Charles Duff places a floral wreath upon the grave of his grandfather and reflects upon the events.

The programme also features a dialogue between two local historians, one a protestant and the other a catholic. They are Donald Woods and Colum Cronin. Donald was raised in the area but lives in England now while Colum is still living in West Cork. The two men correspond on a regular basis on historical matters relating to Cork, but only recently have they felt able to discuss the 1922 atrocities with each other. They talk about this in the programme. Later, they visit the grave of John Buttimer and tell the story of his murder along with that of his servant boy Jimmy Greenfield.

The programme also features Professor John A Murphy and Eoghan Harris who give us the social, political and historical background to the 1922 events which sets the specific stories of the other participants in their context.

The programme features dramatic reconstructions of the killings of the following people: Acting Commandant Michael O’Neill (IRA), Thomas Hornibrook, Samuel Hornibrook, Captain Herbert Woods, John “Bertie” Chinnery, David Gray, John Buttimer, Jimmy Greenfield. It also includes sequences which suggest some of the other murders in a more general way. These sequences were shot using 16 actors.

The people in this programme are speaking about these events publicly for the first time, so I think the programme is groundbreaking from that perspective. Hopefully, it will lead to further discussion of the issues and other issues in our complex history.

Then, perhaps, we might have a chance of something other than a sham of truth recovery from the more recent past.

, ,

  • Mark McGreg

    And one day soon, maybe, they will all find it ok to discuss history like the civil war….we can but hope for the day that examining history by drabs and drabs isn’t based solely on examining the bad bits of the IRA.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    This discussion will help to dispel the idea, common south of the border, that the Republican insurgencies at either end of the 20th century were essentially different – with the old ‘good’ IRA totally different from the later ‘bad’ IRA.

    Although of course Unionists and Republicans (for very differnet reaons) never accepted this distinction.

  • willis

    I’m not trying to be clever but I was unaware that Notre Dame had a London Campus. Any idea where it is?

  • George

    I haven’t seen it does the programme deal with the contention that these Dunmanway people were on a list of “helpful citizens” left behind by the Black and Tans?

    Or that this was the same list that was linked to loyalist paramilitaries working in the area at the time?

  • congal claen

    Hi George,

    Handy that list turning up!

    Couldn’t possibly have been that sectarian killers were involved in sectarian murder? What’s the chances of that. Oh aye, forgot. Only the prods were involved in that sort of action.

  • Omar Khayam

    Re. George’s comment on “loyalist paramilitaries”
    being around in West Cork in the 1920s, this is a new one for the books. So is the UDA 50 years or more older than we knew ? What codswallop. This is just another tiresome and intellectually bankrupt example of “the Old IRA never did anything sectarian” myth that latter day anti-“revisionists” delight in perpetuating. Better just to forget that there was ethnic cleansing of Prods in West Cork as firmly established by the distinguished historian Peter Hart and other bona fide scholars ? Draw a veil over it all, cover it up, deny it ? Rely on the old Goebbels playbook, i.e., if you are going to tell a lie, tell a whopper. Or if you are denying, deny big time.
    The denials by these latest appeasers of the sectarian killers of often middle class or lower middle class or upper working closs (or small tenant farmer) Prods in County Cork have no credibility; this is a revolting species of appeasement. Bad things happened on both sides. BOTH sides. Stop trying to make it just ONE side. Better just to keep adjusting the facts on Wikipedia entries like mad Stalinist clerks, eh ?Pathetic. Watch the damn film first and stop judging it before it appears. Get a life.

  • Arty Renny

    Omar,

    Peter Hart and other bona fide scholars. I take it you don’t include Peter with the others. After all, claiming to have interviewed anonymous IRA survivors of Kilmichael when they were either all dead or too infirm to have possibly cooperated with him. No agenda there.

    I see Harris claiming he shared a ‘pluralist’ history with a recently deceased academic. The man has an even narrower agenda than those he seeks to dismiss. The man doesn’t believe in facts as he has often stated himself. Anti-factualism, is I believe what he terms it.

    I’ll watch the show but with Harris involved, it’s already skewed. I take it they’ll be interviewing relatives of Republicans from the area to create a bit of balance. No mention of that in the notes.

  • foreign correspondent

    The Old IRA WERE just as bad as the new IRA in the sense that they wrongly used violence, up to and including cold-blooded murder to further their aims. They were both wrong.
    Just as the loyalist paramilitaries were wrong to do what they did.
    And many, many British Army actions have been unjustifiable too.
    Everyone in Ireland needs to wise up to the pointlessness of violence or the island is doomed to a neverending cycle of ‘troubles’ every couple of generations.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    foreign correspondent,

    What about the actions of the old UVF and the use of violence and the threats of violence that led to Norn Iron being excluded from Home Rule?

  • Dec

    And there’s a contested wikipedia entry – Dunmanway Massacre.

    Contested by whom? The article appears to quote from a wide range of sources and historians.

    Slightly off-topic but is Eoghan Harris still a Stalinist?

  • Omar Khayam

    Arty Renny, and Dec; a response:
    I don’t know Peter Hart personally; never met the man, never corresponded with him. I do have his latest book, The Somme, which won the following accolades in the past year: “Hart superbly depicts these months of brutal combat in all their complexity,”(The New York Times, January 9, 2009); “A talented historian, he succeeds in that most important element of history, storytelling,” (Washington Post, March 22, 2009). I absolutely stand by my statement that Hart is indeed a bona fide scholar, who is now Oral Historian at the Imperial War Museum in London and the author or joint author of several highly regarded books. Tell us who the “scholars” you are talking about are, please ? Where did they complete their undergraduate and postgraduate degrees ? What have they published which has been reviewed positively in serious newspapers like The Irish Times, say, or The Guardian, etc., or intellectual/academic journals ? Can you cite this information for us please ?
    Secondly, do you accept that there was ethnic cleansing of the West Cork Protestant community by the IRA in the 1920s ? I am not interested in “whataboutery”. I already said there were horrendous actions on ALL sides in this period, but specifically on the issue of IRA involvement in murder of non-Anglo Irish Protestants, are you saying this just didn’t happen ? The West Cork Protestants were what, 10-15 per cent of the population i.e. a small minority.
    Finally, I of course did not mention Eoghan Harris in my post so you should direct your questions to Mr. Harris, not me. I look forward to your enlightening us all on the particular questions I have posed.
    And, again, let’s not be jumping the gun, as it were. I haven’t seen the programme yet, nor have you. And I wasn’t commenting on the programme, only on the early post by “George.” Let’s not prejudge something before we have seen/heard it, eh ? And that goes for me too of course.

  • ulsterfan

    When we have explored the way in which the IRA murdered Protestants in west Cork some attention should be given to how SF drove the Jewish Community from Cork City.
    It really gives a new meaning to Ourselves alone.
    No one else is to be considered worthy to live in this blessed holy country.
    These views persists to the present day.
    Ireland for the Irish, Catholic and Gaelic giving allegiance to one church and culture.

  • Alan – Newtownards

    Unfortunately I can’t recieve R.T.E. as this looks like an interesting programme. I’m interested as I have had three enjoyable holidays in recent years, in a little place called Rathbarry not very far from Dunmanaway. I obviously have known about these murders and think it’s great that R.T.E. are prepared to look into them. Times have certainly changed in the south when the state broadcaster is showing a programe about sectarian murders carried out in the Free State.

    Just like to mention a conversation I had with a local man who I became friendly over a number of years. I mentioned to him that I had recently read a book about De Valera. He looked at me as if I had two heads, then spat on the ground and muuttered “Spanish bastard”. His parents had been close friends of Micheal Collins.

  • Dec,

    Contested by whom?

    Click onto the discussion button at the top of the Wiki article:

    “This article is currently subject to Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/The_Troubles#Final_remedies_for_AE_case, as laid out during a previous WP:AE case that closed October 05, 2008.”

  • fin

    Its a bit easy to look at individual incidents in isolation and go tut tut, Irish TV has covered the outrages of the English forces in the past so this gives balance, its a sign of a country comfortable with themselves that they can do it,

  • Reader

    It was Sammy: Although of course Unionists and Republicans (for very differnet reaons) never accepted this distinction.
    The discussion as to whether Dunmanway corresponds best to Kingsmills or Teebane is a matter for Republicans and Nationalists to thrash out. Unionists don’t think it was right either way.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Reader,

    Yes I know Unionist thinking on the old/new IRAs.

    What do you think about the actions of the old UVF in threatening violence which led to the formation of Norn Iron – are you OK with that?

  • OC

    What I wonder is, have any RoI Protestant groups made a case for a UI?

  • Arty Renny

    @ Omar

    You’ve nailed Hart alright. A storyteller. Meda Ryan , (you’ll dimiss her no doubt) destroyed his ‘evidence’ in her book about Tom Barry. You do not need a degree or post grad to do facts. And having a degree or post grad doesn’t mean you always tell the truth or don’t make stuff up. Where’s the court case from Hart defending his reputation after Ryan’s demolition of his ‘version’ of events in Kilmichael?

    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/72100

    I don’t accept there was ethnic cleansing in Cork as the terminology didn’t enter English and international media usage until the early 1990s to describe war events in the former Yugoslavia. And nothing like that happened in Cork in the 20’s. Your use of that language is designed to be provocative and quite frankly you’re dishonestly trying to exaggerate, what were brutal slayings, into something they were not. Saying that, it doesn’t make them any less dead. Do I believe that some of the killings were motivated by sectarianism? Yes, I do. Do I believe that all protestants killed during this period were killed because of their religion? No, I certainly do not. Why was Captain Woods killed? Did the republicans that kill him announce that he was killed exclusively because of his religion? Or perhaps, just maybe, he killed one of their comrades.

    I notice you try to predict ‘whatabouttery’ when I didn’t quote any examples of aggresive behaviour by British forces but it says a lot about your agenda that you want to narrow the debate before it starts. Of course, these killings happened in isolation, didn’t they? No link to what was going on in that area? All innocent protestants murdered purely and entirely because of their religion. Would you accept that some/any of these residents of Cork were shot, and again, I say, in very brutal circumstances, because of a political stand they took? Even just one of them?

    Do I believe that protestants left Cork because of killings? Yes , I do. Do I believe that all of these protestants left because of the killings? No, I do not. A lot of protestants were loyalists, loyal to the crown, who actively opposed the republicans during the war. When their side lost, of course their prospects changed. They, a great number of those that did leave, chose the wrong side on this occasion. Sam Maguire was a protestant from Dunmanway and chose the winning side.

    All of this does not in any way seek to justify retributive killings some 90 years hence and I welcome the retelling of all sides’ versions. You seem to be only interested in one narrative and it dovetails succintly with an agenda that Harristotle has been pushing for years. A disturbingly dishonest and narrow agenda that has little to do with facts or historical context. He even wants posters banned from paricular websites for opposing this devisive agenda.

    And any one who does oppose his version of events are labeled anti-prod or in the case of some Church of Ireland members who have challenged these claims as ‘traitors’ to fellow protestants.

    The programme would stand on its own two feet mush better without Harris’s particular non-factual vitriol.

  • Omar Khayam

    In order, “Arty Renny,” here is my response to your post, below your (shortened) paragraphs, in capital letters, just to delineate your comment from mine:

    You’ve nailed Hart alright. A storyteller……

    I DON’T KNOW OF MEDA RYAN, BUT I DID GOOGLE HER AND WHILE I FOUND SOME INFORMATION BUT IT WAS VERY SCANTY. THERE WAS NO BIOGRAPHY OF HER SAYING WHERE SHE HAD STUDIED HISTORY, OR ANOTHER RELATED SUBJECT, WHETHER SHE HAS WRITTEN FOR THE IRISH TIMES ON HER CHOSEN SUBJECTS, OR FOR ANOTHER SERIOUS PAPER, OR JOURNAL., ETC. CAN YOU ENLIGHTEN US ? IF SHE IS INDEED A CREDIBLE EXPERT THEN I AM HAPPY TO STAND CORRECTED. PLEASE DETAIL THE ACCOLADES FOR HER WORK. MY BRIEF WEB FORAY SUGGESTS SHE IS A LOCAL HISTORIAN ?

    AS FOR PETER HART BEING CITED BY THE WASHINGTON POST AND NEW YORK TIMES AS A “STORYTELLER,” SURELY THAT’S A FINE COMPLIMENT SINCE SOME HISTORIANS’ OFFERINGS ARE SO DULL BUT SCHOLARLY THEY DON’T MAKE EASY READING! HARDLY A BLACK MARK AS YOU SEEM TO THINK.

    I don’t accept there was ethnic cleansing in Cork…….

    SO, “ETHNIC CLEANSING,” SHD NOT APPLY TO THE WEST CORK MURDERS OF PROTESTANTS THEN ? HMMMMMM….AND YOU SAY THIS PHRASE ONLY OCCURRED IN THE RECENT BALKANS WARS ? NO, ETHNIC CLEANSING CAN BE APPLIED OVER MANY CENTURIES FROM BEFORE THE MIDDLE AGES, THROUGH THE WARS OF RELIGION AND ON AND ON TO THE PRESENT DAY. BUT LET ME SET ASIDE THE PHRASE WHICH OFFENDS YOU SO MUCH. SO, THE LARGE NUMBERS OF IRISH PEOPLE WHO WERE KILLED BY THE IRA IN WEST CORK, THE VAST MAJORITY OF WHOM WERE PART OF A SMALL ETHNIC MINORITY WHICH JUST HAPPENED TO BE…..PROTESTANT. UNFORTUNATE COINCIDENCE EH ? WAS IT ODD THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE VICTIMS OF THE UDA AND UVF KILLERS IN THE NORTHERN IRELAND TROUBLES JUST HAPPENED TO BE…….CATHOLIC ? HARDLY. BIT OF A DOUBLE STANDARD YOU’RE OPERATING ON THE WEST CORK FRONT, NO ? SO, THE PRODS IN WEST CORK, WHO WERE IRISHMEN AND IRISH WOMEN, HAD NO RIGHT TO FAVOUR THE BRITISH LINK THEN ? WHERE WAS THE RESPECT FOR THEIR POLITICAL VIEWS ? FOR THEIR FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS TO LIFE AND PROPERTY ? LETHALLY LACKING, SAD TO SAY. SO THE WEST CORK PRODS WEREN’T KILLED FOR THEIR RELIGION – JUST THEIR POLITICAL BELIEFS, THEN ? THAT THEY JUST HAPPENED TO BE OF THE OPPOSITE FAITH IS NOT, WELL, PERTINENT ? WHAT A WONDERFUL DOUBLE STANDARD: THE IRA ONLY SHOT BRIT-SUPPORTERS BUT NEVER PROTESTANTS…..THERE’S A BIZARRE DISTINCTION. I CAN JUST IMAGINE THE CONVERSATION: “BILLY WE’RE NOT SHOOTING YOU BECAUSE YOU’RE A PROD. WE’RE SHOOTING YOU BECAUSE YOU LIKE THE BRITS. NOW YOU CAN SAY YOUR PROD PRAYERS BEFORE WE BLOW YOUR BRAINS OUT IN FRONT OF THE WIFE AND KIDS.” AH, SUCH POLITESSE, SUCH CHRISTIAN CHARITY. BILLY MUST HAVE REALLY TAKEN COMFORT FROM THAT.

    I notice you try to predict ‘whatabouttery’ when I didn’t quote any examples of aggresive behaviour by British forces……..

    NARROW THE DEBATE ?! THE PROGRAMME WAS NOT ABOUT THE BLACK AND TANS ! IF IT WAS, I WOULD HAPPILY CONDEMN TAN OUTRAGES – BUT IT ISN’T! THAT’S WHAT I MEAN WHEN I REJECT THE “WHATABOUTERY’ NONSENSE. LET’S STICK TO THE SUBJECT OF THE PROGRAMME. THAT’S WHAT THE POST WAS ALL ABOUT. YOU ARE THE ONE WHO WANTS TO STRAY FROM THE SUBJECT OF THE PROGRAMME, NOT ME !

    Do I believe that protestants left Cork because of killings? Yes , I do. Do I believe that all of these protestants left because of the killings? No, I do not……

    AH YES, POOR PRODS WHO LEFT, JUST PICKED THE “LOSING” SIDE; HARD LUCK. WHAT WAS THAT DEV WENT ON AND ON ABOUT “CHERISHING ALL THE CHILDREN OF THE NATION EQUALLY” ? NICE WORDS; BUT WORDS DAMAGED BY EVIL DEEDS IN WEST CORK. NOT CROPPIES LIE DOWN, BUT PRODDIES LIE DOWN, EH ? OR, IN A KINDER AND GENTLER WAY, JUST MAKING THE AREA A FREEZING COLD HOUSE FOR THE PRODS AND MAKING THEM FEEL THEY WD BE WARMER ELSEWHERE.

    All of this does not in any way seek to justify retributive killings some 90 years hence and I welcome the retelling of all sides’ versions. You seem to be only interested in one narrative and it dovetails succintly with an agenda that Harristotle has been pushing for years…….

    YOU ARE OBSESSED WITH MR. HARRIS. BUT I WILL REPEAT, I NEVER MENTIONED HIM IN MY ORIGINAL POST. HE’S YOUR BUGBEAR CLEARLY. TAKE IT UP WITH HIM! MY GOODNESS HE REALLY DOES GET UNDER YOUR SKIN, ARTY. I AM BEGINNING TO THINK HE MUST HAVE SOMETHING VERY USEFUL TO IMPART. I MUST CHECK HIM OUT. I ALWAYS LIKED THE GREEK PHILOSOPHERS; I DIDN’T KNOW THERE WERE IRISH EQUIVALENTS NOW. FASCINATING.

    And any one who does oppose his version of events are labeled anti-prod……

    SO, WANT ANOTHER SWING ON THE ROUNDABOUT ? I THINK I HAVE MADE MY POINT. I SHALL RETIRE FROM THE BATTLEFIELD – FOR NOW. CAN’T BE WASTING MORE TIME REVISING DELUDED ANTI-REVISIONISTS. BETTER TO USE MY ENERGY ON OTHER MATTERS.

    Ave atque vale !, as the Romans (Italian variety), would say,
    Omar.

  • igor

    “IRA were racist murderers”

    ……and the surprise is? You do not promote inter-community relations by walking into a fish shop crowded with women and children and detonating a bomb

    and there were many areas of Belfast where in 1970 – 73 (and later) PIRA practised the ethnic cleansing they learned at the knee of their Mammys in tales of the brave days of yore. Indeed, they revelled in it until they went political and had to promote the MOPE brand to left wing liberals who might abhor such practices.(and before you start the Prods were just as good at it)

  • Framer

    Those who hunt Peter Hart and Eoghan Harris use Meda Ryan’s book ‘Tom Barry’ as cover. She explains the murders of the Protestants as resulting from them being described as ‘helpful citizens’ on a list mistakenly found after the British forces left Dunmanway. The ‘principal’ victim, the Rev Ralph Harbord, was ‘associated’ with a supposed ‘Loyalist Action Group’.

    These documents are conveniently inaccessible (location unknown). Even Ryan admits there is not ‘an exact copy’. None the less they are the justification in Republican terms for the 13 killings.

    So let us see them or else stop excusing the massacre.

  • Arty Renny

    @ Omar.

    You obviously didn’t read my post and then went on an hysterical rant telling me my opinons about all and sundry. I answered all your points but you obviously don’t believe in reasoned thinking. I havn’t defended any of the killings nor dismissed sectarian motives out of hand but that isn’t good enough for you. Somebody claiming to be such an expert as yourself on the issue would know very well who Meda Ryan is or maybe you’re just being disingenuous.

    I’m allowed to mention Eoghan Harris, you know. He is as central to the thread as he was to the programme last night. I supposed you never heard of him either.

    You then preach about whatabouttery even though I didn’t indulge in the same before bringing up the UDA and UVF killing catholics in the last forty years. Phew!

    And after that breathless illogical scatter gun spew you have the nerve to call others deluded.

    Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

    @Framer

    I quoted Meda Ryan in the context of the Kilmichael ambush and Peter Hart’s credibilty about the same. Ryan basically accused him of telling porkies . Accusations he has yet to refute and taken no legal action defending his reputation. Of course, Meda Ryan will have her own agenda but at least she admitted what her sources were.

  • Frankly Mr. Shankly

    The Peter Hart who wrote ‘The Somme’ is not the same Peter Hart who wrote the book on Cork. Two different men. The Cork Hart is based at Newfoundland.
    The Eoghan Harris who was a supporter and advisor to the Official IRA (who include a Unionist senator and a teenage Protestant boy among their victims) is the same Eoghan Harris who is pontificating on this subject. (See ‘The Lost Revolution’ by Brian Hanly and Scott Miller recently published).
    Meda Ryan is the author of books on Tom Barry, Liam Lynch and Micheal Collins.

  • Arty Renny

    That is hilarious, Frankly, Mr Shankly. Best laugh I’ve had in ages

    Perhaps Omar could ask this Peter Hart what to do when the wind is taken out of one’s sails

    http://www.peter-hart.com/

  • Omar Khayam

    Frankly Mr. Shankly, you are indeed correct. Thanks. I actually hunted for my Somme book, which I bought recently and am looking forward to reading, and was unable to find it to check if this is the same Peter Hart of The IRA and Its Enemies, which I have in my library and was well reviewed in the serious press and which I enjoyed.
    THAT Peter Hart has a very good pedigree indeed — Memorial University, Newfoundland; Queen’s University, Kingston, Ontario; MA from Yale; PhD from TCD; lecturer for five years at QUB; and a return as Associate Professor at Memorial University since 2002. Young man too. Impressive colleges/universities/academic postings. Plus other major books published by major publishing houses such as Oxford University Press, MacMillan etc, winner of the prestigous Ewart Biggs Memorial Prize and other prizes.
    I asked Arty Renny earlier to tell us what Meda Ryan’s academic/scholarly/research background is. He has not detailed this at all despite my specific request. Do you know ? There is virtually nothing on the web beyond her name and her book, which is critical of Professor Hart.

  • Arty Renny

    What sort of snob are you? Are you seriously telling me that someone who does not have a degree is not entitled to write books?

    And by the way she was educated at UCC and City College of New York. She was also the author of The Day Michael Collins Was Shot, The Real Chief:the Story of Liam Lynch, Tom Barry: IRA Freedom Fighter , the one in which she tears your Peter Hart a new one and Biddy Early:The Wise Woman of Clare. She was born in Bandon but now lives in Clare and has penned many more pamphlets on local history.

  • Reader

    It was Sammy: What[about…]
    Class, pure class.

  • lula

    Just watched the program on RTÉ Player (http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1056940). Comparison with sectarianism in the North (both contemporary and in more recent decades) is of course very natural. One thing that struck me during the program was what was said to one of these victims as he was shot. His killer called him a “Free Stater”. Bear in mind many members of the IRA in West Cork, which is a Protestant enclave, were Protestant.

    The religion/sectarian/political dynamic in the south has always been very different to the North. I don’t doubt that sectarianism had a part to play but straight-up comparisons with killings in the North are flawed. That is not to say that sectarianism did not exist in the South (read for example “The Curious Case of the Mayo Librarian” – http://www.amazon.co.uk/Curious-Case-Mayo-Librarian/dp/1856356159) but its form was very different to sectarianism in the North.

    “Or that this was the same list that was linked to loyalist paramilitaries working in the area at the time?”

    Loyalist paramilitaries roaming West Cork in 1922? Who were they? The Black and Tans? George, you truly need to expand on that one.

  • lula

    Another thing that struck me was how among the best speakers of Irish on the program were the local CoI reverend and the CoI granddaughter of one of the victims. (The program is largely as Gaeilge.)

  • barnshee

    I have direct family testimoney for these events more than one of my ancestors was on the infamous train attacked as they fled– Bombed and murdered because of their religion,

    Forced sales- bad prices nobody ever held to account– Touched on very briefly and to a degree coyly, was the land acquisitions which resulted as a result. A relative quoted ciceros “qui bonum”

    “Look who ended up with the properties” that gave a fair idea of those responsible. The events poisoned the attitudes another three generations of prods

  • OC

    Again I ask: What major RoI Protestant groups have openly stated that a UI is in the best interests of NI Protestants?

  • Barnshee

    Again I ask: What major RoI Protestant groups have openly stated that a UI is in the best interests of NI Protestants?

    with 3% of the population by definition there can hardly be a “major protestant group”

  • OC

    ‘with 3% of the population by definition there can hardly be a “major protestant group”’

    OK – how about any Protestant group?

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    OC,

    there is no evidence to suggest that any Protestant group or any any other group religious or otherwise would not believe that a UI would not be in the interests of Northern Protestants.

    The reason nobody would bother to say it is becuase the vast majority of Prods in the South like the vast majority of every other group take the National aspriation of a UI as a given.

    The dreadful religious sectrainsim that is a feature of Norn Iorn and parts of Scotland simply does not apply in the ROI.

  • OC

    Sammy: I recall several years ago Ian Paisley Sr making a trip to the RoI to meet the Irish PM in order to discuss a spate of attacks against Presbyterian churches in RoI.

    It does seem to me that part of Irish nationalism’s quest for a UI would include a campaign to convince the predominately Protestant unionist population to vote for a UI.

    But if RoI Protestants can’t make the case, then who can?

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    OC,

    RE “But if RoI Protestants can’t make the case, then who can?”

    They feel no need to make the case – nor does any other group in ROI society – you have to understand it is NOT like Norn Iron – Prods, Jews, Hindus etc aspire to a UI just like Catholics becuase it is viewed as the National aspiration.

  • OC

    So what case can then be made to NI Protestants that a UI is in their best interests, and by whom?

    Are you saying that the case cannot be made?

    Why would NI Protestants not want to be part of a UI?

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    OC,

    I personally dont believe that the vast majority of Prods in Norn Iron are remotely interested in any case that might be made – as it is already overwhelming.

    The vast majority of people in Ireland (all religions and creeds in the South and about 40% in the North) think that Ireland should be United and the vast majority of people in Britain believe Ireland should be United.

    When a Tory government told them they had no strategic interest in Norn Iron – no one in Britain thought anything of it. Can you imagine if Mrs Thatch said “We have no strategic interest in Kent” or if Chuchill had promised the channel islands to France if they backed Britian during the war? Have you crazy Unionist Paddy feckers no pride at all?

    But dont despair – we will still give you a home, you may be a difficult bunch but you are all Irish after all.

  • OC

    So, to paraphrase: “You can move in with me ’cause no one else will have you.”

    That’s it? That’s your case?

    Please, dear God, can somebody make a better case for a UI that NI Protestants can get behind?

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    OC,

    yer best man times like these is to have a good read of the GFA particulalry Strand 2 – where both elected governments map out the road to cooperation and ever closer links between the two parts of the island – here we have a gentle but firm good bye note from the British, and a welcome-back note from the Irish and which sets out the advantages of the new life and the practical ways to bring it about.

  • OC

    Having glanced at Strand 2, it seems to be rather a case for there being no need for a UI.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    OC,

    Oh dear. Well I did suggest above that some people wouldnt be convinced no matter how good the case.

  • hurdy gurdy man

    Sammy McNally

    [i]the vast majority of people in Britain believe Ireland should be United[/i]

    Nonsense. The vast majority of people in Britain couldn’t give a shit one way or the other.

    As for the “vast majority of people in Ireland”, I have to confess to being less sure, but apart from the nationalist population north of the border I see little evidence of any real appetite for it.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    hurdy gurdy man,

    re. “Nonsense. The vast majority of people in Britain couldn’t give a shit one way or the other.”

    If you ever bump into any British people try running it by them and see what they tell you. But hopefully Unionists now at least realise, post GFA, that what you have outlined above is as good as it gets.

    re. “As for the “vast majority of people in Ireland”, I have to confess to being less sure, but apart from the nationalist population north of the border I see little evidence of any real appetite for it.”

    All the main political parties have it as one of their main objectives – there are no siginificant numbers of dissenting voices or dissenting groups (e.g Prods) from that objective.

  • OC

    Although I read of a “50 + 1” threshold, anything less than a “50 + 1” of the NI “unionist” vote in favor of a UI would seem to me to be a recipe for disaster.

    Just as I’ve written that things like an ILA for NI would help make NI nationalists feel at least indifferent towards a UI, what case is being made for a UI so that “50 + 1” of NI “unionists” would vote “yes”?

    And in the event that the RoI can’t reach a “50 + 1” “UI yes” vote, what then for a “50 + 1” NI “UI yes” vote? NI independance?

  • hurdy gurdy man

    [i]re. “Nonsense. The vast majority of people in Britain couldn’t give a shit one way or the other.”

    If you ever bump into any British people try running it by them and see what they tell you.[/i]

    I base my remarks entirely on what they tell me: for the most part they’re not bothered either way.

    Of the tiny minority who profess an interest I’d say most (though hardly the “vast majority”) express some sympathy with the idea of a united Ireland. But here, you often encounter such stunning ignorance that it’s difficult to regard their views with anything other than eye-rolling contempt.

    For many it comes as news that the majority of N.Ireland electorate wish to remain within the UK. And I recall one young man who, though not stupid in any other respect, thought Belfast was situated on the border between NI and the Republic – hence the trouble. A level of ignorance which speaks volumes about the level of indifference to our little quarrel.

    As for the situation in the Republic I’m not sure that each of the main parties having a UI as one of their main objectives can be interpreted as “the vast majority of people in Ireland think[ing] that Ireland should be united.” For folk in the Republic such avowals are probably more a matter of etiquette than genuine ardour – much in the same way that most Americans will tell you that all men are created equal. But I’m open to correction.

  • barnshee

    “the dreadful religious sectrainsim that is a feature of Norn Iorn and parts of Scotland simply does not apply in the ROI”

    With a 97% catholic population it would appear to be difficult to find anyone to be sectarian to

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    barnshee,

    not sure large numbers are a pre-requisite when you dont like a particular group e.g. Eastern Europeans in the Village and I would not be suprised if the % of Prods in Donegal is much differnet from the % of Fenians in quite a few parts of Norn Iron.