Ó Snodaigh causes international incident?

The statement issued by Sinn Féin TD Aengus Ó Snodaigh does say that he confronted the Israeli Ambassador to Ireland, Zion Evrony, and Fine Gael TD Alan Shatter, the Dáil’s only Jewish TD, at a meeting of the Oireachtas Foreign Affairs Committee to discuss the situation in Gaza and Israel. But it neglects to mention what he actually said – according to the iol report.

..in a remarkable outburst, [Aengus Ó Snodaigh] likened their defence of the invasion to the arguments of Adolf Hitler’s propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels. “Goebbels would have been proud of the twisted logic and half-truths,” he said. Ambassador Evrony branded the remarks despicable and demanded an apology. “What I think overshadows the discussion was this despicable analogy of the deputy of Sinn Féin,” the ambassador said. “I think that… (there is a need) for members here to educate themselves and for this distinguished deputy to apologise.”

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  • J O’Donovan

    Greagoir: Israel is a sectarian state. They go on about MOPE etc but look what they do theremselves. They don’t allow Darfur regugees in, they ban mixed marriages, they hold Lebanese prisoners for decades on end with no habeas corpus, they jail for decades those who expose their weapons of mass destruction projects etc etc.

    They are invaders, who got their lands and houses at the point of a bayonet. They use food. medicine etc as bargaining chips. These barbarians do not belong in a civilised world.

  • Democratic

    “These barbarians do not belong in a civilised world.”
    Some of your postings in the last few days would have some saying the same about you pal….

  • 6countyprod

    Mayoman,

    ”when you deliberately hit civilians not infrequently but in a systematic, widespread attack, that’s defined in the treaty of the International Criminal Court and international humanitarian law as a crime against humanity.”

    Key Word: deliberately

    Hamas do, Israel doesn’t. Simple as that!

  • runciter

    Key Word: deliberately. Hamas do, Israel doesn’t. Simple as that!

    They knew there would be massive civilian casualties when they attacked Gaza. They decided to do it anyway.

    How is this not deliberate?

  • J O’Donovan

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7827293.stm

    A note here on the web war between the Palestinian supporters and the Nazis.

  • Democratic

    No answer to my question Runciter?
    Does your strongly merited and well-intentioned concern over the practice of targetting innocent civilians end with innocent Non-Hamas Palestinians in the Gaza Strip or do those civilians targetted in recent years by Hamas in Israel get a share of your concern and support?

  • Greenflag

    Norwegian doctors are now reporting that civilians in Gaza are being targeted with DIME -Israel’s new anti terrorist /civilian weapon .

    “According to the director of the main hospital in Gaza, the bodies arrive at the hospital with injuries never before seen in Gaza.”

    Why isn’t this being reported in the US press?

    A Portuguese Catholic priest has been interviewed in US publications, but they never carried this kind of quote. Only the international press is carrying the story.

    Some info on DIME

    Dr. Mads Gilbert:

    “The power of the explosion dissipates very quickly and the strength does not travel long, maybe 10 meters, but those humans who are hit by this explosion, this pressure wave, are cut in pieces.”

    “This was first used in Lebanon in 2006, it was used here in Gaza in 2006 and the injuries that we see in Shifa [Hospital] now, many many of them I suspect and we all suspect are the effect of DIME weapons used by the Israelis.”

    “On the long term, these weapons will have a cancer effect on those who survive. They will develop cancer we suspect. There has been very little research on this but some research has been among other places in the United States, which show that these weapons have a high tendency to develop cancer. So they kill and those who survive risk having cancer.”

    “Almost all of the patients we have received have these sever amputations. They seem to have been affected by this kind of weapon. Of course, we have many fragment injuries and burns but those who have got their limbs cut off, constitutes quite a large proportion.”

    DIME is an LCD (“low collateral damage”) weapon developed at the US Air Force Research Laboratory. Publicly, it is slated for initial deployment in 2008.

    DIME is part of the Air Force’s Focused Lethality Munitions (FLM) program, which is expected to “allow” the targeting of “terrorists” wherever they are, even in places “previously off limits to the warfighter.” [40]

    The ideal of FLM is to reliably kill every human within the blast zone—one way or another. It is ‘total war’ on a 50-foot circle, within which deaths are not admitted as collateral, but purchased as insurance.

    Israel’s new weapon “slices” off its victims’ legs, leaving “signs of heat and burns near the point of the amputation”. It’s “as if a saw was used to cut through the bone”, according to Dr. Habas al-Wahid, head of the ER at Gaza’s Shuhada al-Aqsa hospital.

    So this weapon is designed to be a highly targeted anti-personnel weapon. But the way that Israel is using it seems to be anything but targeted. Why didn’t the Israelis use something like this to take out a Hamas leader recently instead of bombing a whole multi-story apartment building?

    Israel is clearly using this weapon indiscriminately and as a terror device. It is being used against children, whereas the whole stated purpose of this type of weapon is to be able to target combatants without injuring surrounding civilians. The benefit for the bloodthirsty Israelis is the horrific type of wounds that this weapon causes. This is the modern equivalent of cutting off your enemies head and placing it on a stake for all to see. Or the Romans use of crucifixion. The intent is to terrorize the population into submission.

    There are pictures at this Italian newspaper site from 2006, showing the type of injuries that are described here. I warn you that the images are truly horrible.

    http://www.rainews24.rai.it/ran24/inchieste/10102006_gaza_foto.asp

    Israel the new pariah State ? Not that it bothers them in the least 🙁

  • Greagoir O Frainclin

    Those images are truly shocking Greenflag.

    BTW, there are Jews who disagree to what is happening to the Palestinian civillians in Gaza.

    Alexi Sayle who is Jewish and very politically minded spoke out against the whole Gaza affair recently at a demonstration in London.

  • runciter

    No answer to my question Runciter?

    If you want to condemn somebody do it yourself.

  • Greenflag

    GOF ,

    ‘there are Jews who disagree to what is happening to the Palestinian civillians in Gaza.’

    I know and lets hope that more of them make their voices heard . The focus however on protests should be against the Israeli State not on jewish people and certainly not on ordinary people going about their business in a shopping mall . That was complete and utter s***e !

    Bcck to the bigger picture no matter which way you look at the issue or whoever started this latest episode in the 60 year war the Israeli response has been ‘savage’. Hamas is not a conceivable threat to Israel in any shape or form . I suspect that the Israelis or their ‘backers ‘ are intent on provoking a regional war involving probably Syria and Lebanon or at the very least destabilising the region for another decade or so 🙁

    Expelling Israeli Ambassadors from western countries and boycotting Israeli goods is fair enough in the circumstances – but attacking or threatening jewish people in shopping malls because of their religion is just criminal behaviour and despicable .

    It does not help the Palestinian people in Gaza quite the contrary it allows the Israelis to drag out the standard accusation of anti semitism agaainst anybody who speaks up or out against Israeli policy in Gaza or Palestine .

  • Mayoman

    6CP: you’re indulging in self-delusion, pure sickening self delusion. Simple as.

  • Key Word: deliberately

    Hamas do, Israel doesn’t. Simple as that!

    Aye right, 6cp, and when the IRA plants a bomb outside a fish shop on the Shankill Road it doesn’t deliberately kill civilians because it only intends to kill loyalist paramilitaries.

  • 6countyprod

    Greenflag,

    http://honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Media_Gives_Platform_to_Radical_Doctor.asp

    Hugh,

    Hamas deliberately targets civilians. Israel deliberately targets Hamas who hid behind women and children. In both cases Hamas are committing war crimes.

  • We’re gonna get the pesky Hamas terrorists, even if we have to go through those women and children to do it.

  • 6countyprod

    BTR

    Watch the brave soldiers of Hamas in action

  • Doesn’t matter. You still can’t go through the women and children to get at them. I know that’s inconvenient, but there ya go. Shit happens.

  • Democratic

    “If you want to condemn somebody do it yourself”
    Yes Runciter – I believe that speaks volumes – no problem at all I won’t be bothering you again – nor listening to your hypocrisy to be honest…..

  • Republic of Connaught

    What I find shocking reading this thread is the inability of people to condemn both aggressors in the conflict. Hamas and the IDF.

    Trying to defend Israel’s butchering of hundreds of innocent women and children, of whatever religion or colour, is truly disgusting.

    To see numerous Unionist posters try to claim Israel is perfectly correct in what it’s doing – killing hundreds of civilians as collateral damage – is a terrible and frightful indictment of Unionist’s brainwashed mentality of absolute rights and absolute wrongs.

    Conversely, anyone who thinks Hamas is made of courageous and moral freedom fighters is profoundly ignorant of middle east politics.

  • Democratic

    As a Unionist R.O.C. I condemn the targetting of ANY and ALL civilians in the Israel/Palestine conflict – always have – always will – you will find others that won’t and they sure aren’t all Unionists…..

  • runciter

    I won’t be bothering you again – nor listening to your hypocrisy to be honest

    I’m here to discuss facts not issue condemnations.

    Frankly, your fascination with condemning Hamas (who, according to the UN, did their best to prevent this massacre and who are responsible for less than 1% of the casualties) is bizarre.

  • runciter

    I condemn the targetting of ANY and ALL civilians in the Israel/Palestine conflict

    Why just the Israel/Palestine conflict?

    What about the targeting of civilians by Allied forces in WWII?

  • Democratic

    Keep bouncing about with the goal posts Runciter -it’s a good look….
    I asked you if you condemn the targetting of ANY and ALL civilian targets in the Palestine/Israel conflict – the answer is evidently no – but watching you squirm and wriggle while trying to regain your moral superiority is amusing.
    And if it helps you out yes I condemn deliberate targetting of civilians in ANY conflict/war and yes that certainly encompasses the Israeli’s responsible for the vast majority of civilian deaths in recent days.

  • runciter

    you squirm and wriggle while trying to regain your moral superiority

    I claim no moral superiority Democratic. Sorry if I gave that impression.

    I prefer to discuss facts and leave moral judgements to others.

  • Democratic

    “I prefer to discuss facts and leave moral judgements to others.”
    With respect Runciter your interests in this topic seem to go much further and are more partisan then being a simple courier of fact and figures.
    To Hugh Green – my purpose in asking the “do you condemn the targeting of civilians” was for my own interest in many posters coming down on what they claim are pro-peace / anti-war – the truth in many cases I am suspecting is that they are really pro-Hamas rather than anti-war – I am finding some merit in this opinion I feel.
    I myself am truly anti-war in the real sense are you? I found myself leaving the “anti-war” gathering in Belfast last weekend for these very reasons.

  • runciter

    With respect Runciter your interests in this topic seem to go much further and are more partisan then being a simple courier of fact and figures.

    When did I say I was these things?

    many posters coming down on what they claim are pro-peace / anti-war

    When did I say this?

    Why do you insist on putting words in other people’s mouths?

    I myself am truly anti-war

    That’s a big claim to make.

  • Democratic,

    I don’t see how opposition to attacks on civilians in the current conflict is sufficient to identify whether or not someone is ‘pro-peace’/’anti-war’.

    I too oppose all attacks on civilians.

    I also support the Palestinian people’s right to resist military occupation, and they are entitled to use force of arms to do so if they choose.

    It’s not up to me to tell them how they ought to organise this. If Hamas or any other group is targeting civilians, then yes, it’s a war crime, but I do not have the right to say that Hamas or any other group should not be resisting Israeli military incursions into Gaza, or the West Bank for that matter. That is for the Palestinians to decide. Whether that marks me out as ‘pro-Hamas’ or not ‘truly anti-war’ in your book, I am not too sure.

    Opposition to attacks on civilians would also entail opposition to the consequences for the victims that ensue from such attacks. So one would also have to be opposed to the fact of Palestinian refugees in the Gaza strip, since it was through attacks on civilians that they were ended up there in the first place. Also, to what extent is it permissible to use force to prevent them to returning to the land from which they were expelled? Is it only the occasional sustained use of artillery fire you oppose, or also the continued threat of it, and more varied and violent means?

    What is the position of a ‘truly anti-war’ person like yourself on these matters?

  • Greenflag

    The Score to date and prior to today’s assault by Israeli forces on the United Nations compound in Gaza

    Palestinian dead -1010 (50% women and childen )
    Israeli dead -13
    Percentages
    Palestinian 98.7%
    Israeli 1.3%

    Anyway this timely ‘war’ helps to keep Israeli minds away from the ‘other ‘ news as Bloomberg radio reports excerpt here below

    ‘Israeli pension funds helped diamond mogul Lev Leviev snap up Manhattan real estate, including the former New York Times building, in 2007. Now they’re sharing in his losses as property prices plunge, dragging down the value of corporate bonds that backed the deals.

    Fellow billionaire Yitzhak Tshuva has the same problem after the foray by his Delek Real Estate Ltd. into British property and roadside restaurants helped force its bonds down 73 percent. Pension funds and individual investors lost about 20 billion shekels ($5.1 billion), or a quarter of what they had invested in corporate bonds, as yields fell in the four months to November.

    Now, under threat of a strike by Israel’s biggest union over pension losses, the government is proposing a bailout to help close the savings gap for people near retirement age. Concern that some companies could be wiped out helped drag the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange TA-25 Index down 44 percent in the past year.

    “These real estate tycoons imported the global financial crisis to Israel,” said Gill Beeri, managing director of Ramat Gan, Israel-based Ayalon Financial Solutions Ltd. Its Smadar fund lost 14.1 percent in the first 11 months of last year. “There’s increased concern that these companies may default.”

    Israel is the latest country to suffer from the collapse of the U.S. subprime mortgage market, which led to an economic crisis in Iceland, currency devaluations in Russia and street protests in Greece and Kuwait. There may be more fallout as the economies of the U.S., Japan and the countries of the European Union contract in 2009. ‘

    IIRC Maggie Thatcher ‘indulged ‘ in a nice little fracas in the South Atlantic when 4 million Brits were pushed on to the unemployment lines .

    Morality ? A nice word . But I would’nt bet on it winning any races .

  • Democratic

    To Runciter: your MORAL opposition to the Israeli military tactics is plain to see no? – do you deny this? With respect again I was not solely picking on you in my previous “anti-war” post – and no you did not say you were not pro-Hamas or anti-war – obviously though you are no neutral.
    I apologise if I had in any way misrepresented you and feel free to set me straight on your position – however to be fair your failure to condemn the practice of ANY civilian targetting in the Israal/Hamas/Palestine conflict speaks volumes in my opinion of the nature of your partisanship.
    To Hugh Green: “It’s not up to me to tell them how they ought to organise this. If Hamas or any other group is targeting civilians, then yes, it’s a war crime…” At last someone willing to state the obvious!
    You say you are not sure if you are anti-war or pro-Hamas – with respect I find this difficult to believe when the difference is clear to me – you certainly are no pacifist that much is clear.
    But really your opening line was all I was looking for – a condemnation of the obvious in line with the equivalent moral stance as being taken with the Israelis – why is this like pulling teeth for so many….

  • You say you are not sure if you are anti-war or pro-Hamas – with respect I find this difficult to believe when the difference is clear to me – you certainly are no pacifist that much is clear.

    I didn’t see the two in binary opposition, and I was considering the question in your terms, not my own. Not a pacifist, but anti-war, of course.

  • runciter

    the nature of your partisanship

    is unimportant as long as we stick to relevant, well-referenced facts and rational debate.

  • 6cp

    Looks like the UN school in Gaza was being very well run before those nasty Israelis came along.

  • Democratic

    “is unimportant as long as we stick to relevant, well-referenced facts and rational debate.”
    Fair enough I suppose – as long as spades aren’t going under any pseudonyms in future debate…

  • J O’Donovan

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0115/mideast.html

    Israeli criminals again attack UN, just like they did around the time of the King David atrocity and just as they shelled Irish UN posts in South Lebanon. And the Orange dogs froth at the mouth when people protest against these serial killers.

  • Democratic

    Back under your bridge Shreck – I hear there’s lifestock for you to frighten…

  • George

    Kieran J,
    The Jews have no love for Ireland.

    Nathan was in charge of Dublin Castle when the rebellion broke out in April 1916 and Mandelson was the anti-Catholic Brit in control of the six counties during the early days of the troubles there.

    Both wanted to crush the Irish people.

    And De Valera hid from the Crown Forces in the home of the Chief Rabbi during the Irish War of Independence. How does that fit in with your thesis?

    Or are you only interested in facts that fit your own prejudices?

  • darth rumsfeld

    “The Score to date and prior to today’s assault by Israeli forces on the United Nations compound in Gaza

    Palestinian dead -1010 (50% women and childen )
    Israeli dead -13
    Percentages
    Palestinian 98.7%
    Israeli 1.3%”

    figures don’t lie. (Unless you’re bob mcgowan of course)But it does seem strange that they would be expected to be equal, or almost equal. If the israeli total were 1009 would that make it somehow better?
    In any war one side’s going to suffer heavier casualties. And while we know how many of the Israelis were combatants (9), we have no idea how many of the Palestinians were Hamas members.

    There is another figure worth mentioning
    5000
    the number of rockets sent into Israel in recent times-entirely indiscriminately. As a human being you will appreciate how fortunate it is that there has not been a greater civilian death toll. But if the Israelis are morally open to criticism for indiscriminate bombing that kills lots of people then surely so are Hamas?

  • runciter

    In any war one side’s going to suffer heavier casualties.

    Is it normal for casualty figures to be so disproportionate – ie, approximately 100:1?

    Isn’t such a massively one-sided ‘conflict’ normally referred to as a ‘massacre’ or ‘slaughter’ rather than a ‘war’?

    we have no idea how many of the Palestinians were Hamas members.

    That is not strictly true. Since approximately 40% of those casualties were women and children, we can say that it is likely that most of the Palestinian victims are civilians.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/15/human-rights-gaza-israel

    There is another figure worth mentioning 5000 the number of rockets sent into Israel in recent times-entirely indiscriminately

    How do you know they were sent ‘indiscriminately’?

    But if the Israelis are morally open to criticism for indiscriminate bombing that kills lots of people then surely so are Hamas?

    Hamas does not ‘kill lots of people’ compared to Israel. In fact they kill a tiny fraction of the number of people that Israel kills – yet they are condemned much more by those in power.

    Why is that?

  • 6cp

    So now we have the Hamas leaders, the ones who ran away and are in hiding in neighbouring countries, wanting to continue the conflict with the Israelis just in case Iran and Syria stop giving them money. What a despicable and callous lot they Hamas are. They don’t give 2d for the safety of the Palestinian people.

  • “And De Valera hid from the Crown Forces in the home of the Chief Rabbi during the Irish War of Independence. How does that fit in with your thesis?”

    George,

    Normally I would have said game set and match to you, but that individual has been asked to put a sock in his anti-Semitic remarks but he refuses. I am beginning to wonder if he might not be a Zionist provocateur. After all in politics the first question to be asked is who gains; and as far as his antics are concerned it is not the Palestinian people.

  • Greenflag

    ‘If the israeli total were 1009 would that make it somehow better? ‘

    No . But it would look less like the massacre it is . Killing up to 500 defenceless women and children is not the way to go .

    ‘If the Israelis are morally open to criticism for indiscriminate bombing that kills lots of people then surely so are Hamas’

    No if’s they are no question. As for Hamas what does it say about them if they fire 5,000 rockets and manage to kill how many Israelis in the past several years ? 10 ? 20 ? I genuinely don’t know but I’m certain it’ll be a fraction of what the Israelis have culled .

    As for criticism of Hamas ? I never stated they were or should be immune from criticism . Firing rockets into another country’s back yard is not going to win friends or influence world opinion . But then when people have nothing left to lose erratic behaviour is to be expected.

  • J O’Donovan

    “Firing rockets into another country’s back yard is not going to win friends or influence world opinion . But then when people have nothing left to lose erratic behaviour is to be expected. ”

    They are firing the rockets into occupided and stolen territory at people who have no moral scruples whatsoever. Condemning Hamas is like condemning the Polish sniper who shot at a 1939 German peace keeping patrol when Hitler was in the area. Of course, the Poles fought Hitler, not like others.

  • Ric Flair

    But woo! The Protestants WOO! of Belfast WOOO! had no trouble WOO! with the Orange Order WOOO! Pogroms in the Shipyards WOOO! proving how they WOO! can live in the first world WOOO! unlike nordies WOOO!
    nt