Unionists fight over Maze

The DUP and TUV are fighting over the Maze Shrine. Jim Allister accused the DUP of having done a deal over the Conflict Transformation (Shrine) at the Maze. This was angrily denied by the DUP with Simon Hamilton calling for Allister to make an apology. In reply Allister has repeated the claims and also the fact that he has called on both the current and previous DUP Environment ministers to de-list the Maze and have the remaining buildings demolished.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done

    Turgon,

    This is quite a difficult issue for Jimbo to go to war on as the DUP are claiming it as a one of successes in preventing the stadium and although he still appears to have a point it can be argued both ways.

    His other battlegrounds will be police and education which can also be viewed as successes or failures for the DUP depending on your point of view. The detail of the police bill has not been discussed on Slugger (in spite of many promtings by myself) and this could be his main weapon in Lundifying Robbo and Deputy Dodsy.

    How much traction do you think Jimbo has with the electorate? What % of the vote do you think he will get.

  • 6countyprod

    I’ll be amazed if Jimbo gets any more than 15-20% of the unionist vote. TUV’ers should be careful not to burn all their bridges so that they have somewhere to go after the wipeout!

    When Jimbo has to hold Tupperware parties to raise funds for his campaign you know he is struggling.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done

    6countyprod

    “I’ll be amazed if Jimbo gets any more than 15-20% of the unionist vote. ”

    Surely that would be very good result for him ? I presumed he would be well under 10% ?

    Has he got ANY strongholds?

  • Peter Fyfe

    It is amazing that there is an arguement over who wants a museum less. What is wrong with a museum when it presents history in a factual light? Is this not a form of education? It makes me think of the debate on creationism being taught as science. What are politicians trying to paint us as? Are we as a society opposed to forming our opinions based on evidence? Are we affronted by scientific analysis? Thank god it is only nutters, wait a minute,it is our largest party, that’s right.

  • 6countyprod

    iwsmwdi,
    I was only trying to be magnanimous. Maybe 10% is more realistic, say around 20,000 votes?

  • redhugh78

    ‘I was only trying to be magnanimous. Maybe 10% is more realistic, say around 20,000 votes?’

    As a first time poster I will put my neck out here and predict that James will poll around the 50,000 mark if not MORE.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done

    Peter Fyfe

    Was Bobby Sands a murdering terrorist or an insurgent of principle?

    The ‘facts’ are always viewed through the filter of ideology particalalry in Norn Iron.

    6CountyProd

    I think 20,000 is nearer 5% – and I wonder if he he gets less than 10% if he can carry on. I personally think he comes across very well and although I disagree with him I think he is operating on the basis of principle and have a grudging respect for him.

  • Peter Fyfe

    It was Sammy Mc Nally what done,

    Bobby sands was a person from Northern Ireland who
    joined the IRA, was jailed for his activities. While in the Maze Prison he took part in the blanket protests and eventually became the first person to refuse food as part of the hungerstrike of 1981. He died as a result. I left quite a lot of detail out but I have shown there is no need for emotional language when presenting history. I understand where you are coming from but I am not happy to be told by the DUP or TUV that I am not smart enough to study facts for myself. Should we stop teaching history in Northern Ireland in case it is presented in the wrong light? I am not calling for a shrine just for a rather important part of history to be preserved for the education of future generations.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    If there’s going to be an interpretive centre at the Maze, I want alternative views to be represented. Perhaps a display of prisoner officers riding around on the backs of velociraptors or republicans being marched onto the Ark or something.

  • 6countyprod

    Sammy,

    Here are the % votes over 6 elections.

    DUP UUP Oth U Alliance Others SDLP SF

    32% 17% 0% 0% 9% 16% 26%
    28% 18% 5% 2% 0% 28% 17%
    29% 24% 2% 4% 3% 29% 9%
    30% 22% 5% 5% 3% 25% 9%
    34% 21% 3% 5% 2% 22% 13%
    30% 22% 7% 7% 9% 25%

    Unionist mavericks don’t do very well.

    Jim is obviously a smart guy, otherwise the DUP would not have given him a second chance to make something of himself.

    I can’t get my head around his current position because if he really believes what he is saying now, why in the world was he ever at St Andrews? He obviously agreed in principle with negotiations with SF then, but now wants to give the impression that he would never want to be involved in such a thing.

    The UUP had already given so much away that it was amazing how much the DUP salvaged from the mess. Jim could have been part of the seimic changes that have taken place but prefers to harp on from the sidelines.

    After the election he will return to the political obscurity he enjoyed before being called upon by the DUP to serve in Europe.

    I hope he has a nice retirement.

  • 6countyprod

    Dumb Yank, are the ‘political bankrupts’ doing harm to your business prospects? I would have thought you would be doing a roaring trade with the peace agreements and all! You should create a tea cloth or something with a smiling Marty and Ian on the front for all those gullible Irish-Americans. You’d make a fortune.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done

    Peter,

    “Bobby sands was a person from Northern Ireland who joined the IRA, was jailed for his activities”

    Fair Point

    BUT

    You, and me, and most nationlaists, may be happy with neutral language but I suspect most Unionists will not – look at the furore over Eames Bradley where a ‘neutral’ body drew up the proposals. The shooting of prison guards during the hunger strike would be one example of where there would be real difficulties – were they ‘murdered’ or ‘killed’.

    I was personally in favour of the ‘Bobby bowl’ and still favour an educational/peace centre but perhaps private investment with members of the public invited to buy shares would be the best way forward.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done

    Slightly off topic – but did any Unionists actually go to see Hunger and if so what did they think? Biased republican propaganda?

    It was hard not to see the film as a ‘positive’ portrayal of Bobby Sands and republicanism (I had some reservations about the script in places) although I was sympathetic to the hunger strikers to start with.

  • Frustrated Democrat

    The level of dissatifaction within the DUP vote at the last Assembly election is quite high it will split off in two directions to the TUV and back to the CU’s.

    I would expect in the EU election the TUV to take around 20% of the DUP vote and maybe 10% going back to the CU’s, who will have the national Conservative election machine behind them. This could be a 50-60k reduction in the DUP vote from last time round and could move them from 1st to 2nd or even 3rd in the overall poll.

    The DUP are caught in the middle, which flank they decide to defend will have a big bearing on the final vote tallies.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done

    Frustrated Democrat

    The odds below are from Paddy Power which suggest your estimate of the TUV vote is not far off but probably a bit on the high side.

    I dont think these figures have moved since I looked a few months ago which suggests that there is considerable uncertainty about how this election is unfolding and nobody has has fecked up too much recently or become flavour of the month.

    I personally think Jimbo will get less that 20,000 as all the DUP need to say is (as mentioned many times by many here before), that a vote for Jimbo is a vote more to help SF top the poll and also possibly to let the SDLP get the third seat from the SF surplus.

    Regarding the Tory/NF vote cant see Unionists moving back from the DUP but turnout in North Down and other alleged Garden-centre-Prod-strongholds should be up from a very low figure last time round IN 2004.

    Paddy Power says..

    0 – 10,000 7 – 1
    10,001 – 20,000 9 – 2
    20,001 – 30,000 3 – 1
    30,001 – 40,000 9 – 4
    40,001 – 50,000 4 – 1
    50,001 – 60,000 6 – 1
    60,001 or more 4 – 1

  • Reader

    Peter Fyfe: What is wrong with a museum when it presents history in a factual light?
    Excellent point. The debate tends to get a bit tense, unfortunately. How about a museum in a compromise location? La Mon, for instance.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done

    Reader,

    as a fair-minded-Prod-type-about-this-place did you see the film Hunger? did any Prods you know go to see it and in general what did they/you think of it?

  • 6countyprod

    ‘What is wrong with a museum when it presents history in a factual light?’

    Do museums always portray the ‘facts’, or can they be manipulated to reflect one particular perspective of a given situation?

    Several years ago I visited the Museum of Slavery at Liverpool’s dockside buildings. I enjoyed the visit so much, especially as it so accurately reflected what we had experienced during 20 years of living in Senegal, Ivory Coast, Ghana and Burkina Faso, that my wife and I went back for another visit in January.

    We were horrified to discover that the new curator had dispensed with ‘the facts of slavery’ so clearly exhibited on our previous visit, and had imposed his own overtly politically correct bias and interpretation on the museum. The result was an angry presentation of ‘the fact’ that white people are responsible for all the problems that blacks face. We were disgusted with such a blatantly one-sided display.

    That is how a Long Kesh museum would end up.

  • Reader

    It was Sammy: did you see the film Hunger?
    No. Though don’t read too much into that – I don’t watch a lot of drama even on TV. I doubt many others watched it, for other reasons. I expect many wouldn’t feel like paying to watch something they would expect to be MOPEy at best and most likely propagandist (even if also gritty…)
    I am curious why you think watching it might make a difference, though. How could I sift out the fact from the fiction without already knowing a lot about the subject? Nor could it affect the actual arguments for or against political status – which would never depend on how many republicans killed themselves, nor on how much drama and sentiment could be wrapped round the story. And that whole martyrdom business – more likely to appeal to themmuns than ussuns, I might add.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done

    Reader,

    “I am curious why you think watching it might make a difference, though.? ”

    I dont know whether it would make a difference to you or not what I am curious about is how Prods view the film which portrays Bobby Sands as an articulate person driven by political conviction.

    Whether they would view it simply as propaganda or would accept his convistion but view him as I might view a suicide bomber in Britain.

  • Turgon

    It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it,
    I have not seen the film either because I never go to the cinema that much. I used to BK (before kids).

    To be honest I have never regarded Bobby Sands as anything other than intelligent and articulate. I think he was driven by a political conviction. I would regard it as a warped and indeed morally wrong political conviction and a political conviction with a large dose of sectarianism but a political conviction none the less. Just as most suicide bombers also have deep convictions or (offending Godwin’s law) Nazis had deep political conviction. Some of the other IRA terrorists and indeed hunger strikers may have had less political understanding.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Kieron:

    The detail of the police bill has not been discussed on Slugger (in spite of many promtings by myself)

    It is, of course, about far more than a “police bill”. But there is no detail in it to discuss. It is enabling legislation. It doesn’t contain anything concrete about how devolved policing and justice will work here. It doesn’t sound to me like you’ve read it.

    The bill which really matters and which will actually define and establish the devolved justice institutions is the one which is supposed to be brought before the NI assembly. That doesn’t exist yet, and I’d say we won’t hear about it until the Euro elections are out of the way.

  • danielmoran

    to red hugh…. msg 6. i ‘m not sure what percentage of unionists will go to the polls to vote positively for tuv, but isn’t the bigger danger for the dup the number of their core voters who sit at home rather than vote dup now. i don’t know what percentage this, combined with those who will vote for sunny jim will impact seriously on the duppers.
    at the very least it can split the unionist vote leaving sinn fein as biggest party in brussels. isn’t the fact that robinson is prepared to risk that, an indication of their obsession with finishing allister off for good.?

  • Peter Fyfe

    It was Sammy Mc Nally what done

    I am sure you agree with me that history should be studied through the basis of evidence. It is the job of a museum to produce this evidence. It is up to those who visit a museum to decide on their opinion from the evidence produced. This is a basic skill children should learn at school to be able to deduce their own opinion from the evidence presented.

    Reader

    I see no problem with the location, people should be taught what happened. Though as stated History should involved the study of evidence. I would not like to move a museum that discussed the hungerstrikes away from the site that produces many primary sources from the period. It would probably defeat my arguement completely if I was okay with ignoring primary sources of evidence so that is why I think it should be at the Maze site.

    6countryprod

    Going by what I have written, do you believe I want a museum to ignore the facts? It is contrary to what I have argued for. So were you able to make up your own mind about each individual visit? It appears you were able to tell the differnce between facts and propaganda from your description of the visit. Would you rather people lived in ignorance and not study the subject through evidence? Who will feed their minds then? Future generations will form opinions on the troubles, let them be evidence based opinions. Let us present the evidence to them and see how they interpret it. I would like to think most people will reject the notion of going back to what they see.

    This grandstanding from the TUV and DUP is nothing more than an insult on the intelligence of the people of Northern Ireland. It is funny that a leading barrister is so affronted about the idea of a museum. Does he not recognise the importance of evidence?

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done

    Turgon,

    re. cinema.

    Hunger is available on DVD.

    I presume that your contention that Bobby Sands beliefs contained a “large dose of sectarianism” is based on your contention that the PIRA embraced a sectarian ideology and as Bobby Sands was a member, it is reasonable, as you see it, to assume he was sectarian or he would not have joined?

    I dont think most historians would agree that the PIRA campaign was a sectarian campaign or was the prime motivation for most individuals but few would try to deny that aspects of the campaign were sectarian.

    I know the roll-call of attacks (Le Mon, Enniskillen etc) which were truly shocking but the vast majority of the Provos campaign were not directed at secatrian targets.

    Comrade Stalin,

    and there I was successfully passing myself off as a Prod called Sammy and you go and use my fenian name – any more of that and I will get my bestest friend Pete Baker on your case as it must surely be in breech of some obscure Slugger rule.

    re. Police Bill – if it was not important then why was it recently amended?

  • Brian MacAodh

    All this being said, where is the Maze in 5 years?

    Demolished? Still sitting there as it is now? A museum/peace centre?

  • Ben

    For what it’s worth, I had a wee visit to the Maze/Long Kesh as they were beginning to rip the place down. Visiting the hospital wing and being able to view the actual location of the death of the hunger strikers gave it a dimension that seeing it anywhere else would not have. Perhaps this is the source of DUP concern. But that concern could go in both directions. If there can’t be some sort of educational effort there, should the walls of (London)Derry be void of historical marker? Being afraid of discourse about the past is one of the problems here, it’s time to do that in a more constructive manner. Honest curation of contentious sites may compel us to work through some of the difficult truths of our history. On with it! Ben

  • Gael gan Náire

    Turgon,

    Apologies if I have asked you before but it is of interest to me.

    I think I recall you stating that you felt that the fact that an killed RUC man may have been a Protestant may well have been seen as a bonus for Republicans – is this accurate?

    You are a religous person and seem to attribute religous motivations to much of the conflict here.

    Is this a pretty standard interpretation in the TUV? If so, it would explain alot for me.

    I ask as an effort to understand the TUV and due to the fact that of all the Republicans I know most are socialists and athesists or at least agnostic. It is hard to see the religious view.

    For someone like myself, who sees religon as just another political ideology, and one which I resolutely oppose, in particular Islam and Christianity, I would still fail to see any religous motivations.

    Interested in hearing your views.

  • 6countyprod

    Peter,

    Your assumption is that ‘museums’ are always objective places. As I tried to indicate in post 19, that is not always the case.

    Irish republicans, and for that matter, Palestinians have already proved themselves a lot more adept at propaganda than unionists and Israelis and there is a genuine concern that a museum at the Maze would be hijacked to glorify the republican violence of the past 40 years which resulted in the deaths of 3,600+ people.

    It would be adding insult to injury.

  • Frustrated Democrat

    GNG

    Always remember in NI being and atheist or agnostic doesn’t mean you are not a protestant, catholic or even some other religion.

    That may go someway to explaining the problem.

  • Gael gan Náire

    “Always remember in NI being and atheist or agnostic doesn’t mean you are not a protestant, catholic or even some other religion”

    I reject that of course, at least from my point of view.

    I do notice that unionists sometimes refer to the protestant people, this is what I am interested in.

  • Ben

    6countyprod –
    One of the challenges in creating museum, or in any other educational effort, is to keep it simple enough so that the material is broadly accessible, but not so simple as to distort the nature of the thing. To make a statement like “glorify the republican violence of the past 40 years which resulted in the deaths of 3,600+ people” is simplification to the point of distortion. C’mon…
    Ben

  • 6countyprod

    It was the IRA pursuit of ‘war’ that perpetuated the ‘Troubles’. When they stopped, the war stopped. Simple facts, my dear Ben!

    They instigated the war, perpetuated the war and, when they realised their folly, terminated the war.

  • Peter Fyfe

    6countyprod,

    Your assumption is that ‘museums’ are always objective places. As I tried to indicate in post 19, that is not always the case.

    That is not an assumption. I know in some places museums are twisted to suit someones belief. My arguement is to present a musuem full of primary and secondary sources of history through which people can make an analysis of history for themselves. What is wrong with a museum at the maze with evidence presented in a non-inflammatory way? Are you worried about people thinking for themselves?

    would be hijacked to glorify the republican violence of the past 40 years which resulted in the deaths of 3,600+ people.

    Are you worried people will see through statements like that for the propaganda they are? This beauty has shown me you care nothing for evidence and that may be your main objection to a museum. Or are you just anti-intellectual as it will show you up for the bigot you are?

  • padraic

    Why use language as deliberately provocative and pathetically biased as ‘shrine’ (twice) to begin with? Talk about walking with dinosaurs.

    [i]They instigated the war, perpetuated the war and, when they realised their folly, terminated the war.[/i]

    Yep, it really was as one-sided as that. No psychotic, blood-thirsty militant unionists or members of the British state instigated or perpetuated any of the murder and mayhem – just those pesky Provos.

    With such a fantasically deluded account of history and politics being spouted right here on this forum who needs a museum?

  • Reader

    Peter Fyfe: I would not like to move a museum that discussed the hungerstrikes away from the site that produces many primary sources from the period. It would probably defeat my arguement completely if I was okay with ignoring primary sources of evidence so that is why I think it should be at the Maze site.
    I had assumed you were talking about a troubles museum – for a start, the term normally used while discussing the Maze shrine is ‘Conflict Resolution Centre’. 3000 people died in the troubles – what makes you think that 10 of them should have a museum of their own?

  • Frustrated Democrat

    GNG

    The ‘protestant people’ are by and large those who are the tribe that reject a UI, they can be protestant, aethesist or agnostic as longer as their background is one of those religions in the protestant family. It would, I assume, not include those against a UI who are not protestants but in NI I am never too sure about labels.

  • Gael gan Náire

    FD,

    “The ‘protestant people’ are by and large those who are the tribe that reject a UI, they can be protestant, aethesist or agnostic as longer as their background is one of those religions in the protestant family.”

    Let me get this straight, you are saying that one doesnt have to be a protestant to be a protestant?

    I think thats a wee bit mental. Sorry!

  • Gael gan Náire

    FD,

    “The ‘protestant people’ are by and large those who are the tribe that reject a UI, they can be protestant, aethesist or agnostic as longer as their background is one of those religions in the protestant family.”

    Let me get this straight, you are saying that one doesnt have to be a protestant to be a protestant?

    I think thats a wee bit mental. Sorry!

  • Gael gan Náire

    FD,

    “The ‘protestant people’ are by and large those who are the tribe that reject a UI, they can be protestant, aethesist or agnostic as longer as their background is one of those religions in the protestant family.”

    Let me get this straight, you are saying that one doesnt have to be a protestant to be a protestant?

    I think thats a wee bit mental. Sorry!

  • Gael gan Náire

    Whoops! Turgon I have made a mess on your thread.

  • Peter Fyfe

    Reader

    I don’t think think ten of them should have a museum of their own but the period surrounding the hungerstrikes played a pivotal role in the history of Northern Ireland and the troubles. Probably one of the most important periods and the most deadly. Do you have a problem with me suggesting such prime pieces of primary evidence should be central to a museum? Also, more than ten people died during the Hungerstrikes.

  • Frustrated Democrat

    GNG

    Well it could construed to be a very wide term, a friend of a protestant might do or someone married to a protestant.

    As I said we are a strange people here it could be more about what you think about politics than religion.

  • Reader

    Peter Fyfe: but the period surrounding the hungerstrikes played a pivotal role in the history of Northern Ireland and the troubles.
    People keep on saying that, but disagree about the new direction after the hunger strikes. SF would have you believe now that the hunger strikers were the predecessors to the GFA negotiators. But back then they would have said their actions legitimised and formalised the violence by specifying a political dimension. Dissident republicans reckon the hunger strikes are still unfinished business and that the strikers have been betrayed by politicians.
    And whenever constitutional nationalists give cover now for the hunger strikers, they use the language of defenderism – not republicanism. I think you have said here that you weren’t a SF supporter. So what do the hunger strikes mean to you? And how did they shape the present?
    Personally, I think it was just a grim punctuation mark in our history – not a pivot.

  • 6countyprod

    Peter,

    ‘I know in some places museums are twisted to suit someones belief.’

    I agree 100%. That is why there should not be a republican place of pilgrimage at the Maze.

    evidence presented in a non-inflammatory way/care nothing for evidence

    Evidence for what? You are already making a case for your point of view.

    are you just anti-intellectual as it will show you up for the bigot you are?

    Pete, you lost the argument right there! When all else fails, use insults, right?

    I was going to tell you to póg mo thóin! But I’ll just say:
    May you have the hindsight to know where you’ve been;
    the foresight to know where you’re going;
    and the insight to know when you’re going too far.

    Slán agat!

  • Realist

    Turgon,

    “To be honest I have never regarded Bobby Sands as anything other than intelligent and articulate”

    Remind me why “intelligent” Robert was in The Maze in the first place?

    “I would regard it as a warped and indeed morally wrong political conviction and a political conviction with a large dose of sectarianism but a political conviction none the less”

    The PIRA OC in The Maze during the Hunger Strikes would know a bit about that.

    Not surprisingly, he didn’t go on Hunger Strike.

    Maybe the “Conflict Transformation Centre” will tell his story?

  • padraic

    [i]Remind me why “intelligent” Robert was in The Maze in the first place?[/i]

    As much as you hate the man, I bet it hurts you even more to know that the vast majority of Catholics on the whole island – whether advocates of constitutional nationalisism or militant republicanism – admire the man for his courage, determination and eloquence to this very day.

    Most people are trying to move on from the vindictiveness and sniping that belong thoroughly in the past. I know it’s scary, and, in the words of ‘Lord’ Trimble, means that this side of the house will never be cold again, but you should try it.

  • Realist

    “As much as you hate the man, I bet it hurts you even more to know that the vast majority of Catholics on the whole island – whether advocates of constitutional nationalisism or militant republicanism – admire the man for his courage, determination and eloquence to this very day”

    It doesn’t “hurt” me one bit padraic – and nor do I care where people say their prayers.

    “Most people are trying to move on from the vindictiveness and sniping that belong thoroughly in the past. I know it’s scary, and, in the words of ‘Lord’ Trimble, means that this side of the house will never be cold again, but you should try it”

    Happy to “move on” padraic.

    Moving on does not involve glorifying the actions of members of sectarian death cults.

    Can you shed any light on why Robert was in The Maze in the first place, or is that a tad inconvenient when discussing his couragousness?

  • Brian MacAodh

    “They instigated the war, perpetuated the war and, when they realised their folly, terminated the war.”

    The first civilians killed were by Gusty Spence and the rest of his loyalist murder gang, as were the first explosions that ripped through the province.

    The first soldier (he was home on leave) killed was by an RUC officer.

    The first RUC man kiled was by a British soldier in a loyalist-british gunfight after the disarming of the B specials.

    These are pretty strange facts considering the sole cause of the “war” was a group of republicans spontaneously deciding to attemp armed insurrection without any good reason.

  • Brian MacAodh

    Bobby was in the maze for possesion of a firearm.

    If you had seen your family burned out your home by sectarian mob as state security forces looked on, I would think you too would be radicalized by the experience.

  • padraic

    [i]Moving on does not involve glorifying the actions of members of sectarian death cults.[/i]

    Nobody is asking you to do this. The majority of people on this island do not share your particular interpretation of the Provisional IRA. In fact, most would also find your interpretation and account of this period in history quite offensive. It’s when you make inflammatory statements, based on extreme bias (and, most likely, prejudice) just like this that you leave yourself very open to the accusation that you are incapable of moving on. Why don’t you leave “us lot” to indulge in the glorification of such awful, awful people.

    [i]Can you shed any light on why Robert was in The Maze in the first place, or is that a tad inconvenient when discussing his couragousness.[/i][sic]

    It’s not one bit inconvenient! From memory (I was born long after Sands died) I think that he was imprisoned after the RUC claimed that they found with him with ammunition. I do recall, however, reading that he was tried (through the Diplocks, of course) and acquitted of offences of a much more serious nature. A positivist view of history would save you from further hysterical, impassioned and somewhat offensive outbreaks.

  • Realist

    Thanks fot that padraic…you say it all.

    Now – what about the OC?

    Why was he in The Maze?

  • padraic

    [i]Now – what about the OC?

    Why was he in The Maze?[/i]

    Take a big deep breath, exhale, then let go – you’re only clinging on by our fingertips at this stage. Like I said before, leave to us Catholics to glorify our “sectarian death cults”. Don’t you worry your little head about them. They can’t hurt you now.

  • Realist

    “Take a big deep breath, exhale, then let go – you’re only clinging on by our fingertips at this stage. Like I said before, leave to us Catholics to glorify our “sectarian death cults”. Don’t you worry your little head about them. They can’t hurt you now”

    No, honestly, I’m just fine padraic!

    Like I say, I really, really, don’t care where you say your prayers.

    Yesterday’s fredom fighters, today’s traitors.

    Republican “history” never changes.

  • Dave

    “If you had seen your family burned out your home by sectarian mob as state security forces looked on, I would think you too would be radicalized by the experience.”

    Fortunately, violent psychopaths such as Mr Sands formed a tiny minority (less than 1%) of the citizens of Northern Ireland. Most people who experienced suffering did not decide that their own experiences justified inflicting suffering on others. In fact, most people who experienced suffering would never wish to inflict it on others. Psychopaths, of course, are wired differently.

    By the way, I wonder what Mr sands would think about the Shinners implementing Thatcher’s policy of criminalisation that he protested against? I’m sure that, had he lived, he’d be thankful that he wasn’t dumb enough to starve himself to death so that Gerry and Martin could have well-paid jobs and nice pensions as Her Majesty’s civil servants.

  • padraic

    [i]Yesterday’s fredom fighters, today’s traitors.

    Republican “history” never changes[/i]

    What a pathetic attempt to move the goalposts when your petty little myopic argument collapses! Sadly for you I don’t think you’ll find nobody on this forum willing to bite your measly bait.

  • padraic

    pardon me, that should have read “I don’t think you’ll find anybody..”

  • Realist

    “What a pathetic attempt to move the goalposts when your petty little myopic argument collapses! Sadly for you I don’t think you’ll find nobody on this forum willing to bite your measly bait”

    Except you, perhaps! 😉

    Good night padraic….you do irony very well.

  • padraic

    Once again, of course, you’ve outsmarted me and have proven yourself to be intellectually superior to every Provo sympathiser who dares engage you in battle 😉

    Biting the bait would be directly engaging with the content of your latest outburst. Very sadly for you, it would seem, I did no such thing. I merely highlighted your attempt to encourage someone to participate in another round of name-calling and Taig-bashing.

    No doubt you’re off to dream about the heady days of Carson and Craigavon… good times.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Kieron,

    re. Police Bill – if it was not important then why was it recently amended?

    Jesus. Details are not your thing are they ? It is not a “police bill”, very little of the bill deals with the police. And who said it was not important ? You made that part up. It’s a necessary prerequisite for there to be devolved policing and justice powers.

    It is important in that it is a requirement. But it’s just not interesting. There is nothing in the legislation that was passed to talk about. It changes the law so that the powers can be devolved. It’s fantastically boring, with the possible exception of the part where it is confirmed that the assembly will appoint the justice minister directly (ie not via d’Hondt). I don’t understand why you want to have a thread about it. It’s just enabling legislation.

    What will be interesting, and certainly not boring, is the extensive legislation that will be required to map out the new justice ministry and the mechanics of all that. That does not exist yet, which makes sense because the details of devolved justice powers haven’t been announced in public yet. You seem to be under the misconception that this is what was passed in Westminster, which isn’t surprising as you do have a penchant for self-delusion. This can all easily be cleared up by actually reading the legislation.

    What’s the amendment you’re talking about ?

  • Realist

    padraic,

    Not sharing your views, does not make me “myopic”.

    I base my views on lifetime experiences.

    Your hissy fit when someone disagrees with your views, says more about your myopia than mine.

    If you want to discuss our respective views, I’ll be very fair with you.

    In fact, I’ll allow YOU to dictate the “terms of engagement” in any discussion you wish to have with me.

    You state the rules, I’ll play by YOUR rules.

    Fair enough?

  • 6countyprod

    I’m sure some of you guys would be interested in this link,

    ‘Did five, or even six, of the republican prisoners who were on hunger strike in the Maze prison in 1981 die to advance the political strategy of Sinn Fein?

  • politico

    “When Jimbo has to hold Tupperware parties to raise funds for his campaign you know he is struggling.”

    Disagree

    When he starts holding Ann Summers parties then you know he is struggling.

  • Peter Fyfe

    6countyprod

    Evidence for what? You are already making a case for your point of view.

    Do you know what evidence is? It is what the scientific process is based on. Anti-intellectual was not an insult btw, I was pointing at how you seem to have a problem with history based on evidence from the time. Intellectual thinking would usually test any hypothesis by the evidence available. You do seem to have a problem with this or allowing people the chance to do this. In post five above you clearly avoid reason and that is why you are a bigot son. It is rather funny though that you took anti-intellectual as an insult. Given that if you had just understood my arguement you would have knew what i meant.

  • 6countyprod

    Do you mean, ‘…if you had just understood my [arguement] argument you would have [knew] known what I meant’?

  • Peter Fyfe

    Reader

    You asked me what the hungerstrikes meant to me. I will try to be honest even though I use my own name and some of it will not be liked.

    Growing up, I saw them as heroes I had learned songs of Joe McDonnell, Bobby Sands and the other eight. I saw Sands as the follow on from Tone and Pearse. I saw Maggie Thatcher as a bitch. May I point out this was all still at school and probably followed the Sinn Fein version. I supported sinn fein then and nearly joined them in my home town. I decided against it as politics progressed and I lost a lot of faith in the ideas sinn fein told us. Their opposition to the EU, I could not reconcile myself with. There it is, my disagreement with sinn fein comes from their policies and not from the fact they were the IRA. People will not be impressed with this. After this I would say I started to question my support for violence as a valid tool for change. This was when I was about 19 and at univerity and since sinn fein has been the majority party in the nationalsit community. Maybe I like the underdog.

    From there you will deduce I was only about second or third year when the good friday agreement was signed so I never considered the choice between violence and politics in my choice of the way forward. All I can therefore do is look at History and think what would I have done? I am certainly not a pacifist and believe when a state fails and democracy can not protect the rights of people it is there to serve, violence against that state is a legitimate tool. I must stress that I believe all avenues of the democratic process must be exhaiusted beforehand. I am in no doubt that stormont failed too many of the people of Northern Ireland. If I had lived through the late sixties and early seventies, if I had saw the burning of Bombay street by forces of the state, if I had saw murder on Derry streets by British paratroopers or or if I had knew somebody who was locked up because of outdated or flimsy intelligence I think I may have saw violence against the state as legitimate. I think that is why I still respect the names of Sands and the other nine. I know awful things happened during the troubles and by no stretch do I think all the actions of the IRA were justified but I do see some actions as understandable from a certain perspective in a broken country. Therefore I will not sit and condemn anybody from Northern Ireland for what happened during the troubles as I can only look at what I might have thought at the time. From this I would then go on to suggest that there were special circumstances in Northern Ireland and as a result to label the prisoners as common criminals was wrong and very stupid by the british government. This was a time when the government still seemed to have no qualms with what their soldiers had done in Derry. I see no reason why a nationalist would have any faith in a state like this. I am not here to place blame for the troubles however.I would say from many of my posts I argue how the executive should now work for the people of Northern Ireland, I am firmly of the belief people voted for the GFA therefore we must accept this framework for government. I would much rather concentrate on getting it working than debate who was at fault 30 years ago as all I can see is that there were many failures by many players.

    I don’t doubt Gerry adams pushed the political project once he realised their was support out there, that’s why I consider it pivotal to Northern Ireland and the fact it was one of the most deadly periods in the history of Northern Ireland shows it is worth serious consideration when examining history. I note your disagreements about what republicans say the hungerstrikes meant to them. I would say it would be interestinbg if all ten were still alive, would they all agree on the future of Ireland? I doubt it therefore I don’t pay attention to cries of,’Bobby would be rolling in his grave.’

    From writing this post I realise where my sources of information on our History come from, many have been looked at through green tinted glasses and many times the source of evidnece is what I was fed by people with and an even darker green tint. That is my main arguement for a museum, our history must be studied in a neutral manner and this neutral manner must be defended to the hill. We must allow people to learn from our mistakes and a museum seems to be quite a tool for studying the past.

  • Peter Fyfe

    That is what I meant 6countyprod, good to see you now know why you are a bigot and can not present any valid case against a museum.

  • 6countyprod

    Hey, Peter, good post! No. 17, that is; not too keen on 18 though. I suppose I am borderline! 😉

    Cheers, mate! You behave yourself now.

  • Peter Fyfe

    6countryprod

    Have not been on in a few days, thank you for the compliment. I was aiming at being honest, hope you get where I come from. Maybe 18 was over the top ;-). We will talk again, I am sure.

  • Turgon

    Peter Fyfe,
    “Therefore I will not sit and condemn anybody from Northern Ireland for what happened during the troubles as I can only look at what I might have thought at the time.”

    If that is true that is an utterly pathetic argument.
    So you do not condemn Lenny Murphy’s actions? Indeed your logic dictates that you do not condemn Bombay Street or Bloody Sunday.

    Maybe you should realise that there were those in Northern Ireland who committed evil crimes against their fellow citizens and they richly deserve condemnation.