“others might be forgiven for thinking that you are slightly bonkers.”

Senior UUP member Chris McGimpsey addresses Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams’ laughable World Tour for Irish Unity at the Guardian’s Comment is Free.

The difficulty that Adams faces is that under the Good Friday Agreement the Irish government gave up its territorial claim over the people and territory of Northern Ireland and accepted that a united Ireland is not a right, but can only come about once the majority of the population of Northern Ireland demands it. Northern Ireland remains within the United Kingdom and Martin McGuinness, a former member of the Army Council of the Provisional IRA, is our deputy first minister. He and his Sinn Féin colleagues are helping the rest of us (DUP, UUP and SDLP) to administer British rule in Northern Ireland.

There has been a final result to the IRA’s armed struggle and they lost. Democracy won. The Irish and British governments won. More importantly, the people of Northern Ireland won. Comments likes those made by Gerry Adams this week in the “Mother of Parliaments” are simply a crude attempt to persuade Sinn Féin supporters in Northern Ireland that quest for a United Ireland goes on and is achievable. Everyone else in Ireland knows this to be nonsense.

Well, Adams can try, but the only viable way forward is civilisation. Meanwhile, there’s a different conversation Gerry Adams needs to address..

, , , , ,

  • Paul

    How could democracy win in nIreland? It never existed!

  • FFS, not another daily dose of Adams-bashing from this man. You’re making those of us with a strong inclination to dislike the man think again.

    Would you like to explain how your voyeuristic fanaticism with all things Adams-related has developed over the years? You’d make a really good case study, Baker.

    Take your pick:

    or

  • Diomedes

    Very amusing especially this piece.

    “As a unionist I like being a member of a multinational, multiethnic, multicultural, multilinguistic, liberal, pluralist democracy.”

    Needs a netter ending though, maybe

    “To infinity … and beyond!”

  • Pete Baker

    Pat

    At the risk of derailing the thread, the logic of your comment appears to be that I shouldn’t blog about this.

    Instead I should leave it to someone you [think you] agree with.

    I’ve been blogging long enough to have covered any number of topics in detail, and at length.

    Adams just happens to making more noise than usual at the minute.

  • PD

    Was coming on to say pretty much what pat says here. Seriously Mick, this guy’s tirades give your site a very one-sided feel. Very off-putting for people hoping to engage in serious debate, which you can offer here. It’s getting more and more like a home for disaffected republicans and SF-obsessed individuals of every other hue.

  • [i]the logic of your comment appears to be that I shouldn’t blog about this.[/i]

    No, it’s not. You’ve chosen to incorrectly interpret my sentiments to those ends in order to defend yourself.

    [i]Instead I should leave it to someone you [think you] agree with.[/i]

    Insinuations and baseless assumptions make a pretty useless foundation for an argument. I made no such assertion. Again, see my response above.

    [i]I’ve been blogging long enough to have covered any number of topics in detail, and at length.

    Yep, we get bi-weekly space updates (fair enough) and daily or even, if we’re extremely lucky, hourly updates on SF with the majority focusing on Gerry Adams. Seriously, are you John O’Connell’s intellectual doppelgänger in disguise?

    [i]Adams just happens to making more noise than usual at the minute. [/i]

    Two keynote speeches in the space of one month constitutes “making more noise than usual”? You are, quite simply, obsessed with Adams which in turn serves to disguise his shameless hypocrisy and hopelessly vacuous argument.

  • p the b

    apologies [/i]

  • fin

    fasinating. Gerry 329 comments Vs Chris 64 comments. Actual comments are informative aswell.

    It must be disturbing for people like Chris to realise that they cannot gain any real support outside of a couple of counties in the North, they’re so confident (not) that they obsess about a 3rd unionist party splitting votes, try to do election pacts that only a single unionist candidate will stand, and obsess some more about why their own community prefers to stay at home on polling days.

    Kinda get the feeling that the downhill direction of unionism will snowball if they can’t get the voters out at the next Stormont election to stop SF becoming the biggest party,

  • Pete Baker

    Yes, Pat.

    My blogging of what Adams says “serves to disguise his shameless hypocrisy and hopelessly vacuous argument.”

    *shakes head*

  • [i]My blogging of what Adams says “serves to disguise his shameless hypocrisy and hopelessly vacuous argument.[/i]

    I’m glad you agree. You are now boring people and you are attracting much criticism because of your incessant ramblings which are invariably very difficult to read.

    Your message is entirely lost. When O’Connell repeatedly attacks Adams nobody listens because they (rightly) think that he’s an obsessive loon. And that’s exactly how you’re now perceived: any valid points which you may, once upon a time, have been making can no longer be communicated effectively. A collective rolling of eyes now occurs when people view each hourly Baker musing on SF and Adams, with its headline and endless hyperlinks.

    We get it Baker – you hate Adams. You think he’s beneath contempt. We’ve understood that for a long, long time and that’s exactly why your ceaseless attacks serve to disguise Adams’ “shameless hypocrisy and hopelessly vacuous argument.”

  • *with its sardonic headline…

  • Dave

    “As a unionist I like being a member of a multinational, multiethnic, multicultural, multilinguistic, liberal, pluralist democracy.”

    That is funny, since there isn’t one of those values that any sane or sensible person would attribute to unionism. Warning of the dangers of one soul (or should that be…) of sodomy and banging on and on about the right to bang drums on and on, maybe…

    Gerry Adams, having delivered his flock to renounce their right to national self-determination (formally downgrading it to the status of an aspiration that is legitimacy subject to the veto of another nation) has proved his worth to his paymasters. So, these demands for something that he has made impossible are really just attempts to reassure his sheep that he is leading them in the direction they wanted to go when the reality is that they are already sold at the market and being load up into trucks bound for the abattoir. More so, it is about rounding up any stragglers or any wee sheepie that might be tempted to jump out of the truck and become dissident sheep.

    Not only is British sovereignty consolidated in Northern Ireland, it has been extended by stealth in the Republic of Ireland. What will be on offer to Chris McGimpsey we not be Irish unity but rather British unity in that Ireland will not recognise “the Irish people’s right to self-determination, freedom and independence” (as this tout Adams’ spouts) but will recognise the British constitutional structures that will be required to attain the “island of equals” (two nationalisms sharing one state, ruling out an Irish nation-state and thereby ruling out “self-determination, freedom and independence”) goals set out in the GFA.

    What the Shinner muppets are led to think is that if Irish nationalism is suppressed that a new harmony between the two nations will emerge via some bizarre political equivalent of Chaos Theory and that, therefore, there is no deterministic politics involved. Wrong, of course, since the outcome is already predetermined and the suppression of Irish nationalism is not designed via this bizarre logic to promote its aims but rather to undermine them and progress that which is predetermined.

  • Pete Baker

    Pat

    I was quoting you back to yourself.

    As I’ve already said

    “I’ve been blogging long enough to have covered any number of topics in detail, and at length.

    Adams just happens to making more noise than usual at the minute.”

    It’s in the nature of those who prefer attacking the man rather than the ball to avoid the actual issue.

  • Pat the baker

    [i]I was quoting you back to yourself.[/i]

    Yes, I know. So?

    [i]It’s in the nature of those who prefer attacking the man rather than the ball to avoid the actual issue. [/i]

    The issue has been discussed to death, almost always as a result of one of your posts. Why you need to highlight the issue every single day is utterly pathetic and quite tiresome and frustrating for readers of this website.

    [i]Adams just happens to making more noise than usual at the minute[/i]

    I repeat: two keynote speeches in the space of one month constitutes “making more noise than usual”? Right then.

  • Pete Baker

    “Why you need to highlight the issue every single day is utterly pathetic and quite tiresome and frustrating for readers of this website.”

    You blog much yourself, Pat?

  • Pat the baker

    Four years of incessantly repeating the same point v one week of infrequently responding to said nonsense. Big, big difference.

  • kensei

    Gerry Adams’ laughable World Tour fo

    That’s be a value judgement, there. And a wrong one to boot. Mick has blogged repeatedly on the value of external relationships. On America, SF got strong support there during the Troubles and I’m sure if it looked like they were neglecting those ties you’d be the first blog it and dance over the grave. In Britain, the ending of the peace process period and looking like a Tory government means SF need to build new relationships there.

    Those things aren’t substitutes for engaging at home but nor are they “laughable” or stupid. The type of idiotic one track thinking is something I would have had Turgon down for, but not you. Still, people find new ways to disappoint you continuously.

    The difficulty that Adams faces is that under the Good Friday Agreement the Irish government gave up its territorial claim over the people and territory of Northern Ireland and accepted that a united Ireland is not a right, but can only come about once the majority of the population of Northern Ireland demands it.

    Comments likes those made by Gerry Adams this week in the “Mother of Parliaments” are simply a crude attempt to persuade Sinn Féin supporters in Northern Ireland that quest for a United Ireland goes on and is achievable. Everyone else in Ireland knows this to be nonsense.

    So, right, there is a mechanism and a goal by which a United Ireland will occur· But at the same time it will never happen and they should give up trying. Incredibly insightful there, Pete. I await the blogging of the next time Alex Kane rights the same thing. Should be oh, weekly.

    At the risk of derailing the thread, the logic of your comment appears to be that I shouldn’t blog about this.

    No, the logic is you should stop being cack. This is almost as bad as the last one and that was a some kind of new low.

    You blog much yourself, Pat?

    I do, a bit. My cackness or absence of blogging is independent of the uselessness of your blogging on this. It’s one note and without analysis; moreover, you haven’t led the subject any room to breathe. I tend not to agree with Brian Walker a lot, but his piece on this gave some room to breathe and took a benignly sceptical line. The difference is stark, here.

  • Pete Baker

    “Still, people find new ways to disappoint you continuously.”

    Or not, kensei.

  • PD

    Jesus. Mick sack this pillock please

  • ….to infinity and beyond

    “Hi, I’m Gerry Buzz Adams, Light-years ahead in intelligence, Space Ranger from the Ourselves Alone Protection Unit. My ship has crash-landed here by mistake and I need to repair my turbo boosters after Space Ranger Donaldson tried to sabotage my ship and open my helmet, which nearly sucked my eyeballs out of their sockets!”

    “Right now, the Interstellar Space Agreement devised by British Star Command has been responsible for delaying my plans to unite the Irish galaxy under one ethnic people by 2016. The Galaxy is in peril against the Klingon settlers who are plotting to built a weapon with the destructive capacity to annihilate the whole Galaxy”

    “to infinity and beyond!!”

  • Dave

    “Four years of incessantly repeating the same point v one week of [b]infrequently[/b] responding to said nonsense. Big, big difference.” – Pat the baker

    Hmmm… let’s see now:

    Infrequently
    “happening or occurring at long intervals or rarely: infrequent visits.”

    OR

    Incessantly
    “continuing without interruption; ceaseless; unending: an incessant noise.”

    Deffo the second definition.

  • Frank Mitchell

    ”You blog much yourself Pat?” – Pete Baker

    What an arrogant piece of sh*t. I can’t get over that. Mick Fealty, have a word. Baker has lost what little credibility he had left. His Adams fetish is bizarre.

    Baker: get help lad. You write and obviously think about Adams in unhealthy amounts. Why don’t you start your own little blog where you can rant and rave about Adams in your usual prolific manner without bothering the rest of us?

  • PaddyReilly

    Democracy won. The Irish and British governments won. More importantly, the people of Northern Ireland won.

    Yes, Chris McGimpsey won 779 votes in Belfast West (a massive 2.3% of the vote) in 2005. If this is a Senior UUP member, one wonders what the Junior ones are like.

  • cynic

    I dont agree with the above posts guys.

    This isnt about poking Adams with a pointed stick. For me the interest is that a senior Unionist for the first time really has come out and said openly what Unionists need to undertsand is the reality of the situation. Through all the DUPs “No…no…no” years the Unionists simply didnt realise that they, and all those who didnt support violence, had won the war.

    Many in the core SF vote still really havent realised that they lost. I do not want to see noses rubbed in that, but unless we come to a realisation on both sides about the true end state of the campaign in 10 or 20 years it will just recycle again.

    A lot of Adams rhetoric is designed to obscure that positon and, as such, it is destabising for the long term peace, though essentail for the SF leadership to maintain the pretenceand their personal grip on power.

    I actually admire Adams for getting the movement to where it is today and making the best of a bad job. But to move it all on – in all our interests – we need to decouple the new future politics from the past. That demands a new rhetoric and new faces on all sides.

  • kensei

    Cynic

    A bit like modern warfare, “winning” is a somewhat fuzzy concept. Did Unionism get the better out of the deal? Possibly. But I don’t think there were any “winners”, just a big pile of losers of it.

    But no, nationalism is not about to give up the goal of a United Ireland, nor are politicians that are still winning votes likely to retire.

    To sum: not helping.

  • kensei

    Pete

    Or not, kensei.

    Oh noes! I’m broken! … or, not, indeed.

    Come back when you have a substantive response to any of the points made over th elast two days, Pete.

  • Scaramoosh

    Modern day Unionism is essentially a reaction to threat; whereas once it was a creed of domination and control.

    As a political movement it is essentially banal, typified by a vacuity of thought. Progressive thought, replaced by tatoos and flag waving. The extent of the movement’s vision hindered by the bogus notion that Ulster is British.

    It has always been the same, the working class carried the guns, wore the tatoos, and hang up the flags, whilst the quiet middle class unionists
    sneak off down to Fitzpatricks in Killiney for a quite weekend.

    Unionists are a lost tribe, trapped wthin an ideological straitjacket, from which there does not seem to be any prospect of escape. Rabbits caught in the headlights; bereft of any progressive thought. Fixted on Sinn Fein, whilst all aroud them the empire crumbles; the old boys network stops working and the catholics are getting a foot in the door.

    One must only feel sorry for a whole group of people so enmeshed in a culture of negativity.

  • percy

    hear hear scaramoosh
    pete’s mocking posts serve only to underscore your points.

  • “the only viable way forward is civilisation.”

    Pete, how would we recognise a manifestation of this abstraction? Would it be feasible where there are two relatively finely balanced but opposing and exclusive constitutional aspirations?

  • chris

    i would have to agree with the majority of posters and say that pete bakers contributions to this blog are horrendous !

  • percy

    chris, the solution is staring us all in the face.
    Pete hasn’t had a holiday in years.
    lets set up a fund, for compassionate leave.
    Pat the baker can you provide any dough for pete baker 😉

  • Pete Baker

    Nevin

    “Pete, how would we recognise a manifestation of this abstraction? Would it be feasible where there are two relatively finely balanced but opposing and exclusive constitutional aspirations?”

    That’s part of the challenge.

  • Pete Baker

    Cynic [comment 25]

    “A lot of Adams rhetoric is designed to obscure that position and, as such, it is destabilising for the long term peace, though essential for the SF leadership to maintain the pretence and their personal grip on power.”

    Good point. Although I’d suggest potentially destabilising.

  • “That’s part of the challenge.”

    So this ‘viable’ way forward, Pete, has been reduced to a ‘challenge’ ….

  • nuttal

    Guys,

    if you have such a problem with Pete’s postings, just ignore them. I’m sure there’s thousands of bloggers out there that you think are shite/not worth reading without repeatedly commenting on their blog to tell them so.

    Pat the Baker for instance seems to have pulled a nom de plume out of somewhere supposedly just to satirize Pete. How pathetic is this?

    I for one appreciate Pete’s blogs, even though some of them can tend to have a few too many tangent links. I dont think that charge can really be leveled on this post though.

  • Pete Baker

    Nevin

    There’s no reduction involved.

  • Mayoman

    Kensei, I am interested in your comment that unionism got the better of the deal. I think the ‘victory’ for nationalists that the GFA represented is understated. As I see it, as long as NI exists the previous ‘Orange’ state can never return and the possibility of unionism ever again inflicting such ill-used power on NI is straight-jacketed in mandatory coalition. The defeat for unionism here was that it has had to accept that as a political ideology, it is deemed too institutionally bigoted to be allowed gain power under anything that resembles normal democracy. That option is gone. Unionism can never ‘win’ it can only succeed in gaining the marginally greater share of carefully-controlled power. The other option, of course, is a UI. I think the stark realisation of this is manifested in the ‘rise’ of the TUV. But for all the TUV bluster, the UK govt is not going to backtrack on the GFA. The unionist tiger has been tamed and caged, and will stay in the cage for as long as NI exists, or there is a UI. Some definition of winning!

  • “There’s no reduction involved.”

    Pete, you’ve failed to rise to the challenge of illustrating a viable way forward within the context of the opposing aspirations I’ve referred to.

  • kensei

    Mayo

    Kensei, I am interested in your comment that unionism got the better of the deal.

    Depends what you mean. Nationalism got a slice of the NI pie. A more or less equal slice. But it is still just NI pie dished out by HMG. I wonder if the SDLP had have focused on some level of sovereignty transfer to the Republic where it would have went.

    nuttal

    Nah. Especially when there are some glaringly stupid things to show why it’s shit.

  • Mayoman, there’s been a victory of sorts for London and Dublin but the outcome is diminished democracy here. The loyalist and republican tigers were uncaged, the old tigers are tired and toothless and perhaps it’s just a matter of time before the new ones replace them. Policing and justice here have been curtailed in order to protect the greater interests of London and Dublin.

  • “still just NI pie”

    Kensei, metaphors are always problematic. The ingredients may have changed and the cooks may be a liability 😉

  • [i]f you have such a problem with Pete’s postings, just ignore them. I’m sure there’s thousands of bloggers out there that you think are shite/not worth reading without repeatedly commenting on their blog to tell them so.[/i]

    A bit hard to ignore his postings when he makes four entries related to SF, with two of them revealing utter contempt towards Adams, in the space of 24 hours.

    Why the hell should his obsessive diatribes go unchallenged? He’s an embarassment to this site and clearly has deep-rooted psychological issues with regard to Gerry Adams.

    [i]Pat the Baker for instance seems to have pulled a nom de plume out of somewhere supposedly just to satirize Pete. How pathetic is this?[/i]

    Aye, straight out of nowhere indeed. I mean, it’s not like there’s an actual company named ‘Pat the Baker’, is it? Yep, straight out of left field that one. Like, there’s absolutely no similarities between my pseudonym and Baker’s name! How silly.

    [i]How pathetic is this?[/i]

    Slightly less pathetic that your weak defence of Baker and his transformation into the John O’Connell of Ulster unionism.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    pat the baker: “A bit hard to ignore his postings when he makes four entries related to SF, with two of them revealing utter contempt towards Adams, in the space of 24 hours.”

    No its not — just don’t click on them. Easy as pie.

    pat the baker: “Why the hell should his obsessive diatribes go unchallenged? He’s an embarassment to this site and clearly has deep-rooted psychological issues with regard to Gerry Adams.”

    Contrariwise, pat, assuming arguendo that you honestly believe your hyperbole, why would you bother to take them seriously if you honestly believe that Pete’s a nutter? I mean, hey, its your time and everyone needs a hobby… but if you say what you mean and mean what you say, it would seem to be a waste of time.

    Then again, your lack of substantial rebuttal, as opposed to Pete’s research and link-salad over-kill, I’d say you don’t have a “there” there.

  • Pat the Bunny

    “The defeat for unionism here was that it has had to accept that as a political ideology, it is deemed too institutionally bigoted to be allowed gain power under anything that resembles normal democracy. That option is gone. Unionism can never ‘win’ it can only succeed in gaining the marginally greater share of carefully-controlled power. The other option, of course, is a UI.” –Mayoman

    Yowza, Mayoman. You have single-handedly rescued my entire weekend. Great post.

  • Darrell Monteith

    Gerry Adams on his world tour reminds me of Peter Pan in Never Land, he is just about as serious