PMS auditors to be investigated

The Accountancy & Actuarial Discipline Board (AADB) is to investigate the auditors of the illegally operating Presbyterian Mutual Society (PMS) – whose assets may well be affected by what happens with Nama. According to the BBC report, the accountancy firm Moore Stephens “has welcomed the inquiry and said they consider the move ‘routine’.” From the AADB statement

The scope of the investigation is as follows: “The conduct of Members and a Member Firm in relation to the alleged failure by Presbyterian Mutual Society Limited to obtain the appropriate regulatory authorisation for the conduct of its business during the period from 2000 to 2008.”

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  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Did they actually only take money from people of a certain religious persuasion? If so, I wonder are there any other examples of investment/savings organisations doing likewise?

    So its now being suggested that an organisation that arranged its affairs exclusively/mainly for one sub-section (of a section) of the Norn Iron population is being layed low because it got tempted into a property bubble largely fuelled by speculation in the ROI?

    Jeezuus.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Sammy, (health warning on this im no legal or finincial expert!)
    So far as i know the legislation that covers Credit Unions, Mutual Societies and the like REQUIRES that they only serve people “with a common bond” that can be geographical, religious, trade union, 6ft blond Belly dancers, whatever, there has to be a reasonable limit on it. There is no issue there so far as i know.
    I think the issues are arising from the scale of the PMS loans and investments, they mite have outgrew the legislation and strayed into what would on the mainland have been the teritory of Banks and under the FSA, but here seems to be a bit of a legal limbo.
    So the auditors are getting looked at to see if there was a point they should have put the brakes on but didnt.
    The moral question is should a Church linked group get involved in this scale of commercial activity.

    As for Petes post, the actually stroy is pull from the BBC website and the links are to his previous rants, is there not some sorta rule in the media about not being able to quote yourself?

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Drumlins Rock,

    just wondering if uppity and obvious fenians would have been ‘oxtered oot’ if they turned up at the door or would cute staff let them them get as far far as filling out Box 1 on the form which presumably enquired if they would agree with the statement that Pope was the whore of Babylon/Ballymena or some such question to weed them out.

    Shirley Not?

  • Drumlins Rock

    nah sammy you just have to fill in the name of the Presbyterian church you belong too and then check with the minister that your on the books.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Sammy you could have joined the “Catholic Building Society” http://www.catholicbs.co.uk/ but it merged with The Chelsea last year.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Drumlins Rock,

    surely the anti-discrimination legislation should be tightened up to prevent one-relgion-only saving/investment organisations given that they are involved in commercial rather than social activity?

  • Rory Carr

    No, Sammy etc., there is no such necessity nor any discrimination inherent in the regulations governing mutual societies, As Drumlin’s Rock has already pointed out with his reference to the Catholic Building Society, any group of people with mutual and exclusive interests may take advantage of the law.

    It would be pointlessly self-defeating if a mutual society could not lawfully discriminate against membership of individuals who did not share or indeed might be opposed to their interests. For that reason we find ourselves more than a little chary of accepting Spurs fans to membership of AFC Supporters’ Group.

    And good job too. Let them form their bloody club!

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Rory,

    what DrumlinsRock pointed out was that there was a Catholic BS – that does not alter the point that a COMMERCIAL organisation should bot discriminate on the basis of religion.

    Supporters clubs are not commercial organisations and mutuals as the recent caper shows are all but in name – if they want to play in the big league then should be governed by big league rules.

  • Drumlins Rock

    “if they want to play in the big league then should be governed by big league rules.”

    I think thats what it boils down to Sammy, the if and when the PMS moved to the Big League, is 300 million actually big for that matter? on the other hand 40 thousand is big if its your pension fund.

    I dont think we have to drag our dirty wee sectarian squabble into everything.

  • fin

    alternatively Sammy continuing the football theme, think of it as a Chelsea FC credit card, anyone can have one but lets be serious its only Chelsea fans who would.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    fin,

    well it might be a more sensible credit card than a Newcastle or Manchester United or Liverpool one – as they do actually have some money to lend.

    “anyone can have one but lets be serious its only Chelsea fans who would”

    That’s the point NOT everyone CAN with a one-religion-only-building-society.

  • Jesus saves

    A relative (not a prebbie, CoI)put 6 grand in. You didn’t have to be a believer even, though at 7% interest, it looked nice. I thought they didn’t go in for gambling, but what a charade. Thank the Lord I was with Icesave. Clearly the man above has friends in the British Government,-step forward Alastair Darling- if not the NI assembly.-step back Arlene.
    Wasn’t there a song by Kenny Rogers about this?

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Jaysuus,

    so you dont have to be a Presbo after all?

    …and there’s me getting all civil-rights-ish over nothing.

  • michael

    The ‘presbo’ thing is irrelevant to me.

    What does feck me off is the thought that my tax is going to bail out gamblers whos speculation on property has left so many in my age group and younger with massive mortgages.

    Three or four years back, we all seemed to experience the same thing constantly.

    Find house that wasn’t in a flag ridden sh1thole.
    View house with girlfriend/boyfriend.
    Put offer on house.
    Get outbid by invester who holds on to it for 6 months and slaps 50 grand on the new asking price.
    Repeat ad nauseum.

    Finally get house at a vastly inflated price that would have bought you two houses and a duck island 5 years previously.

    Where was the notion of ‘society’ in the PMS when they were driving property prices beyond the reach of so many of my friends in their 20’s/early 30’s whos tax has to clear this fecking mess up?

  • Scamallach

    That “illegally operating” link is retarded. I had to click through three other articles to find out how they were illegally operating.

  • Glencoppagagh

    Michael
    “What does feck me off is the thought that my tax is going to bail out gamblers whos speculation on property has left so many in my age group and younger with massive mortgages.”

    Were you compelled to acquire property at an inflated price?

  • Rory Carr

    I am so relieved that you have at last come to your senses, Sammy etc.. I was beginning to have visions of you wandering the streets and mournfully declaiming, “It’s not fair. The Presbyterian Mutual wouldn’t allow me to lose my life savings and be reduced to a life of penury just because I’m a Taig. There’s no justice, I tell ye!”

  • michael

    “Were you compelled to acquire property at an inflated price? ”

    Compelled?
    As in compelled to put my money in a speculation scheme after being compelled not to look at how it was run and compelled not to consider what sort of effect my profiteering would have on wider society?

    No, not compelled.
    Like so many others my age, I simply wanted a home where my wife and I could start a family, and we didn’t want to pay money to private landlords.

    Schemes like the PMS, made it harder for me and many other to afford our first homes.
    My sympathy for them is non existant.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Michael, the PMS were lending money to people like you to to buy thier homes, the money they “speculated” with was to buy sound commercial property mainly in England, which still retains it value quite well compared for emample if it was invested in shares, in the medium to longer term. The area where they are facing the biggest loss probably is some members who were builders/developers had borrowed large amounts to buy development land.
    And by the way what is wrong with paying rent to a private landlord? Most I know do alot more for thier tennants the the NIHE ever do.

  • Cushy Glenn

    “For that reason we find ourselves more than a little chary of accepting Spurs fans to membership of AFC Supporters’ Group.

    And good job too. Let them form their bloody club!

    Posted by Rory Carr on Aug 06, 2009 @ 07:01 PM2

    I’m confused Rory.
    What is this “Spurs” of which you speak?
    I’m sure there’s only one team in north London (actually in the whole of London the only other team I’ve heard of is Orient)

  • michael

    “he area where they are facing the biggest loss probably is some members who were builders/developers had borrowed large amounts to buy development land.”

    Why should the tax payer be expected to cover this?
    It’s a ‘mutual society’ is it not? They mutually shared the profits, then turned on one another when the run started.

    “And by the way what is wrong with paying rent to a private landlord? Most I know do alot more for thier tennants the the NIHE ever do.”

    Do private landlords invest their profits in social housing or in mercs? 😉

  • Brit

    “Spurs fans to membership of AFC Supporters’ Group.”

    No danger of that.

    “What is this “Spurs” of which you speak?
    I’m sure there’s only one team in north London (actually in the whole of London the only other team I’ve heard of is Orient)”

    Firstly, support your local teams you glory hunters.

    Second, there are, in fact, two teams in north London (Spurs and Spurs’ reserves).

    Third Tottenham were formed before Arsen@l

    Fourth Arsenal were formed in South London and their name refers to their Woolwich location. T

    Fifth, have you not heard of Barnet or Hendon?

  • Rory Carr

    I am fully aware of Arsenal’s place of genesis, Brit. I happen to have been conceived myself in Woolwich during WWII ( I like to say that I was conceived in, quite possibly on, Wimbledon Common) but was fortunate that my parents returned to County Down just prior to my birth when my grandmother became gravely ill. By this token I consider Arsenal to be my local team.

    Surely you don’t suggest that I go all carrot-cruncher and start supporting the Milton Keynes Dons?

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Rory,

    ‘your’ boyz have been drawn in the champions league against the team, that many from that side of the divide who dont/cant invest/save with the Presbo BS support ie Celtic. I know ladyball in Ireland is piss poor – on both sides of the border – but this fashion for supporting foreign teams really gets on my mammries.

  • Brit

    Fair enough Rory although I have a soft spot for AFC Wimbledon.

    Arsenal v Celtic..hmmn.

    One of the few occasions when I’ll definitely be supporting the Hoops

    Sorry to break it to you Sammy but Celtic are from Britain too (though their suporters wave foregin flags), I am afraid

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Brit,

    ok, ok then, de facto foreign teams ie the Arse and Celtic.

    Good odds on Celtic at 11/4 to qualify for the group stages. I do like Arsene W. but if, they who like to think of themselves as Irish, do actually win, then he will be really under serious pressure for probably the first time.

  • Cushy Glenn

    “Firstly, support your local teams you glory hunters.”

    No danger of you being accused of that- no glory for Spurs!

    “Second, there are, in fact, two teams in north London (Spurs and Spurs’ reserves)”
    Ahem- no blind spot/paranoia there

    “Third Tottenham were formed before Arsen@l”
    So were Dumbarton, Moyola park, and the Corinthians. Your point again?

    “Fourth Arsenal were formed in South London and their name refers to their Woolwich location.”
    Yawn- so what. If the people of north London were crying out for a decent team in 1912 and Arsenal answered their heartfelt pleas, then we ought to praise them yet further

    “Fifth, have you not heard of Barnet or Hendon?”
    ah yes, my apologies. Two teams who have won the English title almost as many times in the past sixty years as Tottenham. No wonder they escpaed my notice

    Seriously, Rory Carr is wrong about just about everything on Slugger, but isn’t it great that everyone gets to be right once in a lifetime? And the close connections between Rangers and Arsenal are finally going to come in useful ( Rangers FC is a shareholder in Arsenal going back to the 1930s, when the two dominant clubs in british football formed a close alliance)

  • Brit

    Surely Cushy you should be supporting Linfield or Glentoran or something? Rangers I can understand but Arsenal?

    Here in London, or north west London, QPR seem to be very well supported amongst the second generation Irish. Spurs and Arsenal both probaby have the most multi-ethnic / cosmopolitan support in London (although Chelsea are catching up as they are such a global brand now) and I have heard lots of Norn Iron and RoI accents at the Lane over the years.

    Spurs dont really do the Rangers / Celtic thing (like Chelsea obviously do) but there is some sort of link with Aberdeen??

    Anyway enjoy the memories as your 4th place is about to be taken by City.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    …and talking of (de facto) foreign teams the old cricket is not going to well for the England and Wales cricket board at the moment.

    Flintoff clearly missed.

  • Rory Carr

    I also support Barcelona, Sammy etc., not only because I absolutely despise Real Madrid and all that that fucking monarchist, rich man’s toy toy represents but also because I am before everything, an internationalist and like to support those that represent the very best that humanity has to offer in any area of life, hence Arsenal in England and Barcelona in Europe though when they compete my childhood loyalty to Arsenal comes to the fore and this will also apply when they meet Celtic though I expect i will feel a wee bit uncomfortable if I happen to be back in a pub in Downpatrick when that game kicks off.

    I must add that having said what I said above with regard to Real Madrid I feel less than completely happy since the buy-in by the Russian oligarch and will be watching closely for any signs of deviation from Arsenal’s long tradition of decent,ethical behaviour towards its community, its supporters and its players. If that goes then so will my whole-hearted support though it would be difficult to simply abandon all emotional attachment.

  • cynic

    “surely the anti-discrimination legislation should be tightened up to prevent one-relgion-only saving/investment organisations”

    Why dont we just ban religion or freedom of association altogether Sammy?

    Or we could ban charities and local credit unions (which all all independenet)?

    Then there’s all those Catholic Schools which only take pupils who ‘subscribe to the ethos’ {nudge nudge} and which have a legal exemption that allows them to discriminate against Prod Teachers who might contaiminate young minds.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    cynic,

    “Why dont we just ban religion or freedom of association altogether Sammy?”

    Well cetainly banning religion would be a good idea but may be difficult to get agreement of the masses due to their addiction.

    The serious point is that an organisation ostensibly involved in commercial activity surely should not be able to discriminte on the basis of religion – clubs and charities would not fall into this category so would not be affected.

    In relation to discrimination against Prod teachers that should not be tolerated either.