Ron Paul : What if the people learn the truth?

  • Sinead Barnes

    Indeed…

  • sms

    what a speech and the Republicans rejected him for John McCain. were they mad or what?

  • K

    Wow! Fantastic speech!

  • 6countyprod

    Utopian nonsense!

    When good men do nothing, evil men take over.

    Would you rather have the Hitlers, Stalins, Kims, Saddams, Molosevics, Bin Ladens, Putins or Kaddafis of this world in charge, or American presidents?

    I know which I prefer.

  • Harry Flashman

    I have quite a bit of regard for Ron Paul and if I was an American I would vote for him. It is only us spoilt brats in the rest of the world who actually benefit from US military power and little thanks we give the Americans in return.

    6cp, yes we obviously like not being under the rule of those tyrants but what benefit do the Americans receive?

    If the US simply ignored the horrendous dictators around the world would they be any worse off? The US is impregnable to foreign invasion, if they want the oil of the Middle East sure they can simply pay for it like all the rest of the world, there is absolutely no need to go propping up Arab despots or toppling them as the fancy takes them, just leave them alone. Sell Israel all the equipment and weapons they want and leave them to it to sort out their neighbours as they, the Israelis, see fit.

    Indeed I would go so far as to say that the US has gained no great benefits from any of the overseas wars she has fought and the US would have been no worse off if they had never fought them.

    Of course as a European who grew up in a safe, democratic and wealthy Europe I am very grateful for all the vast amounts of blood and treasure that the US has expended on keeping me safe but somehow I don’t see what’s in it for the Americans.

  • Wilde Rover

    6countyprod,

    “When good men do nothing, evil men take over.
    Would you rather have the Hitlers, Stalins, Kims, Saddams, Molosevics, Bin Ladens, Putins or Kaddafis of this world in charge, or American presidents?

    I know which I prefer.”

    If the American electorate is so dull that it cannot see the inevitable collapse of its republic then it deserves the full body bags, the eternal wars, and the crippling debt from propping up its global empire that it faces.

    And given the latest batch of rape photos from the “Iraqi liberation” and the protestations that torture is legitimate I find it particularly crass that you persist with this Good Vs Evil tripe.

    But since you are seemingly still a victim of the fear mongering propaganda that led people to believe that Saddam was going to kill English kiddies in 45 minutes you have my pity rather than my scorn.

  • skydome

    Liberal nonsense. He and Jeremaiah Wright should get together in a Blame America party.

  • Wilde Rover

    Skydome,

    It must be tiresome for you to be bothered by some nonsense about icebergs while you are trying to rearrange the deckchairs.

    Not to worry, the band is still playing so everything must be ok, right?

  • Harry Flashman

    “Liberal nonsense”

    Ron Paul is a libertarian Republican who believes in sound budgets, small government, individual liberty, the right to bear arms and putting America first.

    The idea that he is some sort of Left winger is absurd.

  • Laughing (Tory) Unionist

    Superb stuff as ever from Ron Paul. And as a much smaller point – while his rhetoric was brilliant, his speech had to be delvered in the lacklustre format of a remote podium to a dead chamber. Whatever problems people think we have with Westminster-style parliamentarianism – be it in London, Dublin, Canberra, Ottawa or even, God help us, Stormont, Holyrood or Cardiff – please let us never go down the road that leads to an institution as corrupt and ineffectual as the US Congress.

  • Greenflag

    Here are some of Ron Paul’s comments on the ‘Iraqi Oil Grab ‘ I’m sure Harry Flashman will agree with all of them ?

    Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11; Al Qaeda was not in Iraq. (Feb 2008)

    How many men are you willing to let die in Iraq? (Jan 2008)

    The Iraq war is driving the US into bankruptcy. (Jan 2008)

    Terrorists do not attack us because we’re free or prosperous. (Jan 2008)

    Different view on war because I adhere to the Constitution. (Dec 2007)

    Iraq is not Nazi Germany; WWII opposition did not cause WWII. (Dec 2007)

    Anger abroad at US for planning 14 permanent bases in Iraq. (Dec 2007)

    Mercantilist oil dependency was reason for war. (Oct 2007)

    We went into Iraq under false pretenses of WMD and 9/11. (Sep 2007)

    Preemptive war is against Christian doctrine of just war. (Sep 2007)

    No US role in autonomy for Christians in Iraq Nineveh region. (Sep 2007)

    People saying “bloodbath” said “cakewalk”: listen to dissent. (Sep 2007)

    Take marching orders from Constitution; not from al Qaeda. (Sep 2007)

    How many more lives lost just to save face? (Sep 2007)

    Neocons hijacked our foreign policy to invade Iraq. (Sep 2007)

    Iraq war is illegal; undeclared wars never end & we lose. (Aug 2007)

    Neocons promoted Iraq war for years; not about Al Qaida. (Aug 2007)

    We’re more threatened now by staying in Iraq. (Jun 2007)

    Stop policing Iraq’s streets; have Iraqis take over. (Jun 2007)

    We should have declared war in Iraq, or not gone in at all. (May 2007)

    Opposes Iraq war and opposes path toward Iran war. (Jan 2007)

    But for those who believe Ron is the greatest thing since sliced bread there are his comments on other issues which may disappoint ! More anon.

  • AJJM

    Having read his book (Revolution: A manifesto), I find myself agreeing which much of what he says. I’m not sure about his views on what government should provide (it has a responsibility), but apart from that I like alot of what he says. He should definitely have been the Republican nominee. Guess there aren’t many right-wing libertarians out there (although as a Classical Liberal, I’m borderline)!

  • Greenflag

    ‘Wall Street is dumping its trouble onto Main Street. (Sep 2008) ‘

    Wasteful government spending backed by both parties. (Apr 2008)

    There’s payback for guns and butter. (Feb 2008)

    Great nations and empires end for financial reasons. (Feb 2008)

    Live within our means and start paying down the deficit now. (Feb 2008)

    All bets are off if a cataclysmic dollar devaluation occurs. (Feb 2008)

    We owe foreigners $2.7 trillion and more printing won’t do. (Feb 2008)

    Stimulus package means more printing & devaluing the dollar. (Feb 2008)

    Reagan was very sympathetic to the gold standard. (Jan 2008)

    Federal Reserve creates money and prints it out of thin air. (Jan 2008)

    Economic stimulus ok, but not via spending & printing money. (Jan 2008)

    Dollar crashing due to trillions spent on maintaining empire. (Jan 2008)

    Lower interest rates CAUSED housing bubble & can’t solve it. (Jan 2008)

    The longer the Fed delays recession, the worse the recession. (Jan 2008)

    Give up American empire; that reduces debt without sacrifice. (Dec 2007)

    We spend too much, tax too much, & print too much money. (Dec 2007)

    Restore GOP by returning to less gov’t & fiscal conservatism. (Dec 2007)

    Weak economy is source of resentment against immigrants. (Dec 2007)

    Maintain the value of the dollar, unlike Federal Reserve. (Oct 2007)

    Currency inflation counterfeits prosperity & destroys poor. (Oct 2007)

    Can’t legislate economic fairness; so make government small. (Sep 2007)

    Fiat money causes economic & political imbalances. (Jun 2007)

    Government out of regulating economy & out of our bedrooms. (Jan 2007)

    Oil prices rise in part because of the weak dollar. (Jan 2006)

    We can’t afford a trillion-dollar war in Iraq. (Jan 2006)
    Maintaining American empire diminishes dollar. (Jun 2004)

    Interesting point from the above is

    ‘Can’t legislate economic fairness; so make government small’

    So Ron seems to favour rule by Wal Mart ? Exxon ? Goldman Sachs ? Problem being those Corporations are not yet ‘political parties ‘ and thus can’t be voted for -well not directly by the populace but indirectly via the power of special interest lobbyists who finance the re-election and election campaigns of Republican and Democratic politicians . Does anybody know who financed Ron Paul’s election campaign or who are his ‘preferred ‘ donors ?

    He’s a unique voice no doubt and like Ralph Nader destined to be heard only by the outer fringe in American society.

    His views on abortion would seem to indicate he’s a traditional Roman Catholic but further investigation revealed he’s Protestant.

    As they say -only in America.

  • Greenflag

    Ajim ,

    ‘He should definitely have been the Republican nominee.’

    McCain lost by 10 million votes – Ron Paul would have lost by 20 million . Wanting to get rid of Social Security would have cost him the votes of every American over the age of 40 and particularly in the middle of an economic meltdown on Wall St . Having had their 401ks and retirement funds looted by the Wall St masters of disaster and their property equity value halved about the last thing Americans would have voted for would be the ‘privatisation ‘ of social security. Even Bush had to withdraw that proposal . His party told him it would have been electoral hari -kari .

    ‘Guess there aren’t many right-wing libertarians out there’

    A lot of what Ron Paul says strikes a chord with many Americans on the right and left .There is a simplistic appeal . It’s just when you add it all up together the contradictions mount . There can never be small government in a nuclear armed country with 300 million people and a financial centre (Wall St ) which if not regulated properly can shut down the entire world economy. Yes the IRS needs major reform and yes the Iraqi War was just an oil grab -even Greenspan admitted as much.

    The USA / And everywhere else 😉 needs more effective and accountable government and by that I mean accountable to the broad majority of voters and not just politicians in the back pocket of large corporations and the financial services sector (USA ) less so in the UK/ROI. Making that happen is of course up to the people themselves . People have to make their voices heard and taying abed when election time comes around is as always a vote for inertia . There are times in history however when ‘inertia ‘ doesn’t cut it anymore and when it can be positively harmful to one’s future and the future of family etc .

  • Greenflag

    error above

    ‘taying abed ‘ should read ‘laying abed ‘ –

    ‘taying abed ‘ could be a apt hibernicism for having a cup of tay while in bed – I’m sure Jimmy Joyce would approve ?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Yes the IRS needs major reform and yes the Iraqi War was just an oil grab -even Greenspan admitted as much.

    I used to believe this, but when you look at the amount of money that has been spent on Iraq it’s clear that, as far as oil grabs go, it was extremely poor value for money. That money could have been put into the Canadian tar sands or the deeper oil wells throughout the US to extract oil with a lot less hassle.

    No, I think the Iraq war was largely a personal enterprise for Bush, and a very convenient way for senior businessmen connected to his family and fellow politicians to make a nice little earner.

  • Greenflag

    Where’s Harry -Gone in a flash eh ;)?

  • 6countyprod

    Wow, Greenflag,
    You seem to really like Mr Paul. To conjure up all those quotes just out of your head, amazing!

    Harry F,
    I think we are pretty much on the same page.

    I reckon the US is sometimes foolish for providing so much money and so many resources and people to needy parts of the world, because they get little or no thanks for it, apart from those who directly benefit from it, and sometimes that is not even the case. I do, however appreciate their generosity of spirit and their willingness to pitch in when there is a genuine need. Having lived for around 20 years in developing countries I have witnessed first hand the benefit and help American aid is, but it is generally covered up by Europeans (media, etc.) as it exposes our own selfishness.

    Just imagine the mess many parts of the world, including Europe and Japan, would be in if it were not for American intervention and help. Some people, of course, will never be able to bring themselves to acknowledge the improvements the US has made to the world, but that’s their own narrow-mindedness.

  • Greenflag

    6 county prod ,

    ”You seem to really like Mr Paul’

    Well I’d be lying if I said I disagreed with all his political positions just as much if I said I agreed with them . But he at least asks questions which deserve ‘real ‘ answers from the more mainstream politicians both Democratic & Republican .

    Of course being anti abortion does not necessarily mean Ron Paul is pro children . He voted against health care being extended to 6 million non insured American children who actually survived the birthing process and are actually now living and sentient beings . But because they are mostly poor and either minority , immigrant, or the children of so called white trash that’s all they deserve ?

    Strange dude Mr Paul . For somebody so clever on some issues one wonders why he’s so thick on others ?

    Anyway the Republican Party opposition (if it can be called that ) now have another real ‘cruncher ‘ to decide on . Will they or will they not endorse Obama’s pick for the Supreme Court of the USA ? They can piss of the country’s 40 million Hispanic’s or they can listen to the words of their base i.e Rush Limbaugh ?

    ‘ To conjure up all those quotes just out of your head, amazing!’

    It’s easier if you try

    http://www.ontheissues.org.TX/Ron_Paul.htm

    And you need’nt stop at Ron Paul . What’s that word that’s now coming into vogue at Westminster but alas not yet in the Dail ?

    ah yes ‘transparency ‘. It means seeing through the shite to get to the real truth .

    You need practice at it 😉

  • Clady cowboy

    6cp,

    “I reckon the US is sometimes foolish for providing so much money and so many resources and people to needy parts of the world, because they get little or no thanks for it, apart from those who directly benefit from it, and sometimes that is not even the case”

    I’m not an out and out Yankee basher but there is a whole lot wrong with this viewpoint.

    US foreign policy tends to benefit American elite interests more than anything else.

    What goodwill could America create by spending a tiny fraction of what they have spent on Iraq by, for instance, paying for the provision of clean drinking water to parts of the world in need?

    It makes sense to me. Don’t you agree?

  • Greenflag

    ‘US foreign policy tends to benefit American elite interests more than anything else.’

    Think Israel and the Oil companies and what President Eisenhower (A Republican ) told Americans to be wary of i.e the military industrial complex . Domestically Americans have to be scared of the Private Health Insurance and Drug Company complex who have now grabbed almost 20% of the economy while the banking and shadow financial sector were looting 40% of all profits made in the private sector.

    Anyway those thinking of investing in the US dollar or British pound as hedge’s against future inflation will be disappointed . And that’s not because George Soros said so 😉

  • Greenflag

    6 county prod ,

    apologies website

    should be just

    http://www.ontheissues.org

    will get you there and you can search to your heart’s delight for whatever it is you’re looking for .

  • Greenflag

    Comrade Stalin,

    ‘No, I think the Iraq war was largely a personal enterprise for Bush, and a very convenient way for senior businessmen connected to his family and fellow politicians to make a nice little earner.’

    Whether it was an official oil grab or a largely personal enterprise we may never really know unless they strap Dick Cheney to a lie detector and even then I would’nt doubt the ex VP’s ability to register unclear reasons .

    American oil interests could see as far back as the 1990’s that their control over the world oil supply market and their ability to take on OPEC etc was dwindling fast . Iraq provided a convenient excuse to delay the inevitable until another alternative became possible.

    That plan turned out to be a load of bollocks and has cost the USA more than it was worth and not just in lives lost . What it has cost them in the region politically we have yet to see .

    Obama appears to be trying to reverse the worst aspects but he’ll not have it easy . Already Afghanistan is looking like a lost cause and Iraq is functioning as an effective three way partitioned State with Kurds , Shiites and Sunnis if not at each other’s throats then ready to kill for the next barrel of oil 🙁

    The fat lady has not sung yet in Iraq nor in Afghanistan .

  • Mack

    Greenflag, I was wondering when the set of comments that prove Ron Paul isn’t the best thing since sliced bread are coming? 😉

    Peter Schiff is his economic advisor, Ron Paul adherent of the Austrian school of economics (Ludwig von Mises, Fredriech von Hayek, Joseph Schumpeter, Henry Hazlit etc). I don’t think he’s the corporatist you suggest, rather I think he actually believes the market rewards malfeasance with bankruptcy…

  • 6countyprod

    Clady Cowboy: ‘it makes sense to me. Don’t you agree?’

    Absolutely. That’s the point I was making. America does so much around the world, for exactly that kind of practical need, but the effort, for the most part, remains unacknowledged, and even hidden.

    After the tsunami in Asia a few years ago the US put a huge effort into rescue and relief using all of their warships and helicopters in the region to help those in need. To this day the role they played has been ignored.

    A few months ago a report ( Stanford School of Medicine ) credited Bush’s Pepfar AIDS relief programme for saving the lives around one million people in Africa. The report was studiously ignored, or buried at the bottom of page 62, by the world’s media, because it goes against the anti-Bush/USA narrative that they have implanted and seek to nourish in people’s minds. The actions of a few renegade US soldiers are, on the other hand, plastered for days on end on the front covers.

    Unlike many other powerful countries in the world, the US uses its resources and strengths to help others. I would hate to see that force for good withdraw and become selfish and inward looking.

    Ron Paul, I suppose, says some sensible things, but if the US was to adopt an attitude of splendid isolation, I believe the world would be a lot poorer for it. Just imagine waiting for the likes of Cuba, Russia, China and the Arab states to come forward to give aid and help to those in need! Europe is playing a growing part, but the US is still indispensable.

  • DAN BREEN

    Well said ! Big Business kills everything ! The funny part of this story is how the british suck up to the Americans..When will we realize that when a minority controls the majority you are going to have trouble. Do you really think there is going to be lasting peace in Israel? Northern Ireland ? Puerto Rico? (A welfare state ) All empires come to an end………..

  • Wilde Rover

    6countyprod,

    “America does so much around the world, for exactly that kind of practical need, but the effort, for the most part, remains unacknowledged, and even hidden.”

    I never said that America doesn’t do anything good. What was objectionable was the cartoonish use of the Goodies and the Baddies. But perhaps you have a point, in that America is also portrayed as completely evil in some quarters.

    “After the tsunami in Asia a few years ago the US put a huge effort into rescue and relief using all of their warships and helicopters in the region to help those in need. To this day the role they played has been ignored.”

    So you believe a global imperial armada is the best way to help people? The point being made by Ron Paul and the Austrian School is that the US cannot maintain its global empire indefinitely. Anyone who had a genuine interest in the continuation of the republic would see that.

    “The actions of a few renegade US soldiers are, on the other hand, plastered for days on end on the front covers.”

    Repeat after me: a few bad eggs, a few bad eggs, a few bad eggs…

    This torture was sanctioned at the highest level.

    Do you think rape and torture is some small thing? Perhaps you have been watching too much “24”

    “Ron Paul, I suppose, says some sensible things, but if the US was to adopt an attitude of splendid isolation, I believe the world would be a lot poorer for it.”

    The term is non-intervention, as in not intervening in the affairs of other countries. It does not mean isolationism, but if a term is drilled into your head long enough…

    “Just imagine waiting for the likes of Cuba, Russia, China and the Arab states to come forward to give aid and help to those in need!”

    Cuba, despite the embargo upon them, does give aid in the form of medical help, often to poor Americans. Venezuela is also involved in this aid. Africans don’t seem to be more resentful of the Chinese then they were of the Europeans or the Americans.

    And as for the remarks about Arab states and giving aid, perhaps you don’t quite understand Islam, or the role charity plays in it.

  • nineteensixtyseven

    Comrade Stalin,

    The Iraq War may have cost the US government a fortune but not so with Halliburton, Blackwater, Shell Oil and the various other contractors and such like. Don’t forget the neocons are pretty happy to load the Federal Government with as much debt as they can just so they can discredit it before moving on to their next boardroom job at ExxonMobil.

  • Harry Flashman

    “Where’s Harry -Gone in a flash eh ;)?”

    Everyone seems to be very concerned about my location these days, well GF if you must know I was sitting out in my back porch with a John Grisham and a cheap bottle of Aussie plonk, I’m not a complete Slugger addict you know.

    Now to address your points, you only like Paul’s ideas which correspond with your anti-American world view; Iraq was an “oil grab” that sort of nonsense (for a thousandth of what they spent on that war they could have bought the entire output of Iraq’s oil fields from a perfectly happy to oblige Saddam Hussein).

    You part company with him where his policies don’t relate to yours and with Ron Paul that is pretty much 98.7% of the time. You see you are a nanny state man, you love big gub’mint, you never see something that you don’t think couldn’t be improved with half a hundred overpaid, idle civil servants clogging it up.

    Ron Paul doesn’t support government health care not because he doesn’t like black children or whatever other tosh you come up with, he doesn’t like government health care because he doesn’t like government health care.

    What part of libertarian do you not understand?

    He doesn’t like government, he is of the old fashioned opinion that the government’s sole business is protecting the borders and if you leave men and women alone they’ll pretty much work out all the other stuff on their own. It’s not a fashionable opinion in an era when we assume that everything from our houses to our children should be the gift of the government but it’s an opinion that has some merit being as how it was people who thought that way who actually created the United States in the first place.

    I seem to recall that you were horrified by Ron Paul’s policy of eradicating the US Department of Education. To you it seemed that the only way people could learn to read and write was if there was some god almighty huge government department sitting in Washington DC doing it all for them. It might surprise you to know that the US Education Department was a creation of Jimmy Carter and is mainly a boondoggle for the teachers’ unions to avoid having to teach anyone.

    Surprisingly the children of the United States had all managed to get an education in the previous two centuries before Carter came along and since the behemoth government department was created the standards of public schooling in the US have deteriorated catastrophically (no doubt Bush is to blame for that too).

    If you can’t even see that Paul might have a point about government schooling (and there’s a phrase to send a chill down the spine of any parent) it ill behoves you to pretend he’s right about what he regards as misguided wars overseas. With Ron Paul it’s the whole enchilada or nothing, if I was an American I would be delighted to vote for him as I am not an American and rather selfishly enjoy the benefits of global US domination I am very thankful that US voters keep voting in presidents who are so keen to look after me and other non-US citizens.

    Thanks Uncle Sam.

  • Greenflag

    mack ,

    ‘I don’t think he’s the corporatist you suggest, rather I think he actually believes the market rewards malfeasance with bankruptcy’

    I was not trying to suggest he was a full red in tooth and claw corporatist, but by ‘omission’ it’s at least a reasonable premise, that his mixed bag of policies would amount to, by default .

    I too believe the market rewards malfeasance with bankruptcy (in theory ) and eventually in practice . However on the way to such a ‘moral’ reward ;)? millions of people have their lives destroyed and their savings wiped out largely because of the mutual admiration society and bed partnering between Wall St and Washington DC which in recent decades has become more than just a degenerate ‘incestuous ‘ affair .

    Now some defenders of the ‘completely free market ‘ may say that if Government was small and kept itself a million miles away from the ‘market’ then general prosperity and rising living standards would ensue just as day follows night ? I don’t buy that rational not because I’m anti capitalist because I’m not, but because I believe the underlying drive behind ‘capitalist ‘ innovation /creative destruction, will always ensure that the most ‘ruthless’ will rise to the top and anybody else who wants to survive in business will be forced to follow the lead of that ‘minority ‘ even over the edge of the abyss . This behaviour pattern has been evident particularly in the shadow banking and financial services sectors of Wall St/City of London in recent years.

    What we call civilised ‘political ‘ society will not long survive any such a drop into the abyss . At the bottom of said abysses ? lie failed Weimar Republics and the like or worse . And while it would be a comfort to know that another holocaust would never be allowed to happen – if enough people are desperate enough to believe in any politically generated ‘scapegoat ‘ it can end with French aristocracy losing it’s heads , Russian Tsars being shot and failed artists (Hitlers) and failed would be priests (Stalin) climbing into power ! I believe the world has only very narrowly avoided financial chaos on a scale that would have led to political instability in the west not seen since the 1930’s.

    I see the present situation as not just a normal ‘recession’ which was artificially delayed by the Bush administration’s fiscal profligacy and by using ‘war’ as an economic stimulus – but something much deeper which will require a great deal of political skill on the part of governments everywhere to work through . And while I see merit in a lot of what Ron Paul is suggesting the whole package just does’nt ring true -not at least according to how I view ‘human ‘ nature .

  • Greenflag

    lil ole wine drinking harry flashman,

    ‘you only like Paul’s ideas which correspond with your anti-American world view;’

    Rubbish -I’m as anti american as the majority of Americans that voted the Republicans out of office and the 95% plus who did’nt vote for Ron Paul.

    ‘You see you are a nanny state man’

    I’m not -I just don’t see government by private corporations as a preferable alternative.

    ‘you love big gub’mint’

    That aussie plonk is showing . I like as much government as is necessary to deliver the basics for a civilised society . If by small government you favour Health Care , Education and Pensions provisions being entirely privatised then I suggest you have been either asleep for the past year or not keeping up with the ‘world ‘ beyond plonk 😉

    ‘for a thousandth of what they spent on that war they could have bought the entire output of Iraq’s oil fields from a perfectly happy to oblige Saddam Hussein).’

    You have to stop believing in the lies you are fed . They have actually ended up spending several times what they planned to spend. The financial scenarios envisaged by Rumsfeld , Cheney & Co were in retrospect a load of bollocks . Everything from the numbers of military needed to post war reconstruction etc was vastly underestimated . General Colin Powell has pointed out the flaws to degree that is embarassing for the former administration

    ‘Surprisingly the children of the United States had all managed to get an education in the previous two centuries before Carter came along ‘

    ALL managed to get an education ? This will be news to the millions of African Americans and the poor Southern whites of Appalachia . Of course you did say an ‘education’ which can mean anything from learning to recite a few prayers to learning not much more than how to write x on a piece of paper ?

    ‘With Ron Paul it’s the whole enchilada or nothing’

    Which is fair enough for Ron Paul but for the vast majority of Americans that approach is not acceptable, which is why he did not get the votes .

    ‘ if I was an American I would be delighted to vote for him ‘

    I’m sure you would . And if you were a German back in the 1930’s your support for Hitler’s pro corporatist economic policices would by same logic of ‘the whole enchilada or nothing ‘ approach, lead you to supporting the ‘removal ‘ of German Jews and other ‘undesirable ‘ anti social elements -gypsies and communists and homosexuals etc to the pleasures of Dachau & Auschwitz ?.

  • Harry Flashman

    “And if you were a German back in the 1930’s your support for Hitler’s pro corporatist economic policices would…..blah…blah….blah…”

    And GF’s descent into Godwin territory concedes the argument to me. How in the name of flying fuck is supporting individual liberty against an over-mighty state the equivalent of supporting a totalitarian government that ran roughshod over individual liberties?

    At least it was after sundown when I started on the booze Greenie, 11am seems a wee bit early for you to be opening the first one is it not?

  • Greenflag

    harry flashman ,

    ‘He doesn’t like government, he is of the old fashioned opinion that the government’s sole business is protecting the borders and if you leave men and women alone they’ll pretty much work out all the other stuff on their own.’

    Now exactly how old fashioned would that be ? 1850 ? 1776 ? or perhaps the Middle ages ?

    History has shown us that the reason what we now call ‘governent’ arose was because men and women when left alone were ever prey to other men and women when resources became scarce . Once man moved beyond the hunter gathering stage ‘government ‘ whether by group clan leader , tribal chief , feudal lord , nation state King – tyrannical dictator or democratic government became a necessity to maintain the social and economic order.

    Can you have too much government . Yes . It was caused Communism . Can you have too little government . Yes . It’s called anarchy – Present day Somalia comess to mind as well as Wall St .

    What we call democracy is not meant to mean rule by Corporations nor rule by Pirates . Unfortunately for the USA over the past 25 years ‘democracy’ has been undermined by the power of the financial services lobbies and the undue influence of the oil industry and larger corporate lobbies.

    Carry on – drinking of course 😉

  • Greenflag

    Good ole Godwin eh Harry ? Hotter than the whole enchilada and guaranteed to sober you up ?

    ’11am seems a wee bit early for you to be opening the first one is it not?’

    On the Whit weekend I start at sun up and to celebrate the appearance of that long absent bright UFO in the sky I thought I’d imbibe :).

    Good luck in your efforts to defend the individual against an overmighty State . I’m sure the less than ‘overmighty’ thieves of Wall St & the City will appreciate your efforts on their behalf. They need all the support they can get right now I hear 😉

  • Greenflag

    6 county prod ,

    ‘but if the US was to adopt an attitude of splendid isolation, I believe the world would be a lot poorer for it.’

    We agree on that much at least . The USA like every earlier world power faces cutting it’s cloth to it’s present measure or overextending itself to perdition . No sane person American or European or anybody else for that matter wants to see that . Which is why virtually the entire world apart from the North Koreans and the Israelis (the extreme nationalists) have a favourable view of President Obama’s rational approach to world affairs and are glad to see the back of the previous imcumbent.

  • 6countyprod

    Wilde Rover: ‘Cuba, despite the embargo upon them, does give aid in the form of medical help, often to poor Americans. Venezuela is also involved in this aid. Africans don’t seem to be more resentful of the Chinese then they were of the Europeans or the Americans.

    And as for the remarks about Arab states and giving aid, perhaps you don’t quite understand Islam, or the role charity plays in it.’

    This has to be the most naive thing you have ever written on Slugger, WR. Can you not differentiate between window dressing and reality? Cuba specialises in exporting revolution, which, for the most part, has resulted in widespread destruction and death, especially on the continent of Africa. Chavez is the south American Mugabe who is well on his way to destroying the Venezuelan economy. Sending a few blankets to the down and outs in NYC makes for good photo opportunities and propaganda, but have little long-lasting impact.

    The Chinese permit continuing genocide in Sudan because of their insatiable lust for African oil and they are treating Africa as a supersized colony. It’s not surprising that Africans are starting to get nervous. The US pours in resources, especially to the land-locked countries, while the Chinese are becoming the neo-colonialists, draining resources from the continent.

    If Arab countries practised what they preached and actually performed Zakat, then Christian missionaries, UN and other helps organisations would not have to drill wells and run medical clinics in Muslim villages in northern Burkina Faso or Mali or elsewhere. Where does all the oil money go? It’s certainly not given to help the needy. Used for building mosques, promoting Islam and jihad?, yes. Help the sick and suffering in poor African countries? Don’t hold your breath!

  • circles

    6CP – Did you spend your 20 years in developing countries with your eyes completely closed?
    Let’s have a look at your ridiculous claims again shall we?

    With regards to Cuban development assistance. You claim “Cuba specialises in exporting revolution, which, for the most part, has resulted in widespread destruction and death, especially on the continent of Africa.” Actually Cuba, with its well known publich health system, specialises in supporting public health care in developing countries. I have met highly trained Cuban doctors right across West Africa, working n hospitals and living locally, supporting and training national health care staff. Of all the violence and troubles Africa has suffered I don’t think any sane person could possibly accuse Cuba -or were they behind apartheid? the murder of Lumumba (ooops sorry that was the CIA)? The never ending grab for resources in DRC? The diamond wars that ran through Sierra Leone and Liberia? What about in Chad? Sudan? Unrest in Kenya following the elections?
    Complete and utter bollox!

    In my experience the Chinese have been welcomed in every country I have visited in Africa. True people are not delighted with how they are sucking out resources but say at least with China you get what you see. With Europeans its all just hypocrisy – they promote good governance but support their own dictators if needs be, are huge consumers and polluters but say that African governments must respect the environment, and so on. USAid – well thats just the CIA anyway (and you’ll have a hard job convincingly denying that). The Chinese don’t give a monkeys about any of this, they’re in it for what they can get out, just like everybody else, they just don’t pretend otherwise. That may offend your sensibilities 6CP and make you reconsider your world view – no harm there.

    Have you ever heard of the IsDB? The islamic development bank? Have you ever actually looked at most of the wells in the sahel zone -not only do the IsDB do banks but a myraid of other islamic organiations too. I have hundreds of photos if you need proof of this. In addition to this I’ve seen health centres, roads, makets, schools, oprhanages all financed with money from these organisations as well as supporting developments processes, training of staff, literacy course and loads more.
    Yes there are islamic organisations with an explicitily religious agenda (paticularly the saudis), much like there are christian organisations with an explicitly religious agenda (Christians digging wells for a muslim village – then comes the bible translation into the local language, the “oh yes Mohammed was a great man but have you heard of Jesus?” type conversations, the donkey carts for christian converts and on, and on)
    In my opinion these organisations are insidious and parasitic feeding of people’s need.

    Your twisted preconception of who does what in developing countries is well off the mark 6CP. And I think you owe Wilde Rover and apology too.

  • Harry Flashman

    Circles, God love you, you really believe the Chinese and Arab land grab currently going on in Africa is down to Islamic charity and the thoroughgoing decency of the Chinese?

    And the Cubans have an excellent healthcare system?

    Yes, and East Germany was the ninth most successful economy in the world in 1988, their female athletes in the 1974 Olympics were the epitome of Socialist womanhood, oh, and the 1933 Ukrainian grain harvest surpassed all records.

    As I said to you in an earlier post, I’ve got the exclusive selling rights of a beautiful bridge in Brooklyn, I can let you have it at a discount.

    Das Vidanya kamerad.

  • circles

    Harry – stick to the cheap plonk as it would appear to be about the limits of what you know.
    Now go back to your bottle and try not to interrupt when the grown ups are speaking about things you plainly dont understand or know next to nothing about – theres a good little boy.

  • circles

    Oh and by the way – if the language in my psot was too complicatd for you to understand, just ask – it’ll make your comments a bit more relevant too.
    You shouldn’t really feel compelled to comment on a post when either a)you haven’t understood what it says or b) you haven’t read it at all.

  • Duncan Shipley Dalton

    Ron Paul is just a wing nut pure and simple. The whole notion of the utopian Libertarian society is just so much crap. There never has been one for god sake the whole notion of private property as we know it and which so many libertarian are so religiously concerned with is a relatively recent human invention. Modern governments that have grown up have been because of need and the obvious and flagrant abuses that the private sector have committed at every opportunity. I was as a younger man quite critical of the NHS but my experience of private healthcare in the USA has converted me into a zealot in favour of the NHS. I recall reading my blue cross blue shield healthcare insurance policy details and one of the conditions was that only certain ambulance services were covered by the policy. So if the proverbial bus came along and hit me and I was lying unconscious in the road and someone called the wrong ambulance company then I could look forward to being stuck with a bill for whatever services I received from that ambulance. It is nonsense like that which has created the need for government run services and thank god for them. Ron Paul is a fringe nutter and so are those who agree with him.

  • Greenflag

    Duncan Shipley Dalton,

    ”The whole notion of the utopian Libertarian society is just so much crap.’

    Indeed and it is , was, and always will be just exactly that 🙂

  • 6countyprod

    Circles,

    You are very touchy today!

    You know as well as I do about Cuban involvement in fostering revolution in Africa. Did none of the locals in Gaoua ever tell you about the fear that they helped to instil in the province of Poni?

    It’s interesting that you should mention the DRC. I’ve just finished reading Meredith’s book, ‘The State of Africa’, in which he catalogues Cuban ‘assistance’ to the continent. Apart from providing their ‘expertise’ in Angolan and Ethiopian wars, they also helped a certain Laurent Kabila to cut his revolutionary teeth.

    Individual Cubans have of course contributed in a positive way to African development, but over the years the general Cuban policy of exporting their communist ideals in Africa has resulted in great suffering in many African countries, far out-weighting any benefits they may have brought.

  • circles

    I am touchy 6CP – the weekend is almost over and on top of that I don’t sffer fools gladly – a horrible way to prepare for a new week altogether.

    I would argue that Cuban involvement in supporting revolution has been extremely limited in Africa. Don’t go blaming the appeal of communism to newly independent and heavily exploited countries on Cuba – I think some countries got there before them. Che Guevera’s brush with Kabila was just that – and it should be remembered that at that time Kabila was fighting against Mobutu (CIA employee, murderer of Patrick Lumumba and dictator extraordinaire). This CIA favourite robbed the country blind and set the DRC up for these endless years of war and not a Cuban in sight.
    It should also be remembered that these “Cuban” activities were all back in the 60’s during the independence wave and the fight against colonialisation was in full swing. Now are you saying this was an unjust struggle to try and regain independence?

    But staying with the DRC, the negative of impact of both french and US involvement has been and continues to be several orders of magnitude more serious and more sinister than anything Che Guevera may have gotten up to.

    Talking of Burkina – I don’t know what fear your talking about in Poni – there was of course the fear of the french Travaux Forcés where another generation was scarred by being forced to engage in hard labour for the colonial ruler. The Lobi (around Gaoua) in particular resisted this. But fear of a band of commie campaneros? No sorry but that never came up in even the craziest of conversations. Although there is still a great deal of respect for Capt. Thomas Sankara – the murdered former president who himself was very much inspired by the cuban revolution. Indeed cuban doctors supported his “vaccination commando” that immunised 2.5 million children against meningitis (a particular killer here), yellow fever and measles.

    Its laughable to paint Cuba as being anywhere near the root of Africa’s ills and you know that very well 6CP.

    By the way – you say communism brought woes to Africa, well capitalsm hasn’t exactly been a barrel of laughs either. I don’t see anybody round here, apart from well placed politicans, benefitting from the free market.

  • 6countyprod

    You are right, Circles, everything is relative, but just think of all those nice roads we get to travel on that created by forced labour!

    The Lobi hatred for the French is still in their thinking, in fact they still mistrust foreigners. I remember reading the account of the first Irishman who lived in Gaoua (1932). The French commander, governor maybe, of the region insisted that the Irishman should live close to the where the French were stationed because he was afraid of what the Lobis might do to him. Being your normal stubborn Irishman (from Moira, I think), he refused, and lived instead among the Lobis.

    The Chinese of course build the hospital in Gaoua and had it staffed with Chinese medics. Unfortunately they pulled out all the doctors when BF recognised Taiwan.

    Apparently Sankara went to school for a while in Gaoua and used to throw stones unto the roof of the French commander’s house. The folks in Gaoua liked him, although the public defence committees gave them the willies.

    Trust you are well. 😉

  • circles

    Keeping sound 6CP, hope you are too!
    They have a tarred road now right down to Gaoua which has changed things considerably and opened the region up.
    The Mossi have come down from the plateau and they haven’t wasted time in organising their agriculture, being the good farmer (unlike those Lobi tearaways) and working with different projects, knocking out their cash crops, gettingtheir land deeds and making cash out of that fertile soil. In Gaoua now you can buy butter, red wine (in bottles!), TV’s, motorbikes.
    And the Lobi are being swamped out.
    You know Blaise is not daft – he knew what he was doing when he recognised Taiwan – they’re pumping money in their like crazy as everybody else in the region went for China.

    But I’ve moved on from Gaoua a while back and live now in Niamey, Niger, where the president just dissolved parliament in a manouevre for a third mandate – as opposed to the constitutional limit of two. Chinese are busy here – building a second bridge over the Niger, an oil refinery and prospecting for uranium – got Sarkozy so jittery about the possible loss of the french uranum monopoly here that he came himself to slime with the president.

  • Wilde Rover

    6countyprod,

    I suppose it comes down to whether you think central and south America are there for the benefit of the indigenous people, or if they are there for the benefit of a small clique of elitist gombeen men and their masters in the US and elsewhere.

    I would argue that it is the right of any group of people to resist the spread of “manifest destiny.”

    “The Chinese permit continuing genocide in Sudan”

    “Permit”? Freudian slip there? True, many might fault them for not getting involved, but if you want to do a head count of the dead I think there might be another country way out in front on that score…

    “Used for building mosques, promoting Islam and jihad?”,

    Accusing people of using their money to start wars is just a little ironic, don’t you think?

  • Harry Flashman

    Dear Circles

    To quote Oscar Wilde;

    Stick it up your hole you pompous wee fuck-knuckle.

    Much Love

    Harry

    PS Did I mention you’re an insufferable twat?

  • circles

    Harry – did i say something to annoy you?
    What a pity. Maybe next time though you’ll think before touching your keyboard.

    Unlikely though.

  • barnshee

    “Sell Israel all the equipment and weapons they want and leave them to it to sort out their neighbours as they, the Israelis, see fit.”

    Yep –and let anyone else sell arms and equipment to the Palestinians and mind you own fucking business when Iran develops atomic weapons (the Israelies already have them) and let them “sort out their neighbours as they “the arabs see fit?

    Alternatively, tell the shitty little state that is Israel the party`s over get to fuck off arab land or you sonny, are on your own.