“Gerry Adams does not have a monopoly on the theology of republicanism.”

There was an interesting clash between Máirtín Ó Muilleoir and Kevin Toolis on Monday’s Talkback with Máirtín denying he was putting forward the Sinn Féin point of view on those other republican paramilitaries. As Máirtín repeated at CommentisFree, that point of view could be paraphrased as – don’t mention the ‘R’ word. And no wonder. There’s a harsh reality here for Sinn Féin to face, as Eamonn McCann points out in the Daily Mail

The working-class anger that gave rise to the emergence of the Provos as a major player in the 1970s did not represent a new flowering of Republican ideas, a long-repressed tradition suddenly gushing forth again through the cracks caused by the seismic impact of the 1960s civil rights movement. It would be truer to say that the tiny Republican movement of the time, embodied in Belfast in a few families, including the Adamses, provided an organisational framework, a channel for expression and a readiness to fight that matched the sudden mood of the Catholic masses and offered a ready-made ideology to lend their travails an historical resonance at a time when their communities were under siege by loyalist mobs, the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the British Army.
Adams and his associates have gradually, surreptitiously, denying at every stage that they were embarked on any such enterprise, sloughed off this Republican tradition and bargained the war conducted in its name for advancement for themselves and their community in the here-and-now. But the core idea which they espoused was elevated in the course of their struggle, and, as Saturday night’s killings illustrate, it hasn’t gone away.

Kevin Toolis, writing today in the Times

But Ireland is no more united than it was in 1922. And Sinn Féin, sunk into insignificance in the last elections in the South, is unable to articulate how the current Stormont settlement leads to a united Ireland and something more than jobs for Mr Adams’s boys.

In West Belfast, the republican heartland, his political machine is slick, suffocating, thuggish and ready to isolate all those within the “republican family” who question the long betrayal. No one is immune from the leader’s wrath if they dissent and ask – what was all the sacrifice of the 1970s and 1980s for? Did Bobby Sands starve himself to death so that Martin McGuinness, a legendary IRA man, could become a minister of the British Crown in Ireland?

Even Brendan “the dark” Hughes, Mr Adams’s old Long Kesh cellmate, was cast out into the wilderness. “I would have taken a bullet for Gerry Adams but perhaps I should have put a bullet in him,” said Hughes despairingly.

By their latest killings, the republican dissidents are reminding us all that Gerry Adams does not have a monopoly on the theology of republicanism. They intend to go on with the killing until they are stopped. Like the poor, Ireland’s Troubles are always with us.

The Irish Times, which also has a couple of excellent background articles, has a blunt, related, editorial today

Above all, though, there is the challenge of ridding Irish culture of the last vestiges of the sneaking regard for their crude ideology and the murderous methods that flow from it. A part of the price that has been paid for the peace process, and for bringing paramilitary killers in from the cold, has been a reluctance to challenge too strongly the notion that violence was ultimately vindicated. We must acknowledge that paramilitarism achieved nothing for the Irish people over 30 years except blood and tears. It was, and is, a dead end. Those who would revive it must be treated by everyone, of every political persuasion, for what they are: the enemies of democracy, decency and Ireland.

That’s another legacy issue that’s been ignored so far..

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  • picador

    What a lot of these smart-arsed commentators who cover republicanism do not seem to appreciate is that the context has changed.

    Traditionally republicans looked to the 1918 & 1921 elections that produced a SF majority in Ireland as the frustrated acts of self-determination which gave legitimacy to the armed struggle.

    However in 1998 the Irish people, North and South, voted overwhelmingly to give approval to the terms of the Good Friday Agreement / changes to Bunreacht na h-Éireann.

    In doing so the people of Ireland gave de-facto recognition to the fact that Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK until a majority vote otherwise.

    That was voted for by the people of Ireland in 1998. This is absolutely crucial but yet these same smart-arsed commentators continue to ignore it. Why?

    Furthermore Sinn Féin stood in the last Assembly elections on a position of endorsing the PSNI and received a record vote. The SDLP had already endorsed the PSNI. The dissident candidates that stood received derisory votes.

    Martin McGuiness was correct to call these people traitors. They are ignoring the stated will of the Irish people as expressed in the GFA and the amended Bunreacht na h-Éireann.

    1998 is the key date, not 1918 or 1921.

  • picador

    Martin McGuiness was correct to call these people traitors.

    Clarification – he was referring to people who take up arms against the democratically approved settlement, not people who oppose it peaceably.

  • bradán feasa

    I find Pete Baker’s post and many others on Slugger a ‘mix and gatherum’ of anti Sinn Féin comment. The fact that anti Shinners will quote loyalists thugs, ex IRA dissidents, aggrieved Marxists and right wing Tories often in the same paragraph shows a clear lack of coherence in their arguments.

    The authors of these quotes find themselves joining together in Anti Sinn Féin bashing despite the fact that they hate each others politics and due to the fact that they pose no threat to each others status quo. In other words you are my ally as you are ineffectual. Sinn Féin on the other hand are effectual and are brining about change.

    Also is it not amazing that despite the fact that SF has had nothing to do with these killings and that they have gone further than necessary to condemn them most of the critical comment is focused towards SF and not the perpetrators of the killing. Bizarre!!!

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Picador

    Martin McGuiness has gone so far now that there is no way back for him

    Yesterday Martin McGuinness confirmed what has been know since the Mansion House in 1986 when RSF became founded – The man along with Adams have gone down a route that is probably more deluded in Republican terms than that of the Stick in 1974.

    The Commentators are correct to point out the sacrafice made by Volunteers during the conflict.

    Martin McGuinness is no better than Denis Donaldson – they both have colluded with the crown.

    The gangster Army that the provisionals turned into in the 90s through to today have smuggled robbed post offices, beat youth a pulp, carried out the biggest Bank Tiger Heist Bank Robbery in Irish History – What a bunch of scum to call anybody Traitors!

    It is now know that much of the Former Provisional Leadership participate in or cheer on the open manipulation of youth through widespread drug dealing to line their pockets – What a bunch of scum to call anybody Traitors!

    I think Hugh Orr nearly dropped dead yesterday when he stood with his new friend and heard him brand people traitors!

    History will be written and Republican History must align the actions of Martin McGuinness parallel with those of Michael Collins, Eammon De Valera & the likes of Denis Donaldson (who was probably only one of many PSF Touts.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Jeez – how many thread can you have on the same topic?

    Pin-head-ideological-dancing-whilst-concurrently-studying-the-Republican-navel is very interesting I’m sure – but after SF signed up to police a year ago – what is fecking new here?

    …and still no thread on the reckless position of the UU/Tories now aligned with those against GFA/STA if we can assume that Wee Reggie didnt just lose the run of himself in the assembly the other day.

    Rant Alert

    p.s. It seems any uselss academic who cant think of an interesting subject to do his thesis on decides to join the Cascarino-School of Irish Republican studies where their only real knowledge of the topic is based on borrowing a few books from the libary. Bad enough all this political masturbation – but then they proceed to ring up some chum from Oxford who is now working on Radio 4 or Channel whats-its-name to tell them they are availble for an interview and we all have to listen to vague jibber-jabber and Pin-head-ideological-dancing-whilst-concurrently-studying-the-Republican-navel and round we go again….

    Rant Ends

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Rory (South Derry)

    You put in a stlalwart performace last night.

    Firstly,

    apologies if you have already answered this question last night – but do you not feel even a little bit uneasy about dissing the GFA when it has been endorsed by the vast majority of Irish Nationalists? Just a teensy-weensy-bit-of-unease?

    Secondly,

    Apologies if again if I am misquoting you but I think you suggested last night that the South Derry brigade/volunteers had defeated the British in the field of battle. Could you confirm exactly which operations you feel allow you to make that assertion. I am specifcally referring to actual miltitary casualties ( ie members of the British military) inflicted over the 30 or so years of war. It would be preferable if you did not include anyone who was off-duty or retired but actually happened to be carrying a gun at the time of the engagment?

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Sammy McNally

    The GFA is in many ways like the 1921 Treaty – mass acceptance by certain Republicans without having the content or ability to achieve the ultimate goal of a Unified Nation

    We are through the GFA going around the houses on the way to never achieving a United Ireland

    Now in the O’Neill Arms in Toomebridge we were told by the PSF leadership that they were striving for 2016 and I know and more importantly so do they that this was never achievable through the context of the GFA.

    Operations were carried out regularly in South Derry ordered in the main by many of PSF current leaders (or have they forgot) and many like that at Toome Barracks put the Brits well and truely in their place.

    The RUC and UDR were tortured morning noon and night and lived in utter fear

    Excuse my generalisation but I am not Tout and sworn an oath in 1982 which I observe to this day unlike my former comrades in PSF.

  • The Pookah

    Eamonn McCann in the Daily Mail” – does that constitute selling out?

    Rory – grow up lad – your writing suggests you are either very young, or just foolish. Your IP address is more than likely being trawled.

    The problem with all of these ‘high brow pieces ‘,is that they are low on fact and high on speculation.

    Further, why were we not subjected to these gems of socio-cultural wisdom, over the past twelve years. Why has it taken these murders to open up the Pandora’s box of insightful wisdom?

    A number of papers have recently named the current leader of the Real IRA.

    He is by all accounts a county Louth man, presumably steeped in old school republicanism (or at least that school of republicanism that looked over the border and wished to free the enslaved Catholic population). McKevitt and many of the other Real IRA people named with regard to the Oamagh bomb, were from the Louth area as well.

    These were the people left behind at the 97 convention, when the northerners decided that they were capable of resolving the northern problem internally.

    Because of the never ending vow of Omerta, people do not like to name names; so in the main the leading players in the provisionals (real or not) go about their lives quietly.

    The Real IRA are backwoodsmen; their murders opportunist (it took them twelve years to get it right). They lack a coherent strategy, other than the belief that they are the rightful government of Ireland.

    Of course they may be able to exploit poverty and social deprivation, in much the same way that the provos took control of ares like Muirheavnamore in Dundalk, but it would be wrong in the extreme to suugest that they are incapable of unleashing a new prolonged war.

    They have been infiltrated for the past twelve years, and soon the counter surveillence techniques that are employed aginst in the Southt will be admissable in court.

    For an insight into the Real IRA I would suggest that people seek out the transcript to McKevitt’s most recent appeal, which you can find on google.

    One gets the feeling that the likes of McCann and Toolis, flourish most, when there is a little bit of agitation to report. It is to be hoped, that next time, they and other commentators, do some homework.

    Emotion is a dangerous thing, and people are able to make up their own minds best, when presented with all of the facts…a situation that has not pertained in N.Ireland for thirty years.

  • Curious

    Isn’t Claudy in South Derry?
    What a glorious operation that was, bestowing on the brave soldiers of Erin plaudits that will never be forgotten until the end of time.

  • Pookah

    sorry – should have read capable instead of incapable;

    ‘but it would be wrong in the extreme to suugest that they are incapable of unleashing a new prolonged war. ‘

  • Curious

    What’s wrong, Rory? Cat got your tongue?

  • picador

    Cad é mar atá tú, a Ruairí?

    How are those Irish lessons going?

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Curious

    Claudy is North Derry – Operation directly ordered by Martin McGuiness!

    Operation was a mess but that was a sign of the times

  • the theology of republicanism

    Substitute Ireland for Israel and you’ll get the theology of republicanism from the Bible. It is the Old Testament value system underpinned by the rule “an eye for an eye” and dominated by the false god that is Israel.

    Why not come back to Christianity, Rory?

  • picador

    Sure the IRA never carried out the Claudy bombings.

    Yes, it was the South Derry Brigade who carried them out, curious.

    Are you foaming at the mouth again, ‘mo chara’?

    Watch you don’t foam over your lovely DELL computer.

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Picador

    Claudy is 11 miles from Derry City you clown

    Geograph lessons not handed out to provos these days?

    The job was a mess – sin e!

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Rory (South Derry)

    I was aksing you if you were not at least a little bit uneasy at being against the GFA when the vast majority Nationlaists voted in favour of it. The GFA is obviously very different from the Treaty in 1921 and particularly in one respect – the majortiy of Nationalists in Norn Iron did not vote in favour of it – so once again does that not make you at least question your certainty that the GFA is the wrong way to go?

    In relation to PIRA military operations in South Derry – the state of mind of her majestys forces is quite difficult to ascertain – so statements that they “lived in utter fear” although plausible are difficult to substantiate. But what should not be difficult is to state is the number of British military who were killed in action in gun battles in the South Derry area as a result of insurgent activity. I am presuming the number is not zero – so can you say roughly – if it was over 5, over 10 or over 20?

    Please do not include unarmed, off duty or retired soldiers in your numbers. This information is undoubtedly in the public domain would be quite time consuming for a non expert like myself (and unlike you goodself who is clearly proud of the insurgents record )to calculate.

  • picador

    I know where Claudy is. And I am not a Provo.

    You are like a cracked record and a cartoon character rolled into one.

    For anyone unfamiliar with Rory take a look at this thread:

    Rory Mitty’s claims to be an Irish speaker debunked

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Picador

    I offered to speak face to face with you in Irish – your the man running and defending PSF on every single statement you make!

    I am what I am – I HATE SINN FEIN as much if not more than the BRITS (no hiding it)

    I think you might even be a stick or an SDLP has been!!!

  • alan

    Sorry to digress but does anyone know more about what Jon Snow was refering to on C4 News when he asked Orde if one of those being questioned by police was being questioned about both incidents?

  • picador

    I offered to speak face to face with you in Irish – your the man running and defending PSF on every single statement you make!

    LOL

    mo chara mo chara mo chara

    Given that you are borderline psychotic and claim to have access to firearms I think I will be declining.

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Picador

    You are the man talking about guns – it never was stated in any of my respones!

    As for my state of mind confused by you – what are you stick provo or SDLP has been – come on make up your mind a chara

    or

    [play the ball – edited moderator]

  • hartshill

    Picador,
    your use of your knowledge of Gaelic to poke fun at another Irishman causes me to view you as a charachter out of Flann O Briens’s An Béal Bocht; You are a dead ringer for one of those people from Dublin who was more Gaelic than the poor locals who were native speakers. School children would call you a ‘show off’. Mo naire thú, a hóinseach.
    Rory, pass no remarks of the amadán or his amaidighe.

  • west belfast

    just drove up the falls there and someone has been out with a paintbrush removing any sign of dissent

  • picador

    You are the man talking about guns – it never was stated in any of my respones!

    Seeing as you constantly bragging about what a big IRA man you are an’ all …

    What do use to carry out your war … spud guns!?

    It is unpleasant enough encountering you on the Internet.

    [The ball? – edited moderator]

  • hartshill

    Picador
    It appears from posts 21 and 25 that you do online psychiatric analysis. You’re freaking’ brilliant. Take a look at McGuinness. I think he needs some advice on anger management, spluttering about ‘traitors’ and the big red head on him with the eyes staring out fiercely. Never mind Rory, do an analysis of the bogside butcher.

  • hartshill

    Picador,
    if you do look at Marty be care ful cos ‘thon boy ‘d’ (that’s the hamely tongue, ‘oor’ third language) maybe strap you into a yoke and god knows where you’d end up.

  • picador

    hartshill,

    I just hate bullshitters who as part of their ‘staunch’ act pretend to be Irish speakers when they are not and go around saying ‘mo chara’, etc.

    It is pathetic. It also brings the language into disrepute among those who might otherwise be more open to it.

    It was Rory who claimed to be the Irish speaker not me. I was happy to make a fool of him.

    Matter of fact I am only learning myself but sure why would I tell him that.

    I assume you are in sympathy with him because you share his obnoxious, bloody-thirsty views.

    Perhaps you should direct your solidarity towards some other Irish people, namely the family of the policeman who was murdered by Rory’s heroes in Craigavon the other night.

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Picador

    You are a pathetic nationalist who just wants to stand on the sidelines and throw stones

    I can speak fluent Irish but as I said last night I am not dragging my native tongue into a slanging match with you.

    Face to face and you can bring the PSNi to guard you – coward

    The Republican debate away from Sinn Fein has always been belittled by people like you!

    I remember 1986 – sure wasn’t RSF part of MI5 and drivel drivel drivel

    Heard it all before mo chara

    Go away – and shove your dove and let history takes its course!

  • picador

    Rory,

    I am not your friend.

    Your mother tongue is English, same as mine.

    Throwing stones is so 1980s. Some of us have grown up since then.

    And there you go – threatening violence for the umpteenth time. Not surprised to hear you quoting Johnny Adair.

    It seems latent violence is never too far away.

  • Rory Carr

    What with Eamonn McCann writing in the Daily Mail it can surely only be a matter of time before the Rev Ian Paisley has his own column in L’Osservatore Romano or, failing that, Socialist Worker.

    Speaking of which, perhaps it’s time that my namesake from South Derry had his very own page in Viz magazine – he’d be a natural and would fit very nicely along with those other great modern icons, Sid the Sexist and Finbarr Saunders (with his double entendres).

    But apart from all that it is quite correct to say as Picador has that all history of if conflict on this island is now subsumed in the acceptance of the GFA by referendum in the 6-counties, implicitly by acceptance of constitutional change via referendum in the 26 counties and by overwhelming acceptance by the House of Commons. After that, more even than in Yeats’s phrase on 1916, “All has changed, changed utterly”.

    The reaction from all sections of the communities throughout Ireland to the recent events have clearly demonstrated that.

  • hartshill

    Picador
    You presume a lot. What do you know about me or whether I share “…his obnoxious, bloody-thirsty views (that should be blood, not bloody since you are so much into language). You don’t know me or my views. I have sympathy for that family in Banbridge as for any family having lost someone, especially in tragic circumstances, but am not dishonest enough to pretend to be heartbroken about it. I did not know the dead man but know that he was an R.U.C. man before the P.S.N.I. and that according to S.F. the R.U.C. were up to their necks with loyalist murder gangs. That gives me problems, maybe you are comfortable enough with policemen who were heavily involved in collusion.
    Personally, while I do not share Rory’s beliefs in the way forward, I would much prefer his honesty to the kind of ‘new image’ crap emanating from Sinn Féin nowadays and know exactly where he is coming from in terms of the past and in terms of Sinn Féin’s volte-face on all points of principle.

  • “What with Eamonn McCann writing in the Daily Mail”

    Agreed. McCann has certainly become far less radical than he used to be. I’ve encountered him numberless times outside the Richmond Centre in Derry, where he seems to be in perpetual protest. I’ve always been impressed by his dedication. Even though I abhor his political views, I must say that he’s a talented writer and a powerful speaker, but he badly lets himself down anytime when on TV. That he is now seemingly writing for the Daily Mail is strange, but then again Joe Higgins also writes for the southern-Irish edition and Roy Garland writes for the Irish News.

  • picador

    You don’t know me or my views

    That’s why I asked you.

    1998. You can’t wish it away. It happened.

    2006. Nationalists votes overwhelmingly to back the PSNI. This also happened. You can’t wish it away.

    It’s really twisted the way you go from sympathising with the dead policeman’s family to accusing me of being in having no problems with collusion in the space of two sentences.

    I would much prefer his honesty

    You mean hatred and thuggishness.

  • behave picador

    I just hate bullshitters who as part of their ‘staunch’ act pretend to be Irish speakers when they are not and go around saying ‘mo chara’, etc.

    Take your own advice man.

    It is pathetic.

    Yes it is. Stop your handbagging, its boring.

  • picador

    double poster eh. is that you hartshill, mo chara. Smells like you.

    Serious question for dissidents which they seldom address:

    Why do you ignore the results of the 1998 referenda?

    Why do you ignore the electorates endorsement of the PSNI in 2006?

    NOW ANSWER THE QUESTION

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Picador

    Ha ha mo chara – getting some of your own medicine

    Why don’t you go and run the Workers Party – you know you want too!

  • behave picador

    double poster eh.

    catch yer self on picador. quit handbagging ffs. going through what people have said and didn’t say, and analysing them.

    have you too much time on your hands, this is a good thread. why not allow people their say, even if they dissent from the shinners? even dissenters have an opinion.

    you try too hard man, would the shinners crumble if a person has their say.

    leave him to speak, or rant, or whatever.

    defending the shinners like you do is way OTT…

    it’s boring. let people speak ffs.

  • JoeBryce

    I grew up in NI during the troubles but have lived most of my adult life away.

    I grew up on the Unionist side and had a lot of sympathy with people whose story did not seem to be being heard.

    I would like to record that I have felt these last few days that the DFM seems to me to have been speaking for NI.

    He seems to have been speaking for Ireland as a whole.

    I do not feel threatened by him. On the contrary. Despite his past, I feel proud of him.

    My gut feeling is that something big has changed, and that it is the opposite of what the bigots want.

    My deep sympathy to the bereaved. Let there number not be increased.

  • picador

    Are any of you disso wasters ever going to address the substantive issues?

    All you can do is slabber on about how much you hate Sinn Féin, hate the Brits, hate everybody.

    And you say I’m boring!!

    You do not give a damn about the opinions of the people who you aspire to free.

    Why do you ignore the results of the 1998 referenda?

    Why do you ignore the electorates endorsement of the PSNI in 2006?

    ANSWER THE QUESTION

  • quit handbegging picador ffs

    picador you are boring.

    who hates anybody?

    not me.

    You do not give a damn about the opinions of the people who you aspire to free.

    eh? the only poster trying to stifle opinions here is you!! why can you not accept that others will have opinions that differ to yours? you are trying to stifle opinion by filling up space on this thread on issues that were from previous older topics. blathering on about irish speaking and the like.

    ffs give it a rest man. let others speak, rant, and wax. you are over the top in your defence of a political party.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Rory (South Derry)

    I appreciate that many people can feel betrayed and embittered if they are caught on the wrong side of a peace process – but it isnt just Republicans.

    Have you ever considered how Unionists feel when they have obeyed the law all their lives and have seen a family member who is an off duty member of the security forces shot in front of them and then go on to see the organisation that championed that shooting sitting in government? Can you imagine their sense of betrayal from a government in the UK to whom they gave their allegiance?

    I asked you 2 simple questions

    1) Does the fact that the vast majority of Nationalists in the North supported the GFA not make you feel some unease at trying to destroy it.

    2) How many armed military personnel did the insurgents in South Derry kill during the war? This information is the public domain – but not collated to an area like South Derry so it has confidentiality implications.

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Sammy

    (1). No – The GFA was accepted but that does not
    make it right (And for myself and other is
    totally unacceptable)

    (2). 34 I rightly told (RUC, UDR, Brits &
    Colluders)

  • Gregory

    “They are ignoring the stated will of the Irish people as expressed in the GFA and the amended Bunreacht na h-Éireann.”

    Since when has any IRA ( or the IRB for that matter) cared one way or the other about the will of the Irish people?

    Gregory

  • picador

    Person who is stalking me

    Who am I stifling?

    Rory has said his piece.. over and over again .. like a cracked record.

    I invite you once again to stop being puerile and to answer the very valid questions that I posed.

    If you keep stalking me and posting under stupid names I will ask the moderators to intervene.

  • sigh… fed up now……..

    Rory has said his piece.. over and over again .. like a cracked record.

    so? pot – kettle – black.

    If you keep stalking me and posting under stupid names I will ask the moderators to intervene.

    lol – grow up feck sake.

    picador is not a stupid name?

    go and have a lie down. rest. come back tomorrow….

  • picador

    Gregory,

    Good question.

    However, the absence of democratic legitimacy in Northern Ireland from 1920 to 1998 enabled the rise of the Provisional IRA. They were able to plausibly argue that the state had no legitimacy in the eyes of 35% to 40% of the people within it and also amongst those in the Free State who never accepted the Treaty.

    Following on from 1998 it is not possible for republicans to argue that Northern Ireland does not have legitimacy. They are restricted to working for unity by democratic means.

    I think that you are right in that there has always been an element of Irish republicanism which is authoritarian – fascistic even – but that only periodic gross blunders on behalf of the British have turned physical-force republicanism into a popular movement.

    There was always a strong element of this authoritarianism / fascism at the core of the Provos and it has now transferred onto the dissidents.

    Republicanism is a democratic ideology but for historical reasons the Irish version has had a tendency to be conspiratorial, authoritarian and anti-democratic.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Rory SD

    although I dont agree with your views it is refreshing that you at least try to address the issues that are put you.

    how many of the 34 that were shot were actaully carrying weapons at the time and were British Military Personnel – not police?

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Sammy

    The 34 I refer to are right from 1970 and 26 were armed

    Is Picador gonna insist of his futile nasty nonsense all night or is the Administrator gonna take note and put him in his place?

  • picador

    Rory,

    Was that you posting in another guise?

    You have threatened me a number of times over the last couple of nights so is it not a bit rich that you are asking for me to be ‘dealt with’.

    But if you feel the need to tout by all means do so.

    At least you answered one of my questions though!

    That constitutes discussion!

    The GFA was voted for by the people. You think it’s wrong and should be opposed in arms.

    In other words you do not give two hoots about the views of those you wish to ‘liberate’ – namely the Irish people.

    Do you believe in the democratic component of the republican ideal or is your view of republicanism a purely authoritarian one?

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Rory (South Derry)

    Are you excluding police from that total?

    What was the split between UDR and Mainland Soldiers.

    How did you feel about the policy of shooting retired or off duty members of the security forces sometimes in front of their family?

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Listen Picador

    I am not on here under any other guise!

    As for threatening you – your on a computer – not standing in front of me – what you afraid of???

    You call me names and “you are more a raving lunatic than I could ever be”!

    The Simple face is hat I dispise EVERYTHING that PSF do – they have hoodwinked many in their own community and privately many former Provos would tell you that if knew any!

    From now on I only answer sensible questions from you

    There will alway be resistane until the Brits go -that is as sure as the sun in the sky!

    Oíche mhaith

    Go mbeannaí Dia duit a chara

  • “Republicanism is a democratic ideology but for historical reasons the Irish version has had a tendency to be conspiratorial, authoritarian and anti-democratic. ”

    The adoption of the Republican creed by Catholic Nationalists was simply because it was expedient at the time, not because Catholics were theologically disposed towards it. Republicanism in its Hiberno-Catholic conception owes its genesis more to the failure of the Jacobite attempts to regain the Crown than to any passion for revolutionary doctrine. Irish Catholics were rarely ever averse to monarchism. Louis XIV had all the Catholic churches in his kingdom raise funds for Tyrconnell and the exiled Gaelic nobility and gave land to them. The founder of Hennessy Cognac was one such Irishman given land by the King. The Spanish King was similarly kind.

    Republicanism was convenient for most Catholics. Unlike France and Spain where the aristocracy was of the same faith as the peasantry, in Ireland the aristocracy was Protestant, most Catholics consequently felt alienated from them. Add that the bitterness over the land dispossessions, the closure of the monasteries, the harsh proscriptions of “popish” priests and bishops, the use of a different tongue, the perceived theft of churches to a heretical body; all these were naturally imputed to the governing class and made the commoners feel alienated from it. With the failure of Jacobite movement, Republicanism was seen as the most expedient remedy.

  • picador

    Very interesting CO,

    There is this debate about what constitutes ‘true’ republicanism / who are the legitimate inheritors of Pearce, Connolly, etc but what is often defined as ‘true’ republicanism, e.g. complete rejection of the democratic will, is a very warped version of republicanism indeed, which owes more to agrarian secret societies of previous centuries than the ideals of liberté, égalité and fraternité.

  • borderline

    Exactly right CO.

    Republicanism is a shorthand for extreme nationalism in Ireland.

    And as for Pearse and Connolly being republicans! Pearse was a Gaelic Nationalist and Connolly was a socialist.

    Republicanism was a flag of convenience, it still is.

  • CO,

    one of the most important reasons why Irish Catholicism is different – radically different in many ways – than continental Catholicism is its different historical relationship to state power. At its best it has made Irish Catholicism genuinely rooted in the community, committed a real faith rather than form (which could not always be openly expressed), and committed to social justice and the rights of the underdog. (Modern outworking: the Catholic hierarchy in NI, almost uniquely in the world, supporting legal recognition for gay civil unions.)

    At its worst it has made Irish Catholicism suspicious of outside influence, power hungry, conspiratorial and hostile to the state even when it’s an Irish Catholic one. (Modern outworking: Fr. Brendan Smyth.)

    Fascinating observation. Thanks.

    PS – I’m not so sure that you can say in Spain that the peasantry shared the faith of their masters. Rural Spain was massively undersupplied with priests from, as far as one can tell from the historical record, the reconquista; and as rural Spain became riven with class warfare, the Church tended to universally side with the rich. On the eve of the Civil War, only 20% of Spanish Catholics were regular Mass attenders, surely the lowest proportion in the world in the 1930s. Hence much of the Spanish peasantry was only too happy to poke priests’ eyeballs out and impale their skulls on spikes when the Civil War broke out. Not that the Church had did too much to be proud of during the Civil War either.

  • skinbop

    lol Rory Carr – had a good chuckle about the Viz comment – spot on.

    regarding the other one – i didn’t realise they were allowed computers in mental facilities.

  • TAFKABO

    This thread makes me think that it’s long past time we took the handbag out of irish politics.

  • HeadTheBall

    TAF,

    Maybe, but great stuff above from picador, the two sammies, rory carr, catholic observer, et al.

    More power to your elbows, gentlemen,

    As for the other Rory (SD) somebody above (picador?) suggested that he was borderline psychotic. For me, you can scratch “borderline”.

  • Alan – Newtownards

    Rory(South Londonderry)

    I love people like you. Every time I waver and start to think that a United Ireland might not a bad Idea, someone like you comes along and I automatically think… Shove YOUR republic as far up your jaxi as it will go!

    You and the rest of the republican movement which came into force 40 years ago are the main reasons why Unionist’s will always reject a U.I.

    Wise up and accept the will of the majority of your fellow countrymen and women.

  • Alan is correct. The dissidents are doing nothing to advance the cause of a united Ireland. They’ll only cause mass mayhem and repel FDI, making NI even more economically dependent on Britain and hence less likely to ever be able to join a united Ireland. One of the greatest impediments to a united Ireland now is the high level of economic dependence on the (British) civil service. If these dissidents had any cop-on they would engage their energies into creating a buoyant economy so that unification would not be as economically unviable as it currently is. They should also try to disestangle the Irish nationalist movement from its traditional tribal associations and its negative connotations (much like the Tories are endeavouring to do with Unionism) so that nationalism could appeal to a broader electorate. Trying to bomb people into submission will only alienate the people they should be attempting to attract. If they truly believed in the merit of a United Ireland they would not scruple to advance it on that basis.

  • Paul

    Alan, I’m 100% with you. I am a Protestant and a unionist with a very small ‘u’ and have thought that a United Ireland for this generation could be managed.

    However when I read the comments of the noted serial poster on this thread I think; no way, is that the mindset that lurks behind the public face of present-day Republicanism?

    Such people so obsessed with hate and bitterness, so focused on their reading of history would gut the likes of you and I like fish for the “crimes” of our fathers.

    They lead me to think that a united Ireland would be similar to Zimbabwe, so much hope at independence only to disintergrate into hatred and victimisation a few short years later.

    So no thanks, I’ll stick with the UK.