Is it to be cultural inclusion, or exclusion…

I’m afraid it’s sport again. Specifically Gregory Campbell is making the reasonable plea to have the UK Olympics team drop the term Team GB, since it doesn’t encompass those people from Northern Ireland who legitimately compete for the team. But one sharp reader asks how does this stance sit with Nelson McCausland’s view that the word Irish should be dropped from British and Irish Lions?

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  • Salem

    “Nelson McCausland’s view that the word Irish should be dropped from British and Irish Lions? ”

    Salem is banging her head off her desk – Oh save us from this moron !!!!

    Why dont we just have a british team and see how far you get !!

  • fin

    The “Team GB” title afforded to the UK’s competitors excludes and alienates people from the province, according to Gregory Campbell.

    Please don’t call it a province Gregory

  • Glencoppagagh

    I tend to agree with McCausland
    It’s only recently that this clumsy name came into use. Before that they were simply the Brtish Lions with no apparent dissent by Irish players.
    Now it seems the media (BBC at least) feel obliged to use the longer title at all times. Just calling them the Lions should suffice.
    It’s obviously only a matter of time before they become the snappy “English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh Lions” to the delight of sub-editors.

  • loki

    Unlike the DUP at least the lions appear to be having a winning streak on their current provincail tour;-)

  • The GB/Britain label is steadily being replaced by the UK one so maybe they’ll opt for Team UK …

  • aquifer

    Thanks Gregory for making the political estrangement of the DUP from the UK clear.

    GBR it will stay.

  • Quagmire

    More schizophrenia from the DUP!!

  • Terry’s Chocolate Orangeman

    They’d only have to revert back to Team GB after a United Ireland happens, so whats the point.

    And the B&I Lions don’t wear much Irish green.

  • eranu

    i saw nelson on hearts and minds a year or so ago going into some ‘identity’ nonsense about how he wasnt irish. people like that that cant accept the real world around them are a complete embarrassment to normal people in NI that are happy being part of the UK and don’t have some weird problem with being irish. please someone retire people like nelson pronto!
    British and Irish lions is simply a respectful term to call a team, part of which is made up of players that are from the part of Ireland that isnt in the UK and so isnt British, just Irish. How can anyone have a problem with that.
    Calling for team UK is completely reasonable, but seeing almost all the UK is contained in Great Britian i wouldnt be too worried if it results in no change.

  • Glencoppagagh

    eranu
    Maybe McCausland, like me, subscribes to the Duke of Wellngton’s famous aphorism about people born in stables not being horses.
    It will also no doubt come as a shock to Polish people who have begat children on this island that they must regard them as being Irish rather than Polish.

  • Dave

    Eranu, you can call him Irish when he supports Irish sovereignty. Besides, none of you lot are Irish: you’re Northern Irish – that’s the nation that has the applicable right of national self-determination. 😉

  • Dave

    By the way, the chicanery of referring to unionists as Irish is that the right of Irish national self-determination can then be transmuted for propaganda purposes as support for British sovereignty over Ireland, thereby cancelling out Irish national self-determination.

  • Diluted Orange

    I have to agree with Nelson McCausland. I mean, like him, I am a Northern Irish Protestant. Every ancestor of mine that I know of has been born in Ireland, so I assume that my family name has graced this land since the Plantation, or before, a mere 400+ years ago.

    Its obviously a massive offence for us and people like us to be considered Irish, when I am patently nothing of the sort?!

    [i]By the way, the chicanery of referring to unionists as Irish is that the right of Irish national self-determination can then be transmuted for propaganda purposes as support for British sovereignty over Ireland, thereby cancelling out Irish national self-determination. [/i]

    Let’s get this straight. I AM Irish and others like me (i.e. uppity Prods) are Irish. I may not have the same views as you with respect to ‘national self determination’ but that is irrelevant, that is just a view point. Ireland is an island – not a nation. I am as Irish as you are and have every right not to have my ‘Irishness’ devalued to that of some sort of imposter. You and other Nationalists should just DEAL WITH IT!

  • eranu

    agree with DO.

    southerners and NI nationalists have a right nerve claiming ‘Irish’ as theirs and theirs alone. the term simply refers to people from the island of ireland in either state (not nationality, geography).

    “none of you lot are Irish” agree dave, non of us in NI are really Irish nationals because we dont live in the ROI. but to say we are not Irish people is a bit insulting and logically incorrect.
    the real problem in all of this is that the southern sovereign state took the name of the island as its name when it should really have taken a subset of the island. eg southern ireland. Can southerners please rename their country asap to fix this error??? 🙂
    it may as well have called itself ‘the world’ and then said everyone else isnt from ‘the world’ !

    what is the term when referring to NI people as Irish but not meaning nationality, anyone?

  • Reader

    fin: Please don’t call it a province Gregory
    “Province: an administrative district or division of a country”. So, Northern Ireland is a Province. And strangely enough, Ulster isn’t, these days.

  • Pancho’s Horse

    eranu, we already have a term for the 26 ‘liberated’ counties of the island of Ireland, it’s called the Free State. What makes one a horse is having horses for parents so in theory if your parents/gggggparents were British you must be British regardless of where you were born.So my parents were born in Ireland and I’m Irish and your parents were born in Britain so you’re British ………err?

  • The Spectator

    Isn’t there something in the history of the Olympics about Lord Killanin or something that explains GBR as opposed to UK(I?).

  • Modernist

    DUP making a load of whoopla about nothing again. If nelson wants to call the team the British Lions he can do so if he wishes, I dont care personally. I call it the British and Irish lions because the majority of those playing hold a british passport and the others Irish ones. With the current loggerhead at stormont this just looks like another DUP attempt at window dressing to disguise the fact that other than the attempts to wind up people they aren’t really up to all that much these days. Appealing to the loyalist base I guess

  • Reader

    Pancho’s Horse: What makes one a horse is having horses for parents…
    I’ll tell your mum you said that!
    But for the rest of us, it’s a bit more complicated – geography, identity and citizenship laws

  • Poor old Nelson is as Irish as myself – the ‘Mc’ gives it away. He’s going to have an awful time as Culture Minister – but God pity culture in NI if he gets it. This is all playing to the gallery, trying to be more Unionist than Allister. If that’s the best they can do, they’re on a sticky wicket already.

    Maybe it should be the British, Irish and Northern Irish Lions?????

    😉

  • Glencoppagagh

    Concubhar
    “Poor old Nelson is as Irish as myself – the ‘Mc’ gives it away.”
    Oh yes, of course, we’re all Irish really. It’s just that we obstinately refuse to liberate our inner leprachaun.
    Lucky for me that my name doesn’t have the Mc prefix, maybe you’ll excuse me from being Irish.
    As a matter of interest just how Irish are you? Ó Liatháin couldn’t possibly have been contrived to conceal a rather un-Irish name, could it?

  • curryM

    Why don’t we just get rid of the ‘British’ bit,
    the better players are Irish anyway…

  • dewi

    France just beat the All Blacks in New Zealand btw….

  • dave

    Dubliner you’re sprouting shite as per usual. Anyone born on the island of Ireland has the right to call themselves irish and acquire an Irish passport, so fuck you and the blueshirt horse you rode in on!!!!!

  • Glencoppagh – I don’t know what your problem is. The ‘Mc’ in McCausland’s name gives it away as being of Irish descent. Your delusions about ‘leprechauns’, inner or outer, suggests that drugs aren’t working and a very myopic perspective on what being Irish means. Your own nom de plume suggests an Irish origin – but leaving that aside, my own name is and has always been Ó Liatháin. It’s been that way for countless generations….

  • Laughing (Tory) Unionist

    “It’s been that way for countless generations”. It’s been that way for a very finite number of generations, and subject, of course, entirely to the naming conventions of patrilineal descent we assume. And on top of that, here, as with all Western cultures, the evolution of what were at best informal cognomen into surnames is a process rather less than a thousand years old. Which brings us to the final truth: ‘Irish descent’ is a fiction, both biologically and socio-culturally, just as Britishness is, just as all national indentities are of course constructs. The only saps deluded enough still to think otherwise are blood and soil volkish nationalists ( you know, fascists like Gerry Adams, Nick Griffin &c) – with some of *them*, natch, masquerading as apolitical lingusitic advocates. You really do keep some lousy company Connie. But then again, I suppose that’s just where lousy ideas take one.

  • Was it not the Ulster Unionist Party – now the UUCNF – which sported as its logo not so long ago ‘Simply British’?

    I suppose you are right about all badges of identity being constructs – after all what does ‘Tory’ mean or ‘unionist’ for that matter – once power is attained deconstruction begins and politicians simply say what the civil servants tell them to say…

    You’ll find that there are millions of Irish people who proclaim their Irishness and don’t think they’re fascists. You really need to get out more…

  • WindsorRocker

    Rugby has from its history two anachronisms.

    1. An All Ireland team playing in Dublin.
    2. A team from the British Isles that play as one on tour.

    Both stem from the old United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

    So is it fair that the name of the British Lions is changed to include the “Irish” bit whilst rugby people from Northern Ireland still have their separate statehood denied when the Tricolour flies and the Soldier’s song plays in Dublin for home matches but a game in Belfast is treated like an away match?

    If you want double standards and hypocrisy you have it in the IRFU who presumably pushed for the change in the Lions’ title but continue to link the symbols of a 26 county republic to a 32 county team.

  • Iano

    I thoroughly agree with Mr Muntz.
    They should be called The British and Lions.

  • dewi

    I just wish they didn’t have such a wimpish mascot. I swear that Lenny the Lion cuddly toy loses us 10 points a game…

  • Glencoppagagh

    Concubhar
    “my own name is and has always been Ó Liatháin. It’s been that way for countless generations…”
    Is that what’s recorded on your birth certificate and what your neighbours have called your family ‘for countless generations’?
    How many Ó Liatháins would you reckon there are in Ireland outside your immediate family and if the name were to be anglicised what might it be? Latham, Leathem…?

  • yes

    none of the above.

  • Anglicisation = turning a silk purse into a sow’s ear….

  • Glencoppagagh, the records don’t go back ‘countless generations’ for most family names.

    For example, it’s quite possible the name Lyons could have been Gaelicised to Ó Liatháin in some places; it’s a ‘grey’ area.

    Also, if our ancestors only have the one family name then you can’t rule out incestuous relationships.

  • GGN

    “Lyons could have been Gaelicised to Ó Liatháin”

    Actually, there is no possibilty of that at all!

  • Laughing (Tory) Unionist

    “Anglicisation = turning a silk purse into a sow’s ear” – I’m glad you’ve dropped even the pretence of non-racism: just let it all out Connie, my son. But here’s the thing: why even chat to us in the Hun tongue? Why not spew your bile solely in your own beloved language?

  • I was making a linguistic argument but, now that you mention it, in my view, ‘anglicisation’ is actually the form of racism, an imperial power sending its soldiers throughout the land to ‘translate’ all native indigenous names to the language of the invading force. Why, if not for racist reasons?

    As for ‘spewing bile’ Tory Unionist or whatever you want to call yourself, I’ll leave to that you. Don’t refer to me as ‘son’ by the way – my father was a better man than you or I will ever be.
    I do write in my own language – follow the link.

    I just think it’s the height of imbecility and puerility of Nelson McCausland to waste his efforts trying to get ‘Irish’ dropped from the name of the British and Irish Lions. It’s typical DUP bigotry at work. Why is he doing it when he’s sitting in government with Sinn Féin, to pretend that he’s not? Isn’t this a typical display of DUP disdain for its own community, to try and camouflage what they’re up to with these sectarian antics?

    It also sends out the message to nationalists that ‘Irish’ need not apply in this part of Ireland?

  • Laughing (Tory) Unionist

    You’re easily the most bitterly sectarian poster on this site, Connie, my son, and that’s saying something. That you are now at least unabashed in your open racism is at least progress of a sort: the sort you get when you shine a torch under an especially repulsive rock.

  • I don’t see why not, GGN. Lots of family names and place names have been gaelicised over the generations.

  • ggn

    Nevin,

    Only certain types in certain circumstances.

    Ó Liatháin isnt one of them.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “Nelson McCausland’s view that the word Irish should be dropped from British and Irish Lions?”

    So it should. It has no political affiliation (no GAA involved), and is solely to do with geography (British Isles).

    Why the Irish have to make everything political is beyond me, its really pathetic.

  • I think that LTU illustrates the poverty of his argument with the launch of his man not ball tirade against myself. His kind of trollery is the type, when confronted with an argument based on facts, rather than prejudice, resorts to invective of the ad hominem variety.

    These are antics by the DUP, no doubt it goes down well among some of their supporters, to distract attention from the drubbing they received at the hands of the electorate in the recent election. It’s not only sectarian politics, it’s stupid politics….

  • Ulsters my homeland

    eranu

    “[i]i saw nelson on hearts and minds a year or so ago going into some ‘identity’ nonsense about how he wasnt irish. people like that that cant accept the real world around them are a complete embarrassment to normal people in NI that are happy being part of the UK and don’t have some weird problem with being irish. please someone retire people like nelson pronto!”[/i]

    Tell a shinner or an Irish Nationalist who live in the Republic, they are British because they live in the British Isles!

    Swings and Round-a-bouts

  • Ulsters my homeland

    USA

    “[i]This British / Irish Lions stuff is pretty petty from the DUP. You really would hope they were concerning themselves with bigger issues. All people from the north are free to express their identity as either Irish, British or both.”[/i]

    Its a fucking rugby team based on geography, its not about any other type of identity other than geography. Can’t you Americano’s understand that?

    Maybe when an all-continent American football team is created, from North and South America, will you understand that it doesn’t make sense to call it America, Mexico and Brazilian lions.

  • Laughing (Tory) Unionist

    Far from playing the man, I played the ball of your intentional, unashamed racist remark. You simply can’t take being called on what you are: an ethnic chauvinist, as deluded and vile as all your kind. Gerry Adams and Nick Griffin are more than welcome to your ilk.

  • Driftwood

    The Lion sitting atop the 4 rugby federation badges on the BL shirt is that of the Royal family, on her ensign, and the symbol used by the English Football and Cricket teams.
    Lets not forget who is Boss Cat in these isles.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    You’ve showed a new side Driftwood, not sure whether I’m pleased or disappointed.

  • Driftwood

    Not really UMH
    All of us here will be supporting England in the Ashes, and if England are the only fellow Home team in the World Cup next year (still hopeful NI get through, and Scotland, Wales are out)I’ll be supporting them there.

  • ‘an ethnic chauvinist, as deluded and vile as all your kind’

    That looks to me like the talk of a racist…. So either you don’t understand what you’re saying, which is possible, or you’re a racist who thinks he’s found somebody more racist than himself, which means you’re deluded.

    I made my remark regarding anglicisation in a linguistic context – you’ve made some pretty indefensible remarks here without any apparent context at all except perhaps your feverish delusions of supremacy. I doubt very much whether the Imperial adventures of the British Empire of old did not include racism in their motivations and evidence of that is to be found in their attempt to purge the ‘conquered territories and peoples’ of their native indigenous languages and cultures. I don’t mind the idea of interculturalism – but there’s a hell of a difference between that and cultural domination/invasion.

    The fact that I am arguing on this thread at all, about whether or not we should include ‘Irish’ in the title of British and Irish Lions, a rugby team from Britain and Ireland taking on the World Champions in South Africa, shows how off the track you are. If I were an ‘ethnic chauvinist’ as you claim, I would not be bothered as such a person would view rugby as a foreign game. For the same reason I can, and do speak, and write in English – I’m no chauvinist. The chauvinism I suggest belongs to those who would like to exclude the Irish identity from the British and Irish Lions or those who are purely anglophone and who insist on making everyone speak and write in English….

    You on the other hand engage in personal invective and rhetoric which is, I suppose, intended to distract us from the main point of this thread, to debate the stupidity of the DUP’s Nelson McCausland’s letter re the British and Irish Lions in the context of Gregory Campbell’s plea on the name of the British Olympic Team.

  • “Ó Liatháin isnt one of them.”

    Never say never, ggn, family names and trees are full of surprises. Sometimes the generational link is in name only rather than in DNA. Also, there’s nothing to stop a Lyons or a Lawn adopting an Irish form.

    Officials in Dublin got it wrong when they gaelicised the Bushmills place name – as I’ve mentioned previously.

    The diaspora may need to know about relatively recent name changes in North Antrim when they research their family roots.

  • Gael gan Náire

    “Officials in Dublin got it wrong when they gaelicised the Bushmills place name – as I’ve mentioned previously”

    They didnt, native Gaelic speakers in North Antrim got it wrong.

    I think you may be missing some info here.

    Ó Liatháin is common enough in that area and has not been anglicised for the purposes of this conversation.

    There is a common perception that the Gaelic forms of surnames are somehow mysterious and unknown, this is a myth.

    The possibilty of a someone of English descent adopting a name such as Ó Liatháin, espeicially with the Ó, the surname of Irish peasants (no offence Cnochubhar) is not realistic.

  • I wouldn’t take offence at such, a Ghaeil, but I am glad to be getting a clearer picture of where Nevin is coming from. I don’t know enough about this business with the Gaelicisation of Bushmills – I wonder what the original name in Irish was before it was anglicised?

  • Gael gan Náire

    Concubhar,

    The Irish is Machaire Buí.

    Muileann na Buaise is what the Glensmen and Reachraidh men called Bushmills.

    The ‘Bush’ being an anglicisation of the Irish Buais, the meaning of which escapes me at this time of night but like many rivers, probably a celtic goddess.

    I know from cross comunity word that the idea that someone is sitting in Dublin simply making these things up is common enough, in fact you dont have to look too hared to find even quite educated people who think that the Gaelic language is ‘made up’.

  • Gael gan Náire

    O, apparently John O’Donovan thought that Buas mean’t ‘abounding in cows’.

    Maybe. Doubt it.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘The Lion sitting atop the 4 rugby federation badges on the BL shirt is that of the Royal family, on her ensign, and the symbol used by the English Football and Cricket teams.
    Lets not forget who is Boss Cat in these isles.’

    A nice bit of honest emotion there Drift. England is the daddy and we small pesky irish better accept it. Funny but it was that sort of attitude which started the whole bunfight in the first place. I still can’t compute way some unionists are willing to accept the label ‘irish’ but then continue to demand the bigger country across the sea calls the shots !!!!

    At least the likes of Nelson stick their heels in with the colonialist menatlity of refusing to be irish so their slavish devotion to the land across the water isn’t as strange.

  • “They didnt, native Gaelic speakers in North Antrim got it wrong.”

    GGN, I presumed that Dublin officials decided on an Irish form for Bushmills when they produced bilingual maps. Now they may well have looked through some records, they may even have misread a handwritten Irish record [some transcriptions of the 1911 census for Bushmills are pretty dire].

    If I translate it correctly the Irish form is singular whereas the English form is plural – reflecting mills on either side of the river. These are in Magheraboy on the east bank and Portcaman on the west bank. Magheraboy is given as an alternative to Bushmills in many official records. Bush Towne is another name for the place and that name appears to have been transplanted by the Strawbridge family when they moved to a property at the junction of the roads that lead to Garvagh and Limavady a few miles outside Coleraine.