Gerry Adams and Kieran Doherty, 29 July 1981

Writing on his blog, Gerry Adams relates an anecdote from his 29 July 1981 visit with Owen Carron to the hunger strikers in Long Kesh. This anecdote is sourced from his autobiography, Before the Dawn. It is important to put the account of this conversation into context, in order to fully appreciate its meaning. Firstly, Kieran Doherty’s condition was dire; he was nearly blind, had considerable difficulty hearing, and was demonstrably ‘delirious’, hallucinating and unaware of his surroundings. At this stage, when he was conversing with Adams, he was in no position to be making any strategic decisions. He was hardly fit to process any information about the negotiations with the British, had he been fully informed, being conducted on his behalf by Adams. As told by Adams, Kieran Doherty was blind and confused, despite being described as ‘firm’ on the five demands; he lost track of who was in the room with him, greeting Bik McFarlane only to ask not much later where Bik was, and to ask after the boys repeatedly, even after his questions had already been answered. Yet it seems today Adams is holding up this conversation as some sort of defense against the charge that the hunger strikers were sacrificed for Sinn Fein’s political gain.

What is really significant about this piece is that it shows the hunger strikers were unaware that they had already broken Thatcher. From at least early July and possibly before, if some accounts are to be believed, she was offering Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness four of the five demands and by the time Gerry Adams was sitting with Kieran Doherty, the offer from the British that Adams had been negotiating was what the prisoners got when the hunger strike ended in October.

Although already having won the concession of letters and parcels, only 10 days before the 29 July meeting with the hunger strikers Adams was still stalling the British, seeking clarification over what could be in the parcels. (“Association during leisure hours was not enough and in addition they would need specific assurances as to what they would be allowed to receive in parcels.” Beresford, Ten Men Dead, pg 325.) The hunger strikers’ commitment was used by Adams as leverage in the negotiations with the British, although by this point the hunger strikers, according to Pat McGeown, whom Bik McFarlane was striving mightily to keep in line and silenced, were more committed to each other and those who had preceded them in death than they were tied down to the details of the five demands. “When Gerry was in I didn’t say anything to him,” [McGeown] says. “Bik had already said to me, ‘Don’t make your opinions known,’ to which I had given my commitment. I just accepted [the situation].” (O’Malley, Biting at the Grave, pg 83.)

To Brownie from Bik Sun 26.7.81
“…had a long yarn with Pat Beag [McGeown] this morning and impressed upon him the necessity of keeping firmly on the line. I explained that independent thought was sound, but once it began to stray from our well considered and accepted line that it became extremely dangerous. He accepted what I said alright. Also I stressed the need for all of us to have confidence in you lot.” (Comm quoted in Beresford, Ten Men Dead, pg 333.)

By August, after having had the visit from Adams and Carron, McGeown and Devine were discussing coming off the strike; neither wanted to be seen as saving himself but both recognised the futility of carrying on – except for one strategic gain: the election of Owen Carron. “I [McGeown] said to him [Devine], ‘Hold out for ten days. After the Fermanagh-South Tyrone by-election, I don’t see any political point in us continuing the hunger strike and I’ll be saying that quite openly.’ To say to him [Devine] to come off it before it [the by-election], politically I did think we needed to stay until the whole process had been completed with Owen Carron.” (O’Malley, Biting at the Grave, pg 84.) Devine died the day of the election; he was the last hunger striker to die.


An Bean Uasal from Bik 28.7.81
“…Was up in hospital tonight. […] Doc was able to talk, but became delirious and told me he was ‘talking to Bik earlier on and had a yarn with Bobby’. He’s practically blind and has great difficulty in hearing. His spirit is strong and he is very determined.” (Comm quoted in Beresford, Ten Men Dead, pg 338.)


Gerry Adams, Leargas blog:

I thought of the last time I saw Kieran. In the prison hospital in the H Blocks of Long Kesh. By this time he was the TD for Cavan Monaghan. It was the 29 July 1981. Kieran died on August 2.

‘I’m not a criminal.’ He said
.
‘For too long our people have been broken. The Free Staters, the church, the SDLP. We won’t be broken. We’ll get our five demands. If I’m dead … well, the others will have them. I don’t want to die, but that’s up to the Brits. They think they can break us. Well they can’t.’ He grinned self-consciously: Tiocfaidh ar lá.’

We shook hands before I left, an old internee’s hand-shake, firm and strong.

‘Thanks for coming in, I’m glad we had that wee yarn. Tell everyone, all the lads, I was asking for them and … ‘ He continued to grip my hand.

‘Don’t worry, we’ll get our five demands. We’ll break Thatcher. Lean ar aghaidh.

Talking later to Kieran’s father Alfie, his eyes brimming with unshed tears, in the quiet cells in the H-Blocks of Long Kesh, I felt a raw hatred for the injustice which created this crisis.

I am glad to say that I still feel the same today 28 years after Kieran’s death.

Gerry Adams, Before the Dawn, pages 308-310:

“Brendan [McFarlane] arranged for us to go and see Kieran Doherty. I told the lads that I wouldn’t tell Doc of their position.
‘He knows it anyway,’ someone said.
‘We saw him last night after Father Crilly’s visit.’
‘I know,’ said I.
Doc was propped up on one elbow; his eyes, unseeing, scanned the cell as he heard us entering.
‘Mise atá ann,’ (‘It’s me’) said Brendan McFarlane.
‘Ahh Bik, cad é mar atá tú?’ arsa Doc. (‘Ahh Bik, how are you?’ Doc said.)
‘Nílim romh dhona, agus tú féin?‘ (‘I’m not too bad, and yourself?’)
Tá mé go hiontach; tá daoine eile anseo? Cé…?‘ (‘I’m great; are there other people here? Who…?’)
Tá Gerry Adams, Owen Carron agus Seamus Ruddy anseo. Teastaíonn uatha caint leat.‘ (‘Gerry Adams, Owen Carron, and Seamus Ruddy are here. They want to speak with you.’)
Gerry A’, fáilte.‘ (‘Gerry A’, welcome.’) He greeted us all, his eyes following our voices. We crowded around the bed, the cell much too small for four visitors. I sat on the side of the bed. Doc, whom I hadn’t seen in years, looked massive in his gauntness, as his eyes, fierce in their quiet defiance, scanned my face.
I spoke to him quietly and slowly, somewhat awed by the man’s dignity and by the enormity of our mission.
He responded to my probing with paitence.
‘You know the score yourself,’ he said, ‘I’ve a week in me yet. How is Kevin [Lynch] holding out?’
‘You’ll both be dead soon. I can go out now, Doc and announce that it’s over.’
He paused momentarily and reflected, then: ‘We haven’t got our five demands and that’s the only way I’m coming off. Too much suffered for too long, too many good men dead. Thatcher can’t break us. Lean ar aghaidh. I’m not a criminal.’
I continued with my probing. Doc responded.
‘For too long our people have been broken. The Free Staters, the church, the SDLP. We won’t be broken. We’ll get our five demands. If I’m dead…well, the others will have them. I don’t want to die, but that’s up to the Brits. They think they can break us. Well they can’t.’ He grinned self-consciously. ‘Tiocfaidh ár lá.‘ (‘Our day will come.’)
‘How are you all keeping? I’m glad you came in. I can only see blurred shapes. I’m glad to be with friends. Cá bhfuil Bik? (Where is Bik?) Bik, stay staunch. How’s the boys doing?’
We talked quietly for a few minutes. Owen got another ribbing about the election. We got up to go. I told Doc to get the screw to give us a shout if he wanted anything.
We shook hands, an old internee’s handshake, firm and strong.
‘Thanks for coming in, I’m glad we had that wee yarn. Tell everyone, all the lads, I was asking for them and…’ He continued to grip my hand.
‘Don’t worry, we’ll get our five demands. We’ll break Thatcher. Lean ar aghaidh.’
Outside Doc’s cell, the screw led us in to speak to Kieran’s father, Alfie, and brother, Michael, who had just arrived to relieve Kieran’s mother.
We spoke for about five minutes. I felt an immense solidarity with the Doherty family, broken-hearted, like all the families, as they watched Kieran die. Yet because they understood their son, they were prepared to accept his wishes and were completely committed to the five demands for which he was fasting.
Talking to Alfie, his eyes brimming with unshed tears, in the quiet cells in the H-Blocks of Long Kesh, I felt a raw hatred for the injustice that created this crisis. Alfie, concerned for us, had a quiet word with Bik McFarlane and left to sit with Kieran.”

Note: Kieran Doherty died 4 days later.

Earlier on Slugger:

Prolonging the Hunger Strike: The Derailing of the ICJP

Updated Timeline and Upcoming Discussion Brian Rowan and Brendan Duddy to speak at Feile

Gulladuff: More Heat Than Light Gerry Adams meets with some of the families of some of the hunger strikers.

Gerry Adams to meet Hunger Strikers Families; Inquiry Sought Families of the hunger strikers call for a public inquiry; Adams arranges meeting

“This is a huge opportunity and I feel there’s a potential here to end this” Bik McFarlane miraculously recovers his memory and completely backtracks on every denial he had made previously, while also making up new, contradictory details never before mentioned

“I will not be attending and will not send a representative” Gerry Adams refuses to attend public meeting about the hunger strikes; extremely revealing discussion in the comments section

1981 Hunger Strike Truth Commission Includes text of British document of July offer and transcript of Willie Gallagher’s speech at the Derry meeting

The Truth is a Heartbreaking Thing Initial summary of Derry meeting

Upcoming Debate: “What is the Truth Behind the Hunger Strike?” Announcement of public meeting and note of Radio Foyle debate between Raymond McCartney and Richard O’Rawe (also discussed on The Pensive Quill: A Shifting Narrative)

When in a hole… Contrasts between Danny Morrison’s position and previously published accounts of the time

What were the hunger strikers told? Questions emerge that cast doubt on what the hunger strikers knew when about what negotiations were being conducted on their behalf by the Adams subcommittee.

“Let’s have the whole truth” – Danny Morrison and Richard O’Rawe statements

Did Thatcher Kill All 10 or Only 4? – contains statements and interview excerpts

  • the joxer

    Read all abaht it! This week’s shock horror expose on the Hunger Strike from ‘Rusty Nail’!

    On a different note, Rusty Nail will next week have another new shock horror expose on the Hunger Strike.

  • Rory Carr

    Rusty, you missed the part where Gerry Adams*quietly pressed a pillow upon the hunger striker’s** face and pressed down while emitting an eerie chuckle and hoarsely whispering, “Die! Die so that my dreams of supreme power may be fulfilled. Heh-heh-heh!”

    ** The part of Gerry Adams was played by the late Boris Karloff and the hunger striker** was played by Leonardo di Caprio.

    This has been a Rusty Nail horror movie from Youcouldn’tmakeitup Productions released through Slugger Distribution

  • Ray

    Why did Mountain Climber refuse to talk about his knowledge of Gerry Adams and the hunger strike at the West Belfast Feile this week?
    He talked about everything else, but refused to discuss the hunger strike. Odd.

  • Jimmy Sands

    Adams is an evil bastard. You are officially the last person on earth to work this out.

  • Dave

    “Adams is an evil bastard. You are officially the last person on earth to work this out.”

    I’d say he’s one of a minority who now understand what a sociopath is, and that the Shinners are full of them. The rest of the muppets think the sun shines out of their…

    Unless, of course, they’re all prepared to admit that they freely elected sociopaths to politcal office – which I doubt.

  • J Kelly

    To slugger admin this type of nonsense only detraccts from this excellent site and puts people of posting altogeyher…

  • J Kelly

    a few typos but thr point stands

  • John O’Connell

    I’d say he’s one of a minority who now understand what a sociopath is, and that the Shinners are full of them.

    Adams is an evil bastard.

    We’re getting there. The Book of Revelation says the beast has seven heads and ten horns, and if related to Gerry Adams, the clear impression is that the seven heads would symbolise the seven man IRA army council (neutralised by John Hume) and the ten horns would be the hunger strikers.

    Adams has gained political power from using the army council and the hunger strikers. The question has to be asked: – did he do it for himself or for the movement?

    Who receives the proceeds of his books but he himself? Who uses the proceeds to fund a Donegal holiday home? It seems that he’s in it for everybody, especially himself.

    Now if I could get a numeric alphabet that ties him into the number of the beast. For if we could do that we would have the number, the heads, and the horns, not bad for a start.

  • Mark McGregor

    J Kelly,

    Really? I think Rusty has to be in the running for Blogger of the year myself for the work on documenting and informing the debate on what seems like an increasingly murky period.

    Can’t say I enjoy reading a word though, very difficult topic and it seems for many the reaction is fingers in the ears instead of debating an increasingly supported but challengable narrative.

  • John O’Connell

    Rusty

    Watch out for the American bloggers defending Gerry Adams for they may be CIA operatives interesed in keeping the peace process alive here, and Gerry Adams is seen as crucial to that process, in order to keep Middle East peace interests alive because apparently our process emphasises the importance of dialogue, which is crucial to the Middle East.

    These operatives can be very vociferous and potentially dangerous.

  • abu nicola

    Just how evil can Adams get? Imagine the nerve of him to write a book and earn money from doing so. Whatever will the man get up to next?

  • Celebrank

    Why do many republicans shy away from this topic and simply go for a default setting that is akin to stopping their ears and humming ‘la, la, la’ as loudly as they can?

    Also why the elevation of these ten deaths “for Ireland” over the many hundreds who were killed without having the choice to live that the convicts had?

  • cynic

    “slugger admin this type of nonsense only detraccts from this excellent site and puts people of posting altogeyher…”

    …. no….. ……no more …stop …i cannot stand to have my dreams shattered

    ” He talked about everything else, but refused to discuss the hunger strike. Odd”

    I am sure there is a rational explanation

  • dunreavynomore

    I’ve said it before and probably will again, we should not be afraid to explore the full story, indeed we are duty bound to do so and to find the truth whatever way it lies. Like Mark, I don’t find it enjoyable, but I am interested in the full truth.

  • Dave

    John, I have a lot of respect for Christianity as a force for good in the world but I’m not sufficiently knowledgeable about it to comment on what clues it gives to the identity of the Antichrist.

    When people are engaged in the commission of a multiplicity of crimes over a long period of time, the odds must be that their will sufficient evidence of their involvement in one or more crimes to prosecute them. When that happens, it presents the intelligence agencies with an opportunity to turn that person by presenting them with a choice of either co-operating with the agency or spending a very long period of time in prison. With sociopaths, they will always choose whichever option best serves their self-interest, and spending a long period in jail in not in anyone’s self-interest. So, the odds are that most of the old trouts are old touts. It’s not always case that they had a change or heart or were bribed. 😉

  • J Kelly

    I wasn’t referring to the topic but thes nonsense from Jimmy Sands and JC sorry I meant JoC.

    On the wider topic the truth like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Those who believe that Thatcher killed the Hunger Strikers for revenge or those who listen to the likes of Richard o Rawe, Liam Clarke or Willie Gallagher will always believe what they want.

    Mark on the matter of blogger of the year when will Rusty give the mjority hunger strikers families the same respect as he gives to others. Rusty for blogger of the year if he gave all sides a fair run. Oliver Hughes, Donnacha MacNiallias and others have wrote on this topic but because it doesn’t fit in with Rusty’s view it doesn’t get coverage.

  • Adams is a liar, a cheat and a fraud!
    http://kennedycartoons.com

  • 6countyprod

    Sure, as long as ther fighting among themselves, ther leaving the rest of us alone, i says. Leave em to it!

  • [i]ho receives the proceeds of his books but he himself?[/i]

    John, who receives the proceeds of your books? How many copies have you managed to sell?

    Best,

    Lincoln V. Scheuermann

  • John O’Connell

    John, who receives the proceeds of your books?

    Me, but I didn’t earn the proceeds on the back of the struggle that others engaged in which involved killing others and endangering the immortal souls of those who partook.

    I am my own man.

  • [i]I didn’t earn the proceeds on the back of the struggle that others engaged in which involved killing others and endangering the immortal souls of those who partook.[/i]

    No, you just earned your alleged proceeds by describing a man as the Antichrist, based on a numeric alphabet that you designed yourself, as well as other bizarre, archaic superstitions, and unilaterally declaring yourself to be the Son of God.

    Anyways, how many copies have you managed to sell and what is the Catholic Church’s position with regard to your work and claims?

    Best,

    Lincoln V. Scheuermann

  • Glensman

    There seems to be a problem on this site with posters attacking the bloggers on various topics- if you don’t want to read Rusty’s threads- then don’t!

    This was a constant problem when Mark was blogging as well, if anything I think we should have many more threads on Slugger rather than everyone talking about a different topic on the one.

    BTW: Mark’s right, Rusty is one of the best bloggers on here, Turgon is very comprehensive and well thought out too.

  • Ray

    “…Rusty for blogger of the year if he gave all sides a fair run. Oliver Hughes, Donnacha MacNiallias and others have wrote on this topic but because it doesn’t fit in with Rusty’s view it doesn’t get coverage…”

    One of those mentioned above played a prominent role in the destruction of Irish secondary medium education in Derry City.
    Independent Irish medium education does not fit in with the party doctrine of total control and power for the self-annointed ones.
    Their views on the hunger strikes are similiarly tainted by the party line.

  • John O’Connell

    Anyways, how many copies have you managed to sell and what is the Catholic Church’s position with regard to your work and claims?

    You need to ask my publisher, Oak Grove Books, and we’re working on the Catholic Church. It took them over fifty years to recognise Knock. At the moment they’re struggling with Medjugorje and give them a few dozen years they’re likely to have at least read my books. But in the end the truth is the truth and Gerry Adams will prove himself to be a disciple of whatever antigod he chooses.

    But it would be a mistake to conclude that the Catholic Church is not reviewing the Adams situation as I write and as you read.

  • Dawson Renterfield

    [No sock-puppets – edited moderator]

  • Mary

    John I think that you’re fantastic. Have you ever thought of joining the priesthood? We really could be doing with more outstanding young men like you in the ranks during these troubling times.

  • Dixie

    Donnacha MacNiallias and others have wrote on this topic but because it doesn’t fit in with Rusty’s view it doesn’t get coverage.
    J Kelly.

    Oh Donncha got coverage alright in the Derry Journal and he did a lousy job in that he made up things that were easily torn apart, it was obvious when the plug was pulled on him by the powers that be…Even Martina tried to shame us using the graves of our fallen Volunteers as cover and of course she pulled her horns in when challenged.
    The fact is that the Adamsites have no answers because there is only the truth and they don’t know the meaning of the word.

    Of course I’m sure that Adams like the rest of us is wondering what damning stories the Dark has left on tape which will be out in book form according to reports to be released on his anniversary by that ‘dissident’ journalist Ed Maloney. So far it is called ‘Voices from beyond the Grave.’

  • ‘Voices from beyond the Grave.’ is a book I’m very much looking forward too!
    http://kennedycartoons.com

  • Kathy C

    posted by Kathy C

    recently gerry adams recounted an event in a jail that had the IRA prisoners singing a song that lifted their sinking spirits. It read well but it turned out to be a big lie. The song that gerry said was sung was not even written at the time.
    Now we have another recounting by adams…. this time about Kieran Doherty who was dying a cruel death by starvation. ..did it occur as gerry stated in his story or is this also lie. Gerry has used up his credibility.
    My thoughts and prayers are with the Doherty family.

  • cynic

    I really downt undersatnd Republican Psychology on this.

    You have a set of core political beliefs that are generally logical and sustainable and totally legitimate – unassailable. So have confidnce in those.

    But along the way one of your main parties has crafted around those a series of lies and misrepresentations to justify its position and cement its control of your vote. These have varied over time but have included

    1 its about ‘Brits Out’ – now quietly dropped becasue the Brits live here and they are in Government with them

    2 the Irish Goverenment is illegitimate – dropped and took up seats in Dail Eireann

    3 its about Socialism – no-one wants socialsm now. Its discredited and has been quietly dropped

    4 were Nationalists and anti-Europe – whoops, now we are not because voters dont want us to be and jobs are at stake

    5 the Hunger Strikers were saints who died becausue of Thatcher’s intransigence

    Now, when it seems that the latter myth is falling apart and there is clear evidence building up that Thatcher wasnt that intransigent but that the deals on offer werent put to the men on time, the attitude within the Republican community is total utter denial. A refusal to even contemplate that there may be a different truth and that they were misled.

    Why?

    This is not an issue that is being pushed by Unionists. They are sharing power with SF and happy (within limits) to see them there in Government. For them the Hunger Strike is history and their only real interst is stopping the shrine at the Maze to those they regard as murderers and child killers

    This all comes from within the Republican community itself – sometimes from those who were there and who know. Former comrades who are aghast.

    So why are Republicans unwilling to dispassionately look at the evidence? And why do so many on this site just give a knee jerk reaction in support of Sinn Fein

  • John O’Connell

    No, you just earned your alleged proceeds by describing a man as the Antichrist, based on a numeric alphabet that you designed yourself, as well as other bizarre, archaic superstitions, and unilaterally declaring yourself to be the Son of God.

    The evidence points to Gerry Adams being the Antichrist. I cannot help that. My involvement in this comes from an experience I had of a spiritual nature in Galway in 1986 when I was moved to calculate the name of Gerry Adams at 666, after being aware that Ian Paisley’s name did likewise from earlier.

    I didn’t design the alphabet myself (but it is based on the number 6 as it should be). It was demonstrated to me by another student at St Columb’s College, Derry, who’s political affiliations were Alliance but who has since begun to support Sinn Fein, ignorant of the Gerry Adams half of the equation and despite being given a serious kicking by an IRA prisoner out on release after the GFA. He still believes Ian Paisley is the beast (so far as I am aware).

    other bizarre, archaic superstitions

    For example? What about this one which is really the fulfillment of prophecy.

    Gerry Adams fulfilled another prophecy during the run-up to the 2007 Assembly election campaign in the North of Ireland. This involved him requesting the use of Clonard Monastery (Roman Catholic) church in West Belfast for a political meeting discussing his party’s policy. He still believed that armed struggle was a legitimate means of resolving differences.

    When Gerry Adams took to the altar of Clonard monastery while his beliefs were in conflict with Christ’s teaching, he was proclaiming himself to be wiser than God and better than Jesus Christ. He was in logic proclaiming himself to be God.

    “[The man of lawlessness or the Antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshipped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.” (2 Thes 2:3-4)

  • John O’Connell

    Cont’d

    Second of all, due to another pertinent coincidence his name contains “Adam”, the name of the first man, and from a theological point of view, this adds much to the basis of him being the Antichrist. Adam coincidentally means ‘man’ in Hebrew, and the number of the beast is specifically described as “man’s number” (Rev 13:18).

    These are extraordinary coincidences and not to be dismissed by any means by any intelligent observer of matters theological.

    The apostle Paul wrote: “For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive” (1 Cor 15:22). Adam therefore symbolises death, and thus the question must be asked, is there significance to the ‘Adam’ in Gerry Adams’ name? Does Gerry Adams, the effective leader of the IRA’s republican movement, symbolise death?

    The descriptions of the beasts in the Book of Revelation are interesting.

    ‘The inhabitants worshipped the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed,’ (Rev 13:12). Coincidentally, Gerry Adams was shot and wounded in 1984, but recovered. Afterwards, he became Sinn Fein president and one of the foremost politicians in Northern Ireland. The use of violence for him is a matter of tactics. That is a matter of fact and record. Gerry Adams has not stepped away from violence. He believes in his own words that “there is a time for peace and a time for war”, mocking the Prince of Peace and equating Christ with the Antichrist, good with evil.

    The first beast, who is said to be the Antichrist, is prophesied to have “seven heads” (Rev 13:1), which is coincidentally the number of heads on the IRA army council, including Gerry Adams’ allegedly, and ten horns (Rev 13:1), which is coincidentally the number of hunger strikers who eased his way into politics. The seven heads and ten horns symbolise his political power which coincidentally he has got on the back of the IRA campaign and the hunger strikes.

    “Who can make war against him?” (Rev 13:7). The IRA has been described as ‘the most sophisticated terrorist organisation in the history of mankind’. Their structure makes it impossible for a conventional army to defeat them.

    I hope you’ll conclude my little friend that I am but the messenger when it comes to Gerry Adams, but that I am much more than that in reality.

  • John O’Connell

    Cont’d

    But it will not be long until it is over for Adams according to my interpretations of Revelation:-

    “Interpreting the next verses gives a timescale for the fulfilment of the prophecies. “The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings,” (Rev 17:9). The seven hills symbolise Rome, built on seven hills, so the author of Revelation is attacking the Roman Empire. The comparable empire in our context and era is the British Empire and the city comparable to Rome is London. So the seven kings come from London.

    “Those kings are described as “Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come” (Rev 17:10). Coincidentally during the Troubles, the Troubles being the key timeframe, five London PMs have fallen: Wilson, Heath, Callaghan, Thatcher, and Major. “One is,” or the sixth PM, must refer to Tony Blair under whom much of the changes to the North took place. The other who has not yet come is remarked: “…but when he does come he must remain for a little while” (Rev 17:10). I think that this must refer to Gordon Brown who won’t be expected to be PM for long by this account.

    “The fact that Blair is referred to as “one is” demonstrates that the major prophecies occur under his rule while he “is”, and also while the Antichrist “is not” (see above), which happens at the same time. But the whole sequence of verses, ante-ceded with the proviso, “This calls for a mind with wisdom,” (Rev 17: 9), making them the most mysterious verses in the Book of Revelation, also signals that the whole framework will have outworked itself by the time of the seventh king, “who has not yet come, but when he does come he must remain for a little while”.

    So when Gordon Brown, the seventh king, stops being PM, which won’t be long according to the prophecies, Ian Paisley and Gerry Adams will be disgraced and in turmoil, or “thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulphur” (Rev 19:20). The intriguing question is what happens under Gordon Brown that leads to this outcome.”

    So wasn’t I right about Ian Paisley going in turmoil and the subsequent collapse of the DUP vote under Gordon Brown? We have less than a year to wait to find out about Adams.

  • John O’Connell

    Cont’d

    My claim to be annointed in the eyes of God, which you denounce, is reasonably objective too. And it is based on Derry.

    Derry was important to me. It was the New Jerusalem so far as I was concerned. Coincidentally, it had the walled inner city, the most complete set of walls in Europe, and these walls were symbolic of the New Jerusalem’s walls in the Book of Revelation. It is quite a coincidence that Derry has these walls.

    Indeed the old Jerusalem had its walls, which the Romans had destroyed only to find that a new empire, based in a different part of the world, and in a different era, had built another beautiful fortress where the Lamb was to reside.

    Derry, the place of so much oppression over the last several hundred years, was the place where the 144,000 citizens, who had the name of the Lamb and his father written on their foreheads, were to reside.

    “Then I looked and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his father’s name written on their foreheads.” (Rev 14:1)

    Thus the Lamb was to have a name, and his father was to have a name, and in human terms this name would be significant for the 144,000 who lived in the New Jerusalem.

    I interpreted the phrase ‘written on their foreheads’ in a unique manner, but it was probably the only meaningful interpretation. To me, it meant that the name was to be so obvious that no-one could miss it. My name held special significance now that I realised that names were all-important.

    I had by coincidence the most famous surname in the history of Ireland, O’Connell, due to the efforts of the Liberator of Irish Catholics, Daniel O’Connell, and it was fitting that my name, the name of the Irish Christ, was to be coincidentally so. It was the most powerful name in the Irish historical sense, immersing the Irish Christ into the midst of Irish history and culture even further.

    But the Liberator coincidentally had a son called John O’Connell, and so in a sense I was the son of the Liberator, another way of saying the Son of God, the ultimate liberator.

    But my name was even more important in the context of Derry, the New Jerusalem. The walled city of Derry was situated in a peninsula called Inishowen, or in English, the island, as it formerly was, of John. So coincidentally I lived on the island of John.

    But the peninsula was situated in the ancient kingdom of Tyrconnell, meaning in Irish, ‘the land of Connell’. So coincidentally I also lived in the land of Connell.

    I was John O’Connell, John of the clan Connell, living on ‘the island of John in the land of Connell’, my name and my father’s name ‘written on their foreheads’ (Rev 14:1), or so obvious it couldn’t be missed. It was a monumental coincidence. I was the Lamb of God. I had no doubt about that.

  • the joxer

    Stop the whaffle and stick to the topic,John.

  • blinding

    I would suggest that the moderator should ban John o’ Connell.

    I doubt that many read his repetitive posts and he is just spamminy the site.
    I believe that he may be turning off other contributers as who wants to read the same thing over and over again.

  • John O’Connell

    Stop the whaffle

    This is a comprehensive answer to a reasonble question. I hope you’ll understand that it is necessary.

  • the boxer

    Bit rich coming from you Joxer. You look like a man who has run out of things to say. Rusty seems to have got the better of you lot. Not that I care one way or the other.

  • cynic

    With John this site is becoming like Castle Junction in Belfast on a Saturday morning circa 1972.

    All we need now is a set of sandwich boards with Bible verses on them and someone with a stall selling Unionist pamphlets and copies of ‘I was born under a Union Jack’ while an ‘Ulster’ Wolfhound looks balefully on.

    God that dates me!

  • the joxer

    I think that Rusty Nail has actually ran out of things to say.He regurgitates the same conspiracy theory on a weekly basis that is primarily driven by his detestation of Adams (fair enough) and plenty of wishful thinking. However he has no proof to prove his argument.
    Post#2 nicely sends up the paucity of his case. However ‘Rusty ‘ continues to peddle his myths against the clear wishes of the families of the dead men causing the families great angst and hurt.

  • As Sinn Fein fall

    Joxer, it would be nice if you actually had an original thought or opinion.
    Spout the party line over and over try thinking for yourself, if the party allow that?

  • dunreavynomore

    “Post#2 nicely sends up the paucity of his case. However ‘Rusty ’ continues to peddle his myths against the clear wishes of the families of the dead men causing the families great angst and hurt.” the joxer

    Post 2 simply serves to totally evade the issue and I seriously doubt that Rusty nail has any intention of hurting the families of the hunger strikers. It seems to me that rusty nail’s goal is to focus a light on all events surrounding that terrible time in our history, a time I remember only too well.

  • cynic

    “causing the families great angst and hurt”

    while I dont wish them any harm, frankly that this as nothing compared to the angst and hurt their dear departed caused while they were on this planet and if the allegations are true then they too have been cruelly hoaxed and exploited for many years. But that could never have happened. No. Surely not. No-one could have been that cynical

  • As Sinn Fein fall

    Following the posts “Rusty” stays focused on the issue of what did or may have happen in 1981.
    Why Sinn Fein do not address the issue in public one has to wonder what they are hiding.

    Joxer, try reading the articles with the blinkers off.

  • GGN

    “But the peninsula was situated in the ancient kingdom of Tyrconnell”

    Hate to go againist a God but of course Inishowen is not in Tyrconnell.

  • theboxer

    Joxer, looks to me as if Rusty is producing fresh ways of looking at this all the time. Stuff out there for years now can be reread in a new light. There is nothing wrong with that. The response is what puzzles me. Why is there nothing other than ‘shut up’? It would be a sad day for any understanding when families could have a veto. This all sounds like ‘shut up and accept the one true version.’

  • the joxer

    ‘Following the posts “Rusty” stays focused on the issue of what did or may have happen in 1981’

    You are right, ASF. Rusty does not know what happened as he has no proof for his version of events. For those of you with the blinkers off, where is Rusty’s evidence to substantiate his suspicions?
    Put up or shut up.

  • cynic

    Joxter

    “Put up or Shut up”

    A very SF attitude.

    Just who do you think you are to tell us what we can or cannot think or say or listen to? And why are you so defensive?

  • John O’Connell

    GGN

    Your answer:-

    http://www.jenforum.com/daugherty/messages/2686.html

    Hate to go againist a God but of course Inishowen is not in Tyrconnell.

    The usual cry is that Derry’s not in Inishowen or that Derry is not in Tyrconnell.

    But the fact is that in modern boundaries Derry is outside Tyrconnell and Inishowen. Derry lies on the ancient boundary of both Tyrconnell and Inishowen. Where I live in the city is traditionally regarded as Inishowen, and the walls lie in the old Tyrconnell.

    So the city is split between the ancient borders of Tyrconnell and Inishowen and I’ve simply simplified it.

  • the joxer

    ‘Just who do you think you are to tell us what we can or cannot think or say or listen to? And why are you so defensive?’

    Keep taking the Paranoid Pills, Cynic.

  • Arrrrrriiiibbbbaaaaaa

    John, it seems like you spent the entire morning here scowling people on Slugger. I think that there’s an important question here for you to address:

    have you gone to Mass this weekend son (of God)?

    Also, if and when you go to Mass, do you receive Communion? If you do, isn’t that just cannibalism and does it hurt whenever a priest turns bread into your body?

  • A Priest

    John

    I spoke to God this morning. He had some startling revelations. Indeed, he informs me that, contrary to your repeated assertions, that you are [b]not[/b] his son. In fact, he says he’s never heard of you.

  • RepublicanStones

    John, David Icke called, he said the mothership has broken down.

  • sinless

    Rusty:

    I looked at this topic with interest, epsecially when I saw there had been so many posts. Before I scrolled down to see who had pencilled it, I guessed it was you.

    What are you trying to do here. I was involved in that period. I was arrested many times and voted for Herr Sands many times. As the summer dragged on, in fact, even as the first four died, it was obvious there was no strategy.

    To say Adams etc used the hunger strikers is repeating old rope. Adams’ son, for example, never did a day and Adams didn’t do many either. Politicians always use others and with IRA stuff, the used often pay a big price.

    The IRSP/INLA are particularly important here. They paid big and got zip. SSo where does all this get us?

    That Adams is a kunt? I think so. Most Prods think so. And?

    BTW: kiss of death but Dave again makes the best points from the sundered brethern side.

    Instead of going on about the victims or whatever, try to penetrate the minds of the perpetrators/leaders – without calling them vacuous, old rope names.

  • This is a genuine question to those who claim Rusty Nail should shut up.

    How is writing or speaking about this controversy harming the families of the dead hunger strikers? Just because some members of the families says this does not make it so, for as someone has already posted they are just one of countless families who lost loved ones due to the war; and who sadly have had to learn to tolerate publicity and debate.

    The one certain thing about Rusty Nails blogs here is they do not denigrate any of the ten men. The hunger strikes were a massive event that had an impact way beyond the walls of that wretched prison or the shore of Ireland. Surly history demands we at least look at it with an inquiring mind.

    In truth I doubt any individuals long term reputation will be changed much by what we have learnt so far.

  • austin

    Rusty should re-title his weekly threads ‘Move along, no story here…’

  • sinless

    I see Seamas Ruddy visited Doherty. Any sign of his body yet?

    Also, I doubt Adams and Doherty exchanged a firm internee’s handshake when Doherty was literally on his death bed. And Adams speaks of his still burning hatred. Hatred of his paymasters?

  • cynic

    “Keep taking the Paranoid Pills, Cynic.”

    I am not the one desperate to close down any discussion. if you dont like what’s said post on another topic or another site.

    But on this issue you are starting to look desperate

  • John O’Connell

    RepublicanStones

    John, David Icke called, he said the mothership has broken down.

    I’m dealing in sacred texts coming forward from the first century that are meant to tell us something in particular circumstances and time period. Isn’t it time to accept that that time has come, the circumstances have arrived, and the time for jokes is long gone?

  • the joxer

    ‘if you dont like what’s said post on another topic or another site.’

    Now, now, cynic -remember your own advice from earlier-‘Just who do you think you are to tell us what we can or cannot think or say or listen to?’-lol

  • cynic

    Now Joxter… perhaps I was a little harsh but my point was clear.

    If we find opinions that we dont like then ignore them and look elsewhere or debate them. Dont however tell them to s top saying them just because you disagree, no matter how strongly

  • the joxer

    ‘Joxter?! s top saying them?’

    Stay off the sauce and get the head down, sin-ache.

  • Putting Up

    ”You are right, ASF. Rusty does not know what happened as he has no proof for his version of events. For those of you with the blinkers off, where is Rusty’s evidence to substantiate his suspicions?
    Put up or shut up.”

    Posted by the joxer on Aug 09, 2009 @ 01:05 PM

    You can find more than enough evidence at http://www.longkesh81.com that challenges the SF narrative quite comprehensively. I would suggest J Kelly should also explore that site although I suspect he is as much interested in the truth about this subject as he is about MI5/6 controlling the provisionals from the early 80s.

  • Neil

    I thought JOC had been warned off this behaviour already? At least a yellow no? I was interested, as always, to read about this subject, I’m not so sure that serious damage to Adams/SF is unlikely, if people come to accept that several men died for no reason other than the furtherance of GA’s career I could see a backlash coming for the party.

    But having decided to look into Rusty’s post (the last one was fascinating) you can imagine my delight to find the contents of JOC’s website reproduced here, for convenience.

    Every post the man makes is (at best and occasionally) designed to steer the conversation towards his theories, beliefs etc, and once he gets there the regular sluggerite gets to read yet again what he/she has read 100 fucking times before. It’s not the religious aspect (I respect religion, not practising much these days), or the plain crazy thing (cause that’s amusing in a good natured kind of way), it’s the repitition. Spamming is as good a word as any.

    Take a hint John, you refer often enough to your own site, and the address is right there under your name, and if that’s not enough why not stick it on the end of your posts (as you have done many times), then we adults can decide whether or not to read your crazy shit or not, and stop repetitively posting the same fucking thing over and over again. It’s the website equivalent of being doorstepped by mentally ill Jehova’s Witnesses. It’s not nice.

  • sinless

    Also: Adams gave Doherty a firm handshake (impossible from a dying man) as one ex internee to another. But Adams did not burn down his cages. Would a Judas kiss have been more appropriate?

  • John O’Connell

    Neil

    the regular sluggerite gets to read yet again what he/she has read 100 fucking times before

    religion is a reptitive business. Revelation is necessarily also repetitive.

    Take a hint John, you refer often enough to your own site, and the address is right there under your name,

    No its not. But thanks for the hint.

    And for your information, I haven’t been warned at all. So get a grip and stop trying to conceal your Sinn Fein paranoia.

  • RepublicanStones

    John did you ever watch Bill Maher’s ‘Religulous’?

  • John O’Connell

    RS

    I’ve just seen a trailer. One of the things that we’re about is getting rid of the killing for religion. If Bill Maher thinks that its good to laugh at this stuff then he’s deluded. It can be funny but it can also be objectively the servant of evil.

  • Frankly

    John, do you enjoy aligning yourself with the views of individuals like Willie Gallagher?

    Gallagher has said on many occassions that an attack on him is an attack on the Hunger Strikers’ families. It would then stand to reason that you guys are all in it together, a collaborative search to find out whether or not Adams is telling the truth. So, do you enjoy the company of the INLA/IRSP? And if so, how much?

  • John O’Connell

    Frankly

    We have a common enemy. That’s all. But the angels tell me that Adams shafted the hunger strikers, so I know with certainty that it will come out in the wash.

    Violence will be less of a currency when we have destroyed Adams.

  • Dixie

    Frankly my dear I don’t give a damn what name you post under, it’s the same ole nonsense anyway.

  • Put Up

    “Gallagher has said on many occassions that an attack on him is an attack on the Hunger Strikers’ families.”

    Really Frankly? Could you point out one of the occassions where he said this? You really do seem fixated over this guy. I suspect you actually masterbate over him.

  • austin

    ‘I suspect you actually masterbate over him.’

    Slugger O’Toole-Notes on Northern Iteland Politics and Culture.Talk about a good site going down the tubes.

  • Frankly

    [i]Really Frankly? Could you point out one of the occassions where he said this?[/i]

    Here you go, from [i]The Pensive Quill[/i], posted on 14 June 2009 by ‘Willie G’:

    “This can be evidenced as recently as the demonisation of myself(and by extension the O Hara and Devine families) on Slugger yesterday from posters claiming to be from Strabane but with IP addresses from Derry…. PSF cannot openly attack the two families so will focus on their representative.”

    Dixie and Willie seem to be quite fixated by the notion of IP addresses. In fact, Willie has also claimed, on another site, that he has “noticed a few posters [b]on slugger[/b], who were claiming to be from Strabane but [b]according to a mod from slugger[/b] has IP addresses from Derry…”

    Very interesting stuff.

    [i]I suspect you actually masterbate over him. [/i]

  • PutUp

    “This can be evidenced as recently as the demonisation of myself(and by extension the O Hara and Devine families)…”

    I have read that before, Frankly, In full and not out of context, but he only mentions two families, perhaps you could point to one of these other ”many” occassions where he refers to all the families that you have infered. Nothing like a bit of ole spin eh! The O Hara and Devine families have a cheek on them to align themselves to the IRSP. Perhaps you in all your righteousness should represent those two particular families and then maybe we’ll hear you debate the issues involved rather than your fixations under all your usernames.

  • Frankly

    [i]I have read that before, Frankly, In full and not out of context[/i]

    Good for you. My cut and paste job was not, however, taken out of context despite your repeated attempt at smear.

    [i]…perhaps you could point to one of these other ‘‘many” occassions where he refers to all the families that you have infered.[/i]

    Perhaps you could point to just one occassion where I referred to “all the families.”

    [i]Nothing like a bit of ole spin eh![/i]

    [i]The O Hara and Devine families have a cheek on them to align themselves to the IRSP.[/i]

    No they don’t. Their sons were in the INLA – it stands to reason that they’d have some sort association with the IRSP today

    [i]Perhaps you in all your righteousness should represent those two particular families and then maybe we’ll hear you debate the issues involved rather than your fixations under all your usernames. [/i]

    I’m having trouble actually deducting anything of worth within your contributions. If you’re not trying to slur me with your fixation with masterbation and Gallagher (a Freudian slip?) then you’re attributing comments made in my name or labelling me with certain traits which are patently false.

    “All your usernames”

    1. A lie and another baseless allegation on your part – maybe you could ask Dixie and Willie to trace my IP address and then get back to me.

    2. Have you heard of the time when the pot called the kettle black, “PutUp”? Brilliant irony.

  • PutUp

    “I’m having trouble actually deducting anything of worth within your contributions.”

    Touché!

  • Dixie

    Frankly your obvious attempts at posting under various names is all very Clouseau-esque, if you know what I mean? A false mustache and sunglasses sort of thing.
    An apt name for your future use, if I might suggest one, is Willie Watcher.

  • Frankly

    Dixie, your repeated attempts to claim that you can trace IP addresses are all very full of shite, if you know what I mean? Like a septic tank sort of a thing.
    An apt name for your future use, if I might suggest one, is Full of Shite.

    [i]An apt name for your future use, if I might suggest one, is Willie Watcher. [/i]

    By all accounts – including his own – I hear that the cops are doing a decent enough job at that.

  • Dixie

    Frankly, my dear chap thats not very nice now is it? Full of Shite indeed! Did I really bring on that outburst?

    Psst!…Frankly I hear the IRSP are smuggling cheap Nicorette patches from Spain for people trying to stay off those cheap fags from Spain…

  • Brian MacAodh

    Northern Ireland is a very special place indeed to have two anti-Christs at the same time (on different sides of a dirty war no less!), eh John?

    You’d think they show up in the countless other conflict taht have taken millions of live as opposed to one small one that has taken a few thousand. Maybe not

    John, how many people besides yourself recognize you as a the Son of God? I’m putting the over/under at 1.

  • John O’Connell

    Brian

    6.Northern Ireland is a very special place indeed to have two anti-Christs at the same time (on different sides of a dirty war no less!), eh John?

    You’d think they show up in the countless other conflict taht have taken millions of live as opposed to one small one that has taken a few thousand. Maybe not

    Christ came first to a small conflict.

    John, how many people besides yourself recognize you as a the Son of God? I’m putting the over/under at 1.

    The same number believe in me as believed in Jesus before he was crucified.

  • Neil

    Two points John. One, yes you were warned about consistently hijacking threads and directing them towards your pet psychosis. I will post the link sometime when I get round to it (I have to work for a living, we can’t all sit around dicking about with our six times tables trying to square the circle so that Gerry (and Ian funny enough can’t remember the bit about two anti christs in revelations – you should get your da to fix that) come out as satan mwuh hahaha.

    Two, my SF paranoia? Haven’t voted for them in years won’t be in the near future either, but that may not suit your SF paranoia.

    LOL ROFL fuck me take a look in the fucking mirror man. Straw poll everybody, who is suffering from a ‘SF paranoia’? As suggested by Jesus O’Connell the thread hijacking tit that thinks anyone gives a fiddlers fuck about his little numerical sequence and his daft theories. You are a laughing stock, and if anyone has a paranoia based around SF and Adams it’s gotta be you. Personally couldn’t give a fuck about SF one way or the other, but you John, you’re a hoot. Totally priceless. Cough *ballbeg*.

  • John O’Connell

    Neil

    Two points.

    I was never warned anywhere. I would have remembered.

    Two, angry are we? Shouldn’t go round insulting people. In any case, you are not the target audience for my posts. You’re just collateral damage.