Fianna Fail’s northern expeditionary force hits Downpatrick…

It seems that on Saturday Fianna Fail was in the Denvir Hotel in Downpatrick to launch its new Down Forum with Irish government ministers Dermot Ahern and Eamonn O Cuiv attending. Recently returned emigre Joe O’Neill was there to cover the event… YOu have to admire their commitment, but with the party’s latest opinion rating in the Republic sitting at an historic low (that would be 17%!!), it may not be the moment to expect great things from any southern political party in Northern Ireland… Just now, despite Minister O’Cuiv’s reference to his granddad being an MP for the area, it has the look of Jack Lynch’s invasion of 1969

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  • Chris Donnelly

    Interesting choice of venues, not lost on Tom Kelly this morning.

    Fianna Fail’s northern advance would appear inevitable, and all nationalists and republicans should welcome that as an important step in reorienting politics to an island-wide axis.

    I wouldn’t get carried away, Mick, with the current predicament of Fianna Fail. A term in opposition is what the party needs, during which the party’s northern expansion will no doubt accelerate.

    This is a win win for Sinn Fein, who can claim to have laid the foundations for island wide politics; it is also a challenge to the party, which should not be underestimated.

    The real losers, within nationalism, are the SDLP, and by hitting the ground in South Down it is clear Fianna Fail have done their homework.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    I suppose it is possible that with their political base fast disappearing in the South they may need an alternative base fairly soon and 17% of the vote in the North at least gurantees you a few ministers in a coalition.

    But it wont do them any harm posturing as an ‘All Ireland party’ – something nice to put in the party literature to back up the ‘Republican Party’ claim which always looked a bit silly given that they were not keen on putting a foot over the border and Dermot, being a border boy, who is no doubt infused with the dream of reclaiming the National territory is probably the best man for this particlar southern invasion.

  • Mick Fealty

    Chris,

    I have a lot more to say on that particular matter, but later on today if I can get the time to do it. Much of it to do with a certain kind of hubris amongst some of the Opposition parties.

    Re the SDLP and TK: see my next post above this one… But suffice to say, a nationalist split in south Down could see Catriona home nicely…

    Though I take the 2016 date to be significant in that regard…

  • GGN

    As an Irish citizen I have a concern over the oath of allegience, will Fianna Fáil once again declare it an empty formula? Could we have a Fianna Fáil TD in Louth in the government of the Republic whilst a Fianna Fáil MP for South Down (or South Belfast??) declares their allegience to Elizabeth II?

    I welcome the tenative move north however, I do feel there is a natural Fianna Fáil constituency in the North, but I do feel it currently votes SDLP.

  • Coll Ciotach

    Needless to say I was in Downpatrick and it was an excellent night – well attended and efficiently ran. But just to point something out – this is our second forum, the first was in Armagh. Read Tom Kelly and I get a feeling of mixed emotions from him.

    I would not just focus on the SDLP. They are not the only ones that should be worried. We had ex SF, SDLP and UU members at that launch. That is the appeal of FF. They can and will attract membership and votes from everywhere.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Coll Ciotach,

    I dont think that ANY party in Western Europe (including Italy) can compete with FF on the issue of corruption* and what in feck’s name has a party which has proven iteslf to be totally blind to an enconomic collapse which was clearly happening all around them go to offer the plain people of Norn Iron in a political marketplace already overcrowded? FF is a party, justifiably in terminal decline, and may relish a few last flings over the border but jaysus dont dress it up as anything other than a few harmless day out for the battle weary.

    *We had corrupt ministerial feckers in jail, other ministerial feckers before tribunals, a minister of finance who didnt know how to open a bank account, who gave blank cheques to his corrupt leader to furnish his lavish wardrobe and who subsequently went on National telly, as National leader, to hide his corrupt dealing behind his family breakdown( which he had introduced into the debate) in a performance which could have been taken straight from Father Ted.

    Surely, surely the plain Nationlaist people of Norn Iron have suffered enough without having the ‘cute hoors’ of Southern politics visited on them.

  • Rory Carr

    Which goings on bring to mind a time when an earlier Republican from Cork visited Denvir’s Hotel and was later celebrated in this poem by Florence M. Wilson :

    The Man from God-knows-where which begins:

    Into our townlan, on a night of snow,
    Rode a man from God-knows-where;
    None of us bade him stay or go,
    Nor deemed him friend, nor damned him foe.
    But we stabled his big roan mare:
    For in our townlan we’re decent folk,
    An if he didn’t speak, why none of us spoke,
    An we sat till the fire burned low.

    The “Man from God-knows-where” was Thomas Russell, Presbyterian, lawyer and a leader of the United Irishmen, who although he did not take part in the 1798 rising:

    “He missed the 1798 attempt at Revolution as he was imprisoned at Fort George in Scotland on a charge of High Treason. Was released in 1802 and went to Paris where he met up with Robert Emmett and began plans for the Rising of 1803.

    After the failure of the rising he was arrested and executed.”

    Which execution is folornly described in the final two stanzas of the poem:

    By Downpatrick Gaol I was bound to fare
    On a day I’ll remember, faith
    For when I came to the prison square
    The people were waitin in hundreds there,
    An you wouldn’t hear stir nor breath
    For the sodgers were standin, grim an tall,
    Round a scaffold built fornent the wall,
    An a man stepped out for death

    I was brave an near to the edge o the throng,
    Yet I knowed the face again,
    An I knowed the set, an I knowed the walk
    An the sound of his strange up-country talk,
    For he spoke out right an plain
    Then he bowed his head to the swingin rope
    While I said, “Please God” to his dyin hope
    An “Amen” to his dyin prayer.
    That the wrong should cease and the right prevail
    For the man that they hanged at Downpatrick Gaol
    Was the man from God-knows-where.

    It remains no doubt the prayer of the good people of Downpatrick (“For in our townlan we’re decent folk”) “That the wrong should cease and the right prevail” but they may be forgiven if they are less than secure in the promise that Fianna Fail might bring about that happy set of circumstances.

    The Gaol at Downpatrick still stands just up English Street and on the opposite side to Denvir’s Hotel but I doubt that this thought caused any of the assembled FF delegates to finger their necks uncomfortably. More’s the pity.

  • Barnshee

    “I would not just focus on the SDLP. They are not the only ones that should be worried. We had ex SF, SDLP and UU members at that launch.”

    UU ?? some mistake surely not a prod in that company??

    Wait a minute — my goodness surely not –could he/she have been NOT A PROD shock horror

  • Dev

    The brown envelope manufacturers of Ulster can hardly believe their luck …

  • Coll Ciotach

    Sammy

    It is the other way around – this is a totally local lead initiative. So in effect the plain people of so called “Norn Iron” as foisting themselves on the “cute hoors”. Nice tirade though. Points for that.

    Another interesting historical incident concerning Denvirs is that the Great Liberator addressed a crowd from a balcony there.

    Barnshee – I neither know nor care about the religious affiliation of any member bar those who let me know. But an ex UU member, whose redenomination is unknown to me and known of my business, was there and gave quite a good oration.

    We are not sectarian, which I know is hard for those who are to comprehend, but that is a reflection on them not us.

  • Driftwood

    The old Gaol is now Down County Museum, but closer to Denvir’s Hotel, just across the street lies the tombstone of Thomas Russell, in the graveyard of Down Parish Church.
    Sadly the area surrounding, and I’m sure noticed by some FF delegates during daylight, is bedecked by loyalist flags.
    Re: Harvey Bicker, a sad character, for whom the term political opportunist is too weak a term.

  • Coll Ciotach

    Oops redomination=denomination

  • Coll Ciotach

    Harvey was in fine form, I think a certain venom is being unleashed on him for not being tribal. Again that reflects on the originator not the target. But he is not the only ex unionist there.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Coll Ciotach

    re. “But he is not the only ex unionist there”

    if you are suggesting that FF are going to split the Unionist vote further and not the Nationlaist one then this crazy project might just be worthy of some support.

  • Coll Ciotach

    I am not suggesting anything – just reporting what is happening not only at the meeting in Down but in all areas we are organising.

  • Driftwood

    It was beneficial for Harveys’ ‘business interests’ to make such a move, but Slugger has discussed this before:

    http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/ex-uup-councillor-and-army-officer-signs-up-to-republican-party/P0/

    Some of the Unionist vote in South Down in the general election may go to Eddie McGrady for obvious reasons.

    The Guinness in Denvir’s is shite BTW.

  • TKbytesback

    coll you have read me correctly,, I have mixed emotions on the FF meeting in Downpatrick. I have invested alot of my life supporting the SDLP.. but to me the project is near an end and thats difficult personally but I wish that whatever FF do- that those in the SDLP who spend their time wishing it otherwise would set out their stall. the present one has no new customers buying from it. FF has set their stall out who takes it up .we will see As for other points . if anyone thinks we dont have cute hoor politics in the North..they right we have has just the down right criminal.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Is there any recent impartial wisdom, polls etc which suggest the outcome in South Down next year?

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    TKbytesback,

    Violent Hoors V Cute Hoors
    Tiocfaidh ár lá V Tá ár lá imithe

    The plain people of Norn Iron may perfer those who fought for their country (ie SF) as opposed to those who trousered from it (ie FF) even if the methods of the former were not much to their liking – it seems to be the same even in Dublin where SF has a lead over the warriors of corruption and paticulalry so in the younger age groups.

  • Coll Ciotach

    Sammy

    They may or may not – but I can tell you this much. Ex SF members are contacting us, SF is at its zenith, they will only go down from here.

    We are the only nationalist party with any hope of forming a national government.

    SF despite their best efforts remain a partitionist party running a partitionist assembly which is reliant on British largesse and therefor controlled.

    If there is anyone who can deliver for nationalists in Ireland it is Fianna Fail. The rest are all in the pay of England and he who calls the piper calls the tune.

    What British funded scheme will they be administrating next?

    If Stormont falls what can SF do?

  • dunreavynomore

    It Was Sammy…..
    Surely you don’t believe that there was, or is, no ‘trousering’ in S.F. or the newly proclaimed ‘good old’ ira? Neither will F.F members take you to a shed in Co Monaghan and batter you mercilessly to death as your s.f heroes did to Paul Quinn nor murder you at a Belfast pub and cover it up. As for ‘fighting for their country…’, that’s a bit of a joke for the big majority of current Sinn Féiners which includes ex r.u.c men, ex Fianna Failers, ex Workers party all living delightfully on the Stormont sub contract British administration.

  • loki

    Expect Conservatives and FF to be in charge of Assembly by 2016. that should keep both traditions happy

  • Coll Ciotach

    No it won’t and an apt nom de keyboard by the way Loki

  • B B B Bertie

    Fianna Fail’s northern expeditionary force hits down Patrick

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    dunreavynomore,

    I dont believe that SF are exempt from trousering as are no political party, it’s just that FF are the brand leaders – and their leaders – actually led from the front.

    re. Paul Quinn – the people who did that, should be before the courts and SF’s position on this, and in the McCartney case is very poor and unconvincing.

    re. fighting for your country – are you suggesting SF should not have cut a deal with the British?

  • Trotsky

    The more choice the Nationalist electorate has the better. For too long, both the SDLP and now SF has treated those who voted for their policies with contempt….mere pawns to be ignored after the ballot box closes….that said FF was and is a pastmaster of this in the South….

    But regardless of the motives, any movement from Southern parties to move into the North will be welcomed.

  • John East Belfast

    I say bring them on – The gaping “mid lothian” type problems for FF in NI are easily exploitable.

    eg I assume now they will be looking for votes from northerners employed by the big border supermarkets we wont have any complaints form FF Ministers in Dublin complaining about money going to the British Exchequer ?
    Or are the jobs of Northern FF voters less important ?

    They will disappear up their own arse eventually in the contradictions of trying to have one foot in two separate competitive and fiscal jurisdictions.

  • Chris Donnelly

    JEB

    Your initial point is sensible and goes some way to appreciating why nationalists of all hues will welcome a Fianna Fail foray northwards.

    I can’t wait to hear Dermot Ahern excuse the ‘unpatriotic’ jibes, never mind repeated references to ‘the country’ stopping at the Cooley mountains.

    On the latter point, however, I digress. Ireland is not the only country with different jurisdictions- the US has 50 of them, each with state governments, and many others Nations exist along similar lines.

    All in all, this is a very positive development for Irish nationalism.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Chris,

    what is needed is a strong Nationlaist party in Norn Iron – just one – are you suggesting you would like to see FF garner say 15% support at SFs expense? Their support has to come from somewhere – and it the aim of every party is to out vote the opposition and whatever warm noises SF may make about ‘healthy competition’ and all island politics the reality is that the splitting of the Nationlaist vote is not good for Nationalists and SF can only be relaxed about it as long as the Unionists are similalry or even more divided or the threat, as is the case here, will probably amount to feck all.

  • TKbytesback

    The nonsense about vote splitting is hilarious. SF were the main vote splitters for years keeping nationalists from representation when the SDLP were the main contenders in seats held by unionists like Newry Armagh/South Down/ Mid Ulster. The issue should be a dead one now that a settlement has been reached. It has taken of all parties the Tories to rule out pacts for the Ulster Unionists, so people should not be denied choice especially when the SDLP and Sinn Fein keep telling us that they are not sectarian.

  • Coll Ciotach

    To those talking about vote splitting. When the time comes to contest elections I see FF participation as not a vote splitter but a vote maximizer.

    I can remember when SF first decided to contest elections. This vote splitting accusation was tosssed at Mr Adams and he quite rightingly responded that he would be maximising the vote.

    He was correct then.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    TKbytesback

    re ” The issue should be a dead one now that a settlement has been reached. ”

    FYI There is a difference between doing what is best for your own tribe/sect/country and being sectarian e.g. trying to you unify your country by democratically maximising your vote and avoiding unecessasy vote-splitting is an example of the former and making anti-catohlic/protestant speeches, doing funny marches where they are not wanted are examples of the latter.

    Norn Iron was set up on the basis of a tribal head count and will be done away with (hopefully) on the same basis – the posturing of a largely corrupt Southern political party in the North probably wont do any harm ie is not capable of vote splitting anyway and like the Tories will probably just supply considerable amusement value.

  • Now the Northern polity is in real trouble. See what Fianna Fáil, which decommissioned its guns etc back in the 1930s but has held on its most dangerous weapons, cutehoorism and incompetence, have done to the Republic.
    I can see the posters now: A vote for FF is a vote for the IMF.

    Seriously, FF is a dangerous political party and voting for it should carry a political health warning. Sure, the politicians in the north are not without their faults, and I believe strongly in an all Ireland polity, but this is dangerous. Apparently FF and the DUP have a lot in common in the expenses department, but I wouldn’t wish FF, especially in their current state, on my worst enemy.

  • Chris Donnelly

    Sammy

    I couldn’t disagree more. A plurality of relevant, mainstream voices in favour of Irish unity is infinitely preferable to a scenario in which all the eggs are in one basket- indeed, unionist calls for a single political party are quite heartening as they signify a failure to grasp that fact.

    Republicans have nothing to fear and everyhting to gain from a Fianna Fail move north. In fact, Fianna Failers are likely to realise that votes won’t come without a price ‘up here.’

    As I’ve pointed out above, the rhetorical republicanism of Dev’s Legion of the Rearguard boys won’t cut it in the electoral heartlands where Fianna Fail will be chasing votes.

    Instead, they’ll need to illustrate just how the arrival of the main political party on the island to the north- 80 years late, btw- is going to make a difference for those seeking Irish unity.

    Whilst they will be able to legitimately argue that they bring the credibility attached to running a ‘real’ government for generations- and with experience of developing and delivering on policies, they’ll also need to deliver on a united Ireland agenda.

    In the short term, there are a number of areas which Fianna Fail would be pressed to support- and deliver on- northern representation in the Oireachtas, northerners participating in Presidential elections- but thereafter it’s likely that the type of harmonising of policies on a north-south basis will be worked on.

    All for the good, as it’ll provide Sinn Fein and the SDLP- if the latter survive- with the necessary kick up the ass to work on their own proposals to counter Fianna Fail’s arrival.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Chris,

    re. “All for the good, as it’ll provide Sinn Fein and the SDLP- if the latter survive- with the necessary kick up the ass to work on their own proposals to counter Fianna Fail’s arrival. ”

    This is a bit of a circular arguement you want FF to come so as to give SF a kick up the arse which will then obviously lead to less votes for FF and more for SF.

    The idea that a divided Unionism is not good for Nationalism is a strange one – most Nationalists will welcome a SF first minister and the possibility of more seats in Stormo and more seats to ignore in Westminster.

    Regarding Dail representation – you might have a point there but they would presumably only run with that if they were successful in the North and given they are on the verge of irrelavance in the South then they will probably have nothing to offer Northerners except their usual tired old ‘Republican’ rhetoric/jibber jabber.

    FF – Tá ár lá imithe

  • latcheeco

    Chris,
    I doubt other party stategists share your enthusiasm, however much many members might relish a home fixture SF v.FF.

    If the FlyFellas do this properly and aren’t just the SDLP repackaged and are a big tent, then the stoops won’t be the only party which is hurt.

    The best thing can happen for Sinn Fein would be for FF to be associated with and seen as the stoops (who, as TK ironically admits above are already a failing brand past their sell-by date). I don’t think they’re dumb enough to become the new Semi-Detached Doctors, Lawyers, and Pedagogues party though.

    As Mick alluded to above, FF (branded as Dev’s party) running in elections in 2016 could be a heady brew for many.

    WB is fairly unassailable but I don’t see where else would be. Much of the SF vote is a recent post-ceasefire nationalist, as opposed to republican, vote anyway and could be easily lost to a viable alternative.

    The brown envelope argument isn’t strong enough to stop them because the demographic they’re after is less comfortable with SF’s skeletons (excuse the pun).

    Nationalists are generally catholic conservative and we both know many would love to vote for the sitting government of Ireland.

    If the stoops don’t get out of their way then the nationalist vote is initially split three ways (four ways if you count the two taigs who vote for Alliance :). This is good for unionism but the absurdity of (to them) a foreign government in power in the North must make them uncomfortable and for nationalists make partition even more untenable. I mean, theoretically, they could end up as the first party in govt. north and south (which would present obvious problems for the Britis/unionists) and effectively steal G’s strategy right from under his baird.

  • John East Belfast

    Chris

    “Ireland is not the only country with different jurisdictions- the US has 50 of them, each with state governments, and many others Nations exist along similar lines.”

    In the US State Corporation Tax is rarely above 5% and usually reduced to at most half that via various tax credits. Income taxes are even less.

    The major tax tax in the US – and indeed any country you hint at – are Federal Taxes.

    The bottom line is you will have FF Ministers in Dublin implementing increased Federal Taxes in the 26 counties whilst at the same time having FF politicians lobbying for business to go to another fiscal jurisdiction.

    Infact if another Microsoft was considering Belfast or Dublin would FF be neutral on whether those resulatant Corporate and Income taxes go to Dublin or London ?

    Come off it ?

    In other words I wouldnt be happy with a FF politician representing my interests within the 6 Counties in a straight fight with a 26 v 6 county piece of FDI.

    Infact it is a massive conflict of interest and is another reason why any vote for FF north of the border should come with a health warning as alluded to by Concubhar above

  • latcheeco

    JEB,
    Relax. I doubt any major corporation of consequence, except HMG, will ever seriously invest in the North until partition ends. You’re raising your blood pressure for nothing :).

  • Mack

    JEB –

    Excellent points. But, correct me if I’m wrong here, did the deal onto IFSC expansion into Belfast trade jobs in Belfast for taxes paid to Dublin?

  • slug

    If this hastens a non-nationalist labour option then I am all for it.

  • Mack

    ’twas Sammy –

    I can’t see FF or FG pushing for a United Ireland when it involves introducing an overwhelmingly left-leaning nationalist population that would most likely shore up their opponents in Labour along with a recalcitrant Unionist population that won’t vote for them anyway. On the other hand if deepening ties with the north means more FF seats, then (in the long term) they are going to have a strong interest in it..

    There is a gap in the market for a centre-right nationalist party in the north anyhow. I agree with Coll Ciotach that this is more likely a vote maximiser that will attract centre-right stay at home voters who are currently turned-off by the likes of UCUNF..

  • Mack

    To clarify..

    I can’t see FF or FG pushing for a United Ireland when as long as it involves introducing an overwhelmingly left-leaning nationalist population

  • DC

    I think SF can take on FF and win (locally in NI) given the current economic and political climate throughout the globe and in particular the housing bubbles of britain, Ireland and the States.

    FF messed it up and spent taxes off the back of faulty credit markets which has made the celtic tiger, an image of pride throughout Ireland, look like a cheap trick of the imagination.

    FF is bound to take such a hammering as will New Labour, as both countries are now running such a heavy deficit. And when the minuses outweigh the pluses people make their minds up quite easily as to which way to vote!

    FF deserve to be finished for a decade and with the patriotic stuff being spewed out SF can fire it back in strong nationalist areas in the ‘north’ and win, in my view.

    As mentioned above anything in terms of religion, conservatism and strands of nationalism is *extremely* well catered for in Northern Ireland.

    It will require something different entirely to churn things up and speed up the pace of politics here, something totally different.

  • In other words I wouldnt be happy with a FF politician representing my interests within the 6 Counties in a straight fight with a 26 v 6 county piece of FDI.

    On that reasoning, you wouldn’t be happy with the same political party representing the interests of both Belfast and Newry?

  • Driftwood

    The introduction of the Conservatives is good for NI (Unionism anyway) if only because it has a secular and non-parochial agenda. FF could do the same for Nationalists. though the recent blasphemy law intro in the Republic is a minus. In the absence of Richard Dawkins starting a political party, we badly need to demolish the dreary steeples.
    Cameron has offered Unionism a lifeline to the British mainland, where it is not held in high esteem, and Northern Nationalism does not seem to be fervently supported down South.

    Would FF take their seats in Westminster, if elected? That’s a biggie…

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Driftwood,

    and slightly after FF decide on that will the Tories decide to take their seats* in the Dail, they should sit snugly in on the FG benches.

    *of course there is as much chance of the Tories winning a seat, having already reduced the UU to zero seats, as there is of FF getting someone elected.

  • fin

    in a united Ireland on current vote share what would the makeup of the Dail be. Is this whats on FF’s mind

  • John East Belfast

    Mack

    “did the deal onto IFSC expansion into Belfast trade jobs in Belfast for taxes paid to Dublin?”

    I hope not.
    There were/are a lot of rumours going around about ROI Corporates being able to avail of NI cheaper labour and lower rent costs whilst paying their Corporate Taxes to Dublin – but nothing ever was confirmed and I think it died a death along with the lower Corporation Tax debate.

    Andrew

    “On that reasoning, you wouldn’t be happy with the same political party representing the interests of both Belfast and Newry?”

    It is not the same thing at all. Introducing a different State’s Fiscal and Sovereign jurisdiction as variables takes it to a totally different level.

  • slug

    FF will not take seats in Westminster – either the New Elected Upper House or to the Commons. The SDLP therefore have a future.

  • Driftwood

    Sammy
    Surely George Osborne deserves his place in the Republic’s senate
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Osborne

    The (non-sectarian) Conservative and Unionist party will take East Belfast, East Antrim, South Antrim, Strangford and North Down at the very least. The DUP have been shown to be medieval bigots and North Antrim will go to Allister due to their hypocrisy.
    South Down is an enigma because many unionists will vote for McGrady, as will any nationalist with an IQ in double figures (which is more than Ruane’s). Always best to check out Paddy Power on these matters.
    Anyway, A Tory government here and FG in power down South is ok by me.

  • Coll Ciotach

    The SDLP are welcome to their future in Westminster.

    JEB – you are correct – FF will be taking things to a new level. This will cause more problems for divisionists than nationalists.

    I for one have considered the possibility of allowing businesses from all over Ireland to register in Dublin enabling them to avail of lower corporation taxes. This side steps Londons intransigence on this issue.

    This is an example of what may be achievable. The need to economically balance both sides of the border is obvious. The present situation favours no one. What it actually does is create false booms and busts which hamper, not help, the economic stability of local economies on both sides. In fact – like a territory continuously fought over – it becomes an economic wasteland.

  • borderline

    If I were a unionist I would be rejoicing at this news. You are going to have the likes of Coll Ciotach as your opponents, thinking that “businesses” can “register” in Dublin, thereby at a stroke bypassing British laws, and “sidestepping” British intransigence.

    FF are a bunch of deeply unfashionable rural elderly male politicians, with cumainn riddled with publicans, local arseholes who fancy themselves as movers and shakers, small-time chancers and property developers.

    As for Coll Ciotach’s remark that

    “They can and will attract membership and votes from everywhere”, I will remind him that they will be lucky to attract votes from ANYWHERE down south next time out, the corrupt grubby farts.

    Northern nationalists can do better than this.

  • John East Belfast

    Coll

    “The present situation favours no one. What it actually does is create false booms and busts which hamper, not help, the economic stability of local economies on both sides”

    Are you now saying that Partition was the cause of the Celtic Tiger boom & bust ?

    “I for one have considered the possibility of allowing businesses from all over Ireland to register in Dublin enabling them to avail of lower corporation taxes”

    There is nothing stopping any business registering in Dublin but unless you earn your profits in that jurisdiction you wont be paying your tax there – that is international tax law.

  • Coll Ciotach

    JEB

    I thought that I was quite obviously talking about the border area. The differing economic and tax regimes create local conditions which create an economic micro climate around the border.

    I am well aware of international law but London and Dublin have moved on this before as previously discussed

  • barnshee

    “I for one have considered the possibility of allowing businesses from all over Ireland to register in Dublin ”

    Er this is already fact C&C existed prior to partition are registered in Dublin and trade (very successfully) in NI. They do have to cope with UK vat etc.

    The corporation tax issue is a chimera
    Profits can be moved (via transfer pricing and eg management charges) at will.

    The only companies who pay corporation tax are smallish local ones with no access to the above scams.

    The biggies Dell etc , come because eg sticking a CPU into a computer (wholly manufactured elsewhere) gives the product EC status.

    Such ststus is available now in Romania at a fraction of the cost —QED

    The sheer lack of basic knowledge on this site continues to astound me.

  • John East Belfast

    Coll

    “I thought that I was quite obviously talking about the border area. The differing economic and tax regimes create local conditions which create an economic micro climate around the border”

    And how many land borders are there in Europe ….?

    Do you think NI is going to give up its status within the economic powerhouse called the UK in return for joining up with the economic car crash called the ROI?

    Apart from fuel smugglers the border poses a problem for the ROI not NI. With increases in fuel taxes due in the ROI you will probably see fuel going the other way too

  • Coll Ciotach

    JEb

    I neither know nor care, what NI is going to give up is not in the gift of unionists.

    Your last sentence makes my point.

  • borderline

    CC,

    What the fuck is an “economic micro-climate”?

    Is it anything to do with a hot day in Slab’s shed?

  • Coll Ciotach

    Just trying to paint the effect of the border on local economies in an easily understood manner. obviously I have failed so I will try again for you since you are finding this difficult.

    let us look a petrol

    I can remember driving out of Dundalk 20 odd years ago and the petrol stations were lining the road up to the customs station.

    Then a shift occurred which made petrol cheaper to the north of the border. The stations on the south side closed and then it swung back.

    This is repeated across the economy, at present the growth of retail shopping in the North is providing boom for Newry for example. This will swing the other way sometime and the town will go into the doldrums. In the mantime the economy away from the border follows a less volatile cycle. H ence the term micro-climate to describe this effect.

    I trust you understand the anology now.

  • Banbridge-man

    I am a paid up UU member but will be affiliating myself with FF. They have always been a broad church and some of their members are very forward-thinking indeed. There is currently quiet a lot of talk regarding this in certain circles. I very much welcome it.

  • faz

    Will the SDLP expel Cllr Fitzpatrick for attending the event and supporting Fianna Fail. -Over to you Eddie and Maggie…..

  • Mack

    The biggies Dell etc , come because eg sticking a CPU into a computer (wholly manufactured elsewhere) gives the product EC status.

    True Barnshee. Dell don’t make CPUs, but Intel do make ’em in Ireland and Dell did put together components into PCs in Limerick for a while.

    I think your point does highlight that FF could be quite succssfull in attracting FDI – leveraging the south for accounting purposes (and built up skill base) and the north for it’s cheap skilled labour (where it exists).

  • borderline

    banbridge-man (if you are for real)

    apart from the colour scheme, you’ll find a lot in common between the UUP and FF.

    Ancient hasbeens without a clue as to how to cope with the future. Corrupted by being too long in power.

    Suggest you check your wallet more often at the FF meeting though.